Trading Guilds charging 15k/week now WTF

Pele · July 2017

For everyone complaining, try this: create a trading guild and try to get a trade kiosk. Come back every week for a month and tell us how it goes. I'd be interested in knowing if your perspective on GMs change and if you still think paying a weekly fee is outrageous.

Ostaradoe · July 2017

Pele wrote: »

For everyone complaining, try this: create a trading guild and try to get a trade kiosk. Come back every week for a month and tell us how it goes. I'd be interested in knowing if your perspective on GMs change and if you still think paying a weekly fee is outrageous.

Cant speak for anyone else, only myself.

I admit to not knowing fully how trading guilds work, reading this thread it does make a bit more sense why there are weekly fees.

However, I think how the whole thing is set up is wrong. It is not inclusive and it adds a level of commitment to the game that as I said before should not exist in MMO's. Players who dont know if they may not get in game all week are pretty much excluded from being able to sell anything in a meaningful way. Selling in zone chat is an invitation to be scammed or abused at best.

UrbanMonk · July 2017

I've my own guild in PC-NA. Our sales/ donation weekly is 5k. Now with full 500 members and appx 70% active we do close to 15-20 mil sales on average. Now that seems like a lot of gold (not considering the big traders amounting 100 mil+) but only a fraction of that goes back into guild bank. We are located in Alkir since beginning and we started getting that trader for appx 200-400k gold and then it went up to 1 mil+. Just by taxes paying the weekly trader bid money is getting harder and harder. And then as a GM/ Officers you've to do your own sales and play game as well. So on my end I can justify 5K.
Now not saying that 15k or 400k is right or wrong, but the people who are setting those rules may have a justification for that and if you don't like the rules, you are free to leave instead of coming on forum and QQing about it.

Pele · July 2017

Ostaradoe wrote: »

Pele wrote: »

For everyone complaining, try this: create a trading guild and try to get a trade kiosk. Come back every week for a month and tell us how it goes. I'd be interested in knowing if your perspective on GMs change and if you still think paying a weekly fee is outrageous.

Cant speak for anyone else, only myself.

I admit to not knowing fully how trading guilds work, reading this thread it does make a bit more sense why there are weekly fees.

However, I think how the whole thing is set up is wrong. It is not inclusive and it adds a level of commitment to the game that as I said before should not exist in MMO's. Players who dont know if they may not get in game all week are pretty much excluded from being able to sell anything in a meaningful way. Selling in zone chat is an invitation to be scammed or abused at best.

I buy from and only sell in zone chat all the time, and I've never been scammed or abused. In fact, I gave someone about a million gold a few days for a bunch of stuff he advertised through Zone chat. It's not as scary as you think.

jrmn78ii7883 · July 2017

You people complaining about this tiny amount of gold are cheap ingrates. The guildmaster of this guild is one of the sweetest and most honest people I know in this game. She bends over backwards for the members and for some reason cares about the members more than I would if I were ever a guildmaster. I know for a fact there were times where she had to use a lot of her own gold just to keep one of the top traders in the game. 15k gold is such a tiny tiny amount of gold. If it bothers you that much you probably don't produce that much anyway so maybe the guild is better off without you. Cheap broke scrubs lol

Giraffon · July 2017

It would be nice for all players to have a way to list and sell up to 5 items a day. Maybe some sort of mutated auction house that coexists with the current system. If they put something like that in I wouldn't bother with guild traders much. I'd just sell the best stuff I have and dump the rest to an NPC or deconstruct it.

Kodrac · July 2017

sylviermoone wrote: »

Newsflash: most people running trade guilds are FAR from "lazy mother ***". Putting together a raffle every week requires about 7 hours of work, plus the time to actually do the raffle (for me, that's 2 hours). An auction? We spend about 15 hours weekly preparing and running the auction. Running and/or participating in guild events? Another 4 hours weekly. Maintaining waitlists/guild rosters/paperwork/etc? Another 5 hours weekly. That's 33 hours weekly. How exactly is that "lazy"?

No ***, Sherlock. I was saying the people running the trade guilds that DON"T do any of that and want to charge insane weekly "dues" are the lazy *** suckers. L2Read, bro.

RoyalPink06 · July 2017

jrmn78ii7883 wrote: »

You people complaining about this tiny amount of gold are cheap ingrates. The guildmaster of this guild is one of the sweetest and most honest people I know in this game. She bends over backwards for the members and for some reason cares about the members more than I would if I were ever a guildmaster. I know for a fact there were times where she had to use a lot of her own gold just to keep one of the top traders in the game. 15k gold is such a tiny tiny amount of gold. If it bothers you that much you probably don't produce that much anyway so maybe the guild is better off without you. Cheap broke scrubs lol

This. Really surprised at the OP of this thread. Its kind of a shame what has happened here. Used to think OP was a valued, central member of the guild, always social and helpful in guild chat from what I have seen. Loyal to this particular guild in question at 10k/week, suddenly turns the other cheek over an extra 5k. How fickle.

Not sure how you can attack the integrity of a GM who has proven time and again that she busts her ass for us to make sure we always get a kickass trader, when there are other guilds out there buying gold. I'm happy to pay 15k/week if it means a cheater does not get our trader. It really is not that expensive when you have stuff to sell.

sylviermoone · July 2017

Kodrac wrote: »

sylviermoone wrote: »

Newsflash: most people running trade guilds are FAR from "lazy mother ***". Putting together a raffle every week requires about 7 hours of work, plus the time to actually do the raffle (for me, that's 2 hours). An auction? We spend about 15 hours weekly preparing and running the auction. Running and/or participating in guild events? Another 4 hours weekly. Maintaining waitlists/guild rosters/paperwork/etc? Another 5 hours weekly. That's 33 hours weekly. How exactly is that "lazy"?

No ***, Sherlock. I was saying the people running the trade guilds that DON"T do any of that and want to charge insane weekly "dues" are the lazy *** suckers. L2Read, bro.

First: I'm not your bro, bro. I'm not a "bro" at all, actually.

Second: as a person that spends that kind of time managing a guild, I can completely understand a GM that chose to NOT do those things, and instead ask for dues, and I wouldn't call them lazy. There isn't anything wrong with a GM wanting to spend time playing the game.

I'd be willing to bet you haven't put that kind of time into a guild. And for you to come on here and call people who have "lazy" because they've made a decision to change how they run their guild that doesn't conform to your ideas is pretty rude, actually.

A weekly due replaces the need to run raffles and auctions, while providing the kind of stable funding source that is necessary to make competitive bids. How a GM gets to that point is totally up to them.

idk · July 2017

SquareSausage wrote: »

A lot of people here wanting top quality service, but don't want to pay for it.

Says it all really about current attitudes.

Yes. 5th avenue ritz at back alley prices.

Feanor · July 2017

Maybe @Urkraft wants to add a word of wisdom to this

Kodrac · July 2017

sylviermoone wrote: »

Kodrac wrote: »

sylviermoone wrote: »

Newsflash: most people running trade guilds are FAR from "lazy mother ***". Putting together a raffle every week requires about 7 hours of work, plus the time to actually do the raffle (for me, that's 2 hours). An auction? We spend about 15 hours weekly preparing and running the auction. Running and/or participating in guild events? Another 4 hours weekly. Maintaining waitlists/guild rosters/paperwork/etc? Another 5 hours weekly. That's 33 hours weekly. How exactly is that "lazy"?

No ***, Sherlock. I was saying the people running the trade guilds that DON"T do any of that and want to charge insane weekly "dues" are the lazy *** suckers. L2Read, bro.

I'd be willing to bet you haven't put that kind of time into a guild. And for you to come on here and call people who have "lazy" because they've made a decision to change how they run their guild that doesn't conform to your ideas is pretty rude, actually.

You'd be wrong, bruh. Two of my four trade guilds I was an officer and did the work. So when one decided to quit putting in effort and instead charge insane fees I got the F out. All which was in my original post that you skimmed over. Do you even read, bro?

Cocorocho · July 2017

Kodrac wrote: »

sylviermoone wrote: »

Kodrac wrote: »

sylviermoone wrote: »

Newsflash: most people running trade guilds are FAR from "lazy mother ***". Putting together a raffle every week requires about 7 hours of work, plus the time to actually do the raffle (for me, that's 2 hours). An auction? We spend about 15 hours weekly preparing and running the auction. Running and/or participating in guild events? Another 4 hours weekly. Maintaining waitlists/guild rosters/paperwork/etc? Another 5 hours weekly. That's 33 hours weekly. How exactly is that "lazy"?

No ***, Sherlock. I was saying the people running the trade guilds that DON"T do any of that and want to charge insane weekly "dues" are the lazy *** suckers. L2Read, bro.

I'd be willing to bet you haven't put that kind of time into a guild. And for you to come on here and call people who have "lazy" because they've made a decision to change how they run their guild that doesn't conform to your ideas is pretty rude, actually.

You'd be wrong, bruh. Two of my four trade guilds I was an officer and did the work. So when one decided to quit putting in effort and instead charge insane fees I got the F out. All which was in my original post that you skimmed over. Do you even read, bro?

shes not a bro!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kodrac · July 2017

Cocorocho wrote: »

Kodrac wrote: »

sylviermoone wrote: »

Kodrac wrote: »

sylviermoone wrote: »

Newsflash: most people running trade guilds are FAR from "lazy mother ***". Putting together a raffle every week requires about 7 hours of work, plus the time to actually do the raffle (for me, that's 2 hours). An auction? We spend about 15 hours weekly preparing and running the auction. Running and/or participating in guild events? Another 4 hours weekly. Maintaining waitlists/guild rosters/paperwork/etc? Another 5 hours weekly. That's 33 hours weekly. How exactly is that "lazy"?

No ***, Sherlock. I was saying the people running the trade guilds that DON"T do any of that and want to charge insane weekly "dues" are the lazy *** suckers. L2Read, bro.

I'd be willing to bet you haven't put that kind of time into a guild. And for you to come on here and call people who have "lazy" because they've made a decision to change how they run their guild that doesn't conform to your ideas is pretty rude, actually.

You'd be wrong, bruh. Two of my four trade guilds I was an officer and did the work. So when one decided to quit putting in effort and instead charge insane fees I got the F out. All which was in my original post that you skimmed over. Do you even read, bro?

shes not a bro!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And?

Tan9oSuccka · July 2017

[/quote]

You'd be wrong, bruh. Two of my four trade guilds I was an officer and did the work. So when one decided to quit putting in effort and instead charge insane fees I got the F out. All which was in my original post that you skimmed over. Do you even read, bro?[/quote]

shes not a bro!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[/quote]

Bakkagami · July 2017

andreasranasen wrote: »

These GM's have turned into Zenimax with their weekly dues milking their members.

Ask how much they're shelling out to keep the traders. If not for donations etc many of those guilds in great spots would be netting pretty large losses.

Feanor · July 2017

Cocorocho wrote: »

Kodrac wrote: »

sylviermoone wrote: »

Kodrac wrote: »

sylviermoone wrote: »

Newsflash: most people running trade guilds are FAR from "lazy mother ***". Putting together a raffle every week requires about 7 hours of work, plus the time to actually do the raffle (for me, that's 2 hours). An auction? We spend about 15 hours weekly preparing and running the auction. Running and/or participating in guild events? Another 4 hours weekly. Maintaining waitlists/guild rosters/paperwork/etc? Another 5 hours weekly. That's 33 hours weekly. How exactly is that "lazy"?

No ***, Sherlock. I was saying the people running the trade guilds that DON"T do any of that and want to charge insane weekly "dues" are the lazy *** suckers. L2Read, bro.

I'd be willing to bet you haven't put that kind of time into a guild. And for you to come on here and call people who have "lazy" because they've made a decision to change how they run their guild that doesn't conform to your ideas is pretty rude, actually.

You'd be wrong, bruh. Two of my four trade guilds I was an officer and did the work. So when one decided to quit putting in effort and instead charge insane fees I got the F out. All which was in my original post that you skimmed over. Do you even read, bro?

shes not a bro!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Always thought it was "brah" round here.

Takes-No-Prisoner · July 2017

Diminish wrote: »

A specific GM seemed genuinely upset about certain posts so out of respect for them I have decided to edit my posts and remove what I have contributed to this conversation. With that said I will end my part of this discussion with this...

It was never my intention to single out a specific person, I was simply sharing my opinion on this matter. I have sent that GM a gift of 250k; hopefully they put it to use in a raffle or something that the members can participate in to help to steer this issue in the opposite direction, and to show my appreciation for the hard work they put into the guild. It's a small step, and probably pointless, but at least I can say that I was trying to be part of the solution and not the problem.

To those who feel that just because you have thousands of gold in sales a week that it is ok for guilds to increase dues for no apparent reason then you are part of the issue with the traders plaguing this game. I myself never said 15k/week dues was too much for me to afford. What I was trying to portray is that a 5k increase does nothing to help the situation; if anything it makes it worse. It makes the gap that much larger between big trader guilds and smaller trader guilds to compete for kiosk locations because now the larger guilds will have more funds; ultimately driving up trader bids and forcing smaller guilds completely out of any possible chance for a weekly trader. This is, and already has created "alliances" between these guilds; ultimately leaving the games economy in the hands of a few, rather than the many. In the real world this is called a monopoly.

Soon enough 15k/week dues will be the norm, then 20k, then 30k... when will it be acceptable by the community to raise concern about this? The rich get richer, the poor get poorer... sound familiar anyone? ZoS, please step in and rethink the trader kiosk system currently in place as it really needs an overhaul. The economy is controlled by a small number of the games population, and that is not healthy. In the end, this is just a game, and I for one am glad that I don't have to worry about the petty virtual politics behind the scenes.

I still think that despite what unfortunately happend in your situation, I do believe there is a solid discussion going on here as to whether or not it should be the norm. So thank you for breaking the ice.

Crafts_Many_Boxes · July 2017

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

Diminish wrote: »

A specific GM seemed genuinely upset about certain posts so out of respect for them I have decided to edit my posts and remove what I have contributed to this conversation. With that said I will end my part of this discussion with this...

It was never my intention to single out a specific person, I was simply sharing my opinion on this matter. I have sent that GM a gift of 250k; hopefully they put it to use in a raffle or something that the members can participate in to help to steer this issue in the opposite direction, and to show my appreciation for the hard work they put into the guild. It's a small step, and probably pointless, but at least I can say that I was trying to be part of the solution and not the problem.

To those who feel that just because you have thousands of gold in sales a week that it is ok for guilds to increase dues for no apparent reason then you are part of the issue with the traders plaguing this game. I myself never said 15k/week dues was too much for me to afford. What I was trying to portray is that a 5k increase does nothing to help the situation; if anything it makes it worse. It makes the gap that much larger between big trader guilds and smaller trader guilds to compete for kiosk locations because now the larger guilds will have more funds; ultimately driving up trader bids and forcing smaller guilds completely out of any possible chance for a weekly trader. This is, and already has created "alliances" between these guilds; ultimately leaving the games economy in the hands of a few, rather than the many. In the real world this is called a monopoly.

Soon enough 15k/week dues will be the norm, then 20k, then 30k... when will it be acceptable by the community to raise concern about this? The rich get richer, the poor get poorer... sound familiar anyone? ZoS, please step in and rethink the trader kiosk system currently in place as it really needs an overhaul. The economy is controlled by a small number of the games population, and that is not healthy. In the end, this is just a game, and I for one am glad that I don't have to worry about the petty virtual politics behind the scenes.

I still think that despite what unfortunately happend in your situation, I do believe there is a solid discussion going on here as to whether or not it should be the norm. So thank you for breaking the ice.

My thoughts exactly. I'm on PC so we don't have insane fees like that yet, but it calls the validity of the entire system into question. I'm sure fees will keep going up for everyone, and these kinds of fees will start to become the norm on PC eventually. They'll probably be 30k for PS4 by the time this happens.

I'm not a fan of the guild trader system. I think it's exclusionary and creates a "pseudo-economy" run by a select few instead of everyone, which is the price the system pays for being "stable". But, I'll set that aside for now.

The issue at hand are the membership dues / fees. This is a direct result of the bidding system. So, in regards to the topic of this thread, my answer is this - let's ditch the bidding system.

There are about 1000 ways to handle which guilds gets which trader that doesn't involve forking over millions and millions of gold, only to lose out to shady conglomerates or spy shenanigans. Let's randomize trade guild kiosks on a weekly basis. The bonus effect to this is that it will make the "remote" trading locations less remote. Suddenly, if a large, well-established guild winds up in the middle of nowhere, if their prices stay strong, then players will come.

So, a flat let's say 500k gold fee from any guild that has >100 members (anti shell guild measure) can qualify to enter the choosing. If more guilds enter than there are trader stalls, then oh well. You have another chance next week. This would also get rid of monopolies on certain sites, and ensure that even smaller guilds will have the chance to have a guild trader from time to time. I think including everyone regardless of their aggregate their buying / selling power is important, and the current system poops all over that idea.

Again, I would rather burn the trader system to the ground entirely to create some kind of regional Auction houses, but I'm trying to work within this discussion here.

sylviermoone · July 2017

Kodrac wrote: »

sylviermoone wrote: »

Kodrac wrote: »

sylviermoone wrote: »

Newsflash: most people running trade guilds are FAR from "lazy mother ***". Putting together a raffle every week requires about 7 hours of work, plus the time to actually do the raffle (for me, that's 2 hours). An auction? We spend about 15 hours weekly preparing and running the auction. Running and/or participating in guild events? Another 4 hours weekly. Maintaining waitlists/guild rosters/paperwork/etc? Another 5 hours weekly. That's 33 hours weekly. How exactly is that "lazy"?

No ***, Sherlock. I was saying the people running the trade guilds that DON"T do any of that and want to charge insane weekly "dues" are the lazy *** suckers. L2Read, bro.

I'd be willing to bet you haven't put that kind of time into a guild. And for you to come on here and call people who have "lazy" because they've made a decision to change how they run their guild that doesn't conform to your ideas is pretty rude, actually.

You'd be wrong, bruh. Two of my four trade guilds I was an officer and did the work. So when one decided to quit putting in effort and instead charge insane fees I got the F out. All which was in my original post that you skimmed over. Do you even read, bro?

I, in fact, read all of your post. I've read every word in this thread, and have skimmed nothing. I disagree with your insistence that moving from a raffles/auction method of funding, which is not a stable stream of income, to a dues system, which, in theory, provides a stable source of funding from which to make bids, is lazy. I'm willing to bet there is still a lot of spreadsheeting involved in keeping track of who's paid what dues and how much. It's just not as much work as the more traditional funding methods on PC. You didn't agree with that, so you left the guild. Awesome. Great. I support your choice to do that, but not the notion that it's a lazy move on the part of the GM's.

The notion of what constitutes an "insane" fee is entirely dependent on the guild's location.

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

The issue at hand are the membership dues / fees. This is a direct result of the bidding system. So, in regards to the topic of this thread, my answer is this - let's ditch the bidding system.

There are about 1000 ways to handle which guilds gets which trader that doesn't involve forking over millions and millions of gold, only to lose out to shady conglomerates or spy shenanigans. Let's randomize trade guild kiosks on a weekly basis. The bonus effect to this is that it will make the "remote" trading locations less remote. Suddenly, if a large, well-established guild winds up in the middle of nowhere, if their prices stay strong, then players will come.

So, a flat let's say 500k gold fee from any guild that has >100 members (anti shell guild measure) can qualify to enter the choosing. If more guilds enter than there are trader stalls, then oh well. You have another chance next week. This would also get rid of monopolies on certain sites, and ensure that even smaller guilds will have the chance to have a guild trader from time to time. I think including everyone regardless of their aggregate their buying / selling power is important, and the current system poops all over that idea.

Again, I would rather burn the trader system to the ground entirely to create some kind of regional Auction houses, but I'm trying to work within this discussion here.

On the subject of dues, given the system that we have: I think they are perfectly reasonable, especially when you consider the environment in which they are being used: console. The vanilla UI gives a guild leader no way to easily see a members sales or purchases, or even what the total guild sales for the week are. Trying to calculate for a minimum sales requirement has to be insane. Seriously, if you're a GM on console and you're tracking sales requirements; how are you doing it?

I believe that what ZOS is trying to create is a dynamic, competitive trading environment, and in that regard they have succeeded. Removing bidding completely ruins this. Location is everything in business, and it is the same in trading in ESO. Placing people randomly throughout the kiosks as they currently exist is not a solution I'd want to see. I'm happy (and my members are happy) to fund a bid that keeps us in a high traffic location. I think the solution of completely removing bidding and randomizing where guilds end up swings the pendulum too far in the other direction, and penalizes those for whom merchanting is a significant part of their gameplay. Not to mention the even larger problem of removing the single largest gold sink in the game.

If we are to move to a "flat fee" trader system, making a single location for guilds to purchase a kiosk would be a better way to go about it. Call it trader island, if you will, where there are 150 kiosks for rent, or whatever. I still think this moves a little far in the opposite direction, as there are still locations that are better than other locations. The kiosks next to the wayshrine will receive more traffic, and thus be "better". I (and my members) are happy to pay more to have a better location, and that's kind of the crux of the whole bidding system.

(As an aside, though I frequently hear people talk about how there aren't enough kiosks to go around, in my weekly check of kiosks on Sunday night, there are almost always a handful of open kiosks that didn't have a bid put on them, often in larger cities or capitols. That tells me that the current number of kiosks is on par with demand, at least on PC/NA. But that is an entirely different discussion).

Another idea that has been floated to ZOS is the idea of "city bidding", in which a guild would bid on a city, rather than a specific trader. The top 5 or whatever bids for the city would be accepted, and guilds would be randomly placed in a kiosk in the city in which they secured a bid. This could help to resolve a lot of the direct tension between guilds, as you'd no longer be "going after" a single guild in a single kiosk, but rather fighting against an unknown number of guilds for one of 5 or whatever spots.

Another solution to lowering the barrier to entry would be for ZOS to increase the size of a guild roster from 500. This would allow more guilds that have the ability to maintain kiosks to invite more members that wanted to participate in the economy in that way. Personally, keeping track of 500 people is plenty of work for me, but I know other GM's that support this idea.

I don't agree that the system isn't open to anyone that wants to participate. There are a multitude of guilds that are recruiting all the time, many of which have zero requirements to join. If you're the kind of seller that doesn't want to be on the hook for meeting a requirement, this would be the guild for you. Not everyone wants to be in a "serious" trading guild, just like not everyone wants to be in a hardcore raiding guild or hardcore PvP guild. Though it's getting more and more rare, there are "serious" guilds with excellent locations that maintain them with either no requirements or very minimal requirements. I don't support the idea that everyone deserves to have access to a high volume trader in the same way that I don't support the idea that everyone deserves a vMOL completion or to be crowned Emperor.

I often hear the argument that with the current system "the wealth is in the hands of very few players". I fail to see how making a world wide AH would change that in any way. It seems to me that having all items listed server wide in the same place would make it much easier for a handful of people to manipulate the market. And if we think the inflation is bad now, I wonder what we would think of the inflation when there's no massive gold sink...... It is for this reason that the idea of just adding as many kiosks as there are guilds doesn't work. The economy relies on guilds bidding on locations for the removal of gold.

I've yet to read a pro-AH opinion that takes the gold sink issue into account. Personally, I like that the market system is unique in ESO. I don't think there's anything wrong with the system, in theory, I think where it's fallen short is in the implementation; everything from the User Interface of a guild store, to not allowing guilds to adjust their own tax rates, to leaving the systems in place that allow for bid spying and rampant cheating. It's a poorly designed user experience that must be frightful on console. Improving those experiences would go a long way to making the economic system feel more accessible.

Crafts_Many_Boxes · July 2017

sylviermoone wrote: »

Kodrac wrote: »

sylviermoone wrote: »

Kodrac wrote: »

sylviermoone wrote: »

Newsflash: most people running trade guilds are FAR from "lazy mother ***". Putting together a raffle every week requires about 7 hours of work, plus the time to actually do the raffle (for me, that's 2 hours). An auction? We spend about 15 hours weekly preparing and running the auction. Running and/or participating in guild events? Another 4 hours weekly. Maintaining waitlists/guild rosters/paperwork/etc? Another 5 hours weekly. That's 33 hours weekly. How exactly is that "lazy"?

No ***, Sherlock. I was saying the people running the trade guilds that DON"T do any of that and want to charge insane weekly "dues" are the lazy *** suckers. L2Read, bro.

I'd be willing to bet you haven't put that kind of time into a guild. And for you to come on here and call people who have "lazy" because they've made a decision to change how they run their guild that doesn't conform to your ideas is pretty rude, actually.

You'd be wrong, bruh. Two of my four trade guilds I was an officer and did the work. So when one decided to quit putting in effort and instead charge insane fees I got the F out. All which was in my original post that you skimmed over. Do you even read, bro?

I, in fact, read all of your post. I've read every word in this thread, and have skimmed nothing. I disagree with your insistence that moving from a raffles/auction method of funding, which is not a stable stream of income, to a dues system, which, in theory, provides a stable source of funding from which to make bids, is lazy. I'm willing to bet there is still a lot of spreadsheeting involved in keeping track of who's paid what dues and how much. It's just not as much work as the more traditional funding methods on PC. You didn't agree with that, so you left the guild. Awesome. Great. I support your choice to do that, but not the notion that it's a lazy move on the part of the GM's.

The notion of what constitutes an "insane" fee is entirely dependent on the guild's location.

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

The issue at hand are the membership dues / fees. This is a direct result of the bidding system. So, in regards to the topic of this thread, my answer is this - let's ditch the bidding system.

There are about 1000 ways to handle which guilds gets which trader that doesn't involve forking over millions and millions of gold, only to lose out to shady conglomerates or spy shenanigans. Let's randomize trade guild kiosks on a weekly basis. The bonus effect to this is that it will make the "remote" trading locations less remote. Suddenly, if a large, well-established guild winds up in the middle of nowhere, if their prices stay strong, then players will come.

So, a flat let's say 500k gold fee from any guild that has >100 members (anti shell guild measure) can qualify to enter the choosing. If more guilds enter than there are trader stalls, then oh well. You have another chance next week. This would also get rid of monopolies on certain sites, and ensure that even smaller guilds will have the chance to have a guild trader from time to time. I think including everyone regardless of their aggregate their buying / selling power is important, and the current system poops all over that idea.

Again, I would rather burn the trader system to the ground entirely to create some kind of regional Auction houses, but I'm trying to work within this discussion here.

On the subject of dues, given the system that we have: I think they are perfectly reasonable, especially when you consider the environment in which they are being used: console. The vanilla UI gives a guild leader no way to easily see a members sales or purchases, or even what the total guild sales for the week are. Trying to calculate for a minimum sales requirement has to be insane. Seriously, if you're a GM on console and you're tracking sales requirements; how are you doing it?

I believe that what ZOS is trying to create is a dynamic, competitive trading environment, and in that regard they have succeeded. Removing bidding completely ruins this. Location is everything in business, and it is the same in trading in ESO. Placing people randomly throughout the kiosks as they currently exist is not a solution I'd want to see. I'm happy (and my members are happy) to fund a bid that keeps us in a high traffic location. I think the solution of completely removing bidding and randomizing where guilds end up swings the pendulum too far in the other direction, and penalizes those for whom merchanting is a significant part of their gameplay. Not to mention the even larger problem of removing the single largest gold sink in the game.

If we are to move to a "flat fee" trader system, making a single location for guilds to purchase a kiosk would be a better way to go about it. Call it trader island, if you will, where there are 150 kiosks for rent, or whatever. I still think this moves a little far in the opposite direction, as there are still locations that are better than other locations. The kiosks next to the wayshrine will receive more traffic, and thus be "better". I (and my members) are happy to pay more to have a better location, and that's kind of the crux of the whole bidding system.

(As an aside, though I frequently hear people talk about how there aren't enough kiosks to go around, in my weekly check of kiosks on Sunday night, there are almost always a handful of open kiosks that didn't have a bid put on them, often in larger cities or capitols. That tells me that the current number of kiosks is on par with demand, at least on PC/NA. But that is an entirely different discussion).

Another idea that has been floated to ZOS is the idea of "city bidding", in which a guild would bid on a city, rather than a specific trader. The top 5 or whatever bids for the city would be accepted, and guilds would be randomly placed in a kiosk in the city in which they secured a bid. This could help to resolve a lot of the direct tension between guilds, as you'd no longer be "going after" a single guild in a single kiosk, but rather fighting against an unknown number of guilds for one of 5 or whatever spots.

Another solution to lowering the barrier to entry would be for ZOS to increase the size of a guild roster from 500. This would allow more guilds that have the ability to maintain kiosks to invite more members that wanted to participate in the economy in that way. Personally, keeping track of 500 people is plenty of work for me, but I know other GM's that support this idea.

I don't agree that the system isn't open to anyone that wants to participate. There are a multitude of guilds that are recruiting all the time, many of which have zero requirements to join. If you're the kind of seller that doesn't want to be on the hook for meeting a requirement, this would be the guild for you. Not everyone wants to be in a "serious" trading guild, just like not everyone wants to be in a hardcore raiding guild or hardcore PvP guild. Though it's getting more and more rare, there are "serious" guilds with excellent locations that maintain them with either no requirements or very minimal requirements. I don't support the idea that everyone deserves to have access to a high volume trader in the same way that I don't support the idea that everyone deserves a vMOL completion or to be crowned Emperor.

I often hear the argument that with the current system "the wealth is in the hands of very few players". I fail to see how making a world wide AH would change that in any way. It seems to me that having all items listed server wide in the same place would make it much easier for a handful of people to manipulate the market. And if we think the inflation is bad now, I wonder what we would think of the inflation when there's no massive gold sink...... It is for this reason that the idea of just adding as many kiosks as there are guilds doesn't work. The economy relies on guilds bidding on locations for the removal of gold.

I've yet to read a pro-AH opinion that takes the gold sink issue into account. Personally, I like that the market system is unique in ESO. I don't think there's anything wrong with the system, in theory, I think where it's fallen short is in the implementation; everything from the User Interface of a guild store, to not allowing guilds to adjust their own tax rates, to leaving the systems in place that allow for bid spying and rampant cheating. It's a poorly designed user experience that must be frightful on console. Improving those experiences would go a long way to making the economic system feel more accessible.

I mean, your entire post (up until the end) assumes a system of fair competition. It's not. There's spying, there's shadow alliances, there's shell guilds. And, oh right, there are tons and tons and tons of bots.

We can keep paddling along and pretend like these issues will ever be fixed, or we can change the system to not be so heavily influenced by them. That's the crux of my suggestion. Making everything random and based on a nominal, flat fee would eliminate the gigantic, insurmountable advantage that many trade guilds gain by straight-up cheating. The main reason the bidding process is broken because it assumes fair play, plain and simple.

But even beyond the cheating / botting conundrum, even if these factors didn't exist, I still think we should move away from bidding. Here's why:

Trading, in this game, is almost its own sub-game. To be successful and make lots of guild through the trading system right now, you need to devote large amounts of play time to it. So much play time that someone with an actual life can't realistically do much of anything else BUT trade.

This would be well and fine and all, but here's the rub: there's 0 reciprocity between trading and other elements of the game. It's a 1 way street.

Be it pvpers, pvers, or crafters, everyone needs gold and everyone needs materials. These are the goods that traders specialize in. However, does it flow the other way? Do traders need PvE gear to trade? Nope. Do traders need PvP gear to trade. Also nope! Do traders need 9 trait specialization and 75 motifs known to trade? Nope. This is the problem. Everyone in the game needs something FROM the traders, but the traders need NOTHING from the rest of the game.

They get to spend 100% of their time doing what they want to do, and if you're a PvPer, PvEr, or Crafter, you're gonna have to settle for being broke by comparison. There are often things that we could also really use gold for, or just additional items that require lots of farming that we can't afford because we're too busy actually trying to kill bosses / each other. Again, if you have a life outside the game RIP.

I suggested in another thread that PvP / PvE needs to reward more things that are useful to traders to balance out this "1 way street", but until that happens, it is wholly unfair that the traders be given their own minigame that we have to either devote our time to participate in or be inferior in what we enjoy doing. Eliminating bidding would be a huge step towards making things fair for everyone, but traders would lose their position of power so I can understand why they don't want this.

Edit: Oh, and in regards to all the wealth only being in the hands of a few players, I'm well aware that adding an AH or overhauling guild traders wouldn't fix this. Probably. I'm curious to see how the mats of every single player who isn't participating in the economy right now would compare to the barons, but that's a hypothetical. What isn't hypothetical is that, frankly I don't care if the rich stay rich. Right now, players such as myself don't even have a chance to not be poor, because we only have so many hours to commit to the game and can't commit to the trader lifestyle without the game becoming something we don't want to play anymore.

Mazbt · July 2017

The top trading guilds get those spots because it's a guild wide effort. I 100% agree with Epona above.

dotme · July 2017

I like the trading guild I belong to, but I might be in the process of being priced out of play.

Mandatory fees are up 300% (From 5K to 15K) for me as well since the first of the year, and while I always maintain 30/30, I feel sales for me are either flat or slowly falling off.

At some point I'm afraid I'm gonna be upside down - spending more on the membership fee than the revenue I'm bringing in to cover it, and at that point I guess I'm going to have to bow out. It's a shame, because I really enjoy being part of a major trader.

Tan9oSuccka · July 2017

dotme wrote: »

I like the trading guild I belong to, but I might be in the process of being priced out of play.

Mandatory fees are up 300% (From 5K to 15K) for me as well since the first of the year, and while I always maintain 30/30, I feel sales for me are either flat or slowly falling off.

At some point I'm afraid I'm gonna be upside down - spending more on the membership fee than the revenue I'm bringing in to cover it, and at that point I guess I'm going to have to bow out. It's a shame, because I really enjoy being part of a major trader.

I agree. I was just telling my buddy maybe this is a sign.

To play less ESO and work out more with my free time. Use free and donation guilds instead.

Buffler · July 2017

I run a big trade guild on xbox eu with a permanent Mournhold trader. Not one guild on eu charges guild fees but things are getting more and more expensive. Taxes are barely covering trader spots anymore. I have personally put in over 12mill of my own gold over the months to maintain our spot. We have donations and thats a big help but i fear things will soon come to a head on our server. Some gm's are already discussing weekly dues but we are trying our hardest not to.

For those cheapskates who just expect a top trade spot at no expense....shame on you!

andreasranasen · July 2017

Buffler wrote: »

I run a big trade guild on xbox eu with a permanent Mournhold trader. Not one guild on eu charges guild fees but things are getting more and more expensive. Taxes are barely covering trader spots anymore. I have personally put in over 12mill of my own gold over the months to maintain our spot. We have donations and thats a big help but i fear things will soon come to a head on our server. Some gm's are already discussing weekly dues but we are trying our hardest not to.

For those cheapskates who just expect a top trade spot at no expense....shame on you!

To clarify, i don't think anyone in this thread has said anything about wanting something for free. Everything has a price. But making it a norm to charge your members ridiculous prices is absurd. What's next 20-30k/weekly fee?

This is a topic that should be brought up and talked about as it's taking trading to a place where it shouldn't. Hopefully this thread can push Zenimax to realize trading in this game is not working and maybe they could plan on implementing a global trading system or search function across platforms. A search function would lower trader cost by 200% if not more. There would be no need or anything special with capital guild traders anymore if we had a search function across all platforms.

This thread also called out guilds (No specific names were called out from me) who support raising the fees making it a norm.

Diminish · July 2017

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

I still think that despite what unfortunately happend in your situation, I do believe there is a solid discussion going on here as to whether or not it should be the norm. So thank you for breaking the ice.

Thanks, and I agree. My issue was never one with any particular GM or guild. It was more about the fact that there is no reason why guild dues should be hitting 15k a week. Something is obviously broken somewhere. Rather it be internally in said guild, server wide on said platform, or with the trader kiosk system currently in place. It would be nice if ZoS would just step in and entertain the idea of making adjustments to this system or considering alternative methods to it because what we currently have is not helping this game at all.

MalagenR · July 2017

andreasranasen wrote: »

Buffler wrote: »

I run a big trade guild on xbox eu with a permanent Mournhold trader. Not one guild on eu charges guild fees but things are getting more and more expensive. Taxes are barely covering trader spots anymore. I have personally put in over 12mill of my own gold over the months to maintain our spot. We have donations and thats a big help but i fear things will soon come to a head on our server. Some gm's are already discussing weekly dues but we are trying our hardest not to.

For those cheapskates who just expect a top trade spot at no expense....shame on you!

To clarify, i don't think anyone in this thread has said anything about wanting something for free. Everything has a price. But making it a norm to charge your members ridiculous prices is absurd. What's next 20-30k/weekly fee?

This is a topic that should be brought up and talked about as it's taking trading to a place where it shouldn't. Hopefully this thread can push Zenimax to realize trading in this game is not working and maybe they could plan on implementing a global trading system or search function across platforms. A search function would lower trader cost by 200% if not more. There would be no need or anything special with capital guild traders anymore if we had a search function across all platforms.

This thread also called out guilds (No specific names were called out) who support raising the fees making it a norm.

More than clear you're just a complainer. In the grand scheme of thing paying 15-50k gold to maintain a trader that actually moves volume, considering the amount of profit to be made off players who are not traders, is ridiculously reasonable. If GM's are having to put any gold in at all, it's a *** system. In fact, the GM's + Officer's should be getting paid out for the work they perform on behalf of the guild members.

andreasranasen · July 2017

MalagenR wrote: »

andreasranasen wrote: »

Buffler wrote: »

I run a big trade guild on xbox eu with a permanent Mournhold trader. Not one guild on eu charges guild fees but things are getting more and more expensive. Taxes are barely covering trader spots anymore. I have personally put in over 12mill of my own gold over the months to maintain our spot. We have donations and thats a big help but i fear things will soon come to a head on our server. Some gm's are already discussing weekly dues but we are trying our hardest not to.

For those cheapskates who just expect a top trade spot at no expense....shame on you!

To clarify, i don't think anyone in this thread has said anything about wanting something for free. Everything has a price. But making it a norm to charge your members ridiculous prices is absurd. What's next 20-30k/weekly fee?

This is a topic that should be brought up and talked about as it's taking trading to a place where it shouldn't. Hopefully this thread can push Zenimax to realize trading in this game is not working and maybe they could plan on implementing a global trading system or search function across platforms. A search function would lower trader cost by 200% if not more. There would be no need or anything special with capital guild traders anymore if we had a search function across all platforms.

This thread also called out guilds (No specific names were called out) who support raising the fees making it a norm.

More than clear you're just a complainer. In the grand scheme of thing paying 15-50k gold to maintain a trader that actually moves volume, considering the amount of profit to be made off players who are not traders, is ridiculously reasonable. If GM's are having to put any gold in at all, it's a *** system. In fact, the GM's + Officer's should be getting paid out for the work they perform on behalf of the guild members.

Take it as however you want

Complaining/voicing your opinion = reaction = action (hopefully action). If you enjoy paying your fees, then by all means, have fun! But not all players in this game wants a game like that.

sylviermoone · July 2017

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

I mean, your entire post (up until the end) assumes a system of fair competition. It's not. There's spying, there's shadow alliances, there's shell guilds. And, oh right, there are tons and tons and tons of bots.

We can keep paddling along and pretend like these issues will ever be fixed, or we can change the system to not be so heavily influenced by them. That's the crux of my suggestion. Making everything random and based on a nominal, flat fee would eliminate the gigantic, insurmountable advantage that many trade guilds gain by straight-up cheating. The main reason the bidding process is broken because it assumes fair play, plain and simple.

There is nowhere that ZOS has officially addressed the tactics of shadow guilds or alliances as an exploit or cheating. Personally, I think the idea of creating a guild to purchase a trader for the sole purpose of extorting other guilds is abhorrent and against the spirit of the system. But as ZOS refuses to clearly denounce this as cheating or an exploit, who's to say it isn't working as intended?

On the subject of bid-spying, however; they have made their stance clear; by first removing the membership's ability to see the winning bid amount AFTER a bid had been won (in a mistaken attempt to curtail bid spying), and now by removing the ability for anyone to see the bank balance all together unless granted permission to do so. I believe this to be a cheap fix that hurts a GM's ability to maintain transparency to their membership, but nonetheless, it is a fix. Removing bid spying in and of itself already works to level the playing field a bit. It makes blind bids once and for all truly blind.

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

But even beyond the cheating / botting conundrum, even if these factors didn't exist, I still think we should move away from bidding. Here's why:

Trading, in this game, is almost its own sub-game. To be successful and make lots of guild through the trading system right now, you need to devote large amounts of play time to it. So much play time that someone with an actual life can't realistically do much of anything else BUT trade.

To make lots and lots of gold, you need to devote time to selling, and not just selling. You need to devote time to understanding the market, being on top of upcoming changes, and react quickly to adjust your stock. And to be awesome at end game content you need to farm the gear and practice your rotations and know your build. To be awesome at PvP you need to have good reflexes and understand how to counter an opponents abilities, and when to recognize if they've made a mistake in their attacks. If you want to be really good at those other methods of play, you need to devote a significant amount of time to them; perhaps ALL of your play time. I fail to see your argument, here.

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

This would be well and fine and all, but here's the rub: there's 0 reciprocity between trading and other elements of the game. It's a 1 way street.

Be it pvpers, pvers, or crafters, everyone needs gold and everyone needs materials. These are the goods that traders specialize in. However, does it flow the other way? Do traders need PvE gear to trade? Nope. Do traders need PvP gear to trade. Also nope! Do traders need 9 trait specialization and 75 motifs known to trade? Nope. This is the problem. Everyone in the game needs something FROM the traders, but the traders need NOTHING from the rest of the game.

They get to spend 100% of their time doing what they want to do, and if you're a PvPer, PvEr, or Crafter, you're gonna have to settle for being broke by comparison. There are often things that we could also really use gold for, or just additional items that require lots of farming that we can't afford because we're too busy actually trying to kill bosses / each other. Again, if you have a life outside the game RIP.

If I understand what you're saying correctly here, it seems to me that you think someone that plays the economy is 100% of the time doing an activity they enjoy, while people that enjoy other playstyles are not. That people that play economy don't need PvE'ers or PvP'ers or crafters, while the other people need traders. I think that's 100% false.

Nobody NEEDS to buy anything from another player, ever. Everything you NEED is 100% available without ever having to visit a trader or purchase anything. You can farm your own materials, even in Cyrodiil. You can purchase alchemy bags with Tel Var stones. Motifs for crafters? All farmable, with the exception of the crown store exclusives. That uber Sharpened Lightning Necro staff? Available as a zone drop. The only time anyone really NEEDS anyone else is for dungeon and trial drops, which aren't sellable, anyway.

Anything you're buying from a trader is 100% available for you to go get on your own. You don't NEED a trader. It's convenient that someone has taken the time to farm that Ancestor Silk, or those Columbines, or that bitchin Sharpened Sword, though. And you're paying for that convenience.

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

I suggested in another thread that PvP / PvE needs to reward more things that are useful to traders to balance out this "1 way street", but until that happens, it is wholly unfair that the traders be given their own minigame that we have to either devote our time to participate in or be inferior in what we enjoy doing. Eliminating bidding would be a huge step towards making things fair for everyone, but traders would lose their position of power so I can understand why they don't want this.

There is a hell of a lot of PvE gear that is super desirable on the market at this point, and though it will come down some in price with the next patch, certain gear sets available in the open world will still command top dollar. I do think that making all dungeon gear BoP was kind of lame, and I don't see anyone really busting down the door for most PvP sets except PvP'ers, which makes sense.

But where I stop agreeing with you here is at your notion of what is fair. I don't expect to have a vMOL complete unless I work for it. I don't expect to be crowned Emperor without putting in the time on a Cyrodiil campaign. I don't expect to have 9 traits in crafting unlocked just for logging in, and I don't expect to make epic piles of gold in ESO without putting in the time to get good at selling. I feel like what I'm hearing you ask for is a way to make piles of gold without putting any effort into it. If that isn't what you're saying, I apologize for misinterpreting.

(For the record, I've got about 75K across 8 different characters right now. I don't play trader, I manage a guild. Hell, I haven't even completed Wrothgar's main quest line, nor any of the other DLC content, and I've been playing since early access)

Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »

Edit: Oh, and in regards to all the wealth only being in the hands of a few players, I'm well aware that adding an AH or overhauling guild traders wouldn't fix this. Probably. I'm curious to see how the mats of every single player who isn't participating in the economy right now would compare to the barons, but that's a hypothetical. What isn't hypothetical is that, frankly I don't care if the rich stay rich. Right now, players such as myself don't even have a chance to not be poor, because we only have so many hours to commit to the game and can't commit to the trader lifestyle without the game becoming something we don't want to play anymore.

I guess that all depends on what your idea of "poor" and "not being poor" are. I have a friend's list full of people that, like yourself, don't want to play the "trader lifestyle". So, they play the way they want to play, and when they've go some stuff stored up they want to sell, they let me know. I get them in the guild, they sell their stuff for a couple weeks, they leave the guild.

It takes less time than you think to make a decent amount of gold in the trading system. But if your desire is to be fabulously wealthy or something, then no: you probably won't do that without "playing trader". And, for the health of the overall economy, I think that's probably a good thing.

Edit to add: I'd like to thank you, @Crafts_Many_Boxes, for engaging in this discussion. We probably aren't going to completely agree, but I definitely appreciate the opportunity to have a reasoned discuss.