Maintenance for the week of April 6:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – April 6

The lack of quality in combat is driving players away from ESO

Pr0Skygon
Pr0Skygon
✭✭✭✭✭
I've made many many threads about this topic, but I'm not gonna give up that easy till I have a proper answer.

Real story, I told my friends to buy ESO so we can have an mmo to play with each others (which they all wanted to try out anyway), but then they quickly left the game, just because of how unpolished the combat felt.

Let's be honest, ESO's combat animation and sound design are... fine, just "fine". I can't say that it's bad while comparing it to many other tittles (WOW, FF14, ...), but at the same time, for an action rpg bearing the name "Elder Scrolls", they aren't satisfying at all.

If you're a veteran players, this might not bother you at all, since you've already been hooked by the game, or have grown custom to these wonky animation. But to people who's new to the game, or want an actual action-packed experience, it's just jarring how weightless and sometimes out right disappointing how combat is presented.

Seriously, you know that you're doing something wrong when there's an article on mmorpg.com criticizes your core gameplay (aka combat)
http://www.mmorpg.com/mobile/features.cfm?read=11358&game=821&ismb=1
And if you think that combat is actually not that important, then there's a whole article talking about how Black Desert Online, a very grinding-focused game with many issues but is still praised to the sky just for its combat.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2016-03-17-black-desert-onlines-combat-feels-like-a-revolution-for-mmos
And if you still think that ESO's combat isn't that bad, then please look at ESO Steam reviews. There're tons of review about how players quit the game, just because of its wonky, floaty and "mediocre" combat (we all know that "mediocre" part ain't true). Just get to Steam, go to Elder Scrolls Online, filter the negative reviews, and you'll find a tons of complaints about combat (also some other whiny subject).

Before we go in depth to the ugly side of thing, let me get 1 thing straight: There are, of course, some very well made animation and sound design for weapons and skills. My favorite skill of all has got to be "Upper cut" from 2H weapons skill line. It feels super powerful and impactful. Of course thing could be a little better, for example, adding a trail of smoke and rocks being flipped into the air.

Ok, on to the ugly part:

1. Most duel wield and 1H&shield skills look straight up terrible. The skill "puncture" should be named "gently porking". I mean look at this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtDKQwiKcGU
I know that it's a little bit better now, but that's the point, that "little bit better" is almost non present. It feels like the weapons have no weight, and so player just use as minimum effort as he/she can to "gently pork" the victim. I mean look at this
bloodborne_backstab.0.gif
Now that's how you do it right. It feels so satisfying just by looking at it (the gore isn't really needed, but it sure added the sense of power).

2. The base animation design for some skill is just boring and sometimes lazy. I can totally see how "puncture" is a good premise for a skill (you just need to execute it right), but "Low slash"? More like "gently hit someone's knee" (Skyrim's meme not intended). And "Force Shock"? It basically is a beam. That's it, a beam, a light beam, totally boring.

3. Most of the time, the actions don't even connect from the caster to the victim, or to put it in another way, the actions do no impact. You "Puncture" someone, but that person doesn't bleed. You "Force Shock" someone, but he/she looks totally fine, no wounds, no special effect, no splash, no nothing.

4. There're many times when you deal damage to enemies just by hitting the air, literally. I know this might be the result of some hitbox mistakes, but please fix it ZOS, it looks really hilarious.

5. There are some ultimates that feel straight up disappointing to use, such as Radial Sweep and Death Stroke. I'll never forget the reaction of my friend on his first time using Radial Sweep, and he was like "That's it? Are you [snip] kidding me?". These skills suffer the same problems mentioned above: they don't impact the victim, they look pretty lame and cheap. I mean look at Nova, now that's an ultimate (though I think it can have a better entrance animation). Please ZOS, make the ultimate skills feel like actual ultimate, not "slashing someone with 2 blades".

6. Same problems present right on the basic weapons, especially 1H weapons. They all have longer attack range than their actual look, so most of the time you'll just kill enemies by slashing the air. The weapons itself has no sense of weight, the swing feels super weak, and so the impact looks so bland (I do notice some blood, that's good but not enough). Also, the sound design makes me feel like I'm swinging a butter knife, not a fearsome weapon.

Some of you guys after reading this will probably think: "Wait, we'll do animation cancel anyway, so why the hell should ZOS waste time on this?". Well here's the thing: It's not like you can cancel 100% of the animation, most of the time you can only cancel the light and heavy attack animation, you can actually cancel the whole skill animation with bashing or weapon swap, but hey, you don't even do it 100% of the time, not even 80%. Also, an animation overhaul is an unavoidable process. ESO is already 3 years old, if this idea would ever go live, it would be at least 2018, meaning ESO will turn 4 years old. Do you really want to play a 4 years old quality game? When newer entries of the genre are coming out with strong first combat impression (Black desert online, Revelation Online, ....).

And the most important thing: We're playing an Elder Scrolls game, a triple A game, we paid 60$ (most of us) or even more for this game, so why do we have to put up with such an outdated system? Just patting yourself on the shoulder and say "It's alright, this is fine, the game is fine, we just need more content, and please balance the game (like that would ever happen)". Instead, demand more, want more, want more better things, want much more better things. Combat is 1 of the core gameplay mechanic of ESO and it should be treated with more love than now.

And to you ZOS, @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_RichLambert please don't hold back ESO from its full potential just because of 1 unpolished aspect
Edited by ZOS_KatP on February 24, 2018 8:20PM
  • max_only
    max_only
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    K
    #FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
    #OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks
    || CP 1000+ || PC/NA || GUILDS: LWH; IA; CH; XA
    ""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom
  • Kalante
    Kalante
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    im a vet and "hooked" is not what i feel. More like dwindling after each patch. I only play eso once a week and that's because i want to pvp but then i leave in an hour because of how horrible it is. That's just me and tons of others.
    Edited by Kalante on August 12, 2017 6:15PM
  • Pr0Skygon
    Pr0Skygon
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Kalante Maybe "invested"???
  • AlMcFly
    AlMcFly
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    This is what happens when new people arrive at ESO and expect Dark Souls.

    You gave your soul to the church of Dark Souls, now you unjustifiably expect Dark Souls to follow you into every new game you play.
    Edited by AlMcFly on August 12, 2017 6:16PM
  • Vipstaakki
    Vipstaakki
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    No matter how many threads you make you will still receive nothing. All you manage is to make yourself look like a stubborn fool.
  • starkerealm
    starkerealm
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Pr0Skygon wrote: »
    I mean look at this
    bloodborne_backstab.0.gif
    Now that's how you do it right.

    Yes, the most important part is to elongate your fingers right before forcibly inserting them in the new *** cavity you have just created with your pistol.

    EDIT: Never change, ZOS. The word filter is ****ing hilarious sometimes.

    EDIT2: Also, very important, make sure your primary weapon suddenly vanishes while performing impromptu organ removal with your finger claws.
    Edited by starkerealm on August 12, 2017 6:16PM
  • AhPook_Is_Here
    AhPook_Is_Here
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Some people like a combat system built around angry circles on the ground. I like the shiny disco lights of ESO combat, it's like being in a casino in vegas except you don't lose real money.
    “Whatever.”
    -Unknown American
  • starkerealm
    starkerealm
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Some people like a combat system built around angry circles on the ground. I like the shiny disco lights of ESO combat, it's like being in a casino in vegas except you don't lose real money.

    You're also less likely to be accosted by the ghost of Hunter S. Thompson.
  • AlMcFly
    AlMcFly
    ✭✭✭✭✭

    EDIT: Never change, ZOS. The word filter is ****ing hilarious sometimes.

    Lol. Mature rated game with a forum that censors cusswords and unpopular names of historical despots. Makes sense. /s
  • starkerealm
    starkerealm
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    In fairness to you, I do really like Bloodborne. And the Souls games in general. But, at the same time, those are a very different genre of game, and not the kind of title you can build an MMO off of. You only need to see PvP in those games to understand why you wouldn't want that in an MMO.
  • Sigtric
    Sigtric
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Opinions are like...

    Stormproof: Vibeke - 50 EP mDragonknight | Savi Dreloth - 50 EP Magsorc | Sadi Dreloth - 50 EP Magblade | Sigtric Stormaxe - 50 EP Stamsorc | Valora Dreloth - 50 EP Magplar | Sigtric the Unbearable 50 EP Stam Warden
    Scrub: Chews-on-Beavers - 50 EP DK Tank | Vera the Wild - 50 EP magicka Warden | Sigtric the Axe - 50 EP Dragonknight Crafter | Sigtric the Blade - 50 EP Lost Nightblade | Sigtric the Savage - 50 EP magicka Templar | Vibeka Shadowblade - 50 Ep Stealthy Ganky Nightblade |

    Show Me Your Dunmer
    [/center]
  • starkerealm
    starkerealm
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    AlMcFly wrote: »

    EDIT: Never change, ZOS. The word filter is ****ing hilarious sometimes.

    Lol. Mature rated game with a forum that censors cusswords and unpopular names of historical despots. Makes sense. /s

    In this case, technical biological terminology. I was kinda surprised, and very amused, because it makes me look way more foul mouthed than I actually am.
  • starkerealm
    starkerealm
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sigtric wrote: »
    Opinions are like...

    ...backstabs in Bloodborne. They take way too long to wind up, and everyone gets stained in filth by the time you've finished.
  • Pr0Skygon
    Pr0Skygon
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @AlMcFly I do not believe ESO needs the level of polish like Dark Souls, yet when you look at newer mmorpg, such as Black Desert Online (it was actually first came out in Korean in 2014, so it's basically came out the same time as ESO), and can see how ESO is falling behind on this front.
  • AlMcFly
    AlMcFly
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sigtric wrote: »
    Opinions are like...

    ...backstabs in Bloodborne. They take way too long to wind up, and everyone gets stained in filth by the time you've finished.

    I only played Dark Souls 1 (PC). In New Game+ at level 165, I wouldn't mind in theory the PvP and backstabbing, if my opponent weren't teleporting all over the place constantly due to the sh*tty P2P connection.
  • Pr0Skygon
    Pr0Skygon
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @starkerealm I do play Bloodborne actually. And as I've said, I do not wish ESO to become, or even copy and paste the combat system from Bloodborne. I'm talking merely about the quality of animation, not the system itself.
    You can obviously say that ESO combat system is excellent, yet saying the same for how it presented is just overrated.
  • Pr0Skygon
    Pr0Skygon
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Vipstaakki If I'm a fool for asking better quality for products, so that I and my friends, and also many other people can enjoy, then so be it.
  • starkerealm
    starkerealm
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Pr0Skygon wrote: »
    @AlMcFly I do not believe ESO needs the level of polish like Dark Souls, yet when you look at newer mmorpg, such as Black Desert Online (it was actually first came out in Korean in 2014, so it's basically came out the same time as ESO), and can see how ESO is falling behind on this front.

    @Pr0Skygon, "Dark Souls," and "polish," aren't really terms that can happily coexist in the same sentence. Even Bloodborne is marvelously jankey. It's one of the more endearing elements of those games, to be honest. And there are few things quite as amusing as watching the boss you just signed up to fight sidestep off a cliff.

    Even with Bloodborne, there's some amazing jankyness when it comes to the hitboxes.

    They're enjoyable games, but they're not polished. In the case of Dark Souls itself, the final areas are almost unfinished.

    While there's a lot of games I can point to and say, "ZOS should look at those and take some lessons," including from Dark Souls, Fromsoft's "polish," isn't something I'd recommend. Mildly provocative item descriptions? Yeah, that would be a nice touch.
  • AlMcFly
    AlMcFly
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Pr0Skygon wrote: »
    @AlMcFly I do not believe ESO needs the level of polish like Dark Souls, yet when you look at newer mmorpg, such as Black Desert Online (it was actually first came out in Korean in 2014, so it's basically came out the same time as ESO), and can see how ESO is falling behind on this front.

    Technically, if they came out at the same time, ESO isn't "falling behind", they just released a different game. I got to endgame of Black Desert too. It is INCREDIBLY beautiful to look at. That's it. The rest of the game is literally a farming simulator where everything gouges you with cash shop purchases, high-end weaponry is upgraded through RNG that breaks your weapon, and World Bosses are teleport fests because the game can't render all the bloom.

    I'll take current ESO over current Black Desert 100/100 times over.
  • starkerealm
    starkerealm
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    AlMcFly wrote: »
    Sigtric wrote: »
    Opinions are like...

    ...backstabs in Bloodborne. They take way too long to wind up, and everyone gets stained in filth by the time you've finished.

    I only played Dark Souls 1 (PC). In New Game+ at level 165, I wouldn't mind in theory the PvP and backstabbing, if my opponent weren't teleporting all over the place constantly due to the sh*tty P2P connection.

    Legitimately, I would recommend taking a look at it. Particularly if you enjoy cosmic horror as an aesthetic.
  • Pr0Skygon
    Pr0Skygon
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @AlMcFly I'm not comparing the whole game of ESO to compare with BDO. I'm not. I'm comparing their combat animation. Not even the combat system, just the animation. Please don't get the wrong idea.
  • starkerealm
    starkerealm
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Pr0Skygon wrote: »
    @starkerealm I do play Bloodborne actually. And as I've said, I do not wish ESO to become, or even copy and paste the combat system from Bloodborne. I'm talking merely about the quality of animation, not the system itself.
    You can obviously say that ESO combat system is excellent, yet saying the same for how it presented is just overrated.

    There's an irony here, because I would seriously think about an equip weight system like Dark Souls. I mean, I really like that mechanic, instead of what we do have.

    There is probably some room for change on the combat animations. But, at the same time, because of how much or how little damage an attack can do, having an overwrought animation play every time you connect would be misleading to the players.

    Alternately, consider that with Bloodborne (and Souls in general), breaking an enemy's poise and staggering them is a major part of the strategy, particularly for crowd control. The animations are gated by breaking poise, but in ESO, you're looking at combat where multiple players are the norm rather than the exception, and the equivalent of breaking poise would be horrifically powerful in groups.
  • AlMcFly
    AlMcFly
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Pr0Skygon wrote: »
    @AlMcFly I'm not comparing the whole game of ESO to compare with BDO. I'm not. I'm comparing their combat animation. Not even the combat system, just the animation. Please don't get the wrong idea.

    If you are not comparing the "whole game" to ESO, then your comparison is worthless, no offense. You HAVE to compare a total package with total package for the simple reason of PRIORITIES. Black Desert is only insanely beautiful because they dedicated a HUGE chunk of their development time and money into how the game looks, and a very low amount of time and money into how the game world plays.

    You want ESO to mimic Black Desert in that one aspect? Well, I hate to break it to you, but that "one aspect" does not come without the other less desirable aspects. It's a package deal. If ESO were developed like Black Desert, it might be beautiful, but the story and world would be just as empty and devoid of content as Black Desert.

    Your comparison is lacking.
  • Pr0Skygon
    Pr0Skygon
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @starkerealm I think you're getting the wrong idea. I do not want Dark Souls or Bloodborne to be a solid model for modern action RPG, nor want ZOS to learn anything particular from those game.
    What I bring up is just a picture of a game that I didn't even bother naming. That's it, a picture, nothing more. Just as an example of how you can make an already established idea, and make it even better.
    I do not want ESO and Dark Souls/Bloodborne to be compared in any aspect, since those game are totally different.
  • starkerealm
    starkerealm
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    That said, Bloodborne's trick weapons are something I still find disproportionately cool. I don't think there's a way to fit them within ESO's framework or setting, but still, those things are seriously neat.
  • starkerealm
    starkerealm
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    AlMcFly wrote: »
    Pr0Skygon wrote: »
    @AlMcFly I'm not comparing the whole game of ESO to compare with BDO. I'm not. I'm comparing their combat animation. Not even the combat system, just the animation. Please don't get the wrong idea.

    If you are not comparing the "whole game" to ESO, then your comparison is worthless, no offense. You HAVE to compare a total package with total package for the simple reason of PRIORITIES. Black Desert is only insanely beautiful because they dedicated a HUGE chunk of their development time and money into how the game looks, and a very low amount of time and money into how the game world plays.

    You want ESO to mimic Black Desert in that one aspect? Well, I hate to break it to you, but that "one aspect" does not come without the other less desirable aspects. It's a package deal. If ESO were developed like Black Desert, it might be beautiful, but the story and world would be just as empty and devoid of content as Black Desert.

    Your comparison is lacking.

    Yeah. I mean that's kind of the problem here. Yes, ESO's combat animations could be improved. Yes, there are games that do them better. But, those are also games with seriously different design goals.

    Bloodborne aims to be a hyper visceral action game. Really, the Souls games in general have more in common with character action games than RPGs. It's great stuff when it works, but it doesn't fit the gameplay of ESO.

    Similarly, DBO is ****ing gorgeous. I mean, that's it's thing. That is its only thing. It's an extremely beautiful sandbox to spend the next thirty years grinding in.

    If someone's coming to the game expecting visceral combat, based on the animations, they're going to be turned off when, "dude, I just ripped out that guy's spleen, how is he still standing?"
  • Pr0Skygon
    Pr0Skygon
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @AlMcFly Your point of view is excellent, yet has 1 major flaw.

    You're comparing ESO and BDO as 2 products that "will be released", not products that "has been released".

    ESO and BDO has already come out for 3 years. They all have shaped their form and audience. ESO is rich, deep and flooded with content, yet falls behind in the production quality of BDO (better graphics, nicer animation,...). BDO however despite it's quarantine of content, is very sallow in quality.

    But both games have already done their job well. So why not improve what they still lack? They can do it. ESO can have better animation and production quality. On the other hand, BDO can now focus on world building, lore, content, ....

    That's the beauty of MMO, they don't just do well what they're good at, but they can also improve upon their weakness, and for ESO, that's its wonky animation.
  • bebynnag
    bebynnag
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    can someone tldr the original post for me - i have a hangover!
  • Pr0Skygon
    Pr0Skygon
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    @starkerealm @AlMcFly Guys we're really getting on the wrong foot here. I brought up some aspect of BDO and Bloodborne (actually just 1 picture of a game) to present how far the game industry has gone to after 3 years since ESO came out. And by doing that, I want ESO to catch up with the flow of innovation. Screw those other games, BDO, Bloodborne, I don't care about them, I only care about how and what ESO will become in the upcoming years, and I think an animation overhaul is just a matter of time, so why not bring it up already, and face the fact that it'll happen?
  • Malamar1229
    Malamar1229
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Rofl. I played BDO and it's horrible, so is the combat. How you can even begin to say it's better just debunks your whole story. Also, WoW...lol. I played for 10 yrs so I think my point is valid when I say Wow isn't even in the same universe as ESO. talk about a game that gave birth to a generation of sissy, instant gratification gamers....
This discussion has been closed.