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Black Rose - Most Useless set
Cyrediath
✭✭✭
With black rose, constitituon increases from 108 to 145 if i remember correctly. so even if i give up my 5.1.1 and go full heavy i get extra 259 magicka/stamina if i get hit in perfect conditions every 4 second. that equals 129 magicka and stamima recovery in perfect conditions with 7 heavy. But there are other sets give you 300 stamina/magicka recovery or %8 magicka reduction or %5 magicka + stamina reduction and doesnt force you to go full 7 heavy.
Isnt black rose is way tooooooo week for a set that can be bought with telvar, not a zone set nor craftable. These numbers for if i go 7 pieces heavy. if i go 5 h 1m 1l i will get less benefit. it will be 92.5 recovery. So i will be able to use just 1 extra talons after getting constantly hit for a mimute non-stop.
I mean i love the idea behind this set but mathematically its sooo weak that i think any set in game will perform better...
Isnt black rose is way tooooooo week for a set that can be bought with telvar, not a zone set nor craftable. These numbers for if i go 7 pieces heavy. if i go 5 h 1m 1l i will get less benefit. it will be 92.5 recovery. So i will be able to use just 1 extra talons after getting constantly hit for a mimute non-stop.
I mean i love the idea behind this set but mathematically its sooo weak that i think any set in game will perform better...
2
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Turelus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Well it doesn't suffer the disadvantage of being susceptible to poisons or other effects that reduce magicka regeneration.
Numbers might need some tweaks but I don't think the comparison of it's power vs a regen set is a good on.@Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."1 -
WuffyCerulei✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭It used to be stupidly OP until it got nerfed into the ground."Buzz Lightyear toy isle shot" Stormcalling/Animal Companions/Assassination PVP build hater
Bring Back Pure Class Build Power12 -
Magdalina✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Black rose used to be absolute BiS set for like 70% of Cyrodiil's population for months - tanks, stam builds and even some magicka builds all wore it. What looked "okay" on paper turned out godmode OP in practice because it was heavy's mitigation+damage boni+passive resource return unaffected by poisons, Battle Spirit or anything. It's been nerfed multiple times since then since it'd clearly been overperforming.
I know it's far from meta now but I'm not sure if it's all that useless even now. Does anyone still use it? I don't like it personally so never used it even in its best days.1 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Just Zeni's way to handle things. The 40%+ consitution nerf on top of the nerf to the set itself killed it for me.4 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If they had left it the way it was it would now be useful and not op. But it's ZOS and they love to overdo things. Now the next 6 months will be obvlion damage hell in cyro and then they'll overdo that nerf and introduce some other op thing. Can't say we didn't warn them.5 -
Brutusmax1mus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Don't forget it adds weapon and spell damage too in addition too the resources from constitution. I'm not sure of the numbers exactly but the sets 5 piece works out to be
150 spell damage, 150 weapon damage, 45ish magicka recovery, 45 stamina recovery where the recovery is conditional on being hit every 4 seconds, is not effected by cp or poisons.
Imo i like this set a lot on my hybrid dk tank for vdsa paired with shacklebreaker as can still deal some damage. But for pvp you're better off going with tbs and choosing 2 mundus stones that are stronger instead of a hybrid.1 -
Reverb✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think more time needs to pass before that particular set gets a buff. There was so much salt thrown at Black Rose + Malubeth builds that the armor corroded.Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. ~Friedrich Nietzsche4 -
Cyrediath✭✭✭Brutusmax1mus wrote: »Don't forget it adds weapon and spell damage too in addition too the resources from constitution. I'm not sure of the numbers exactly but the sets 5 piece works out to be
150 spell damage, 150 weapon damage, 45ish magicka recovery, 45 stamina recovery where the recovery is conditional on being hit every 4 seconds, is not effected by cp or poisons.
Imo i like this set a lot on my hybrid dk tank for vdsa paired with shacklebreaker as can still deal some damage. But for pvp you're better off going with tbs and choosing 2 mundus stones that are stronger instead of a hybrid.
as i said any set would perform better than black rose. do you want damage? go sustain heavy set and put spell damage on your jewelry you will het more spell power + morr sustain. reduction sets, recovery sets they all superior to black rose. im not saying slightly. just superior. take a pen and a paper and do some calculations you will see black rose 5 piece bonus is a joke...
before nerf to constitiuon + black rose it could be considered op but it over nerfed. there is a set which gives you 300 stamina 300 magicka recovery and with some % buffs like wood elf passive its 360 recovery. with potion 432 recovery. with vampire 474 recovery and what does black rose gives? 92.5 recovery. its a joke.. i dont want it to give something like 300 recovery like other sets but atleast 150-200 would be okay imo it would be decent.0 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WuffyCerulei wrote: »It used to be stupidly OP until it got nerfed into the ground.
How all ZoS nerfs go2 -
Cyrediath✭✭✭I think more time needs to pass before that particular set gets a buff. There was so much salt thrown at Black Rose + Malubeth builds that the armor corroded.
you cant just nerf sets just because it fits well in some particular builds. just compare it with other sets. alteration mastery or seducer performs muuuuch more better and seducer is craftable and black rose is not. you can buy it with telvar. i think it should give at least enough sustain comoered to an easily craftable set.0 -
Brutusmax1mus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Brutusmax1mus wrote: »Don't forget it adds weapon and spell damage too in addition too the resources from constitution. I'm not sure of the numbers exactly but the sets 5 piece works out to be
150 spell damage, 150 weapon damage, 45ish magicka recovery, 45 stamina recovery where the recovery is conditional on being hit every 4 seconds, is not effected by cp or poisons.
Imo i like this set a lot on my hybrid dk tank for vdsa paired with shacklebreaker as can still deal some damage. But for pvp you're better off going with tbs and choosing 2 mundus stones that are stronger instead of a hybrid.
as i said any set would perform better than black rose. do you want damage? go sustain heavy set and put spell damage on your jewelry you will het more spell power + morr sustain. reduction sets, recovery sets they all superior to black rose. im not saying slightly. just superior. take a pen and a paper and do some calculations you will see black rose 5 piece bonus is a joke...
before nerf to constitiuon + black rose it could be considered op but it over nerfed. there is a set which gives you 300 stamina 300 magicka recovery and with some % buffs like wood elf passive its 360 recovery. with potion 432 recovery. with vampire 474 recovery and what does black rose gives? 92.5 recovery. its a joke.. i dont want it to give something like 300 recovery like other sets but atleast 150-200 would be okay imo it would be decent.
You're overlooking some very important features when comparing amberplasm and black Rose. You're pigeon holing br as just a sustain set which it is not.
For instance, amber plasms stam regen does nothing for you at all of you're blocking.
Personally i think it's a well balanced set but it doesn't fit the low ttk burst meta.1 -
Cyrediath✭✭✭Brutusmax1mus wrote: »Brutusmax1mus wrote: »Don't forget it adds weapon and spell damage too in addition too the resources from constitution. I'm not sure of the numbers exactly but the sets 5 piece works out to be
150 spell damage, 150 weapon damage, 45ish magicka recovery, 45 stamina recovery where the recovery is conditional on being hit every 4 seconds, is not effected by cp or poisons.
Imo i like this set a lot on my hybrid dk tank for vdsa paired with shacklebreaker as can still deal some damage. But for pvp you're better off going with tbs and choosing 2 mundus stones that are stronger instead of a hybrid.
as i said any set would perform better than black rose. do you want damage? go sustain heavy set and put spell damage on your jewelry you will het more spell power + morr sustain. reduction sets, recovery sets they all superior to black rose. im not saying slightly. just superior. take a pen and a paper and do some calculations you will see black rose 5 piece bonus is a joke...
before nerf to constitiuon + black rose it could be considered op but it over nerfed. there is a set which gives you 300 stamina 300 magicka recovery and with some % buffs like wood elf passive its 360 recovery. with potion 432 recovery. with vampire 474 recovery and what does black rose gives? 92.5 recovery. its a joke.. i dont want it to give something like 300 recovery like other sets but atleast 150-200 would be okay imo it would be decent.
You're overlooking some very important features when comparing amberplasm and black Rose. You're pigeon holing br as just a sustain set which it is not.
For instance, amber plasms stam regen does nothing for you at all of you're blocking.
Personally i think it's a well balanced set but it doesn't fit the low ttk burst meta.
Do you think 150 damage + 45 recovery is well rounded? i need to get hit 100 seconds non stop to use 1 extra heal or aoe but probably will die before using it you know. its perfect situation that you get hit 100 seconds. probably it will givr me 4.500 magicka after 2 or 3 minutes. black rose doesnt give you constitituon it just buffs it slightly and that buff is unnoticable considering you can get this set from merchant only. you can just craft seducer heavy and it will perform muuuuch better maybe %300 or more better (just guessing) and its craftable and easy to get. so black rose is not well rounded set its been just nerfed back to oblivion.0 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Brutusmax1mus wrote: »Brutusmax1mus wrote: »Don't forget it adds weapon and spell damage too in addition too the resources from constitution. I'm not sure of the numbers exactly but the sets 5 piece works out to be
150 spell damage, 150 weapon damage, 45ish magicka recovery, 45 stamina recovery where the recovery is conditional on being hit every 4 seconds, is not effected by cp or poisons.
Imo i like this set a lot on my hybrid dk tank for vdsa paired with shacklebreaker as can still deal some damage. But for pvp you're better off going with tbs and choosing 2 mundus stones that are stronger instead of a hybrid.
as i said any set would perform better than black rose. do you want damage? go sustain heavy set and put spell damage on your jewelry you will het more spell power + morr sustain. reduction sets, recovery sets they all superior to black rose. im not saying slightly. just superior. take a pen and a paper and do some calculations you will see black rose 5 piece bonus is a joke...
before nerf to constitiuon + black rose it could be considered op but it over nerfed. there is a set which gives you 300 stamina 300 magicka recovery and with some % buffs like wood elf passive its 360 recovery. with potion 432 recovery. with vampire 474 recovery and what does black rose gives? 92.5 recovery. its a joke.. i dont want it to give something like 300 recovery like other sets but atleast 150-200 would be okay imo it would be decent.
You're overlooking some very important features when comparing amberplasm and black Rose. You're pigeon holing br as just a sustain set which it is not.
For instance, amber plasms stam regen does nothing for you at all of you're blocking.
Personally i think it's a well balanced set but it doesn't fit the low ttk burst meta.
Sorry, but do I get this right? You say BR is well balanced? Especially in comparison with amberplasm or in itself?
In comparison:
Amber has no condition - it doesn't requires you to get beaten for that tiny bit of extra regen. The extra dmg of BR is tiny and get's eaten by amber's crit. The 5p amber bonus is great, especially in PvP. Never run out of stamina as a mag build.
In itself:
Is it a sustain set? It returns resources but the amount is too small.
Is it a damage set? It grants 154 damage and one resource bonus, but nothing to crit chance, penetration or a specialized bonus.
Is it a defensive set? It grants one health bonus but nothing to health regen, healing, resistances, absolute mitigation, blocking etc.
Is it an utility/ hybrid/j ack of all traits set? Might be, the boni are wide spread. So it is balanced in itself but is it useful? Why should I take BR over e.g. Shacklebreaker? The latter has more main/secondary resource, more regen (without conidtions) and just a tiny bit less wpn/spell dmg (which will get cought up by the bigger resource boni).
Only thing it got's going for it is the fact that resource return doesn't get diminished or stopped via debuffs or blocking/sprinting.
I honestly couldn't tell why one who isn't a permablock hybrid tank should use it. It went from op BiS to too niche.
I don't exactly know how BR will be after the next patch when 2-4 piece boni get buffed, amber gets nerfed a bit and the 5p shacklebreaker bonus remains untouched (does it? can't log in to PTS anymore). But I guess in comparison it will still limp behind.
So what could be done to make it competitive but not OP again? Maybe just revert the change to BR would be enough.1 -
Brutusmax1mus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Brutusmax1mus wrote: »Brutusmax1mus wrote: »Don't forget it adds weapon and spell damage too in addition too the resources from constitution. I'm not sure of the numbers exactly but the sets 5 piece works out to be
150 spell damage, 150 weapon damage, 45ish magicka recovery, 45 stamina recovery where the recovery is conditional on being hit every 4 seconds, is not effected by cp or poisons.
Imo i like this set a lot on my hybrid dk tank for vdsa paired with shacklebreaker as can still deal some damage. But for pvp you're better off going with tbs and choosing 2 mundus stones that are stronger instead of a hybrid.
as i said any set would perform better than black rose. do you want damage? go sustain heavy set and put spell damage on your jewelry you will het more spell power + morr sustain. reduction sets, recovery sets they all superior to black rose. im not saying slightly. just superior. take a pen and a paper and do some calculations you will see black rose 5 piece bonus is a joke...
before nerf to constitiuon + black rose it could be considered op but it over nerfed. there is a set which gives you 300 stamina 300 magicka recovery and with some % buffs like wood elf passive its 360 recovery. with potion 432 recovery. with vampire 474 recovery and what does black rose gives? 92.5 recovery. its a joke.. i dont want it to give something like 300 recovery like other sets but atleast 150-200 would be okay imo it would be decent.
You're overlooking some very important features when comparing amberplasm and black Rose. You're pigeon holing br as just a sustain set which it is not.
For instance, amber plasms stam regen does nothing for you at all of you're blocking.
Personally i think it's a well balanced set but it doesn't fit the low ttk burst meta.
Do you think 150 damage + 45 recovery is well rounded? i need to get hit 100 seconds non stop to use 1 extra heal or aoe but probably will die before using it you know. its perfect situation that you get hit 100 seconds. probably it will givr me 4.500 magicka after 2 or 3 minutes. black rose doesnt give you constitituon it just buffs it slightly and that buff is unnoticable considering you can get this set from merchant only. you can just craft seducer heavy and it will perform muuuuch better maybe %300 or more better (just guessing) and its craftable and easy to get. so black rose is not well rounded set its been just nerfed back to oblivion.
You're thinking of it from 1 side, as in magicka regen a spell damage.
Its not regen either, and it effects stamina as well.
Its a hybrid set, there are much better alternatives if you're going for 1 damage type. Are you just trying to argue or something or do you refuse to accept it has a purpose?
I'm stating it has uses, but clearly not for whatever pure magicka damage build you want. The area it performs well in is very niche and non meta but it can be effective. It wont be In the hands of someone who just thinks of damage and regen.0 -
Brutusmax1mus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Brutusmax1mus wrote: »Brutusmax1mus wrote: »Don't forget it adds weapon and spell damage too in addition too the resources from constitution. I'm not sure of the numbers exactly but the sets 5 piece works out to be
150 spell damage, 150 weapon damage, 45ish magicka recovery, 45 stamina recovery where the recovery is conditional on being hit every 4 seconds, is not effected by cp or poisons.
Imo i like this set a lot on my hybrid dk tank for vdsa paired with shacklebreaker as can still deal some damage. But for pvp you're better off going with tbs and choosing 2 mundus stones that are stronger instead of a hybrid.
as i said any set would perform better than black rose. do you want damage? go sustain heavy set and put spell damage on your jewelry you will het more spell power + morr sustain. reduction sets, recovery sets they all superior to black rose. im not saying slightly. just superior. take a pen and a paper and do some calculations you will see black rose 5 piece bonus is a joke...
before nerf to constitiuon + black rose it could be considered op but it over nerfed. there is a set which gives you 300 stamina 300 magicka recovery and with some % buffs like wood elf passive its 360 recovery. with potion 432 recovery. with vampire 474 recovery and what does black rose gives? 92.5 recovery. its a joke.. i dont want it to give something like 300 recovery like other sets but atleast 150-200 would be okay imo it would be decent.
You're overlooking some very important features when comparing amberplasm and black Rose. You're pigeon holing br as just a sustain set which it is not.
For instance, amber plasms stam regen does nothing for you at all of you're blocking.
Personally i think it's a well balanced set but it doesn't fit the low ttk burst meta.
Sorry, but do I get this right? You say BR is well balanced? Especially in comparison with amberplasm or in itself?
In comparison:
Amber has no condition - it doesn't requires you to get beaten for that tiny bit of extra regen. The extra dmg of BR is tiny and get's eaten by amber's crit. The 5p amber bonus is great, especially in PvP. Never run out of stamina as a mag build.
In itself:
Is it a sustain set? It returns resources but the amount is too small.
Is it a damage set? It grants 154 damage and one resource bonus, but nothing to crit chance, penetration or a specialized bonus.
Is it a defensive set? It grants one health bonus but nothing to health regen, healing, resistances, absolute mitigation, blocking etc.
Is it an utility/ hybrid/j ack of all traits set? Might be, the boni are wide spread. So it is balanced in itself but is it useful? Why should I take BR over e.g. Shacklebreaker? The latter has more main/secondary resource, more regen (without conidtions) and just a tiny bit less wpn/spell dmg (which will get cought up by the bigger resource boni).
Only thing it got's going for it is the fact that resource return doesn't get diminished or stopped via debuffs or blocking/sprinting.
I honestly couldn't tell why one who isn't a permablock hybrid tank should use it. It went from op BiS to too niche.
I don't exactly know how BR will be after the next patch when 2-4 piece boni get buffed, amber gets nerfed a bit and the 5p shacklebreaker bonus remains untouched (does it? can't log in to PTS anymore). But I guess in comparison it will still limp behind.
So what could be done to make it competitive but not OP again? Maybe just revert the change to BR would be enough.
I wouldn't compare them at all, i was responding to the comparison made by op. Amber is better in regen and damage for a pure magicka user easily. I don't use amber when i run any magicka build that blocks though, such as templar support or light armor dk as the stamina is completely halted by blocking which i do a lot on some magicka builds. I'm not saying i use br in its place though...
Br constitution buff cannot be effected by cp either.
Its no longer a dps set, and is now a hybrid set that is niche and balanced. The 2,3,4 are getting a buff next patch you're right. That'll be nice.
Not sure why anyone thinks max health, max magicka, max stamina, 150 weapon damage, 150 spell damage, as a buff to constitution isn't balanced. Especially for a hybrid.
Again, its a niche set, but it is not useless.0 -
Cyrediath✭✭✭I dont say black rose has no purpose i clearly set i really love the idea of black rose but its an underperforming set. 5 set bonus just really not worth it.1
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Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There simply isn't a strong enough reason to run this over most sets now. With sets being in such strong competition (as in less than a % difference) most nerfs take a set out of contention0 -
Aztlan✭✭✭✭The OP is right. This set needs to be stronger given how difficult it is to obtain. It was weakened far too much.3 -
kendellking_chaosb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭WuffyCerulei wrote: »It used to be stupidly OP until it got nerfed into the ground.
The set was never OP the way blocking worked was. It was only called OP on block builds that were charged every .5 seconds now it's .25 seconds. With the changes to blocking now it would great but no OP or BiS.Chaos Shadow-Scale: Shadow Archer
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Chaos Light-Scale: Marsh Paladin
Chaos Lightning-Scale: Daedric Master
Hurricane Chaos: Storm Archer
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Chaos of Black Marsh: Master of The Burning Sword
Star of Chaos: Frost Blade Champion
Chaos-Lightning-Tower: Lightning Shield Master
For the King of Argonia
May Sithis hold back his Void2 -
geonsocal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭you've sadly misread the magnificent nostalgic value of the black rose set...it's been in my closet forever - and, it still looks good...
use it from time to time on my stamplar and stam dk...both characters are werewolves...
the set seems to work well with other sets - defensive, or offensive...nice filler gear when you don't know what else to wear...Edited by geonsocal on August 11, 2017 5:36AMPVP Campaigns Section: Playstation NA and EU (Gray Host) - This Must be the Place0 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Just farm something is always the way to obtain anything. As if normal raids would be any harder to complete.
Edited by Chilly-McFreeze on August 11, 2017 5:58PM1 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »WuffyCerulei wrote: »It used to be stupidly OP until it got nerfed into the ground.
The set was never OP the way blocking worked was. It was only called OP on block builds that were charged every .5 seconds now it's .25 seconds. With the changes to blocking now it would great but no OP or BiS.
No, no, no. Permablock got barely touched due to bad calculations. Block cost changes hit normals builds faaaaar harder. If I find the link to how it's calculated and why it still causes issues, i'll post it here.
E: huh, that was easy to find
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/355523/permablocking-and-block-cost-calculations-analysis/p1Edited by Chilly-McFreeze on August 11, 2017 6:00PM0 -
Cyrediath✭✭✭
if you are solo it will take more than a day to farm that ap or you can just craft seducer in a sec and it will perform waaaay better than black rose :P0 -
Cyrediath✭✭✭you've sadly misread the magnificent nostalgic value of the black rose set...it's been in my closet forever - and, it still looks good...
use it from time to time on my stamplar and stam dk...both characters are werewolves...
the set seems to work well with other sets - defensive, or offensive...nice filler gear when you don't know what else to wear...
i think you also like the idea behind the black rose. its really cool but mathematically it performs veeeery poorly. shame...0 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭you've sadly misread the magnificent nostalgic value of the black rose set...it's been in my closet forever - and, it still looks good...
use it from time to time on my stamplar and stam dk...both characters are werewolves...
the set seems to work well with other sets - defensive, or offensive...nice filler gear when you don't know what else to wear...
i think you also like the idea behind the black rose. its really cool but mathematically it performs veeeery poorly. shame...
That's what QQ'ers do1 -
Cyrediath✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »you've sadly misread the magnificent nostalgic value of the black rose set...it's been in my closet forever - and, it still looks good...
use it from time to time on my stamplar and stam dk...both characters are werewolves...
the set seems to work well with other sets - defensive, or offensive...nice filler gear when you don't know what else to wear...
i think you also like the idea behind the black rose. its really cool but mathematically it performs veeeery poorly. shame...
That's what QQ'ers do
Do you have anything to say or just here to tag people?0 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I didn't tag anyone. Anyway, you can't buff a set that's been nerfed because that's not what ZoS does.
So the thread is pointless.
Was good. Cry babies got it nerfed, and will probably do so with Oblivion Damage.
Move on2
