About the Sorc Shield stacking issue...to the devs...

TheCaptainJosh · July 2017

Shield stacking sorcs haven't been a problem for me since the Dark Brotherhood changes... They can't spam shields if they can't break CC

Rikkof · July 2017

Zoliru wrote: »

Rikkof wrote: »

BAIT THREAD
Report and move away

there is nothing Bait in this thread.....

What part of "everyone can agree that...bla bla" You did not read ?
Biased , bait and switch.

Morgul667 · July 2017

It is true that to kill a sorc you just need to CC it right before its shield wears down

Feanor · July 2017

I actually agree to the baseline of the OP - if shields get adjusted, Sorcs need to get defenses somewhere else, be it a burst heal other than the Matriarch or more mitigation through Light Armour.

olsborg · July 2017

2 things about shields that I dont like.

1. Is the way some classes (sorcs) can stack up to 25k+ worth of shields without any kind of cooldown.
2. When said player is low on hp, lets say 10%, he starts shieldstacking and the missing hp counts for nothing, and youre just as far away from killing him as if he had 100% hp.

Magdalina · July 2017

olsborg wrote: »

2 things about shields that I dont like.

1. Is the way some classes (sorcs) can stack up to 25k+ worth of shields without any kind of cooldown.
2. When said player is low on hp, lets say 10%, he starts shieldstacking and the missing hp counts for nothing, and youre just as far away from killing him as if he had 100% hp.

You're still getting executes through on a low health sorc though, as opposed to say a low health templar who'd heal up instead of shield.

Slack · July 2017

Again, are you serious?
I am also getting by a few sorc things every time I play, but people are infesting the forums with their cry for nerf.
Give it a break man, and see what the next updates and balancing changes will bring.

Countcalorie · July 2017

sorc=easy mode.anyone who says differently only plays sorc.
and yes I have played sorc before.boring playstyle and stupidly op.

Chilly-McFreeze · July 2017

Countcalorie wrote: »

sorc=easy mode.anyone who says differently only plays sorc.
and yes I have played sorc before.boring playstyle and stupidly op.

Thank the lord you have enlightened us. Totally convinced me bc everyone who disagrees has to be wrong. Thank you so much.

With that out of the way I'd like to thank all these vet-trial leaderbord sorc tanks and healers for their dedication to withstand all the forum tears and still playing their OP BiS for everything nerf-requiered class to the fullest.

/sarcasm off

Malmai · July 2017

Rework shield stacking... You use timed burst just so he can reapply shields... Its stupidly ***...

red_emu · July 2017

I agree about buffing light armor (which isn't going to happen - ever! We only just got a Nerf).

Magica harness (I actually prefer dampen magic) is way too weak in nonCP. I mean I have 43k magicka but I can only summon a few seconds shield worth 7k? Come on. Most PvP players can light attack for more than that!

Why not make it so that you can have one shield active at the time? In one hand, I gave up on mag sorc because constantly staking Shields and AC is just not fun - feels way too robotic. In the other hand, all the troll players doing it in their sleep are annoying as hell! You literally can't kill them!!! I know the issue is also with my warden who is soooo weak in PvP unless you have a bunch of bodyguards with you but I can't help it. I love the artistic flourish the warden has and being able to support my group with heals, buffs etc. but on 1v1 I stand no chance against a sorc. It's a great class to play with but also a walking easy target for other players.

(And don't get me started on the piegon spamming! Yes you can spam it alright, but you'll be out of magica in a few seconds. All it takes for the enemy after taking a first hit (which in nonCP is not much of a hit, let's be honest) is to block. Then I can spam away until my magicka pool is out and boom - I'm dead from haunting curse + c.frag + pulse since the powerful heals warden is allegedly capable off heal like a draugr coughing up some dust.

Buff warden in one way or another. That's my only wish.

Countcalorie · July 2017

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Countcalorie wrote: »

sorc=easy mode.anyone who says differently only plays sorc.
and yes I have played sorc before.boring playstyle and stupidly op.

Thank the lord you have enlightened us. Totally convinced me bc everyone who disagrees has to be wrong. Thank you so much.

With that out of the way I'd like to thank all these vet-trial leaderbord sorc tanks and healers for their dedication to withstand all the forum tears and still playing their OP BiS for everything nerf-requiered class to the fullest.

/sarcasm off

your welcome.You should be very enlightened now go and delete your mag sorc and bring peace to the forums.
In all seriousness play xbox eu.then get to me about sorcs.
oh and sorc tanks???????sorc healers are at least somewhat viable but sorc tanks??????
clearly you play with the potatoes.nothing wrong with that but dont act smart about a meta you've clearly not seen,played or heard about(much too anybodys amazement)
play how you want is the biggest lie Ive ever heard.but hey the ability to tank 2-8 350cp+ people as a mediocre player and then destro ult them into oblivion without using any tank gear with full divines is perfectly balanced.

Chilly-McFreeze · July 2017

red_emu wrote: »

I agree about buffing light armor (which isn't going to happen - ever! We only just got a Nerf).

Magica harness (I actually prefer dampen magic) is way too weak in nonCP. I mean I have 43k magicka but I can only summon a few seconds shield worth 7k? Come on. Most PvP players can light attack for more than that!

Why not make it so that you can have one shield active at the time? In one hand, I gave up on mag sorc because constantly staking Shields and AC is just not fun - feels way too robotic. In the other hand, all the troll players doing it in their sleep are annoying as hell! You literally can't kill them!!! I know the issue is also with my warden who is soooo weak in PvP unless you have a bunch of bodyguards with you but I can't help it. I love the artistic flourish the warden has and being able to support my group with heals, buffs etc. but on 1v1 I stand no chance against a sorc. It's a great class to play with but also a walking easy target for other players.

(And don't get me started on the piegon spamming! Yes you can spam it alright, but you'll be out of magica in a few seconds. All it takes for the enemy after taking a first hit (which in nonCP is not much of a hit, let's be honest) is to block. Then I can spam away until my magicka pool is out and boom - I'm dead from haunting curse + c.frag + pulse since the powerful heals warden is allegedly capable off heal like a draugr coughing up some dust.

Buff warden in one way or another. That's my only wish.

1) Removing every form of shield stacking would make healing ward barely useless and cause severe healing problems for non-pet sorcs.
I think I will wait for todays pts balance update to oblivivion before making up my mind on shields.

2) Then you do something wrong. I run 27K resists and 3k impen and got hit for well over 7k with a cliff racer in BG. Don't know if that is the definition of "not much of a hit".

Thanks to third photobuckets restriction on third party hosting here it is as a link:
i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o711/Chilly-McFreeze/dr%20-%20cliff%207k%20edit_zps1biiplqb.png

Countcalorie · July 2017

red_emu wrote: »

I agree about buffing light armor (which isn't going to happen - ever! We only just got a Nerf).

Magica harness (I actually prefer dampen magic) is way too weak in nonCP. I mean I have 43k magicka but I can only summon a few seconds shield worth 7k? Come on. Most PvP players can light attack for more than that!

Why not make it so that you can have one shield active at the time? In one hand, I gave up on mag sorc because constantly staking Shields and AC is just not fun - feels way too robotic. In the other hand, all the troll players doing it in their sleep are annoying as hell! You literally can't kill them!!! I know the issue is also with my warden who is soooo weak in PvP unless you have a bunch of bodyguards with you but I can't help it. I love the artistic flourish the warden has and being able to support my group with heals, buffs etc. but on 1v1 I stand no chance against a sorc. It's a great class to play with but also a walking easy target for other players.

(And don't get me started on the piegon spamming! Yes you can spam it alright, but you'll be out of magica in a few seconds. All it takes for the enemy after taking a first hit (which in nonCP is not much of a hit, let's be honest) is to block. Then I can spam away until my magicka pool is out and boom - I'm dead from haunting curse + c.frag + pulse since the powerful heals warden is allegedly capable off heal like a draugr coughing up some dust.

Buff warden in one way or another. That's my only wish.

Couldn't have worded it better myself.hate getting salt about them pigeons. like what am I gonna do?light attack with my duel swords???
gave up on the destro warden as it was just a weaker magsorc.
the offensive rotation on a duel wield warden looks like this:shalks,flies,cliffracerX2-3,shalk,flies etc.

Countcalorie · July 2017

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

red_emu wrote: »

I agree about buffing light armor (which isn't going to happen - ever! We only just got a Nerf).

Magica harness (I actually prefer dampen magic) is way too weak in nonCP. I mean I have 43k magicka but I can only summon a few seconds shield worth 7k? Come on. Most PvP players can light attack for more than that!

Why not make it so that you can have one shield active at the time? In one hand, I gave up on mag sorc because constantly staking Shields and AC is just not fun - feels way too robotic. In the other hand, all the troll players doing it in their sleep are annoying as hell! You literally can't kill them!!! I know the issue is also with my warden who is soooo weak in PvP unless you have a bunch of bodyguards with you but I can't help it. I love the artistic flourish the warden has and being able to support my group with heals, buffs etc. but on 1v1 I stand no chance against a sorc. It's a great class to play with but also a walking easy target for other players.

(And don't get me started on the piegon spamming! Yes you can spam it alright, but you'll be out of magica in a few seconds. All it takes for the enemy after taking a first hit (which in nonCP is not much of a hit, let's be honest) is to block. Then I can spam away until my magicka pool is out and boom - I'm dead from haunting curse + c.frag + pulse since the powerful heals warden is allegedly capable off heal like a draugr coughing up some dust.

Buff warden in one way or another. That's my only wish.

1) Removing every form of shield stacking would make healing ward barely useless and cause severe healing problems for non-pet sorcs.
I think I will wait for todays pts balance update to oblivivion before making up my mind on shields.

2) Then you do something wrong. I run 27K resists and 3k impen and got hit for well over 7k with a cliff racer in BG. Don't know if that is the definition of "not much of a hit".

Thanks to third photobuckets restriction on third party hosting here it is as a link:
i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o711/Chilly-McFreeze/dr%20-%20cliff%207k%20edit_zps1biiplqb.png

then your versing potatoes with 0 impen.try versing a sorc.enjoy those 2-4 hits only to have him destro ult and shield to full!

Chilly-McFreeze · July 2017

@Countcalorie

I changed my mag sorc to stam many moons ago and never looked back.
Taking a look at Xbox EU will be a little difficult for me, I play on PC EU.

You missed my point. The line with the sorc healers/tanks was a bit ironic, to show that they indead are ahead in the dps race but nowhere as viable as tanks or healers as DK or Templars. Like no one screams "nerf DK, they are the go-to choice as tanks" but everyone complains about sorcs being the best PvE Damage Dealer.

And your line with the 2-8 potatoes... I guess you mean doing that as a sorc? While this may can be pulled of you would facetank them far easier on another class. Shields scale quite badly with increasing numbers of opponents. Most good 1vX'ers could run over 2... or more potatoes.

And the last post about 0 impen.. don't know how that relates to my post. But if you die to ONE destro ult, jokes are on you.

Koensol · July 2017

Houshiki wrote: »

Not entirely sure if this is just another "NERF SORCS" thread, but I'll bite.

Firstly, everyone has access to shields in one form or another. Magicka harness, igneous shield, blazing shield, bone shield, healing ward, etc.

Secondly, there are ways to get around shields, like oblivious dmg and shield-breaker. But there's not set or buff in general that boosts shields other than boosting bastion with cp.

Thirdly, shields are GREATLY reduced in size while in Cyrodiil or other pvp areas. Seriously, even with bastion, a 23k+ shield gets reduced to 7-8k. Plus there's the normal costs for casting shields.

Lastly, shields are the sorcs' defense. Similar to the dks' tankiness, templars' self-healing, and nbs' cloaking being their class specific defenses.

Don't you see how powerful an 8k uncrittable shield is? In non cp a NB can blow his full burst on a shieldstacked sorc, with the result being that you have destroyed all their shields and maybe did 25% dmg to his health. Sorc hasn't really taken any considerable dmg yet and just reshields and hots himself up. How can you honestly compare this to cloak? I mean really? If you mess up as a stam nb you are *** dead. It is so much harder to play (non proctard setup). Sorcerer has so much more room for error. Can't tell you how many times I have burst a sorc down to 5% health, where he just stacks his shields, turns around and nukes you.

Cloak is really good, I won't deny it, but once you have a curse on you, or a mark, or a magelight, or volatile armor proc (when using sheer venom), or power of the light, or any of the other 1000 things that breaks cloak, you are ***. Oooooh but we can use oblivion enchants and shieldbreaker to counter shields!! Wow im sure that will completely diminish and counter 3 stacked shields in once second!

How is it that we have to do so much work to get a sorc to the point where you can really kill him, when he can just blast you any minute with his queued burst dmg while having his fortress of shields up. They can turn the tide of a battle in any second, only thing they need to do is a well times frag on top of curse and mage wrath. And this can all be done while coming back from 5% health. The survivability they have just doesn't fit with the amount damage they do. Period.

RainfeatherUK · July 2017

''Sick of these nerfs threads. Stop ruining the game!!!''

This. It appears people have difficulty understanding the philosophical premise of sorcerers/wizards/mages..any other reference you like..in high fantasy settings.

They use high intelligence, spell craft and wisdom to augment their defence. This is part of what distinguishes them from the other classes of magical persuasion. Arcane Archer, Battlemage, and other varieties follow the same deal.

Thats a mere tip of the spear of giving characters identity. So do feel free to shove your 'l2p' homogenization brigade propoganda out the window thanks. Much like the person I quoted I'm sick of it.

People think mages aren't notorious for using magical barriers and shields across the genre's and landscapes? Wrong. People think others are ok with a class having boring abilities that already limit gameplay, with short timers and lag affecting use? Wrong.

Wrobel himself said, that things should pop in to use - and be fun to use. Because you struggle with it, it means its effective. Which is the point of someone using their bloody abilities!

Balance it yes. Continue to do that. But drastically change, remove, or ruin classes more? No. Ok, think im clear on that now >.<

Countcalorie · July 2017

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

@Countcalorie

I changed my mag sorc to stam many moons ago and never looked back.
Taking a look at Xbox EU will be a little difficult for me, I play on PC EU.

You missed my point. The line with the sorc healers/tanks was a bit ironic, to show that they indead are ahead in the dps race but nowhere as viable as tanks or healers as DK or Templars. Like no one screams "nerf DK, they are the go-to choice as tanks" but everyone complains about sorcs being the best PvE Damage Dealer.

And your line with the 2-8 potatoes... I guess you mean doing that as a sorc? While this may can be pulled of you would facetank them far easier on another class. Shields scale quite badly with increasing numbers of opponents. Most good 1vX'ers could run over 2... or more potatoes.

And the last post about 0 impen.. don't know how that relates to my post. But if you die to ONE destro ult, jokes are on you.

never said I died to one destro ult.its the added pressure that it gives when used with skills.I usually just heal through.thing is on Xbox eu theres a severe lack of potatoes at least on the ad side.most of them are on ep unfortunately for me

the 0 impen thing is about the cliffracers,your not gonna get any more then 2-4k against anyone with impen,if you go against a sorc with impen then your screwed.
that being said warden is incredibly easy to use.
and nowhere does anybody complain about classes being too op in pve,exept the self entitled "top 1%" people.
there shields are incredibly powerfull but nerfing-removing would only remove there tankyness,they would still have the best burst in the game.(which ranged classes shouldn't have,melee classes should be a lot better in that department)to compensate for a shield nerf though I would buff dark deal/exchange to heal a lot more and give resources to allies securing them into other rolls then just dps.

Stopnaggin · July 2017

Kalante wrote: »

MakoFore wrote: »

this guy must have gotten 1vXd by a mag sorc. if theyre so strong- play one- i think you ll find theyre strong because theyre bloody hard to play. i daresay playing mag sorc requires more button presses, weapon swaps , rebuffing and skill hits, more line of sight movement and kiting awareness than any other class- arguably with mag blade. the killing blow from fury needs fixing. but compared to magplar and mag dk- they simply require u to do more - to get a win.
ZOS got it right with mag sorc, in terms of lore, game tradition, what a sorc is - everything, except of the pets- which suck- but other than that- leave the class alone. its awesome to play- and if anything it should be the template for future classes.

mag sorc is easy mode, why are you making look to be as if it's hard? for example, kitting as mag sorc is not that hard when you literally have the best mobility skill in the game. Don't even say cloak because cloak doesn't even works and it gets revealed so easy by curse, streak, grothar, skoria, destro ult, infernal guardian lightning staff, gap closers, power of the light and TONS of other stuff.

Also as button presses you mean shield stacking?

Mag sorc and nb are the 2 hardest classes to master. Bar swapping is a requirement for mag sorcs, buffs and debuff, shielding and dps. It is more complicated than holding block and spamming jabs.

redshirt_49 · July 2017

Sorcs are not OP?

Which other class can pop enough shields to tank ridiculous damage while popping immovable potion, activating eye of flame and then just walking through an enemy group, killing most of them in seconds?

SHIELDS ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO MAKE YOU INVINCIBLE! You're wearing light armor pieces of cloth for crying out loud! The fact that you can take more damage and do more damage than a stamblade wearing heavier armor is dumb. Have one or the other, but not both.

Rickter · July 2017

at launch, people complained about Dragonknights.

Then it was templars

now its sorcs

poor nightblads left out in the cold. soon TM

Zordrage · July 2017

Rikkof wrote: »

Zoliru wrote: »

Rikkof wrote: »

BAIT THREAD
Report and move away

there is nothing Bait in this thread.....

What part of "everyone can agree that...bla bla" You did not read ?
Biased , bait and switch.

1: i created the thread sooo i read everything ? i think... maybe....

2: im not sure you know what a bait thread is.....

this topic is about raising a concern that happened too many times with classes in other MMOs

they nerf something that is a bit too strong without compensation then the player base finds out that that was the only thing that keeped THAT class in a good viable state state..... and now its just bad and a pain in the ass to play and Months goes on before they get a fix.

Tommy_The_Gun · July 2017

I don't know if someone here said that but the whole "shield stacking" is not a problem here.

The problem is how this shields works. Those shield completely ignore critical dmg and penetration. If you have 10K health and additional + 20 / 25 K dmg shield then in order to even start dealing dmg to the health bar you need to deal 20 - 25K raw dmg without critical dmg and penetration. And you need to deal that dmg fast enough so sorcerer could not stack new shields.

In PvP this means that in order to achieve that you either have to have a proper gear sets (the one that deals oblivion dmg + oblivion dmg enchants) or just use a lot of proc-sets....

(and sometimes even that is not enough).

In PvE - I don't think that mobs deal critical dmg... so this crit-immunity seems useless.

The problem starts in PvP - because shields basically give you critical dmg immunity sorcerers can run all armour in divines and infused traits and still just totally ignore critical dmg.
Because of that sorcerer is the only class that can go full DPS build (glass cannon ?) and still be way more tanky....

No other class can do that.

Malmai · July 2017

Dont know why shields are not crittable. They nerfed procs and more to come so it would be fair that should be crittable...

Biro123 · July 2017

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I don't know if someone here said that but the whole "shield stacking" is not a problem here.

The problem is how this shields works. Those shield completely ignore critical dmg and penetration. If you have 10K health and additional + 20 / 25 K dmg shield then in order to even start dealing dmg to the health bar you need to deal 20 - 25K raw dmg without critical dmg and penetration. And you need to deal that dmg fast enough so sorcerer could not stack new shields.

I PvP this means that in order to achieve that you either have to have a proper gear sets (the one that deals oblivion dmg + oblivion dmg enchants) or just use a lot of proc-sets.... (and sometimes even that is not enough).

In PvE - I don't think that mobs deal critical dmg... so this crit-immunity seems useless.

The problem starts in PvP - because shields basically give you critical dmg immunity sorcerers can run all armour in divines and infused traits and still just totally ignore critical dmg.
Because of that sorcerer is the only class that can go full DPS build (glass cannon ?) and still be way more tanky....

No other class can do that.

Lol.

Don't take crit damage = true.

Ignores penetration = also true.

But ignoring penetration actually benefits the attacker because shields have no resistances. Let's make up an example..

Player is in heavy armour with 30k resists. You hit him with 15k penetration, so only 15k of his resists apply. If that hit was for a 10k tooltip, that means the player takes roughly 8k damage.

Now if that same player cast a shield, and the same attacker hit with the same ability, the shield doesn't have 30k resists. It has 0. So effectively you overpen the shield. It takes the full 10k damage.

I wish people would only call for nerfs to mechanics when they actually understood those mechanics.

CyrusArya · July 2017

Rickter wrote: »

at launch, people complained about Dragonknights.

Then it was templars

now its sorcs

poor nightblads left out in the cold. soon TM

lol its because 95% of crying and whining comes from nightblades. Of course they aren't gonna complain about their own class.

Septimus_Magna · July 2017

Malmai wrote: »

Dont know why shields are not crittable. They nerfed procs and more to come so it would be fair that should be crittable...

The shield size cannot crit either, unlike heals. If I'm running 50% spell crit my heals are effectively 25% stronger. This is in balance because the dmg dealer can crit for more dmg and the dmg taker can crit for more healing.

Damage shields cannot crit when you cast them, 25% value wasted compared to heals. Making dmg crit on shields that have no mitigation would make no sense.

If you want to crit on my shield, I want my shield to scale up with my spell crit or be able to crit when I cast it.

You cannot have your cake and eat it

Tommy_The_Gun · July 2017

Biro123 wrote: »

But ignoring penetration actually benefits the attacker because shields have no resistances.

We all know how it works in practise... If you have a lot of penetration then you do more dmg to higher armoured targets.

So lets say that the target wears some light armour with only 10K resistance. I Have 10K penetration and I deal 4K dmg .
In this scenario armour is totally ignored because I had the same penetration as the target's armour value.

Lets now add some dmg shield.

I have 10K penetration but it does not matter because I will deal 4K dmg with or without penetration - because shields have no resistance. It acts like a dmg buffor. So penetration value does not count when it comes to attacking a dmg shield.
It is ignored until dmg shield will be gone.

So, if you don't have a lot of base dmg (let say 2K instead of 4K) but you compensate this with a high penetration build (lot of CP + some gear set that gives a lot of penetration + sharpened weapon and I have like 15K penetration instead of 10K ).
In the end you will do like 2K dmg instead of 4K against dmg shield....

Conclusion: If you have a build that relies of penetration & high crit chance in order to deal a lot of dmg - against dmg shield it will be useless.

Biro123 · July 2017

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

But ignoring penetration actually benefits the attacker because shields have no resistances.

We all know how it works in practise... If you have a lot of penetration then you do more dmg to higher armoured targets.

So lets say that the target wears some light armour with only 10K resistance. I Have 10K penetration and I deal 4K dmg .
In this scenario armour is totally ignored because I had the same penetration as the target's armour value.

Lets now add some dmg shield.

I have 10K penetration but it does not matter because I will deal 4K dmg with or without penetration - because shields have no resistance. It acts like a dmg buffor. So penetration value does not count when it comes to attacking a dmg shield.
It is ignored until dmg shield will be gone.

So, if you don't have a lot of base dmg (let say 2K instead of 4K) but you compensate this with a high penetration build (lot of CP + some gear set that gives a lot of penetration + sharpened weapon and I have like 15K penetration instead of 10K ).
In the end you will do like 2K dmg instead of 4K against dmg shield....

Conclusion: If you have a build that relies of penetration & high crit chance in order to deal a lot of dmg - against dmg shield it will be useless.

Ah, so you do understand.. Your original comment makes it sound like shields take less damage than the person due to penetration - which is obviously not true.

But yeah, if you choose to focus on penetration and crit, you'll struggle vs shields. You dont have to build that way. That's why I prefer Julianos to spinners, and I strongly believe that different offensive stats should have different strengths/weaknesses to different defence mechanisms to foster build diversity.

Next patch, especially, with the trait changes, there will be less focus on penetration, and therefore more on base damage this is only gonna be stronger against shield users.