Difference in ap for defense vs. offense is killing pvp

SirMontyII · August 2017

NA - Vivec. Group of AD take a DC keep and leave - DC don't defend because "it ain't worth it". DC takes the keep back while AD is taking another undefended keep. Rinse, repeat.
Was bad, but since the "holiday" has gone over-board.

MarzAttakz · August 2017

I honestly think GW2 got their AvAvA mechanics down correctly.

Defensive ticks should be higher than offensive ticks.
Keeps should be up-gradable by the owning guild.
Higher tier keeps = more AP for both defenders and attackers.
Out-numbered buff should be in place to offset EMP buffs and pop-imbalance.
Defensive buff in place if faction owns fewer than X Keeps.

It's been a while since I played but those are ones that come to mind.

davey1107 · August 2017

I don't recall when the AP rewards were last updated, but it seems like defense ticks were dropped waaaaaaay down. I recall big battles with 50k ticks...now it's hard to get 10k in a massive defense.

abigfishy · August 2017

I am fairly sure I got a 3k defensive tick but it was 2 v 1. I didn't know that the numbers affected the defensive AP grant.

Xsorus · August 2017

MarzAttakz wrote: »

I honestly think GW2 got their AvAvA mechanics down correctly.

Defensive ticks should be higher than offensive ticks.
Keeps should be up-gradable by the owning guild.
Higher tier keeps = more AP for both defenders and attackers.
Out-numbered buff should be in place to offset EMP buffs and pop-imbalance.
Defensive buff in place if faction owns fewer than X Keeps.

It's been a while since I played but those are ones that come to mind.

Umm gw2 was mostly just a ring around the rosey type deal. People avoided defended keeps to take undefended ones because it was faster and yielded more.

At certain points you'd get some good fights but most of the time it was the most populated realm Just steamrolling keeps

MarzAttakz · August 2017

Xsorus wrote: »

MarzAttakz wrote: »

I honestly think GW2 got their AvAvA mechanics down correctly.

Defensive ticks should be higher than offensive ticks.
Keeps should be up-gradable by the owning guild.
Higher tier keeps = more AP for both defenders and attackers.
Out-numbered buff should be in place to offset EMP buffs and pop-imbalance.
Defensive buff in place if faction owns fewer than X Keeps.

It's been a while since I played but those are ones that come to mind.

Umm gw2 was mostly just a ring around the rosey type deal. People avoided defended keeps to take undefended ones because it was faster and yielded more.

At certain points you'd get some good fights but most of the time it was the most populated realm Just steamrolling keeps

Not while I played and not with the WvWvW focused guilds on the server at the time (Desolation), perhaps it was different for you. Either way I don't see how what you've just said is any different to how things are in ESO, there simply is no incentive to defend anything, and no reason to not faction hop when you're outnumbered.

Merlin13KAGL · August 2017

I do like the outnumbered buff idea, to offset Xv1's and low pop situations.

If they can come up with sigils for Maelstrom and "Power Stones" for BG, I'm guessing there could be some short term buffs added to Cyrodiil beyond the occasional Ayleid well.

Promote some points of interest beyond resources, IC, and the big Emp(eror)ty ring...

Sylosi · August 2017

MarzAttakz wrote: »

I honestly think GW2 got their AvAvA mechanics down correctly.

Defensive ticks should be higher than offensive ticks.
Keeps should be up-gradable by the owning guild.
Higher tier keeps = more AP for both defenders and attackers.
Out-numbered buff should be in place to offset EMP buffs and pop-imbalance.
Defensive buff in place if faction owns fewer than X Keeps.

It's been a while since I played but those are ones that come to mind.

GW2 has the same issues as this game and frankly nearly every RvR game mode does. In GW2 you have the expressions 'karma train' & 'PvDoor' for people basically going round capping undefended (or virtually undefended objectives) either because the populations in the servers of the matchup are imbalanced or because you have servers avoiding each other.

The basic problem with all these RvR modes is they are a total joke competitively because of populations imbalances, coverage imbalances (nightcapping, etc), how easy they are to cheat with second accounts, that most are on the flawed premise of 1v1v1, etc. (ESO actually handles population imbalances way better than GW2, where you can have completely imbalanced servers locked in a matchup for a week and it is basically a dead matchup in every sense).

So really unless someone is very slow on the uptake or wants to live in some state of delusion "winning" is basically meaningless, which is the essential problem, why defend (other than for a fight if you like that), when it will make no real difference and who cares who "wins" a joke competition?

MarzAttakz wrote: »

Not while I played and not with the WvWvW focused guilds on the server at the time (Desolation), perhaps it was different for you.

Then I guess you played early in the game, when some people were still deluding themselves (despite the fact it should have been obvious that it would not matter what Deso did when Vizunah had way more people outside of primetime so were always going to out PPT you).

That state of delusion on Desolation came to something of an end when Anet added WvW tournaments, because it became abundantly clear in those tournaments even to those slow on the uptake / deluding themselves just what a joke WvW was as a competition because the imbalances in population, coverage and double teaming, etc became glaringly obvious.

It became so glaringly obvious, that Anet actually stopped doing the WvW tournaments, because they noticed that they resulted in a permanent population decrease, apparently the reality of just what a joke WvW was as a competition was too much for a lot of people.

So for most of the game, unless you were on a national server, most hardcore WvW players, played fights, with no concern about "winning" the PPT, beyond it's effect on the ranking and which other servers they wanted to play against. (which sometimes meant deliberately losing to drop rank).

ESO is no different, people cared more earlier in the game, then reality set in...

MarzAttakz · August 2017

Sylosi wrote: »

MarzAttakz wrote: »

I honestly think GW2 got their AvAvA mechanics down correctly.

Defensive ticks should be higher than offensive ticks.
Keeps should be up-gradable by the owning guild.
Higher tier keeps = more AP for both defenders and attackers.
Out-numbered buff should be in place to offset EMP buffs and pop-imbalance.
Defensive buff in place if faction owns fewer than X Keeps.

It's been a while since I played but those are ones that come to mind.

GW2 has the same issues as this game and frankly nearly every RvR game mode does. In GW2 you have the expressions 'karma train' & 'PvDoor' for people basically going round capping undefended (or virtually undefended objectives) either because the populations in the servers of the matchup are imbalanced or because you have servers avoiding each other.

The basic problem with all these RvR modes is they are a total joke competitively because of populations imbalances, coverage imbalances (nightcapping, etc), how easy they are to cheat with second accounts, that most are on the flawed premise of 1v1v1, etc. (ESO actually handles population imbalances way better than GW2, where you can have completely imbalanced servers locked in a matchup for a week and it is basically a dead matchup in every sense).

So really unless someone is very slow on the uptake or wants to live in some state of delusion "winning" is basically meaningless, which is the essential problem, why defend (other than for a fight if you like that), when it will make no real difference and who cares who "wins" a joke competition?

MarzAttakz wrote: »

Not while I played and not with the WvWvW focused guilds on the server at the time (Desolation), perhaps it was different for you.

Then I guess you played early in the game, when some people were still deluding themselves (despite the fact it should have been obvious that it would not matter what Deso did when Vizunah had way more people outside of primetime so were always going to out PPT you).

That state of delusion on Desolation came to something of an end when Anet added WvW tournaments, because it became abundantly clear in those tournaments even to those slow on the uptake / deluding themselves just what a joke WvW was as a competition because the imbalances in population, coverage and double teaming, etc became glaringly obvious.

It became so glaringly obvious, that Anet actually stopped doing the WvW tournaments, because they noticed that they resulted in a permanent population decrease, apparently the reality of just what a joke WvW was as a competition was too much for a lot of people.

So for most of the game, unless you were on a national server, most hardcore WvW players, played fights, with no concern about "winning" the PPT, beyond it's effect on the ranking and which other servers they wanted to play against. (which sometimes meant deliberately losing to drop rank).

ESO is no different, people cared more earlier in the game, then reality set in...

Yeah I played from beta up until the HOT expansion, after which the abuse against Elementalists became too much and my WvW guild (EXG) fractured due to GvG ego and a clash in leadership ideologies. The nightcap issues were real, vizunah dominance was real. I did transfer to a pvp guild in tier 3 at one point but soon transferred back to Deso and fought purely for the good fight, did my best together with the guild, and hopefully made a slight difference to the outcome of matches.

But I'm going to have to agree with most of what you said, the jaded realist cynic inside can't do anything else, however the optimist hopes that one day somebody will come up with a workable solution to global pvp modes.

MalagenR · August 2017

The only way to solve this issue is to attach significant rewards, monetary most likely, to owning a keep for a significant amount of time. It should be multiplicative.

1 HR = 1,000 gold
2 HR = 10,000 gold
3 Hr = 100,000 gold
4 hr = 200,000 gold

etc. etc. whatever you get the point

Beardimus · August 2017

Agreed that AP ticks have changed alot and it's a shame. D ticks used to be mega. Can't a forim maths whizz help us understand what you get now?

Thunderknuckles · August 2017

Sylosi nailed it. These WvWvW settings are popular for a little while then the meaningless tedium of it sets in and populations drop off hard.

Alphaa · August 2017

If 30 defenders defend the keep vs 30 attackers they should get the equal ammount to what the attackers would have got if they took it (6k+death AP)

thedude33 · August 2017

Xsorus wrote: »

MarzAttakz wrote: »

I honestly think GW2 got their AvAvA mechanics down correctly.

Defensive ticks should be higher than offensive ticks.
Keeps should be up-gradable by the owning guild.
Higher tier keeps = more AP for both defenders and attackers.
Out-numbered buff should be in place to offset EMP buffs and pop-imbalance.
Defensive buff in place if faction owns fewer than X Keeps.

It's been a while since I played but those are ones that come to mind.

Umm gw2 was mostly just a ring around the rosey type deal. People avoided defended keeps to take undefended ones because it was faster and yielded more.

At certain points you'd get some good fights but most of the time it was the most populated realm Just steamrolling keeps

Exactly. If you did stay behind and try and defend ? You would get spammed hate tells ...from your own realm.

Rianai · August 2017

thedude33 wrote: »

Exactly. If you did stay behind and try and defend ? You would get spammed hate tells ...from your own realm.

You are most likely talking about "Edge of the Mists" which was originally meant as some kind of overflow and turned into a farm map for PvE players, but it doesn't have much to do with actual WvW. In 3 years of GW2 i had never experienced anyone complaining about defenders in the real WvW maps, even though it can happen there too that zergs ignore each other and just flip undefended "paper" towers. Players usually (try to) defend upgraded towers and keeps though.

Nutshotz · August 2017

I miss the old D ticks. The new D ticks are garbage. We can go on and on for hours between either bleakers or chalamo and end up with a 15k tick where as a 2hr D tick would net us prolly 35k or the famous 80-100k D ticks that were enjoyable.

Now I don't think we will ever see those type of ticks again with the rework they did

If they went and made it like someone mentioned a while back about xyz of deaths, number of players around the destination, adding in the AP of taking the destination and multiplying it by for However long the fight lasted. D ticks would be awesome but that's just a fantasy of did even considering that

So let's say

130 deaths + 70 players + 7.8k <keep take> x <xyz of minutes or hours>

The dreams of that D tick

Sanctum74 · August 2017

I'm all for increasing D ticks for people that actually defend the keep. Unless you have oils on flags or are downstairs defending flags then your D tick should be cut in half.

Get so sick of wiping 3/4 of the group 2-3 times and everybody sits upstairs light attacking and watching the enemies revive.

br0steen · August 2017

davey1107 wrote: »

I don't recall when the AP rewards were last updated, but it seems like defense ticks were dropped waaaaaaay down. I recall big battles with 50k ticks...now it's hard to get 10k in a massive defense.

You see what happened was is that they decreased defensive ap gains and increased offensive gain in an attempt to spread the map out and reduce lag rather than, oh idk, upgrading hardware. They then threw out some bans on individuals for behavior they "figured would happen due to the change".

Sound about right?

vamp_emily · August 2017

During the event, I seen DC lose the map in a matter of minutes because they don't think defense is important. Then when they don't have any keeps they say things like 'we don't have the population' but 10 minutes later DC will have all their home keeps back.

The Vivec Conspiracy:
Group Leaders from all factions are AP keep swapping.

thedude33 · August 2017

Rianai wrote: »

thedude33 wrote: »

Exactly. If you did stay behind and try and defend ? You would get spammed hate tells ...from your own realm.

You are most likely talking about "Edge of the Mists" which was originally meant as some kind of overflow and turned into a farm map for PvE players, but it doesn't have much to do with actual WvW. In 3 years of GW2 i had never experienced anyone complaining about defenders in the real WvW maps, even though it can happen there too that zergs ignore each other and just flip undefended "paper" towers. Players usually (try to) defend upgraded towers and keeps though.

I agree edge of mists was even worse. Still, yes I received tells for " slowing things up" when i put up arrow carts to defend.

QuebraRegra · August 2017

SirMontyII wrote: »

NA - Vivec. Group of AD take a DC keep and leave - DC don't defend because "it ain't worth it". DC takes the keep back while AD is taking another undefended keep. Rinse, repeat.
Was bad, but since the "holiday" has gone over-board.

Hmm, I need to get back in there

Neoauspex · August 2017

I think it should be harder to capture a keep than it is to defend it. I'd like to see some sort of limit to the availability of offensive siege weapons, i.e. weapons that are purchased at keeps can only be set up at a keep you own and weapons purchased at the capturable towns (or new, capturable siege factory locations?) can be set up anywhere, etc. I just drop siege like candy, if it were rarer there might not be the keep swapping rotations that are currently just more efficient.

Twohothardware · August 2017

This definitely needs to change. The constant keep flipping because it's easier and more rewarding to just attack empty keeps rather than defend a keep being zerged is just dumb. There should be more incremental ticks for being at a keep under siege and the ticks should be based on the number of enemy players in the area. Taking empty or barely defended keeps should give the minimum AP.

Karivaa · August 2017

During double ap, we got a tic at arrius for 50k.

Karivaa · August 2017

The problem with the way things are now is that when players want and need ap for the leaderboards, they do not defend and they take any empty keeps or resources they can. The emp and his or her group is usually defending and the defensive tics are terrible. I love how Zos changed the ap so people are motivated to take keeps and move around the map, but the d tics need to increase just a little bit.

IcyDeadPeople · August 2017

SirMontyII wrote: »

NA - Vivec. Group of AD take a DC keep and leave - DC don't defend because "it ain't worth it". DC takes the keep back while AD is taking another undefended keep. Rinse, repeat.
Was bad, but since the "holiday" has gone over-board.

It's a lot better than it used to be, where you were sort of penalized for offense and many players only cared about defense ticks / farming resources.

Excluding maybe some of those groups during holiday week, most players definitely want to keep their faction keeps and will help defend.

Zbigb4life · August 2017

SirMontyII wrote: »

NA - Vivec. Group of AD take a DC keep and leave - DC don't defend because "it ain't worth it". DC takes the keep back while AD is taking another undefended keep. Rinse, repeat.
Was bad, but since the "holiday" has gone over-board.

+1