Medium Armor in PvP needs a buff!

Hexys · August 2017

Hello everyone! This is a topic to talk about medium armor in PvP, due to the lack of healing, mitigation and undodgable skills/ultimates survivability is really lacking and are mostly limited to dodge rolling and sprinting to achieve line of sight.

Right now there is one class that can perform quite well in medium armor due to class skills, this is the stamina nightblade which has shadow image (teleport) and cloak (stealth) to avoid alot of damage. I would say a stamina sorcerer can do some ok moves because of streak (teleport). Stamina templar, dragonknight and warden in medium armor are just totally under-performing compared to what heavy armor has to offer.

Playing medium armor successfully has always come down to raw damage, pressure your enemies so much they don't have the time to return damage, with proc-sets giving them a chance to achieve this pressure but while they are getting nerfed, medium will become even more weaker.

I have thought many times about this issue and tried to fix the puzzle but I can't seem one fit without making medium to OP again and making heavy armor useless. It is not just medium armor I have to look to, it's also how this will affect light and heavy to keep them balanced together and a unique swing to all 3.

This topic is to ask you for more ideas, I know @DDuke made a similar topic but I'd like to start one here which focuses on how to buff medium without making it to OP.

This is an idea and my way of thinking.
I thought about giving medium armor increased critical damage/healing by quite a bit, this will boost their potential of pressure and keep their heals strong. Stamina Nightblade might become to OP if this would be applied so most likely a nerf to the assassination's passives should come in place. Or not? Because that might nerf a big chunk of magicka nightblade damage, this is what I mean with changing things and ideas without breaking anything else. For medium armor I haven't managed to fix a puzzle yet so that's why I'm asking you if you have any suggestions or ideas to make medium armor viable again in PvP!

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-1-
@olsborg said the following: Medium armor should get a passive wich increases your crit resist by X amount if youre wearing 5 or more pieces of medium armor.

Spoiler

I think this idea is great, it doesn't only give PvP medium armor an extra form of being tanky, as @Waffennacht said it's natural to don't get critically hit while being very agile. Now this chance won't affect PvE as NPC's can't crit!

-2-
@olsborg also said the following: And my favorite: Medium armor skill (shuffle) requires 5 or more medium armor pieces to be usable.

Spoiler

This suggestion has came up many times over the last months and I still agree to this, heavy armor together with shuffle is to strong, being able to mitigate alot of damage and also have passive dodge chance is to much for heavy and should only apply to medium armor to make them more balanced!

-3-
@SodanTok and @Vapirko said the following: Changing agility passive from 12% to 300-400

Spoiler

I like this idea to, it gives medium armor more freedom to stack max stamina, recovery, crit or maybe utilize a 5th-piece set without loosing to much on damage and so gaining survivability.

--- --- ---

A nice summon up from @SodanTok about how the ranks of gear are supposed to be.

Spoiler

(Supposed) Damage output
Medium armor >= Light Armor > Heavy Armor
Penetration increases your damage output by some %. For every lost % the one with highest damage output lost the most damage. (Not to mention proc sets that are scaling just with penetration and CP) => Medium loses most.

(Supposed) Resistance (counter to penetration)
Heavy armor > Medium Armor > Light Armor
Losing penetration increases survivability the more resistance you had => Heavy gets most;
Light loses most, but they get to have shields.
Plus if you were over penetrating light or medium and now you aren't you simply deal similar damage to them while losing damage versus heavy.

(Supposed) value of penetration (how much is penetration worth given access to sources and their size)
Light Armor > Medium Armor > Heavy Armor
Light armor has passive that is the only penetration (other than trial medium armor set TFS) with high value. That value relatively increased by nerfing all other sources

--- --- ---

We had some great suggestions here! Awesome!

Asmael · August 2017

This issue isn't with medium armor.

The issue is with the damage that is currently achievable. We have reached a TTK that has reached the level of patch 1.6, minus the fact that every defensive move (dodge, streak, block, shields) just got nerfed over time again and again and again, and finally the removal of possible counterplay (double reflects, more and more undodgeable and unblockable abilities). Yet we still have 50% damage reduction from Battle spirit now, when 1.6 only reduced it by 15 or 20%...

There's no point getting a bonus to speed and dodge roll when every friggin' undodgeable move is going to kill you in 2s top regardless as a medium armor user. It's a question of not getting killed in a single shot combined with being to outheal or not all incoming damage.

And this isn't an issue solely in PvP, but PvE as well, you just need to look at the damage gap between the ceiling and the floor to realize they are centuries apart, when it used to at least be smaller than it currently is.

You want medium armor to be viable for something else than NBs? (Re)Introduce counterplay.

Xsorus · August 2017

Umm, My full Medium armor Stam Sorc Right now is a beast; Impregnable medium with well fitted on all pieces with viper set and tremors is nasty as hell.

You can swap out Tremors and run Storm or Selenes and wreck people on DK/Templar just the same.

Personally next patch i'm swapping over to Impregnable/Eternal Hunt/Mighty i think on my Templar.

Oh yea wanted to add, if you slot my current setup on the Stam Sorc to a Stam Warden, you'll instant kill pretty much most classes.

vMaick · August 2017

They should simply make it so that medium (5 or more) users gain 10 seconds of minor evasion when an ability is cast(5% dodge chance) That will help stamina builds in pvp and it will also help stamina builds in pve without ruining the balance or anything.

I mean, you're in medium armor, which is designed for quick and agile movement. Seems only natural:)

Araviel2 · August 2017

I like to wait and see, both heavy and medium is going to get a indirect boost to their survivability thanks to the sharpen nerf.
and there are currently some medium armor configurations that are just strong af, mainly involving the Impregnable set with Well-fitted/Reinforced. there will also be a boost to crit chance in the upcoming patch that means medium armor builds easily could get up to 99% crit.

but if i was to throw out an idea i would suggest a boost to movement speed of the Athletics passive with 1%, as the current 3% is not that significant, a slight boost to this could also maybe make 7/7 builds viable instead of the current norm of 5/1/1

Vapirko · August 2017

I like the suggestion some people have put forth that medium armor grant the user an amount of wpn damage that doesn't scale so that it isn't necessary to stack into wpn damage to get the most out of the bonus. This would let medium armor users build toward mitigation or regen more and still get a solid damage benefit from medium.

technohic · August 2017

Would be ok if they undid the cost reduction nerf and the no regen while sprinting.

SodanTok · August 2017

Just throwing in some suggestion I read or made over the past year

Like Vapirko said, changing agility passive from 12% to 300-400
Changing evasion on shuffle to something not related do dodge (since if you you can dodge you are going to dodge not to rely on some dodge proc chance). My idea is always around blade cloak buff (AoE damage reduction), but there is concern that it could help even more to light/heavy (tho that is already true with evasion) and some DW lovers would lost the flavor
Increasing overall damage resistance during dodge roll (so it works like weaker block against undodgeable stuff)
Increasing critical resistance during dodge roll or even constantly
Minor Mending/Vitality during dodge roll
Limiting dodge roll cost stacking to 3-4 (sounds strong, but lets be real, NB and stam sorc are already 'dodging' the stack cooldown time by cloak and streak allowing them dodge roll more often than everyone else even if there was stack limit)
Completely reworking the way block works. Where you are losing stamina the longer you hold it (on top of block cost) instead of disabling regen. Potentially huge impact on PVE tanking, could be reworked into losing stam regen the longer you hold it. Obviously with some cool off period after stopping block
Same thing as block for sprint/sneak

Solariken · August 2017

SodanTok wrote: »

Changing evasion on shuffle to something not related do dodge (since if you you can dodge you are going to dodge not to rely on some dodge proc chance). My idea is always around blade cloak buff (AoE damage reduction), but there is concern that it could help even more to light/heavy (tho that is already true with evasion) and some DW lovers would lost the flavor

Some really excellent suggestions there @SodanTok. The one I'm quoting is by far the most important. If ZOS insists on RNG-based survival for medium armor, Major Evasion should be replaced with a new parry chance buff (Major Deflection?). It could be something like a 30% chance to reduce incoming direct damage attacks by 50% with ZERO CC avoidance. This would smooth out survivability and remove a layer of frustration for both you and those attacking you. Note that this buff would remain active during dodgeroll.

SodanTok · August 2017

Solariken wrote: »

show previous quotes

SodanTok wrote: »

Changing evasion on shuffle to something not related do dodge (since if you you can dodge you are going to dodge not to rely on some dodge proc chance). My idea is always around blade cloak buff (AoE damage reduction), but there is concern that it could help even more to light/heavy (tho that is already true with evasion) and some DW lovers would lost the flavor

Some really excellent suggestions there @SodanTok. The one I'm quoting is by far the most important. If ZOS insists on RNG-based survival for medium armor, Major Evasion should be replaced with a new parry chance buff (Major Deflection?). It could be something like a 30% chance to reduce incoming direct damage attacks by 50% with ZERO CC avoidance. This would smooth out survivability and remove a layer of frustration for both you and those attacking you. Note that this buff would remain active during dodgeroll.

Oh you were the one that made that suggestion ~6 months ago. Funny how stuff changes over time. Back then I was against it, because it was 20% evasion and most stuff was dodgeable. Now we have 15% and what kills medium is the undodgeable stuff

olsborg · August 2017

This first one is not my idea, I dont remember who's it was so shout out if you know.

1.Medium armor should get a passive wich increases your crit resist by X amount if youre wearing 5 or more pieces of medium armor.

2.Damage mitigation while doding, something like 10% less dmg from dots while dodging for instance.

3.Passive armor penetration of 150 per piece if wearing 5 or more pieces of medium armor.

4.And my favorite: Medium armor skill (shuffle) requires 5 or more medium armor pieces to be usable.

5.I also like the idea of giving medium armor users X% more dmg/healing with crits if wearing 5 or more medium armor pieces.

Strider_Roshin · August 2017

They need to make it so only ground AoEs are undodgeable. Then medium will be viable again.

Exceptions: curse, and power of the light.

With that said, any ability that can't be blocked shouldn't be shielded either.

DDuke · August 2017

Well, you can't really give medium armor more damage - that's clear to anyone who's not playing a zero dmg/healing impregnable build (that actually works way better on heavy armor).

What medium armor needs is more survivability so that it can actually deal damage before dying.

As it stands, one Soul Assault is enough to melt a stamina build no matter how much crit resistance you have. You either take 15k damage (assuming atleast 80k Soul Assault tooltip) and spend 17,2k stamina blocking, or you die.

Bird spam? Dead as well (without cloak), nothing outheals that. Sweeps? Same thing, if Templar can actually aim them.

...I could go on.

Lacking the mitigation/healing received passive from heavy & the shields of light armor, what medium armor needs is a dodge roll that actually accomplishes something

Waffennacht · August 2017

Crit resistance makes a lot of sense! You're all agile and your opponent can't get a solid critical hit.

I like that one

Hexys · August 2017

That's alot of nice comments already man! I'm gonna summon them up and edit them to the main post later today, thanks for all the feedback, we definitely got some good ideas going on here!

Ocelot9x · August 2017

Crit resist would be nice,so people can try different build. Maybe not massive,but 1/1,5k would be ok

Xsorus · August 2017

DDuke wrote: »

Well, you can't really give medium armor more damage - that's clear to anyone who's not playing a zero dmg/healing impregnable build (that actually works way better on heavy armor).

What medium armor needs is more survivability so that it can actually deal damage before dying.

As it stands, one Soul Assault is enough to melt a stamina build no matter how much crit resistance you have. You either take 15k damage (assuming atleast 80k Soul Assault tooltip) and spend 17,2k stamina blocking, or you die.

Bird spam? Dead as well (without cloak), nothing outheals that. Sweeps? Same thing, if Templar can actually aim them.

...I could go on.

Lacking the mitigation/healing received passive from heavy & the shields of light armor, what medium armor needs is a dodge roll that actually accomplishes something

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w1N804zC8c

6mins in

This build is honestly the tankiest i've run in PvP

and its full medium.

Waffennacht · August 2017

Xsorus wrote: »

show previous quotes

DDuke wrote: »

Well, you can't really give medium armor more damage - that's clear to anyone who's not playing a zero dmg/healing impregnable build (that actually works way better on heavy armor).

What medium armor needs is more survivability so that it can actually deal damage before dying.

As it stands, one Soul Assault is enough to melt a stamina build no matter how much crit resistance you have. You either take 15k damage (assuming atleast 80k Soul Assault tooltip) and spend 17,2k stamina blocking, or you die.

Bird spam? Dead as well (without cloak), nothing outheals that. Sweeps? Same thing, if Templar can actually aim them.

...I could go on.

Lacking the mitigation/healing received passive from heavy & the shields of light armor, what medium armor needs is a dodge roll that actually accomplishes something

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w1N804zC8c

6mins in

This build is honestly the tankiest i've run in PvP

and its full medium.

I see tremorscale, so the build will change in horns yes?

DDuke · August 2017

Xsorus wrote: »

show previous quotes

DDuke wrote: »

Well, you can't really give medium armor more damage - that's clear to anyone who's not playing a zero dmg/healing impregnable build (that actually works way better on heavy armor).

What medium armor needs is more survivability so that it can actually deal damage before dying.

As it stands, one Soul Assault is enough to melt a stamina build no matter how much crit resistance you have. You either take 15k damage (assuming atleast 80k Soul Assault tooltip) and spend 17,2k stamina blocking, or you die.

Bird spam? Dead as well (without cloak), nothing outheals that. Sweeps? Same thing, if Templar can actually aim them.

...I could go on.

Lacking the mitigation/healing received passive from heavy & the shields of light armor, what medium armor needs is a dodge roll that actually accomplishes something

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w1N804zC8c

6mins in

This build is honestly the tankiest i've run in PvP

and its full medium.

Yes, but trust me - it'd be tankier/better as a full heavy (or 5/1/1 heavy) setup, especially with impen/sturdy gear instead of well-fitted (dodge cost reduction helps you against those stam builds in the video, but that's about it).

And here's why, assuming you run 5x Viper 5x Impregnable & 2x Tremor S&B setup like you wrote:

Zero weapon damage from gear, this means Agility passive doesn't benefit you much at all - 252 weapon damage to be precise (and that's with 3x weapon dmg glyphs on jewelry & warrior mundus).
Zero stam regen from gear, unless you run them on jewelry - you get around 230 regen only from Wind Walker passive.
You run S&B, which means you can actually block most of the dmg from things like that Soul Assault in the video without taking as massive hit to stamina pool as other weapons - it still stops stam regen entirely while blocking though, which is another reason to run heavy for the Constitution returns.

But yes, no one is saying you can't 1vX in medium (it's still perfectly doable) - beating semi-decent players that actually heal/shield themselves & use undodgeable abilities on you (with good high stat gear) is another matter.

S&B definitely helps against the undodgeable stuff, but if I were to play a tank I'd just go heavy armor.

I'm also curious to see how the damage with this build will be after proc set nerfs.

GreenSoup2HoT · August 2017

You may disagree with me but there are two mechanics that changed that drastically effected 1 play-style more then all of the play-styles in the game.

-No Block Regen
-No Sprint Regen

Any time a medium armour player wants to reposition, use a well timed block we stop our stamina regen. Well this is a huge problem. I personally tend to re-actively block and sprint a lot and this ends up costing me a lot of resources compared to just healing through the damage which i don't think is right.

I could have 3000+ regen and if i try to sprint and utilise what my armour skill-line excels at i just end up losing regen ticks in the process. This is completely counter productive.

How to fix these issues:

Change Sprint and Blocking to exponential cost stacking instead of preventing stamina regen. The problem with sprinting and blocking is with people who do it forever. People who use sprint and block pro-actively are just playing smart and should not be punished for it.

These exponential cost increases should be on a 4-second cool-down just like roll-dodge. That way you still retain your stamina regeneration ticks but if you don't give your self a 4 second break you will end up destroying your stamina pool, just like spamming dodge roll like a dummy.

Just to comment on blocking. The S+B ultimate would count as blocking towards this cool-down. This prevents people from perma-blocking with ult regen builds and just trolling. I would much rather see people play smart then abuse ult-regen stam dk's with s+b ult.

Strider_Roshin · August 2017

Yeah it's pretty sad that I have better cardio in real life than I do in this game.

technohic · August 2017

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

You may disagree with me but there are two mechanics that changed that drastically effected 1 play-style more then all of the play-styles in the game.

-No Block Regen
-No Sprint Regen

Any time a medium armour player wants to reposition, use a well timed block we stop our stamina regen. Well this is a huge problem. I personally tend to re-actively block and sprint a lot and this ends up costing me a lot of resources compared to just healing through the damage which i don't think is right.

I could have 3000+ regen and if i try to sprint and utilise what my armour skill-line excels at i just end up losing regen ticks in the process. This is completely counter productive.

How to fix these issues:

Change Sprint and Blocking to exponential cost stacking instead of preventing stamina regen. The problem with sprinting and blocking is with people who do it forever. People who use sprint and block pro-actively are just playing smart and should not be punished for it.

These exponential cost increases should be on a 4-second cool-down just like roll-dodge. That way you still retain your stamina regeneration ticks but if you don't give your self a 4 second break you will end up destroying your stamina pool, just like spamming dodge roll like a dummy.

Just to comment on blocking. The S+B ultimate would count as blocking towards this cool-down. This prevents people from perma-blocking with ult regen builds and just trolling. I would much rather see people play smart then abuse ult-regen stam dk's with s+b ult.

It's silly to me that I can now sprint better on my mag sorc now than I can on my 2 stam builds ever since I took the morph of dark deal that spends magicka to get health and stam. Really was to make sure I can break free to avoid stun lock deaths but now I can hit major expedition, sprint, and return stam to full, and repeat. Same goes for blocking

Malic · August 2017

Araviel2 wrote: »

I like to wait and see, both heavy and medium is going to get a indirect boost to their survivability thanks to the sharpen nerf.
and there are currently some medium armor configurations that are just strong af, mainly involving the Impregnable set with Well-fitted/Reinforced. there will also be a boost to crit chance in the upcoming patch that means medium armor builds easily could get up to 99% crit.

but if i was to throw out an idea i would suggest a boost to movement speed of the Athletics passive with 1%, as the current 3% is not that significant, a slight boost to this could also maybe make 7/7 builds viable instead of the current norm of 5/1/1

Well said sir.

With the sharpened nerf, its going to be a hell of a lot easier to get away with med armor on a stam melee toon. You can now but heavy is still dam good with the right set. Heavy still will be but to their credit, I think ZOS is getting to the point where CP choices (if you play CP campaigns) are really going to help create unique builds. I mean they have already but the sharpened nerf and the past regen nerf looks like it might work out for more -committed- play.

GreenSoup2HoT · August 2017

technohic wrote: »

show previous quotes

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

You may disagree with me but there are two mechanics that changed that drastically effected 1 play-style more then all of the play-styles in the game.

-No Block Regen
-No Sprint Regen

Any time a medium armour player wants to reposition, use a well timed block we stop our stamina regen. Well this is a huge problem. I personally tend to re-actively block and sprint a lot and this ends up costing me a lot of resources compared to just healing through the damage which i don't think is right.

I could have 3000+ regen and if i try to sprint and utilise what my armour skill-line excels at i just end up losing regen ticks in the process. This is completely counter productive.

How to fix these issues:

Change Sprint and Blocking to exponential cost stacking instead of preventing stamina regen. The problem with sprinting and blocking is with people who do it forever. People who use sprint and block pro-actively are just playing smart and should not be punished for it.

These exponential cost increases should be on a 4-second cool-down just like roll-dodge. That way you still retain your stamina regeneration ticks but if you don't give your self a 4 second break you will end up destroying your stamina pool, just like spamming dodge roll like a dummy.

Just to comment on blocking. The S+B ultimate would count as blocking towards this cool-down. This prevents people from perma-blocking with ult regen builds and just trolling. I would much rather see people play smart then abuse ult-regen stam dk's with s+b ult.

It's silly to me that I can now sprint better on my mag sorc now than I can on my 2 stam builds ever since I took the morph of dark deal that spends magicka to get health and stam. Really was to make sure I can break free to avoid stun lock deaths but now I can hit major expedition, sprint, and return stam to full, and repeat. Same goes for blocking

Patch after patch stamina players keep loosing their identity and it sucks. No more stealth damage. No block regen. No sprint regen. Doll dodge cost stack. No stealth regen while moving. All of these changes basically effecting only stamina for the most part.

Xsorus · August 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

show previous quotes

Xsorus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Well, you can't really give medium armor more damage - that's clear to anyone who's not playing a zero dmg/healing impregnable build (that actually works way better on heavy armor).

What medium armor needs is more survivability so that it can actually deal damage before dying.

As it stands, one Soul Assault is enough to melt a stamina build no matter how much crit resistance you have. You either take 15k damage (assuming atleast 80k Soul Assault tooltip) and spend 17,2k stamina blocking, or you die.

Bird spam? Dead as well (without cloak), nothing outheals that. Sweeps? Same thing, if Templar can actually aim them.

...I could go on.

Lacking the mitigation/healing received passive from heavy & the shields of light armor, what medium armor needs is a dodge roll that actually accomplishes something

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w1N804zC8c

6mins in

This build is honestly the tankiest i've run in PvP

and its full medium.

I see tremorscale, so the build will change in horns yes?

Yes, Swapping to Storm and swapping to Heroic Slash instead.

Viper will also be swapped out, not decided on it yet; thinking Eternal Hunt.

This would let me swap on another Well Fitted piece on shield and Dual Axes (I don't have axes) for the bleed.

Xsorus · August 2017

DDuke wrote: »

show previous quotes

Xsorus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Well, you can't really give medium armor more damage - that's clear to anyone who's not playing a zero dmg/healing impregnable build (that actually works way better on heavy armor).

What medium armor needs is more survivability so that it can actually deal damage before dying.

As it stands, one Soul Assault is enough to melt a stamina build no matter how much crit resistance you have. You either take 15k damage (assuming atleast 80k Soul Assault tooltip) and spend 17,2k stamina blocking, or you die.

Bird spam? Dead as well (without cloak), nothing outheals that. Sweeps? Same thing, if Templar can actually aim them.

...I could go on.

Lacking the mitigation/healing received passive from heavy & the shields of light armor, what medium armor needs is a dodge roll that actually accomplishes something

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w1N804zC8c

6mins in

This build is honestly the tankiest i've run in PvP

and its full medium.

Yes, but trust me - it'd be tankier/better as a full heavy (or 5/1/1 heavy) setup, especially with impen/sturdy gear instead of well-fitted (dodge cost reduction helps you against those stam builds in the video, but that's about it).

And here's why, assuming you run 5x Viper 5x Impregnable & 2x Tremor S&B setup like you wrote:
Zero weapon damage from gear, this means Agility passive doesn't benefit you much at all - 252 weapon damage to be precise (and that's with 3x weapon dmg glyphs on jewelry & warrior mundus).

Zero stam regen from gear, unless you run them on jewelry - you get around 230 regen only from Wind Walker passive.

You run S&B, which means you can actually block most of the dmg from things like that Soul Assault in the video without taking as massive hit to stamina pool as other weapons - it still stops stam regen entirely while blocking though, which is another reason to run heavy for the Constitution returns.

But yes, no one is saying you can't 1vX in medium (it's still perfectly doable) - beating semi-decent players that actually heal/shield themselves & use undodgeable abilities on you (with good high stat gear) is another matter.

S&B definitely helps against the undodgeable stuff, but if I were to play a tank I'd just go heavy armor.

I'm also curious to see how the damage with this build will be after proc set nerfs.

I'm sitting at 24k in both resists right now, and can dodge on will right now, I can bloody sprint forever....as well. I'm sitting at 1500 or so Stamina Recovery but that'll be changing next patch probably when I swap things out. I don't need it so much as I have Dark Deal which is super useful...I also don't use Warrior Mundus and would never use it. Most of my damage right now is from proccing so I'll be forced to drop it next patch some by going Storm and using an infused weapon probably. I would never run full heavy now on a Stamina Sorc because I like to be able to dodge, and Cost Reduction is a big thing for Medium. In fact i've been pretty much swapping all my Heavy Armor users out of that to medium because of the loss of Cost Reduction. The Nerf to Constitution doesn't help.....Now I'm a Stamina sorc so I do have Dark Deal to help... but I don't wanna be casting Dark Deal all the time because it can be interrupted.

Next patch like I said will be Eternal hunt/impregnable/Storm and i'll be swapping out Stamina recovery Mundus for something else...probably Thief or Tower.

GreenSoup2HoT · August 2017

Xsorus wrote: »

show previous quotes

Waffennacht wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Well, you can't really give medium armor more damage - that's clear to anyone who's not playing a zero dmg/healing impregnable build (that actually works way better on heavy armor).

What medium armor needs is more survivability so that it can actually deal damage before dying.

As it stands, one Soul Assault is enough to melt a stamina build no matter how much crit resistance you have. You either take 15k damage (assuming atleast 80k Soul Assault tooltip) and spend 17,2k stamina blocking, or you die.

Bird spam? Dead as well (without cloak), nothing outheals that. Sweeps? Same thing, if Templar can actually aim them.

...I could go on.

Lacking the mitigation/healing received passive from heavy & the shields of light armor, what medium armor needs is a dodge roll that actually accomplishes something

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w1N804zC8c

6mins in

This build is honestly the tankiest i've run in PvP

and its full medium.

I see tremorscale, so the build will change in horns yes?

Yes, Swapping to Storm and swapping to Heroic Slash instead.

Viper will also be swapped out, not decided on it yet; thinking Eternal Hunt.

This would let me swap on another Well Fitted piece on shield and Dual Axes (I don't have axes) for the bleed.

In my opinion the only play-style that can pull off Eternal Hunt is a Wood-Elf Stamblade. Simply because i think roll-dodging is a waste of resources now considering all the undodgeable stuff. They have such high stamina recovery and Eternal Hunt works with the placestyle to deny gap closer spam then cloak after the roll dodge.

Depending on what class your playing i could offer suggestions on what to replace viper with.

I currently run Viper and i do have some options that i was thinking about swapping too. Cryodills Crest is actually a really good reliable healing debuff that can be enhanced with befoul cp. Combined with disease enchant you can healing debuff by 62% easily. However since the crit bonuses have been enchanced by so much and nirnhound buffed, hundings rage with nirnhound weapons may make a comeback to enhance stamina healing by quiet a bit.

Xsorus · August 2017

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

show previous quotes

Xsorus wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Well, you can't really give medium armor more damage - that's clear to anyone who's not playing a zero dmg/healing impregnable build (that actually works way better on heavy armor).

What medium armor needs is more survivability so that it can actually deal damage before dying.

As it stands, one Soul Assault is enough to melt a stamina build no matter how much crit resistance you have. You either take 15k damage (assuming atleast 80k Soul Assault tooltip) and spend 17,2k stamina blocking, or you die.

Bird spam? Dead as well (without cloak), nothing outheals that. Sweeps? Same thing, if Templar can actually aim them.

...I could go on.

Lacking the mitigation/healing received passive from heavy & the shields of light armor, what medium armor needs is a dodge roll that actually accomplishes something

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w1N804zC8c

6mins in

This build is honestly the tankiest i've run in PvP

and its full medium.

I see tremorscale, so the build will change in horns yes?

Yes, Swapping to Storm and swapping to Heroic Slash instead.

Viper will also be swapped out, not decided on it yet; thinking Eternal Hunt.

This would let me swap on another Well Fitted piece on shield and Dual Axes (I don't have axes) for the bleed.

In my opinion the only play-style that can pull off Eternal Hunt is a Wood-Elf Stamblade. Simply because i think roll-dodging is a waste of resources now considering all the undodgeable stuff. They have such high stamina recovery and Eternal Hunt works with the placestyle to deny gap closer spam then cloak after the roll dodge.

Depending on what class your playing i could offer suggestions on what to replace viper with.

I currently run Viper and i do have some options that i was thinking about swapping too. Cryodills Crest is actually a really good reliable healing debuff that can be enhanced with befoul cp. Combined with disease enchant you can healing debuff by 62% easily. However since the crit bonuses have been enchanced by so much and nirnhound buffed, hundings rage with nirnhound weapons may make a comeback to enhance stamina healing by quiet a bit.

Could try Crest on my Stamplar to see if it works.

But thinking Leviathan and impregnable with him.

Will try hunt first with Stamsorc and if it doesn't work will try something else.

SodanTok · August 2017

Araviel2 wrote: »

I like to wait and see, both heavy and medium is going to get a indirect boost to their survivability thanks to the sharpen nerf.
and there are currently some medium armor configurations that are just strong af, mainly involving the Impregnable set with Well-fitted/Reinforced. there will also be a boost to crit chance in the upcoming patch that means medium armor builds easily could get up to 99% crit.

but if i was to throw out an idea i would suggest a boost to movement speed of the Athletics passive with 1%, as the current 3% is not that significant, a slight boost to this could also maybe make 7/7 builds viable instead of the current norm of 5/1/1

Indirect boost indeed, but valued worst.

(Supposed) Damage output
Medium armor >= Light Armor > Heavy Armor
Penetration increases your damage output by some %. For every lost % the one with highest damage output lost the most damage. (Not to mention proc sets that are scaling just with penetration and CP) => Medium loses most.

(Supposed) Resistance (counter to penetration)
Heavy armor > Medium Armor > Light Armor
Losing penetration increases survivability the more resistance you had => Heavy gets most;
Light loses most, but they get to have shields.
Plus if you were over penetrating light or medium and now you aren't you simply deal similar damage to them while losing damage versus heavy.

(Supposed) value of penetration (how much is penetration worth given access to sources and their size)
Light Armor > Medium Armor > Heavy Armor
Light armor has passive that is the only penetration (other than trial medium armor set TFS) with high value. That value relatively increased by nerfing all other sources

Regarding crit, who cares about 99% crit. The more is not the better. You need to have damage and crit damage first to do good critical hits. Guess what is not critting? Proc sets. Guess what needs stacking weapon damage to get damage? Agility passive. And what is best? Light armor is getting the most crit anyway. Medium has to slot 7! (meaning all) medium armor pieces to get 0.47% more crit chance. It is losing 1% over 5pieces of light when slotting just 6.

tl;dr
Medium gets the least or is middle of the pack with these changes to crit and penetration. Overall strength of the armor types remains same, because the numbers are small. But there was no buffs. At best medium got the same out of it as everyone, at worst it lost the most.

Aedaryl · August 2017

I personally think about few fix that would make MA competitive again :

- 5 pieces medium armor should give : Minor mending for 1.5s when you dodge roll. For Shuffle, make it bound to medium armor.

- Remove the 100% critical HoTs chance form shadowy disguise to not make NB OP.

- A soul assault ticks nerfs : It will be the same damage, but it will drain less stamina when you block it.

What do you think ?

Killset · August 2017

Xsorus wrote: »

show previous quotes

DDuke wrote: »

Well, you can't really give medium armor more damage - that's clear to anyone who's not playing a zero dmg/healing impregnable build (that actually works way better on heavy armor).

What medium armor needs is more survivability so that it can actually deal damage before dying.

As it stands, one Soul Assault is enough to melt a stamina build no matter how much crit resistance you have. You either take 15k damage (assuming atleast 80k Soul Assault tooltip) and spend 17,2k stamina blocking, or you die.

Bird spam? Dead as well (without cloak), nothing outheals that. Sweeps? Same thing, if Templar can actually aim them.

...I could go on.

Lacking the mitigation/healing received passive from heavy & the shields of light armor, what medium armor needs is a dodge roll that actually accomplishes something

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w1N804zC8c

6mins in

This build is honestly the tankiest i've run in PvP

and its full medium

This is nearly a full proc build that is dependent on damage that most likely won't available next patch. I would guess a lot of your "tankiness" comes from pressure that won't be present in a month. And for the record, medium is still brutal on a stamblade.