GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
Currently the Dark Shades morph only adds a second shade in addition to the regular shade, which is a bit underwhelming as far as morphs go (especially since both shades tend to attack the same target). Perhaps, instead of adding a second shade, the morph could allow the shade to do AOE damage. I think players would respond well to a potential change like this.
GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
Currently the Dark Shades morph only adds a second shade in addition to the regular shade, which is a bit underwhelming as far as morphs go (especially since both shades tend to attack the same target). Perhaps, instead of adding a second shade, the morph could allow the shade to do AOE damage. I think players would respond well to a potential change like this.
Although this morph of shades can do a decent (not great, just 'decent') amount of damage on a magica build, their 'damage' is not the reason to use them on a stam build (their melee attacks can crit, and, on my stamblade, the tooltip base attack is 500 +/- magic damage).
A few ways the twin shades can be used by a Stamblade:
They debuff the enemy's damage (minor maim = you take less damage), they can be a big help when kiting - if you work with them long enough you should be able to figure out how to get them to keep the mob preoccupied ( i.e., take aggro) giving you a 'breather' to regain some resources, buff yourself, or heal yourself. Unlike the other morph, the twin shades are mobile, so if the mob disappears underground or cloaks invisible, the shades will still follow them (meaning the shades give away the mob's location). And, if this weren't enough, the shades can't be killed, you don't have to double bar them, and you can use 'pet commands with them (attack / retreat) or direct them with a heavy attack.
Underwhelming? ABSOLUTELY NOT. Leave them as is.
If you want meaningful pet damage, or AOE pet damage, you may need to roll a sorc.
GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
Currently the Dark Shades morph only adds a second shade in addition to the regular shade, which is a bit underwhelming as far as morphs go (especially since both shades tend to attack the same target). Perhaps, instead of adding a second shade, the morph could allow the shade to do AOE damage. I think players would respond well to a potential change like this.
Although this morph of shades can do a decent (not great, just 'decent') amount of damage on a magica build, their 'damage' is not the reason to use them on a stam build (their melee attacks can crit, and, on my stamblade, the tooltip base attack is 500 +/- magic damage).
A few ways the twin shades can be used by a Stamblade:
They debuff the enemy's damage (minor maim = you take less damage), they can be a big help when kiting - if you work with them long enough you should be able to figure out how to get them to keep the mob preoccupied ( i.e., take aggro) giving you a 'breather' to regain some resources, buff yourself, or heal yourself. Unlike the other morph, the twin shades are mobile, so if the mob disappears underground or cloaks invisible, the shades will still follow them (meaning the shades give away the mob's location). And, if this weren't enough, the shades can't be killed, you don't have to double bar them, and you can use 'pet commands with them (attack / retreat) or direct them with a heavy attack.
Underwhelming? ABSOLUTELY NOT. Leave them as is.
If you want meaningful pet damage, or AOE pet damage, you may need to roll a sorc.
I like that you tried to defend Dark Shades, but everything you said proves how underwhelming this morph is. Let's dissect this point by point:
1) damage is only "decent" is a point in itself, and greatly suffers because both shades attack 1 target, which happens to be the same target
2) your point on kiting becomes a problem because if you're doing a good enough job kiting, then the shades usually spend most of their time chasing around that single enemy instead of attacking them
3) getting them to "take aggro" often requires you to cloak, which is a skill in itself that allows you to get a "breather" and regain resources, buff, or heal yourself
4) how often are you pulling mobs out of range of the Shadow Image morph? Doesn't seem like a strong point to me.
5) shades can't be killed because they have a timer instead that automatically guarantees their removal from play
6) not having to double bar them is a result of the timer and their guaranteed automatic removal from play
7) not sure what your goal is with the point about directing shades with heavy attack - that is the case with all summons/pets
Why would it be a bad idea to give the Dark Shades morph an AOE pulse while attacking? Surely that would be worth testing.
GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
Currently the Dark Shades morph only adds a second shade in addition to the regular shade, which is a bit underwhelming as far as morphs go (especially since both shades tend to attack the same target). Perhaps, instead of adding a second shade, the morph could allow the shade to do AOE damage. I think players would respond well to a potential change like this.
Although this morph of shades can do a decent (not great, just 'decent') amount of damage on a magica build, their 'damage' is not the reason to use them on a stam build (their melee attacks can crit, and, on my stamblade, the tooltip base attack is 500 +/- magic damage).
A few ways the twin shades can be used by a Stamblade:
They debuff the enemy's damage (minor maim = you take less damage), they can be a big help when kiting - if you work with them long enough you should be able to figure out how to get them to keep the mob preoccupied ( i.e., take aggro) giving you a 'breather' to regain some resources, buff yourself, or heal yourself. Unlike the other morph, the twin shades are mobile, so if the mob disappears underground or cloaks invisible, the shades will still follow them (meaning the shades give away the mob's location). And, if this weren't enough, the shades can't be killed, you don't have to double bar them, and you can use 'pet commands with them (attack / retreat) or direct them with a heavy attack.
Underwhelming? ABSOLUTELY NOT. Leave them as is.
If you want meaningful pet damage, or AOE pet damage, you may need to roll a sorc.
I like that you tried to defend Dark Shades, but everything you said proves how underwhelming this morph is. Let's dissect this point by point:
1) damage is only "decent" is a point in itself, and greatly suffers because both shades attack 1 target, which happens to be the same target
2) your point on kiting becomes a problem because if you're doing a good enough job kiting, then the shades usually spend most of their time chasing around that single enemy instead of attacking them
3) getting them to "take aggro" often requires you to cloak, which is a skill in itself that allows you to get a "breather" and regain resources, buff, or heal yourself
4) how often are you pulling mobs out of range of the Shadow Image morph? Doesn't seem like a strong point to me.
5) shades can't be killed because they have a timer instead that automatically guarantees their removal from play
6) not having to double bar them is a result of the timer and their guaranteed automatic removal from play
7) not sure what your goal is with the point about directing shades with heavy attack - that is the case with all summons/pets
Why would it be a bad idea to give the Dark Shades morph an AOE pulse while attacking? Surely that would be worth testing.
1.) As I said, using them is NOT for the damage they do. Sorcs are the ones with the pets that do meaningful damage (and now Wardens with their bears).
2.) It seems like you are referring to a kiting a single mob. I don't need the shades to kite a single mob (minor maim, however, is very useful on single-mob boss fights). I don't use the shades for vanilla content, nor in public dungeons. I do solo 4-man dungeons ... places where there are lots of trash mobs .... places where bosses / sub-bosses spawn lots of trash mobs. Some dungeons have game mechanics that spawn wave after wave of mobs ... 15-20 per wave with all eyes on you. LOL! The twin shades can attack and keep one or more mobs occupied while I am dealing with others.
3.) I suppose using cloak is one way to get the twin shades to take agro, except when facing mobs that have true sight.
Personally, I don't slot cloak when I have my shades slotted. As far as them taking agro, it's a matter of timing ... knowing what attack to use and when to use it, etc.,
4.) Pulling mobs? I don't 'pull mobs' in the traditional sense. I solo. It's not unusual to find mobs within a room or area spread out in clusters or small groups, with each group having its own agro area. I am careful to confine the area I am fighting in so as to not trigger too many of these clusters at a given time. That being said, there are some places where fighting 1 mob triggers all of them and you just have to deal with it.
5.) Yes, they are on a timer, however, you can recast them before they despawn, thus keeping them up for however long your resources allow.
6.) Of course they are on a timer ... with each hit, they cause minor maim! Can you imagine the outcry from the community if it were otherwise?
7.) The directing a pet via a heavy attack was introduced with Morrowind. Not everyone realizes that the shades are considered 'pets,' much less that these 'pets' can be directed. As a side note - some pets can't be directed with a heavy attack ... such as every pet the Warden has except the bear. LOL!
When operating 'in the shadows,' a person is usually focused on a single target (or, to a lesser extent, a small group of 2-3), preferably drawing as little attention as possible from others in the area. Unfortunately, having a pair of AOE spamming shades would be very counter intuitive to that type of play style.
GrumpyDuckling wrote: »When operating 'in the shadows,' a person is usually focused on a single target (or, to a lesser extent, a small group of 2-3), preferably drawing as little attention as possible from others in the area. Unfortunately, having a pair of AOE spamming shades would be very counter intuitive to that type of play style.
How and why would AOE damage be counter intuitive when attacking 1 to 3 total targets? You are aware that AOE attacks can be used against single targets, right?
RavenSworn wrote: »Imo Dark Shades should be on shorter duration but have the secondary ability, much like it's other counterpart shadow image, which will make each shade, where ever they are, to do a spin attack that will deal minor maim to any enemy they hit. The shades will disappear after 6s, down from 15s, to deal with the tremendous utility an aoe minor maim does.
This way you have two distinct effects, for two different game plays. You have a one time aoe minor maim, which deals lesser damage than the single target, higher damage escape mechanic shade.
As it stands there is absolutely no reason you want to run dark shades over shadow image, if you run it at all.
ESO is a game that lets you play the way you want, more or less. To accomplish this, there are going to be some skills that won't have much value to some play styles, while at the same time having a lot of value to other play styles. Value isn't always measured by numbers, but by the utility of the skill (such as juking out other players with Shadowy Image in pvp). Well, Dark Shades provides a great deal of utility soloing more difficult content (pve). Is it an 'easy button' skill? No. It takes a fair amount of practice, including positioning and timing, but that skill has become invaluable to me and is a 'must have' skill I always have slotted when I solo certain types of content ( I spent some time detailing its usefulness in a few places earlier in this thread).
End game players tend to view the value of a skill based on 'end game' content, pvp'ers tend to view the value of a skill based on pvp content; pve'ers tend to view the value of a skill based on pve content; solo'ers tend to view the value of a skill based on soloing content; groupers tend to view the value of a skill based on the value of the skill to the group. All skills won't be equally valuable to all play styles.
GrumpyDuckling wrote: »ESO is a game that lets you play the way you want, more or less. To accomplish this, there are going to be some skills that won't have much value to some play styles, while at the same time having a lot of value to other play styles. Value isn't always measured by numbers, but by the utility of the skill (such as juking out other players with Shadowy Image in pvp). Well, Dark Shades provides a great deal of utility soloing more difficult content (pve). Is it an 'easy button' skill? No. It takes a fair amount of practice, including positioning and timing, but that skill has become invaluable to me and is a 'must have' skill I always have slotted when I solo certain types of content ( I spent some time detailing its usefulness in a few places earlier in this thread).
End game players tend to view the value of a skill based on 'end game' content, pvp'ers tend to view the value of a skill based on pvp content; pve'ers tend to view the value of a skill based on pve content; solo'ers tend to view the value of a skill based on soloing content; groupers tend to view the value of a skill based on the value of the skill to the group. All skills won't be equally valuable to all play styles.
So you could just not morph it and have essentially the same skill, minus one of the shades (you said their damage isn't valuable so it's not like you need two of them). Then the morph could do AOE.
Everyone wins.
GrumpyDuckling wrote: »ESO is a game that lets you play the way you want, more or less. To accomplish this, there are going to be some skills that won't have much value to some play styles, while at the same time having a lot of value to other play styles. Value isn't always measured by numbers, but by the utility of the skill (such as juking out other players with Shadowy Image in pvp). Well, Dark Shades provides a great deal of utility soloing more difficult content (pve). Is it an 'easy button' skill? No. It takes a fair amount of practice, including positioning and timing, but that skill has become invaluable to me and is a 'must have' skill I always have slotted when I solo certain types of content ( I spent some time detailing its usefulness in a few places earlier in this thread).
End game players tend to view the value of a skill based on 'end game' content, pvp'ers tend to view the value of a skill based on pvp content; pve'ers tend to view the value of a skill based on pve content; solo'ers tend to view the value of a skill based on soloing content; groupers tend to view the value of a skill based on the value of the skill to the group. All skills won't be equally valuable to all play styles.
So you could just not morph it and have essentially the same skill, minus one of the shades (you said their damage isn't valuable so it's not like you need two of them). Then the morph could do AOE.
Everyone wins.
GrumpyDuckling wrote: »ESO is a game that lets you play the way you want, more or less. To accomplish this, there are going to be some skills that won't have much value to some play styles, while at the same time having a lot of value to other play styles. Value isn't always measured by numbers, but by the utility of the skill (such as juking out other players with Shadowy Image in pvp). Well, Dark Shades provides a great deal of utility soloing more difficult content (pve). Is it an 'easy button' skill? No. It takes a fair amount of practice, including positioning and timing, but that skill has become invaluable to me and is a 'must have' skill I always have slotted when I solo certain types of content ( I spent some time detailing its usefulness in a few places earlier in this thread).
End game players tend to view the value of a skill based on 'end game' content, pvp'ers tend to view the value of a skill based on pvp content; pve'ers tend to view the value of a skill based on pve content; solo'ers tend to view the value of a skill based on soloing content; groupers tend to view the value of a skill based on the value of the skill to the group. All skills won't be equally valuable to all play styles.
So you could just not morph it and have essentially the same skill, minus one of the shades (you said their damage isn't valuable so it's not like you need two of them). Then the morph could do AOE.
Everyone wins.GrumpyDuckling wrote: »ESO is a game that lets you play the way you want, more or less. To accomplish this, there are going to be some skills that won't have much value to some play styles, while at the same time having a lot of value to other play styles. Value isn't always measured by numbers, but by the utility of the skill (such as juking out other players with Shadowy Image in pvp). Well, Dark Shades provides a great deal of utility soloing more difficult content (pve). Is it an 'easy button' skill? No. It takes a fair amount of practice, including positioning and timing, but that skill has become invaluable to me and is a 'must have' skill I always have slotted when I solo certain types of content ( I spent some time detailing its usefulness in a few places earlier in this thread).
End game players tend to view the value of a skill based on 'end game' content, pvp'ers tend to view the value of a skill based on pvp content; pve'ers tend to view the value of a skill based on pve content; solo'ers tend to view the value of a skill based on soloing content; groupers tend to view the value of a skill based on the value of the skill to the group. All skills won't be equally valuable to all play styles.
So you could just not morph it and have essentially the same skill, minus one of the shades (you said their damage isn't valuable so it's not like you need two of them). Then the morph could do AOE.
Everyone wins.
It's been a long time since I used the unmorphed version ...on my toon, the Dark Shades morph deals roughly 5K damage per cast (in addition to everything else). That is enough damage to get / maintain agro ... not sure, but if the damage were cut in half, 1 shade may not be able to get / hold agro like the Dark Shades can.