Kicking healers other then templars

exeeter702 · August 2017

Artis wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Did someone *** in your cheerios? Why are you angry?

But since i guess i have to repeat myself. Clarifying the HPS values between the 5 classes is intended to shave off half the argument here as many people believe that templar healers on top of anything else, provide more healing throughput which is false. The discussion then falls into utility support and its reliable application.

Im also not sure what comments i have made in this thread that have been refuted. I have not claimed irrefutable proof that non templar healers can compete and the absolute highest to equivalent scores. I have said that i believe there is a precedent that has been set where non templar healers are not actually being tested at the highest level. And that influence effects everyone below.

I'm angry when people can't follow simple logic. I have enough of that with my students lol.

I never said that other classes can't heal. HPS itself or even utility itself aren't relevant. What's relevant is the combination of both and how well they work with what other roles do and other classes have.

And yes, that what you said you believe? That's what I'm saying. Take that alternatively gifted guy from above, take 2 more, and take non templar healer to the highest level content. And show that top groups somehow overlooked them. But you know it's not true, and they consider running any class and any role - whatever works best. Every update. That's why there was time when suddenly everyone started running stamplars and top vdsa scores went to them. Even though before that update NO ONE ran them. So what changed? Same here, why would you think that top group that are pushing scores won't consider every option including options that were never used before?

Again the logic comment is unnecessary. Wether or not you agree with my stance on the topic, telling me healing is not the only factor and that in 9 pages i dont get it only suggests you have not read through the thread as everyone with experience here understands EXACTLY what is required amd expected from a healer. Having main healed every hm vet trial on NB albiet not for leader board placement admittedly, i dont need to be told that, hense the paying attention response.

Now i know this is going off topic a bit but historically in this game, dps have always been exempt from such scrutiny. Dps have always been benched and swapped based on performance in a given patch. This never had anything to do with what the class was intended for what role. All 4 classes at the time were viewed as viable in the dps role and then were teired based on parse performance. This is not and has never been the case with the healing role. Templars for the logest time were viewed as THE intended defacto healer in the game and for good reason. That reason however has lost some of its weight over the last year with the updates that have effected each class in the game.

Throughtout TG, stam DKs were top dog in dps, despite dks being the dominant tanks and no one bats an eye. Templars concerns about no longer be top dog healers when morrowind patch hit beta and everyone lost there ***. This is the mentality im talking about in conjunction with the precedent i believe has been set.

Artis · August 2017

exeeter702 wrote: »

Again the logic comment is unnecessary. Wether or not you agree with my stance on the topic, telling me healing is not the only factor and that in 9 pages i dont get it only suggests you have not read through the thread as everyone with experience here understands EXACTLY what is required amd expected from a healer. Having main healed every hm vet trial on NB albiet not for leader board placement admittedly, i dont need to be told that, hense the paying attention response.

Now i know this is going off topic a bit but historically in this game, dps have always been exempt from such scrutiny. Dps have always been benched and swapped based on performance in a given patch. This never had anything to do with what the class was intended for what role. All 4 classes at the time were viewed as viable in the dps role and then were teired bassed on parse performance. This is not and has never been the case with the healing role. Templars for the logest time were viewed as THE intended defacto healer in the game and for food reason. That reason however has lost its weight over the last year with the updates that have effected each class in the game.

Throughtout TG, stam DKs were top dog in dps, despite dks being the dominant tanks and no one bats an eye. Templars concerns about no longer be top dog healers when morrowind patch hit beta and everyone lost there ***. This is the mentality im talking about in conjunction with the precedent i believe has been set.

This is not talking about tastes in music or food. There's no such thing as "stance on the topic" here. There are numbers and performance involved. One can be either right or wrong. And then what are you arguing with? I never said only 1 class can tank or heal. Or that each class can only do 1 role or anything like that. I just said that there are healer/tank/dps classes. And I'm absolutely right about it. And yes those classes change from update to update. And yes, for DPS the situation is a bit different because performance is easier to measure. But no, not every class was always viable. For example, for the past year (before morrowind) you could definitely say that DPS classes were Sorcs, Dks and maybe templars. Definitely not NB, they performed terribly compared to others. The difference wasn't negligible, leader boards only proved it.

You healed every vet hm on a NB healer? Then why won't you say so? The vHOF leaderboard is still empty and only a few groups completed HM. Then you must be able to show a NB healer with top scores. Your healer. He should be up there if he healed vmol and vhof hm. Not many groups completed them. So go ahead - just show it.

Tasear · August 2017

Artis wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

"Yawn"? I'm sorry I'm boring you I guess. Can't blame you, templar healers bore me so I have mine collecting dust.

Every single class in the game has a burst heal in healing ward.

Veil's radius is Novas minus about 5ft. It stacks with nova. You often stack to get the most out of healing springs (which, fun fact, only has a 3m larger radius than veil).

Sorcs can negate trash area damage, and of course it's not as useful as warhorn. Neither is nova or veil if you want damage. It's a utility skill for defense, and you left out the healing it does

It is theoretical blah blah blah? No, it is a discussion. We're talking about how you can heal on any class in any content and not drag your team down. I think you feel were arguing there is no "best"? I'm not. I'm saying not taking another healer besides a templar is silliness unless you're going for the all time score. There are so few competing you don't even really need it for weeklies. If you want a temp-temp run at all times, cool! Just know a sorc-temp or DK- temp won't suffer in the way you think.

"And you are ignoring the main question. Why are best group running templar (and now warden sometimes) healers?"

I actually don't know. And I'm not trolling when I ask why, I'm genuine. The answer "they're the best because the best use them" isn't an explanation, it is circular logic. Why use two temps. And moreover, isn't it telling people are starting to use one temp, and one off class?

"There are classes that are the best in certain roles, it's just what it is." Well, yeah. Math works. What I care about is HOW big the difference is and tbh, the difference is there, but not big enough to make or break you, all other variables controlled. Maybe a minute or two less? Maybe? If you're going for world first, this matters. Where else does it? Certainly not for me. That isn't Inherently any more or less selfish than asking me to play a class I don't like for anything other than a world first, world record etc. If we're clearing a vet HM trial, and we clear just fine with one none temp...who actually cares?

"there's just no reason to bring another class over a templar(+warden maybe if you need 2 healers). Like, where exactly would it be needed? In which trials/dungeons?"

If you need two healers? O.o If?

And the reason is I like it, and provide buffs and situational stuff for my group. Tank won't need to chain adds to safety rock in AA, can use shield instead for more stam to block and shield the group. Ever tried not stacking during last boss MoL? Having your group pile up together means veil AND nova together is a HUGE reduction in incoming, and veil lasts longer than nova (Almost double duration in fact).

That's only off the top of my head.

Veil is dropped under the caster, Nova can be dropped at the range of 25m. Stacking doesn't matter, in score runs - no place requires stacking veil and nova, not to mention that it's a DPS loss. 5ft radius - assuming this is true, I've no idea where you got this number from, link please - means 1.524 meters with the radius of veil being 5m. Thus the area covered by veil is 78.5 square meters and Nova covers 133.7 square meters, which is almost 2 times as much. And don't forget about 28m range. But most important? It doesn't matter what area is covered by Nova at all. Players don't need to be inside. They can be anywhere they want.

What trash area damage? Please, you still didn't list any examples. Exact fights and places. Nova is useful. If you claim otherwise, please tell me how many groups completed vHOF hm without it (and even vhrc hm)?

No, sorry, but it is a theoretical blahblahblah here, because it's not taking reality into account. Want it to be a discussion? Be specific. Or you are like the guy who says 20k shields is the same as nova, when if you do simple math you show that NOWHERE where nova or barrier is actually needed barrier is better.

The logic is not circular. They are not the best because best use them. Best use them because they are the best. And no, 2 templars is good and all, but I see templar + warden pretty often now.

It really isn't relevant what matters to you, sorry. We were talking about optimal groups in this thread and what is good healer's job.

"If you need two healers? O.o If?"

Yes, if. Because I wasn't talking about trials only. I was talking about other dungeons, too.

Not stacking in MoL? What? Who stacks in MoL? Are you talking about normal? You didn't put "v" in front, so I guess, yes, but just making sure. Where in vMoL or even MOL do you need that huge reduction in incoming damage? It's like you are building your group around the fact that people WILL stand in stupid? Why?

Tasear wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Please read... already did. It's been a year and it's been great. Thanks all who made it possible friends and zos.

Already did what? Got to the mid ranks? That only proves my point so far. Get to the top, within a few percent of the top score, then we're talking.

Mid ranks? I was in mid ranks when my NB was a tank. That's nothing. That never changed the fact that DK was a tank class and NB was worse.

You are so silly, but I will bite. You pointed out saying nobody on leaderboard is non Templar healer, but that's not the truth. I know a dragon knight healer who hangs way above my head. A nightblade healer who definitely pushed it to best you can be. I actually know two or three other sorrecer healers among the ranks. The point is traditional is changing. It's people like this who change such perception.

As to say it's in your head. It's the player not the class

No, I didn't say that.... Please, read more carefully. I was talking about the top. Getting to a leaderboard is as easy as completing a trial's hm these days. Raiding population is much lower than in the past. I said - Idk maybe it wasn't clear somehow, so I'll clarify - that no healers in the top groups are DK or whatever. Meaning top of the leaderboard, not JUST being on leaderboards.

P.S. Stop putting words in my mouth. Never have I ever said or implied that other classes shouldn't or can't heal.

You must certainly did, but if you didn't that's great, but your words sure dift into a different story.

It's not that hard to make as top healer. All classes are over performing in hps. As you seem to switch your stance from general leaderboards to very top then let's discuss it. I say the answer is simply time. The ablity to complete between classes in healing as only been realistic recently. Even so we won't really know unless they provide a video which classes top 10 teams of healers in game.

But yes no matter how you phrase it there are non Templar healers consuming the ranks of leaderboard. These are "leader"boards as such leaders and top among millions of other players. There's presedence now, so back on topic its wrong to say someone can't compete because of there class which is point of this thread.

SirMewser · August 2017

If a DPS can't manage their own resources, then they already are a DPS loss.
In trial settings, elemental drain and orbs/shards are usually anticipated but in; 4 man dungeon, PVP, else places... It's just a waist of time putting those buffs in combat when you can have the healer help with DPS.

I generally kick the complainers about lacking "resources" because even when they are dealing less DPS with no resources, they advertently do no DPS by sitting there whining till the healer gets replaced.

Artis · August 2017

Tasear wrote: »

You must certainly did, but if you didn't that's great, but your words sure dift into a different story.

It's not that hard to make as top healer. All classes are over performing in hps. As you seem to switch your stance from general leaderboards to very top then let's discuss it. I say the answer is simply time. The ablity to complete between classes in healing as only been realistic recently. Even so we won't really know unless they provide a video which classes top 10 teams of healers in game.

But yes no matter how you phrase it there are non Templar healers consuming the ranks of leaderboard. These are "leader"boards as such leaders and top among millions of other players. There's presedence now, so back on topic its wrong to say someone can't compete because of there class which is point of this thread.

I with 100% certainty didn't, but you are more than welcome to show a quote where I did.

What I said, and I already clarified it, so not even sure why you still saying the opposite - is that there are obviously healer/tank/dps classes. The rest is you projecting. All this mercury and you're still so dense

Nope, that's irrelevant. Groups that aren't on leaderboards don't even count. These days whenever I run vet trials I end up on leaderboards without ever pushing the score.

SirMewser wrote: »

If a DPS can't manage their own resources, then they already are a DPS loss.
In trial settings, elemental drain and orbs/shards are usually anticipated but in; 4 man dungeon, PVP, else places... It's just a waist of time putting those buffs in combat when you can have the healer help with DPS.

I generally kick the complainers about lacking "resources" because even when they are dealing less DPS with no resources, they advertently do no DPS by sitting there whining till the healer gets replaced.

You're wrong. It's not a waste of time in 4 man dungeons. Nowhere in PvE it's a waste of time. And nowhere in PvE will DPS build resources - because THAT will be a DPS loss comparing to building pure damage and heavy attacking to regen. And healer not providing resource buffs is simply a dps loss compared to healer providing them.

If anything, it's a waste of time to have a full-time healer in 4 man dungeons.

Tasear · August 2017

Artis wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

You must certainly did, but if you didn't that's great, but your words sure dift into a different story.

It's not that hard to make as top healer. All classes are over performing in hps. As you seem to switch your stance from general leaderboards to very top then let's discuss it. I say the answer is simply time. The ablity to complete between classes in healing as only been realistic recently. Even so we won't really know unless they provide a video which classes top 10 teams of healers in game.

But yes no matter how you phrase it there are non Templar healers consuming the ranks of leaderboard. These are "leader"boards as such leaders and top among millions of other players. There's presedence now, so back on topic its wrong to say someone can't compete because of there class which is point of this thread.

I with 100% certainty didn't, but you are more than welcome to show a quote where I did.

What I said, and I already clarified it, so not even sure why you still saying the opposite - is that there are obviously healer/tank/dps classes. The rest is you projecting. All this mercury and you're still so dense

Nope, that's irrelevant. Groups that aren't on leaderboards don't even count. These days whenever I run vet trials I end up on leaderboards without ever pushing the score.

SirMewser wrote: »

If a DPS can't manage their own resources, then they already are a DPS loss.
In trial settings, elemental drain and orbs/shards are usually anticipated but in; 4 man dungeon, PVP, else places... It's just a waist of time putting those buffs in combat when you can have the healer help with DPS.

I generally kick the complainers about lacking "resources" because even when they are dealing less DPS with no resources, they advertently do no DPS by sitting there whining till the healer gets replaced.

You're wrong. It's not a waste of time in 4 man dungeons. Nowhere in PvE it's a waste of time. And nowhere in PvE will DPS build resources - because THAT will be a DPS loss comparing to building pure damage and heavy attacking to regen. And healer not providing resource buffs is simply a dps loss compared to healer providing them.

If anything, it's a waste of time to have a full-time healer in 4 man dungeons.

Let's agree to disagree.

[Deleted User] · August 2017

Hello everyone,

Recently we've had to remove quite a few posts from this thread for some non-constructive back and forth, keep in mind that flaming is against the Forum Rules. Regardless of where someone stands on the matter please be sure to stay respectful towards their opinion and constructive towards the topic.

Thank you for understanding.

Flameheart · August 2017

SirMewser wrote: »

If a DPS can't manage their own resources, then they already are a DPS loss.
In trial settings, elemental drain and orbs/shards are usually anticipated but in; 4 man dungeon, PVP, else places... It's just a waist of time putting those buffs in combat when you can have the healer help with DPS.

I generally kick the complainers about lacking "resources" because even when they are dealing less DPS with no resources, they advertently do no DPS by sitting there whining till the healer gets replaced.

Here we go again:

khai014 wrote: »

so resource recovery is also a job of healers now?

It always was, because it's the most efficient method in an ideal group.

The game gave healers nice tools for this, because only healers have the slot space on their bars for Eledrain, bubbles and shards. A DD on the other side uses potions mostly on cooldown in addition to other synergies for the Undaunted passive effect. DDs use heavy attacks to refill ressources somewhat, but just doing heavy attacks results in a remarkable dps loss.

The other way round, DDs support the healer by avoiding inc damage by movement, blocking and shielding and killing a boss as fast as possible to avoid potentially deadly mechanics.

Btw it's not the DDs alone who need support, good tanks need it too even if built for support and sustain. You know people actually love it that a tank pulls all trash close together so everything is hit by AoE and can be killed fast (and a healer can heal all by just doing springs), but taunts, chains and claws or caltrops cost ressources and there is a healer doing nothing but just healing ?

You know...do ut des.

As PUGs come along often with "not ideal groups" (sugarcoated) and especially with DDs who aren't worth the DD icon in the group tool, you might slot some damage. But in a group with 2 DDs capable of doing 30k+ dps with the right support it would be a waste to not slot for support (Eledrain, shards, warhorn).

Actually I sometimes watch healers in PUGs rearranging skills after the first few trash groups to adapt to the group. Those healers are good ones.

If you want to use a good dps skill as a healer then use lightning wall.The added dps isn't bad especially for AoE and - much better - it delivers the out of balance effect for 8% more dps and nice whipprocs for magDKs.

You know...that's called "synergy".

If I am leader in a well performing 4-man-group where the dps is ok, I just kick your healer when I don't see any support coming from you. Afterwards I just queue up again or I do one click for Dressing Room and play a healer myself and queue the group up again for a DD replacement. Btw, it's not just support for the DDs, some healers think the ressources for taunting as many adds as possible, using chains, movement decreasing ground dots, like Caltrops, Talons, Eruption or shields as a tank come from the ESO ghostworld.

Btw, it's either shards or bubbles, you don't need both in 4-man-stuff. Both synergies block each other on a 20 seconds cooldown. With the right morph those skills even do not that bad dps. Bubbles either do damage or heal. If you want to add dps, give your DDs a Lightning Wall, not bad dps and adds the out of balance effect for 8% more dps. Ever watched what dps a ticking shard + Ritual of Retribution + lighting wall does to a group of trash mobs ?

Btw, concerning the non-templar-healer-discussion, it's like 10:0 for Artis now. Wanne finish that now before it gets ridiculous? I am able to play all my chars as healers in 4-man-stuff and you won't realize a difference (all have Worm + SPC), but I know what classes I would take to a vet trial where you want to improve (when the status isn't clear yet) or just want a good score or if you are hunting for achievements.

DocFrost72 · August 2017

@Artis

Why are they the best?

Because the best use them.

Yes, but why would the best use them?

Wel, obviously, they are the best, which is why the best use them.

why are they the best, though?

(Circle

)

All classes have burst heals and area heals.

All classes can restore resources.

All classes can keep you alive.

All classes can heal.

Ergo, all classes can be healers. Can we agree on the above four statements?

celner4_ESO · August 2017

mystfit wrote: »

So, one of the guilds I was in...at least until yesterday...asked (told) all healers other then templars to get out of the guild. He followed up the chat rant with an email rant saying the same thing. He's the guild leader, he's well within his rights to run the guild as he sees fit. His issue seemed to be with providing stam to the group. Something I gather he felt made other healers useless. I am curious as to how many agree with his stance? <edited> To clarify, I'm curious about the stance of a healer needs to be a resource manager as well. It is my pleasure to assist the group however I can with whatever tools I may have (in this case a sorc). Also, as I had never grouped with the GL, this wasn't a personal attack at me nor did I take it as one.

I've healed vhof with another temp healer just fine as a Warden Healer and have gotten to general on my sorc healer as well JUST fine, the stigma that's created thinking Templars are the only viable healing class is complete horse ***. If you can utilize your class, and i feel Templar, Sorcs and Wardens would be the choices as far as healers go, then it does not matter which class you are playing and in fact in trials i feel its best to have 1 templar and a sorc or warden as the other healer because of the advantages each of those 3 classes have unique to them that they can bring to the team. Any bias that's there is usually a *** who's riding on their high horse and believes their wisdom trumps all other logic or argument. I loath those kinda of people and doubt they have much social skills and even less friends in the real world when they have that painfully obvious bullheaded arrogance.

ZOS snowflake forum police will probably remove this comment because codling to emotionally vulnerable people is more important then freedom of speech .

*God Bless America. The same country you hail from in fact, ZOS

*

cbaudersub17_ESO · August 2017

Artis wrote: »

cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

"Effectively" is NOT an absolute term. It's relative. Effective = the best possible way, as opposed to ineffective = gets the job done, but slower/worse.

You really should look up the word 'effective' in a dictionary.

Amusing thread.

Kind of wondering why all these stam-dps are doing it wrong by not playing a magica character for the high end runs that define how the game must be played at all levels.

Nope. You should. Or take a basic physics text book. Ever heard about the efficiency coefficient (or coefficient of performance/COP)? Just the fact that it's not equal to 0 doesn't mean that something is effective.

@Artis:

At the risk of being publically shunned for picking on someone that likely rode the short bus to school, 'effective' and 'efficient' ARE TWO DIFFERENT WORDS AND NOT SYNONYMOUS.

To be 'effective', something only needs to get the job done.

If you plan on debating by making up new meanings to words, you should have the courtesy to tell others the parameters and rule-sets.

What does physics have to do with a videogame set in a fictional universe with fictional characters?

Oh and if you are just pretending to be ret@rded, good job!

Aisle9 · August 2017

paulsimonps wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

mystfit wrote: »

So, one of the guilds I was in...at least until yesterday...asked (told) all healers other then templars to get out of the guild. He followed up the chat rant with an email rant saying the same thing. He's the guild leader, he's well within his rights to run the guild as he sees fit. His issue seemed to be with providing stam to the group. Something I gather he felt made other healers useless. I am curious as to how many agree with his stance? <edited> To clarify, I'm curious about the stance of a healer needs to be a resource manager as well. It is my pleasure to assist the group however I can with whatever tools I may have (in this case a sorc). Also, as I had never grouped with the GL, this wasn't a personal attack at me nor did I take it as one.

Leaving all the "everyone can heal" discussion aside.

There are things happening regarding guild management, that players might not see, especially when you have to manage trial raids.

People like to point fingers and say "That guy is a tryhard", "That guy is an ass". Problem is, that guy is trying to manage 11 more people, coming from different countries, with different levels of communication skills (some just plain refuse to communicate), with different degrees of skills, and they have to be managed.

You would know if you tried it.

It's easy to reach a breaking point where you just say stuff like "Every healer that is not X class, leave" because someone in the raid insisted in playing a certain class in a certain way.

It's not necessarily the best option or the only possible option, maybe it's just a way to avoid setting a precedent that can be used to make an argument, that will lead to making everyone wait while you finish arguing with that person.

When you're managing a 12 ppl raid, or a 500 ppl guild, there are things you need to do. People are quick to say "it's a game, I'm supposed to have fun, I don't want a boss in a game", but when your "having fun" makes 11 other people miserable, then you're just selfish. If you're skilled enough to provide a decent level of utility, while playing an unconventional class, there's no problem. If you can't, change class. Dps have it easy, then dps, let someone else heal. It's really that easy.

As other said, I don't know the reasons your GL said that, but it is true, it's within his rights to do whatever he wants with the guild. You're free to leave that guild (as you did) and find another one that better suits your play style.

When people say "The healer has to manage resources for the team as well" doesn't mean the healer is the sole provider of resources, it means the healer is supposed to help with it. Orbs costs a lot, but when one healer throws 3 or 4, the other healer does that as well, and the off-tank throws a couple too, you have orbs for everyone.

Here's another example of utility a healer can provide: Combat Prayer is not easy to use, because it requires people to stack together, but if applied it provides Minor Berserker to classes with no access to it (not everyone is a magblade). Slimecraw gives it as well, so, the argument might be "you can just slot Slimecraw", but then I wouldn't be able to slot something else like grothdarr, ilambris, skoria, kra'gh, all things that gives me more dps, which make the fight shorter, which means I need to heal less, which means we get more points, which means we get in the leaderboard and get mails with shiny stuff in them (leaderboard mails gives you golden gear from that trial).

So, is it better to slot Combat Prayer or to ask people to slot Slimecraw ? Maybe you find it less fun, because BoL is more fun, personally I don't understand it, but, hey, no account for taste. It will take more time, which means lower score, which means you probably won't get the shiny stuff this week.

You had fun, 11 people did not.

My personal opinion is that, when I play a role, I want to do the most in that role, which means, if I dps, I want to make sure I make as much damage as possible, which means, if the tank asks me not to use an ice staff, I won't, and if the healer asks me to stop dancing around and stack in front of them, I will stack in front of them. As a tank... It's not like I can tank the most, as long as I'm not dead, I'm doing the best possible job, so, what I can do after that is to provide support, so CC for adds, applying debuffs, and such. Same for playing a healer, I can't heal more than max HP, I can't give people spare heals to use in the next attack, so I might as well help the group with resources, since I have the means to do so.

Most of all I want to make sure I can function as a team member, not as a solo player in a group.

mystfit wrote: »

Whether the GL was a tad to assertive or not (and yes, I did leave the guild), I figure there is some value and making sure I'm doing 'all the right stuff' and I think I could use orbs more then I do (which is mostly not much). I enjoy healing on my sorc so plan on doing more of it!

"The right stuff" is situational.

In a 4ppl group for medium to hard content (vet dungeons, vDSA) you can do pretty much whatever you want. I once healed vDSA with 64 points in stamina. Not a hybrid class, I just derped after I respecced. Heals were weak AF, we wiped a couple times, I had to heavy attack every 2 abilities, but it wasn't that bad.

In the end we had a laugh.

Every class has 1 dps tree, 1 tank tree and 1 healing tree, plus everyone has access to resto staff abilities.

I main a magicka nightblade and healed every single veteran dungeon with it. It's actually quite fun, and I can potentially do a lot more damage than a magplar. Then I found out you don't really need a healer in vet dungeons and switched to tank instead. Being a magblade I was able to provide reliable healing while tanking, as well.

Would I heal a trial with it ? Hell no. Would I tank with it ? Maybe, but not with the same build.

It's not that one is better than the other, it's just easier, therefore, if you're not sure about your raid, it's the easy way to make sure you're good. If you're absolutely certain your raid is solid and everyone knows what to do, and they know where to stand, you can easily use refreshing path instead of ritual. Most of my healing comes from resto staff anyways, and as a magblade I can provide more warhorn uptime, because I have better ulti gen. MagDK have access to major mending which is a very powerful buff, while templars don't anymore. temp stil have access to Ritual, which is a very large AoE heal that last a very long time and also provides purge.

Bottom line is, you can do a lot of stuff in this game and be good at it, the key is to understand your abilities, and get better at the class you're using. It's easy to ask others which build or which class to use, but when you understand how your skills work, you can make that decision yourself.

Hope this helps.

PS - You can definitely heal vet dungeons with a sorc. You can probably reliably heal vet trials with a sorc as well, but I wouldn't advise it unless you're very very sure of yourself and have a bunch of friends with you. You can't rely on pugs.

I have been leader of guilds and leader of raids. Kicking people based on their character choice is never ever a good idea and you are 100% an A hole. When you lead raids, yes you can prevent people from coming on certain classes, its your raid you are leading it and you need to think of what is best for the run. But kicking people from a guild simply for having a healer of the "wrong" class in your character selection on your account is ***. Sure its his guild and he can do what he likes, but that type of action does not deserve any defense nor excuse. That line of thinking is what makes so many people refrain from even thinking about joining raid guilds. We don't need that type of stuff in the community. The extreme elitism that fosters arrogant people that looks down on people for their choices, sure not everything works but everyone that makes choices like that don't always act like it is the best thing in the world either. There is a difference with going off Meta and saying off meta is the true meta and being a D about it.

Again GM does not deserve to be defended or excuses.

I bolded that to make sure it was visible. I have a question, since how you worded it doesn't make it clear. Are you calling me an A hole or the GL ?

If it's the former, well, thanks, always nice to hear that from strangers.

If it's the latter (I think it is, but I can't be sure), it doesn't matter, it's his guild, you are free to leave it, but he can do w/e he wants, even kicking people at random. Is it fair ? It doesn't matter.

I was trying to make two points:

1) Let's try to understand why people do stuff before formulating a judgement, if our intention is to have a constructive discussion about it, instead of calling each other names (which seems to me the better option, I might be wrong about that). I tried to do that by presenting fairly common grievances from raid leaders and guild leaders.

2) In the end, if you join a guild, you're joining somebody else's vision, which may or may not include your input, so, it doesn't matter if that person's vision is wrong, if that person doesn't allow for a certain thing, well, guess what, you can leave the guild. It serves absolutely no purpose to point fingers and call other names, because it doesn't matter, there are hundreds of other guilds out there, or you can make your own with your vision. If you're worried about losing friends, you can add them to your friend list, or to your own guild, you can be a member of up to 5 guilds, it's not like your membership to a specific guild precludes you to join other.

To conclude, is that GL an A hole ? Yes, no, It doesn't matter.

To reinforce my point, the OP left the guild, and all is well, I believe.

I guess both points weren't clear enough.

As for effective healing, as I already said, every class has a tanking tree, a dps tree and a healing tree. Some are more effective than others, some are just plain easier to use.

If you, as a player, are skilled enough, you can use any class to heal in any situation. If you're not, templar is the easiest choice. Not the only choice, just the easiest.

Hope this clarifies.

Have a good day.

Saturn · August 2017

mystfit wrote: »

So, one of the guilds I was in...at least until yesterday...asked (told) all healers other then templars to get out of the guild. He followed up the chat rant with an email rant saying the same thing. He's the guild leader, he's well within his rights to run the guild as he sees fit. His issue seemed to be with providing stam to the group. Something I gather he felt made other healers useless. I am curious as to how many agree with his stance? <edited> To clarify, I'm curious about the stance of a healer needs to be a resource manager as well. It is my pleasure to assist the group however I can with whatever tools I may have (in this case a sorc). Also, as I had never grouped with the GL, this wasn't a personal attack at me nor did I take it as one.

Did the GL not know about the change to Necrotic Orbs? Templars used to have monopoly on being able to return stamina to the group, but they don't have that any longer. They are probably still marginally better than other healers (if you min/max), but having played Nightblade, Warden, Templar and Sorcerer healers I feel like templars aren't the only ones that can do it effectively, but a lot of people just gravitate towards that class because in most other MMOs the templar would be a bog-standard healer class, and if they aren't aware that the class can do other roles then they will likely just assume that it's only a class for healers and that all other classes are worthless in that role. Personally I think the quality of a healer depends on the player, and I've personally seen a lot of good non-templar heals and a lot of terrible templars healers. Just like any other class/role/race combo it entirely depends on the players, regardless of how much other people want to tell that it's not the case.

Artis · August 2017

DocFrost72 wrote: »

@Artis

Why are they the best?

Because the best use them.

Yes, but why would the best use them?

Wel, obviously, they are the best, which is why the best use them.

why are they the best, though?

(Circle )

All classes have burst heals and area heals.

All classes can restore resources.

All classes can keep you alive.

All classes can heal.

Ergo, all classes can be healers. Can we agree on the above four statements?

It's not a circle, the logic is simple - they are the best, that's why the best use them. They aren't the best because the best use them. Period. No circle. Now why are they the best? That was described above already.

Sure, all classes can heal. I never argued with that. Just like all classes can DPS and all classes can tank. And all objects can be used to hammer nails.

cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

"Effectively" is NOT an absolute term. It's relative. Effective = the best possible way, as opposed to ineffective = gets the job done, but slower/worse.

You really should look up the word 'effective' in a dictionary.

Amusing thread.

Kind of wondering why all these stam-dps are doing it wrong by not playing a magica character for the high end runs that define how the game must be played at all levels.

Nope. You should. Or take a basic physics text book. Ever heard about the efficiency coefficient (or coefficient of performance/COP)? Just the fact that it's not equal to 0 doesn't mean that something is effective.

@Artis:

At the risk of being publically shunned for picking on someone that likely rode the short bus to school, 'effective' and 'efficient' ARE TWO DIFFERENT WORDS AND NOT SYNONYMOUS.

To be 'effective', something only needs to get the job done.

If you plan on debating by making up new meanings to words, you should have the courtesy to tell others the parameters and rule-sets.

What does physics have to do with a videogame set in a fictional universe with fictional characters?

Oh and if you are just pretending to be ***, good job!

I'm not making anything up. In the world of scientists, researchers, and students working on technical degrees they are synonyms. Then again, most of us don't speak English as their first language, yet we all understand each other and can communicate on conferences and such.

OK then. They are different words. When I used effective, I meant efficient almost everywhere above.

Nothing changes in my argument. Certain classes are more efficient than others in performing certain roles. They are dps/healer/tank classes. The game has dps/healer/tank classes. Ideally, all 5 classes are at the same time dps, healer, and tank class. But it's never been the case so far.

But sure. This (video below) is effective.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li223z2CreQ

And I never said you can't hammer nails with the head. Go ahead, it will get the job done. So it's effective. Is it efficient though? No.

p.s. Personal insults indeed should get you publicly shunned, they definitely don't help your case, too. Unfortunately, all we can hope for is that you get a warning or a ban. Wow, shaming a person for speaking more than 1 language. I hope you speak multiple languages perfectly, otherwise I don't see why you'd think such comments are justified.

oh and physics has everything to do with the game. Because the gamers who discuss the game live in the real world and use the words defined in the real world.

Flameheart wrote: »

Btw, concerning the non-templar-healer-discussion, it's like 10:0 for Artis now. Wanne finish that now before it gets ridiculous? I am able to play all my chars as healers in 4-man-stuff and you won't realize a difference (all have Worm + SPC), but I know what classes I would take to a vet trial where you want to improve (when the status isn't clear yet) or just want a good score or if you are hunting for achievements.

I know I know, but they still don't understand they are wrong. It got ridiculous when I was leading 5:0 and they didn't stop. It's ok, though, we should educate less experienced players. Who knows? Maybe in future they will be on leader boards, too. And with all due respect, I'm sure I'd realize the difference. Although any class would get the job done. I've seen good players healing with every class. But they still think I'm arguing that only templars can heal, when that's not at all what I'm saying. And Idk how many times I need to say that it's not what I'm saying.

cbaudersub17_ESO · August 2017

Artis wrote: »

I'm not making anything up. In the world of scientists and researchers they are synonyms. Then again, most of us don't speak English as their first language, yet we all understand each other and can communicate on conferences and such.

As a scientist and researcher, they are NOT synonyms. You ARE making stuff up. Just stop.

DocFrost72 · August 2017

Artis wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

@Artis

Why are they the best?

Because the best use them.

Yes, but why would the best use them?

Wel, obviously, they are the best, which is why the best use them.

why are they the best, though?

(Circle )

All classes have burst heals and area heals.

All classes can restore resources.

All classes can keep you alive.

All classes can heal.

Ergo, all classes can be healers. Can we agree on the above four statements?

It's not a circle, the logic is simple - they are the best, that's why the best use them. They aren't the best because the best use them. Period. No circle. Now why are they the best? That was described above already.

I'll just go ahead and stop asking you to break that circle, it seems to be hard for you. Have fun on your templar healer! I'm being sincere btw

Artis · August 2017

cbaudersub17_ESO wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

I'm not making anything up. In the world of scientists and researchers they are synonyms. Then again, most of us don't speak English as their first language, yet we all understand each other and can communicate on conferences and such.

As a scientist and researcher, they are NOT synonyms. You ARE making stuff up. Just stop.

No, I'm not. It is what it is. Colloquially and in real sciences where there's a lot of foreigners.

Which, again, isn't relevant. Simply replace effective with efficient in my previous comments. Because that's what I always had in mind, and actually that's what I was trying to explain when I was linking stuff. Turns out they are not synonyms for native-speakers? Okay.

DocFrost72 wrote: »

I'll just go ahead and stop asking you to break that circle, it seems to be hard for you. Have fun on your templar healer! I'm being sincere btw

The circle is broken in the very thing you quoted. There IS no circle. Also, I don't have a templar healer. Nor do I care what you heal with. I'm only in it for the truth and common sense.

[Deleted User] · August 2017

Hello again,

Seeing as this thread has not improved by much since the last in-thread notice, we've gone ahead and closed it down. As always please be sure to keep the Forum Rules in mind to prevent any future thread closures or action on one's own account.

Thank you for understanding.