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Thoughts from a PvE-only Player during Midyear Mayhem

Rainwhisper
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As some of you already know, if I were able to design my dream MMO, there would be zero PvP in it. I've played nearly every major MMO since Ultima Online, and I've always hated PvP,. I still do.

Nonetheless, I'm an achievement hound so I decided to give Midyear Mayhem a go. Here are my observations so far:

1. PvE combat does virtually nothing to prepare you for PvP combat. As in every other game, it's an entirely different animal.

2. Knowing my class and skills did mean that, if I didn't die instantly, I could usually stay alive long enough for someone else to kill my attacker. I, on the other hand, stood no chance of getting a kill.

3. It's possible for a player who has no interest in learning PvP-specific mechanics, investing in PvP-specific gear, or leveling PvP-specific skills to still contribute significantly. As a PvE completionist, I have 299 skillpoints. Even though I'm usually either a tank or DPS, and have 100+ skillpoints in crafting, I still had plenty to max out light armor and Resto Staff skills. All I had to do was join a large raid, heal constantly and I was able to do my part, and earn AP, without having to learn how to be a 1337 PvP'er.

4. Nearly all of the victories I saw came from overwhelming force. From how it looked to me, PvP in Cyrodiil is about forming as large of a group as possible, communicating effectively, and working as a single unit to overpower smaller forces at various objectives. If the group did not communicate well, or was smaller than the OPFOR, we died. Period.

5. Most people were very friendly, and actually more eager to communicate than some of the folks in PvE zones (many of whom seem to think they play a single-player game, and some of whom won't group up when they're standing right next to you working on the same quest). I assume that, because collaboration is so crucial to success, effective PvP'ers have to be able to communicate. In PvE that's really only true for end-game content.

6. There were some people who clearly take the game way too seriously, and some people who were patently vulgar and rude, but on the whole I didn't find the PvP community to be any more toxic than zone chat in PvE. Some folks obviously didn't like having a PvE-only achievement seeker along for the raid, but most of them went out of their way to be helpful and supportive.

7. There's a LOT of wasted time, especially if you find yourself in a group that can't collaborate effectively. Also, the human element introduces so many variables into the likelihood of success in a particular task (e.g. capturing a keep).

At the end of the day, PvP still holds no appeal for me. I want to collaborate with, not against, other players. I don't like the playstyle, the downtime, or the possibility of a large zerg ruining twenty minutes worth of work. Nonetheless, I'm very grateful to the PvP players for letting us PvE'ers come play in their sandbox for a bit. You made the experience much, much less painful than it could have been. I still need a few more boxes, and a battelground win, so I'll likely be back a few more times this week. Feel free to wave as you're standing over my corpse.
Edited by Rainwhisper on July 24, 2017 10:25PM
  • Sigtric
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    Thanks for sharing your thoughts. It's something I enjoy doing: seeing the other side of the coin that is.

    On your first point specifically, you are 100% correct and it's why many of us on the pvp side (myself enjoying both pve and pvp in this game) don't buy the 'we don't want to balance pve and pvp separately because we want one game' thing. The buttons you press might be the same but it's night and day how it all goes together, killing monsters versus killing player characters.

    As you may not have enjoyed pvp content itself it seems you at least found some enjoyment in some of the company you had and got see pvpers aren't what the general pve only crowd wants to say they are.

    Hope you have fun getting the rest of your achieves.

    Stormproof: Vibeke - 50 EP mDragonknight | Savi Dreloth - 50 EP Magsorc | Sadi Dreloth - 50 EP Magblade | Sigtric Stormaxe - 50 EP Stamsorc | Valora Dreloth - 50 EP Magplar | Sigtric the Unbearable 50 EP Stam Warden
    Scrub: Chews-on-Beavers - 50 EP DK Tank | Vera the Wild - 50 EP magicka Warden | Sigtric the Axe - 50 EP Dragonknight Crafter | Sigtric the Blade - 50 EP Lost Nightblade | Sigtric the Savage - 50 EP magicka Templar | Vibeka Shadowblade - 50 Ep Stealthy Ganky Nightblade |

    Show Me Your Dunmer
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  • timidobserver
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    PvE does help prepare you if you spend a lot of time in trials. Getting out of the red is very important in both. Standing in a destro bomb is pretty similar to standing in a World Shaper.
    V16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
    V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
    V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
    V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
    V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)

  • sarbonn
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    That was interesting insight. I have no desire to do pvp, but it was certainly interesting to hear your perspective on it.
    Clueless, but willing to learn.
  • Reverb
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    Thanks for sharing your experience. I'm glad it wasn't entirely painful, even if it didn't leave you wanting to pvp more often.

    I'll note that there's a reason that the chattiest people in pve zones are usually pvp'ers. We're so accustomed to it, both for strategic reasons and for general camaraderie (and angst) and chatter.
    Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. ~Friedrich Nietzsche
  • Rainwhisper
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    Sigtric wrote: »
    On your first point specifically, you are 100% correct and it's why many of us on the pvp side (myself enjoying both pve and pvp in this game) don't buy the 'we don't want to balance pve and pvp separately because we want one game' thing. The buttons you press might be the same but it's night and day how it all goes together, killing monsters versus killing player characters.

    I agree completely. They need to let go of that argument entirely.

  • Betsararie
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    Pvp is a game of skill. If someone finds it too hard for them and just die all the time and never get any kills, of course they won't like it.
  • Rainwhisper
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    Blanco wrote: »
    Pvp is a game of skill. If someone finds it too hard for them and just die all the time and never get any kills, of course they won't like it.

    League of Legends is also a game of skill. My dislike for it isn't the skill requirement, it's the style of gameplay.
  • redshirt_49
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    PvP is kind of a nightmare for me, since I'm red-green color blind. You may have noticed all the ground in cyrodiil is green.

    Yeah, it's a problem.

    Looking forward to the color-blind patch next month.
  • disintegr8
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    Good write up and pretty spot on.

    I have found that without changing around my skills/gear and relearning rotations, I am most useful in PVP popping up siege engines, then repairing the doors/walls that I have just destroyed if we win, or being a healer - which I love. I don't have an issue with this as these things need to be done - you cannot take a keep without knocking down a wall or door first.

    I don't do a lot of damage myself and die a lot when I am not in a reasonable group, but I don't worry too much about that. I have 2 characters doing PVP during this event (1 vet/1 non vet) and although I have earned about 700k AP, I only have about 25 kills between them on the Holiday event achievement.

    You are right about the zergs, nothing improves your success rate like having numbers - a zerg can take a resource or get beaten by a bigger zerg while trying. In this regard, group co-ordination is more important than individual skill. This was how real battles were won in real life until the last century, so I don't have a problem with it.
    Edited by disintegr8 on July 25, 2017 1:10AM
    Australian on PS4 NA server.
    Everyone's entitled to an opinion.
  • Morgul667
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    Thanks for the feedback this is nice
  • FloppyTouch
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    I pvp and pve about 50/50 I can agree with everything you said but I still love it. Group play is a part nothing is more fun to me then running around and looking for the small fights that do happen in between keeps.

    I like having pvp in a mmo bc it breaks up the grind of quest and dungeons it's just something else to do in the game we love. I can't tell you how many time you can run the same dungeons or trial and be like damn can't wait to do that again lol.

  • rootimus
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    Blanco wrote: »
    Pvp is a game of skill. If someone finds it too hard for them and just die all the time and never get any kills, of course they won't like it.

    ESO PvP is a game of zerg grind, though somewhat more skillful than Eve's fleet combat (grrr, F1 monkeys).
    Even on the internet, clear communication is important; it can be the difference between "helping your Uncle Jack off a horse" and "helping your uncle jack off a horse"; the difference between "knowing your s***" and "knowing you're s***".
    Greybeards & Gals - Civilised, laid-back, mature gamers. Beards optional. |
  • Chadak
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    It disappoints me terribly that the best way to farm AP is to roll around with a zerg. I find that utterly boring.

    I got everything I wanted. I'll never touch pvp again accordingly, because even after giving it the ol' college try...I'm reinforced in my initial suspicions and I have all new, firsthand experiential reasons to feel that its just not where I'll ever enjoy myself.

    So, my thoughts on this event are this: Its almost irrelevant to me.

    If its the cause of all the server instability, then its relevant to me in a purely negative fashion.
  • Karivaa
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    lol I hate pve. I only do pvp. Welcome to our world every time a dlc drops. We dread doing dungeons. Many of us make a lot of ap without being in a Zerg. We have more experience at it and the correct gear.
    Edited by Karivaa on July 25, 2017 1:59AM
  • Betsararie
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    rootimus wrote: »
    Blanco wrote: »
    Pvp is a game of skill. If someone finds it too hard for them and just die all the time and never get any kills, of course they won't like it.

    ESO PvP is a game of zerg grind, though somewhat more skillful than Eve's fleet combat (grrr, F1 monkeys).

    That is true that cyrodiil is centered entirely around zergs and nothing else has any power to stop them. That is 100% true.

    However I am saying that if you ever face someone in a 1v1 scenario, or you are 1v xing, that is a battle of skill.

    Zergs suck nearly all the fun out of cyrodiil, 100% true.
  • Balgost
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    I enjoy PVE about 99.9% of the time. I ducked in to PVP solo to see what I could from the Midyear Mayhem. I was promptly ganked and teabagged by a 6+ group as I stumbled around trying to figure out what my next objective was. That made up my .1% PVP.

    I was in hopes ESO PVP (with 3 factions) was like GW2 WvWvW. Maybe it is, but didn't stick around any longer to find out. One day I'll study up and group...maybe
    Edited by Balgost on July 25, 2017 2:07AM
  • ofSunhold
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    Can't speak for all of PvP-kind, but I have zero problems with PVE 'carebears' doing whatever wherever unless and until I think they're having a go at my people. And if you're in my faction and we're in Cyro, you ARE my people. ;)

    I suspect it's quite a bit zergier during this event than usual, which is fine: safety in numbers is a good strategy for the inexperienced and undergeared. If the servers could handle it, a nice big zerg v zerg (v zerg!) is a hell of a good time actually. Not exactly a test of skill, but hilarious fun all the same.

    Glad it went well for you,OP. And knowing your aversion to the whole scene, dead impressed you went and did it anyway.

    Edited by ofSunhold on July 25, 2017 3:59AM
    Classes that don't need any class ability nerfs: Nightblades, Dragonknights, Sorcs, Templars, Wardens.
  • Nemesis7884
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    i am not a pvp player but like to try it too during the coming days so take anything i say here with a huge grain of salt - but i think the easiest way to balance pve and pvp is by simply skills doing different damage numbers to players vs npc's... this could be something like a fixed malues on damage vs pvp or better looked at individually...

    I think they kinda tried to do this with minor slayer and such but i think this would probably the easiest thing - reduce damage of abilities in pvp and possibly reduce debuff / disabling times in pvp
  • Kay1
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    If you think to win you need big numbers you have no *** clue about what you trying to explain, really.

    A group of 4 very good players can wipe groups of 10, I've wiped groups of +12 players with just another player and my guild easily wipe two zergs from different alliances at the same time with a group of 10-12 (with godlike players).

    A solo player can manage to kill 2-9 players by his own.

    PvP is about skill, my bad, it used to be about skill, when proc set stack, perma heal, perma block and aoe caps gets removed it will maybe go back to skill based.
    K1 The Big Monkey
  • spiiros
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    Blanco wrote: »
    Pvp is a game of skill. If someone finds it too hard for them and just die all the time and never get any kills, of course they won't like it.

    ESO's pvp is about reaction: proc sets in a nutshell. I wouldn't call that "skillful", but sure, there is depth in regards to the tier of players you see, in regards to how well one animation cancels, know their character, etc, but in a nutshell, the game's overall skill level is quite low to people believing they're good, when they're just getting help from their sets, compared to actually having some form of so called "skill"...
  • zaria
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    Has not played PvP in a long time but joined for the event as I wanted PvP skills on many alts.
    Off to Kyne, found I missed the chaotic fun.

    As you say an large well coordinated group will usually win.
    This also forces communication, in PvE you don't need it so much if all know the instance but in the dynamic and unpredictable pvp its critical.
    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • ProfesseurFreder
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    Part of the reason why I don't PVP is the communication issue. I find the ESO chat system to be completely non-functional and incomprehensible... it's just an annoyance and so I now use an add-on to hide the damn thing completely.
    "Nothing by which all human passion and hope and folly can be mirrored and then proved ever was just a game."
    -- William Faulkner.
  • Enslaved
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    Fishermen's view of PvP.

    Everything is too noisy and laggy and ppl kill you while you fish. Those BASStards!

  • Minyassa
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    Thank you for writing this. As another PvE-only player, this gave me the information I needed to make a decision about whether I was going to dip my toe into the water for this event. As badly as I would like to unlock the PvP-gated dyes, it looks like it just would not be worth it to me with my particular temperament. Going into something that I'm not in to enjoy but just to get a job done would be made even worse by a consistent level of frustrating noob failures on my part, and adding any level of toxicity from other players makes that a really big nope. I admire and am very grateful for your willingness to go scout that out and report back!
  • Betheny
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    Good PVP communication requires a private voicechat like Teamspeak/Discord.

    OP you'll find the people you PVP with are all nice and helpful, but when you start getting into the whole thing deeper it starts going down a very dark path, lots of anger and frustration and demands for something to get nerfed while getting pissed if their own thing gets nerfed.

    The real PVP is in the nerf wars.
    Edited by Betheny on July 25, 2017 4:54AM
  • Humphie
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    Betheny wrote: »
    Good PVP communication requires a private voicechat like Teamspeak/Discord.

    OP you'll find the people you PVP with are all nice and helpful, but when you start getting into the whole thing deeper it starts going down a very dark path, lots of anger and frustration and demands for something to get nerfed while getting pissed if their own thing gets nerfed.

    The real PVP is in the nerf wars.

    The real PvP happens on the forums. Alliance war section to be specific. :wink:
  • Betheny
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    Humphie wrote: »
    Betheny wrote: »
    Good PVP communication requires a private voicechat like Teamspeak/Discord.

    OP you'll find the people you PVP with are all nice and helpful, but when you start getting into the whole thing deeper it starts going down a very dark path, lots of anger and frustration and demands for something to get nerfed while getting pissed if their own thing gets nerfed.

    The real PVP is in the nerf wars.

    The real PvP happens on the forums. Alliance war section to be specific. :wink:

    I forgot to mention the drama, thanks for reminding me :3
  • max_only
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    Quick question. I thought they put in free campaign reset? I'm trying to get rid of this home campaign so I can stop getting the notifications. Or maybe there's a way to turn off notifications?
    #FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
    #OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks
    || CP 1000+ || PC/NA || GUILDS: LWH; IA; CH; XA
    ""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom
  • Thannazzar
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    Nice analysis. Zergs are running hot, especially during the event. However you don't need a zerg or uber gear to be effective.

    I've had great fun with 3 of my guildies this event running distraction raids. Ie communicating with other pvp groups. Finding out where they are hitting next. Then taking resourses on the opposite side of the map and poking the castle walls withat 4 easily sacrificed ballista to pull enemy players from the real target. When the zerg arrives we stealth up and inform the main force they are good to go. Not massive AP but fun.
    Edited by Thannazzar on July 25, 2017 8:52AM
  • VoodooWasser
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    As someone who diddnt pvp exept for getting vigor and warhorn i must admit i enjoyed it more than i thaught i would. But it was an entire other thing than last time i tryed it. Now i diddnt had any lag problems at all so it was actually possible for me to react. Maby its also because i actually crafted a pvp gear (to all fellow pve guys : get freakin impen gear!). Now i really enjoy battlegrounds, the zerg vs zerg fights still bore me. I really would love to se that you could choose a bg mode. Did around 50 bgs with only 3 deathmatches :neutral:
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