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Frustrated wth grinding...
MudkipKatana
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I'm sure if ZOS reads all the posts or not but I need to get my ideas onto paper... Figuratively speaking... Or these thoughts will drive me up a wall.
I'm sure I'm not the only who gets frustrated by the farming process in this game. Don't get me wrong, I do, in fact, believe the farming process to be necessary, but ZOS needs to implement a system to reward players for taking on harder content. I hear a lot of people want a "Token System" which would be an awesome idea. Have a dungeon specific vendor that accept dungeon specific tokens. However, make these Tokens require you to complete challenges in order to acquire. Specifically, the three main veteran dungeon challenges: Speed, Survivor, and Hard Mode. Reward players for mastering the mechanics of harder content. Otherwise, the only reason people have to do these is for Daily Pledges and Achievements... Which leads me to my next points. Have that system carry over to Undaunted Pledges but in a different way. You know how when you accept a Pledge, there's that option asking for something harder? Well, include Speed and Survivor next to the Hard Mode challenge. Each nets you one extra key, which would make trying to get Undaunted shoulder pieces far less stressful. In addition, have an option to "Go big, or go home" in which you can stake your entire reward on completing all the challenges. Succeeding at the "Go big" challenge though should net you not one of your standard purple Undaunted Keys but a gold one that lets you pick a piece out from the dungeon you just completed. For example, say you accept the pledge for an easy vet dungeon such as Fungal Grotto 1, you select the All or nothing option and complete it. Not only would get the tokens from doing the challenges but also the Gold Key. However the Gold Key, unlike the Purple Keys only allows you to select a shoulder piece from the dungeon you got it from. In my example, I used Fungal Grotto 1, so you would only be able to select a Kra'agh shoulder. My final point was achievements. They're useless, they don't encourage your average player to get them unless they come with a Title, Dye, Skin, Pet, Costume, etc.... What if you allowed us to use those otherwise arbitrary Achievement Points as the currency to buy the gear we need from dungeon vendors. Otherwise, we can't even display out Achievement Points as like a bragging right, we can't display the Achievements themselves and other players can't actually view which ones we've completed through and interaction menu. Please, do something about that. I only say that, because Achievement Hunting is how I've been staying interested in this game.
Basically what I'm getting at is ZOS needs to not just reward players for taking on harder content but give clear goals in acquiring the gear they need. It's not exactly a solid idea to ask everyone to farm the same dungeon dozens of times to MAYBE get a weapon or jewelry for a set they may or may not want with a trait that may or may not be beneficial. Retain the random drops but give a clear goal in farming higher content that rewards players for putting in the effort is all I ask.
(P.S. Can you make two handed weapons [i.e. Swords, Staves, Bows, etc..] count as two pieces of a set? Building is frustrating enough without these restrictions. Or even better, add off-hand items to two handed weapons. Items you have to farm for and don't add any damage themselves but allow for full utilization of a set. This one was a guild mate's idea but like add a pommel for great weapons, charms for staves, quivers for bow, etc, etc.... Also this one is my idea but let Ice Staff user equip shields.)
I'm sure I'm not the only who gets frustrated by the farming process in this game. Don't get me wrong, I do, in fact, believe the farming process to be necessary, but ZOS needs to implement a system to reward players for taking on harder content. I hear a lot of people want a "Token System" which would be an awesome idea. Have a dungeon specific vendor that accept dungeon specific tokens. However, make these Tokens require you to complete challenges in order to acquire. Specifically, the three main veteran dungeon challenges: Speed, Survivor, and Hard Mode. Reward players for mastering the mechanics of harder content. Otherwise, the only reason people have to do these is for Daily Pledges and Achievements... Which leads me to my next points. Have that system carry over to Undaunted Pledges but in a different way. You know how when you accept a Pledge, there's that option asking for something harder? Well, include Speed and Survivor next to the Hard Mode challenge. Each nets you one extra key, which would make trying to get Undaunted shoulder pieces far less stressful. In addition, have an option to "Go big, or go home" in which you can stake your entire reward on completing all the challenges. Succeeding at the "Go big" challenge though should net you not one of your standard purple Undaunted Keys but a gold one that lets you pick a piece out from the dungeon you just completed. For example, say you accept the pledge for an easy vet dungeon such as Fungal Grotto 1, you select the All or nothing option and complete it. Not only would get the tokens from doing the challenges but also the Gold Key. However the Gold Key, unlike the Purple Keys only allows you to select a shoulder piece from the dungeon you got it from. In my example, I used Fungal Grotto 1, so you would only be able to select a Kra'agh shoulder. My final point was achievements. They're useless, they don't encourage your average player to get them unless they come with a Title, Dye, Skin, Pet, Costume, etc.... What if you allowed us to use those otherwise arbitrary Achievement Points as the currency to buy the gear we need from dungeon vendors. Otherwise, we can't even display out Achievement Points as like a bragging right, we can't display the Achievements themselves and other players can't actually view which ones we've completed through and interaction menu. Please, do something about that. I only say that, because Achievement Hunting is how I've been staying interested in this game.
Basically what I'm getting at is ZOS needs to not just reward players for taking on harder content but give clear goals in acquiring the gear they need. It's not exactly a solid idea to ask everyone to farm the same dungeon dozens of times to MAYBE get a weapon or jewelry for a set they may or may not want with a trait that may or may not be beneficial. Retain the random drops but give a clear goal in farming higher content that rewards players for putting in the effort is all I ask.
(P.S. Can you make two handed weapons [i.e. Swords, Staves, Bows, etc..] count as two pieces of a set? Building is frustrating enough without these restrictions. Or even better, add off-hand items to two handed weapons. Items you have to farm for and don't add any damage themselves but allow for full utilization of a set. This one was a guild mate's idea but like add a pommel for great weapons, charms for staves, quivers for bow, etc, etc.... Also this one is my idea but let Ice Staff user equip shields.)
Submit to the Argonian Master Race. Submit and be free.
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Jamascus✭✭✭✭The grinding is insulting. Problem is, if they added a token system they would inevitably *** it up and potentially make it worse. We have no evidence to show they could competently implement a token system. I have been around since beta and they just keep derping along. It's too bad, this game has a lot of potential, they just can't get out of their own way.Edited by Jamascus on July 15, 2017 7:10PM7 -
MudkipKatana✭✭I wouldn't say grinding itself is insulting but rather the lack of a clear outcome for your farming needs IS insulting. The way ZOS has handled the farming process is stressful. And it's a huge time sink. I'm currently trying to farm for Imperium one handers and a shield. And I'd be fine with that if 1.) Finding a group for that dungeon wasn't so damned hard and 2.) There were a more defined goal for acquiring what I need. The Trophy Vaults don't help much either because they're a random drop as well just like everything else. Only difference is they drop two random set pieces rather than just one from a chest or boss. I do like this game a lot. But the insane amounts of time you spend getting set up only detracts from you actually getting to do the High Content. I've been farming for a long ass time now. I'm currently CP 551 and I'm still using Hundings/ Spriggans on my DPS. I can't find the time, the groups, nor the motivation to actually farm the dungeons I need.Submit to the Argonian Master Race. Submit and be free.0
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MudkipKatana✭✭Other traits besides Sharp will be viable next patch, so that's something.
It's not just Sharpened that people look for, besides the nerf to Sharpened/ Defending is only affecting two-handed weapons isn't it? They're just cutting back on the over-performance of PvP-centric build paths.Submit to the Argonian Master Race. Submit and be free.0 -
Strider_Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Try to do a combination of dropped, and crafted gear.
Reserve dropped gear for jewelry, and two additional pieces, and reserve your weapons, and your other armor for the crafted gear. It immensely reduces the grind.7 -
Akrasjel✭✭✭✭Just let go.Edited by Akrasjel on July 15, 2017 7:49PM[PC][EU][Daggerfall Covenant]
Akrasjel Lanate - Imperial Nightblade | 50 | CP900+
Born: 2E 551
Member of: | Traders of the Covenant | Hammerfell Trading | Imperial Trading Company |
Houses: Strident Springs Demesne,4 -
SanTii.92✭✭✭✭✭
✭Well good news. After patch infused, sharp, precise and nirnhonesd will all be between 2.5% dps or less, substantially reducing the amount of grind needed.When the snows fall and the white winds blow,
the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.
Arg | Pc Na | Factionless Mag Warden.0 -
Ch4mpTW✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭400+ clears of Maelstrom Arena. I have never had a sharpened or precise inferno staff awaiting me in the last chest, or weekly reward. The same with a sharpened lightning staff.
When I was farming for Silks of the Sun epic quality jewelry, it took me 5+ hours to have a single piece of jewelry to drop for me.
I've lost count of how many runs of Crypt of Hearts 1 I've done, and I've still never had a Lich sword or shield drop for me. Not a single 1. Not even in a bad trait.
The RNG in this game is atrocious. I've played numerous games filled with RNG (e.g. Pokémon, WoW, Diablo, etc.), and none of them have disgusted me as much as ESO in regards to their loot system. In fact, some of those games have recently inplemented new systems to help lessen the grind and make the overall experience of hunting for gear more tolerable.3 -
geonsocal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I don't see nothing wrong with a little bump and grind...
public dungeons and guild stores make gear acquisition not so painful...PVP Campaigns Section: Playstation NA and EU (Gray Host) - This Must be the Place0 -
Roovin✭✭✭Guaranteed drops or getting a guaranteed drop via tokens after every 10 runs or so would be a bad idea.
The best gear in the game SHOULD be hard to get0 -
Krayzie✭✭✭✭✭Guaranteed drops or getting a guaranteed drop via tokens after every 10 runs or so would be a bad idea.
The best gear in the game SHOULD be hard to get
Agreed, this token system is a nonsense idea and is virtual p2wI'm a PVE roleplayer concerned about my vampires stage 4 skin tone and keep getting load screens so I came here to distract people from major issues with a rant thread about my characters cosmetic appearance.1 -
MarbleQuiche✭✭✭I don't see nothing wrong with a little bump and grind...
public dungeons and guild stores make gear acquisition not so painful...
Most people want gear from private dungeons where the drops are bind-on-pickup.Currently obsessed with battlegrounds. Spamming here between rounds. Sometimes, when forums are particularly good, I skip ballerina around*
*autocorrected nonsense, but it sounds amusing enough to me that I've taken up ballet1 -
Graydon✭✭✭✭✭MudkipKatana wrote: »
Grinding is absolutely zero fun. I play for fun.
Grinding does not mean hard...it means boring.
I think it's great advice.4 -
BrightOblivion✭✭✭✭✭
First off, p2w (Pay To Win) would be if they allowed you to buy golden weapons with perfect traits from the crown store. If you are using any in-game currency to get them, be it gold, AP, Tel Var, or these supposed tokens, to buy anything, that's not p2w. It's using the in-game economy as it should be used. There is no such thing as "virtual p2w" in that sense.
Secondly, I don't perceive it as a nonsense idea at all. In its base form, it's actually extremely helpful and highly beneficial to the health of a non-Asian-grindfest MMO. Why, you ask? Because, unaided, grinding for gear is literally insanity as defined by Einstein- doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. People can, and do, run through group dungeons or trials fifty, one hundred, even 500 times without getting what they're looking for, and wind up no closer to getting what they were after than when they started. They could get it the next run, or it could be another five hundred runs before they get it. (And for those saying "Just don't grind, just settle, it's all close enough," that's great and all, but it also strikes me as a cop-out and an excuse for a system that could and should be better than it is.)
And when they do get the item after all those runs? There's no euphoria, no excitement. All there is is "Finally! Now I don't have to set foot in this friggleniffin place again...until they inevitably completely change the meta in another two months." I'm not sure whose idea it was that unaided, uninhibited RNG was fun, but they were mistaken. RNG is not fun. If you don't believe me, boot up a random number generator on google, set your field equal to 1000, and keep pushing the button until it comes up with the number 237. You got it yet? Congratulations. You win. Wasn't that fun? Now imagine you can only push that button once every 30 minutes to an hour.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying we should completely eliminate RNG or make everything guaranteed. This is an MMO after all, and so some degree of RNG is expected, even required, partially to encourage replayability (even though content should be fun/challenging enough that people want to replay it with or without RNG) and partially to make it so that there's some challenge in getting that best in slot gear, so you appreciate it more. However, what I am saying is that it wouldn't be a bad idea to have some sort of safety net/ insurance policy to ensure that, even if the vet dungeon refuses to give you that precise dagger you've been trying to get for months on end and only gives you prosperous daggers (when it gives you daggers at all), you are still, slowly but surely, working toward your desire.
Notice how I said "slowly"? That's because, under most suggestions of the token system, it isn't 10 runs and you're done. One of the more common ones mentioned 200 tokens to get the item/trait combo that you want (possibly less if you want to pick just the item or just the trait, and maybe more), with you earning 1 token per normal run, 2 per vet, and maybe 3 per Vet HM run. If you include vMA in this, set it to 200+ tokens for your weapons, with you earning one token per vet run. Or 2 per vet run, but still 0 per normal so that there's not a massive uproar (again) over the possibility of people getting these oh-so-powerful weapons in normal mode. Heck, for that matter, make it so that accessing the token store requires certain achievements (though probably not the Challenger/ Complete every single achievement for this dungeon achieves, as that seems somewhat ridiculous).
"But Bright," you (or someone) might argue, "it took me over 1500 runs to get my sharpened lich one-handed sword! I still don't have my sturdy lich shield 500 runs later! How dare you suggest they make it easier for everyone else?! They should suffer just as much as I did! JUST AS MUCH!"
Truly, I'm sorry that RNG decided to spit in your corn flakes. I really am. However, what you're describing is defined in economics as a "sunk cost." What that means is that no matter what you or anyone else does, you aren't getting it back. As such, when making a decision in an informed manner, you need to disregard it. If you're having trouble doing that and only gaining satisfaction/ value from watching everyone else struggle just as hard if not harder than you did, then perhaps you need to re-examine whether that item is as valuable to you as you think and where you think your own value lies. But that's an unrelated, unnecessary philosophical tangent for a time that isn't this one.
OP- Yes, the grinding in this game, while better than the Asian-MMO-style grindfests, is still rather ridiculous and incredibly frustrating. Yes, something should be done to alleviate it, at least a little. No, I wouldn't advise holding your breath while waiting for that solution to come about.
TL;DR- Seriously? Did you really expect me to leave a short, sweet little summary for you? Why on Earth (or Nirn) would I spend all that time thinking and writing something out, just so you could skip to the end, read a tiny blurb, and move on with your day? If I think it's worth my time to write it, I certainly feel it's worth your time to read it- all of it. Honestly!
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Mondini✭✭✭✭Lol this guy wasn't here when silver and gold keys were. Do you know how easy you got it dude? every 6 months new people hit max level (which is like 2 vet rank 16 chars) and chat bobba on the forums about how hard it is getting bis gear. Back when you got 1 KEY and there were 2 PLEDGES. 1 Gold Guaranteed and 1 silver which was RNG. You crying to the wrong people.
Also RIP balance if 2h is 2 set pieces.2 -
zergbase_ESO✭✭✭✭Lol this guy wasn't here when silver and gold keys were. Do you know how easy you got it dude? every 6 months new people hit max level (which is like 2 vet rank 16 chars) and chat bobba on the forums about how hard it is getting bis gear. Back when you got 1 KEY and there were 2 PLEDGES. 1 Gold Guaranteed and 1 silver which was RNG. You crying to the wrong people.
Also RIP balance if 2h is 2 set pieces.
If 2h was two set pieces... my sorc be a bit OP in pvp....
But token system honestly needed man. Not fun to grind for days and get training monster shoulder... like a massive slap in face when such happens sadly
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Maybe one day we will get a token system and dev team will learn that too much grinding is not fun.0 -
BrightOblivion✭✭✭✭✭Lol this guy wasn't here when silver and gold keys were. Do you know how easy you got it dude? every 6 months new people hit max level (which is like 2 vet rank 16 chars) and chat bobba on the forums about how hard it is getting bis gear. Back when you got 1 KEY and there were 2 PLEDGES. 1 Gold Guaranteed and 1 silver which was RNG. You crying to the wrong people.
Also RIP balance if 2h is 2 set pieces.
Just because it is better than it was does not mean that it should not be better than it is. Steps in the right direction do not mean that the journey has ended...or something like that.0 -
MudkipKatana✭✭Lol this guy wasn't here when silver and gold keys were. Do you know how easy you got it dude? every 6 months new people hit max level (which is like 2 vet rank 16 chars) and chat bobba on the forums about how hard it is getting bis gear. Back when you got 1 KEY and there were 2 PLEDGES. 1 Gold Guaranteed and 1 silver which was RNG. You crying to the wrong people.
Also RIP balance if 2h is 2 set pieces.
You're right. I don't know how easy I have it. I wasn't here for ESO before Tamriel One, I didn't play on release. I picked this game up in October last year because I needed a new outlet for my free time besides League. I can't change the past, and any difficulties those have had farming in the past is not my fault. You knew full well when farming these what you were getting into. As do I while currently playing the game. No one here is crying. I'm simply offering a solution to reducing the stress associated with farming. One that doesn't insult the player and rather encourages players to improve by forcing them to take on harder content and learn mechanics while striving for an clearer end result. My problem with with farming in this game doesn't lie inherently in the farming process, it lies within the lack of clarity. Farming dungeons over and over for a chance a small chance to get something is not healthy... For you or for the gameplay. All that does is encourage toxicity where it need not lie.MudkipKatana wrote: »
Grinding is absolutely zero fun. I play for fun.
Grinding does not mean hard...it means boring.
I think it's great advice.
No, telling people to give up is always bad advice. You're right, grinding is boring, you should play to have fun. But in order to have fun, you first have to work. Work hard, play hard. Acquire the gear you need to play harder and more challenging content. All you do by giving up is resign yourself to playing lesser content repeatedly. That isn't fun in my opinion. I'd rather sacrifice some time to get set-up so that I can explore more of what the game has to offer. I'm not ultra competitive, I'm not gonna bother Min/Maxing my stats. I simply want to get my character to point that allows them to continue moving further. As both a Tank and DPS player, I need to be able to reach numbers that are acceptable for most vet content groups. That way I don't hold them back. If you're incapable of understanding that, then maybe you should stay away from any group activities period.Submit to the Argonian Master Race. Submit and be free.0 -
KingRegis✭✭grindign for gear isn't frustrating what is frustrating is being able to do it since the group finder is trashI am Regis Solis the wandering warrior socerer0 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭It's easy.
Just dont grind. Seriously. Just let go.
There needs to be something in between the grind for rng and giving up on gear.
As the OP said, some grinding is fine. The problem is that with random rewards, there will be outliers who will grind for a year without getting what they want.
I suppose the counter argument is make the best of what you do get. But that can be drastic if your stamina character keeps getting destro staff drops.0 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
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That comment makes no sense. It is in no sense p2w because you are doing the content to earn your rewards. Right now we have spin to win.
And the previous comment is a bit shallow. "Hard to get" is not the problem. No progress is the problem. If I did VMA 100 times and you never did it and we both want the same piece, we have an equal chance of getting it. You could get it your first run, and maybe it will take me another 500 runs. Tokens would mean that you are progressing towards your goal instead of just hoping to get lucky.
My question is how many kinds of tokens will there be? Do we want people to be able to use tokens to get drops from content they haven't finished? If not, does that mean a different token for each set? Or is it enough to unlock a set by finishing content and then use tokens from any salvaged gear to buy the piece you want? If there is a vendor where you buy this, they would have an insanely large inventory! It would probably require a new UI with more filtering options.0 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭MudkipKatana wrote: »Lol this guy wasn't here when silver and gold keys were. Do you know how easy you got it dude? every 6 months new people hit max level (which is like 2 vet rank 16 chars) and chat bobba on the forums about how hard it is getting bis gear. Back when you got 1 KEY and there were 2 PLEDGES. 1 Gold Guaranteed and 1 silver which was RNG. You crying to the wrong people.
Also RIP balance if 2h is 2 set pieces.
You're right. I don't know how easy I have it. I wasn't here for ESO before Tamriel One, I didn't play on release. I picked this game up in October last year because I needed a new outlet for my free time besides League. I can't change the past, and any difficulties those have had farming in the past is not my fault. You knew full well when farming these what you were getting into. As do I while currently playing the game. No one here is crying. I'm simply offering a solution to reducing the stress associated with farming. One that doesn't insult the player and rather encourages players to improve by forcing them to take on harder content and learn mechanics while striving for an clearer end result. My problem with with farming in this game doesn't lie inherently in the farming process, it lies within the lack of clarity. Farming dungeons over and over for a chance a small chance to get something is not healthy... For you or for the gameplay. All that does is encourage toxicity where it need not lie.MudkipKatana wrote: »
Grinding is absolutely zero fun. I play for fun.
Grinding does not mean hard...it means boring.
I think it's great advice.
No, telling people to give up is always bad advice. You're right, grinding is boring, you should play to have fun. But in order to have fun, you first have to work. Work hard, play hard. Acquire the gear you need to play harder and more challenging content. All you do by giving up is resign yourself to playing lesser content repeatedly. That isn't fun in my opinion. I'd rather sacrifice some time to get set-up so that I can explore more of what the game has to offer. I'm not ultra competitive, I'm not gonna bother Min/Maxing my stats. I simply want to get my character to point that allows them to continue moving further. As both a Tank and DPS player, I need to be able to reach numbers that are acceptable for most vet content groups. That way I don't hold them back. If you're incapable of understanding that, then maybe you should stay away from any group activities period.
The problem isn't work. The problem is rewards being random. That is the point of the token suggestions. They want to work to progress toward their target. Right now, they do the work and walk away empty-handed. Since the results are random, there is going to be a bottom 1 percentile that gets garbage daily for months.0 -
disintegr8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The OP's definition of grinding is different to mine. It sounds like the OP considers grinding for the most part to be the endless repetitive search for the BiS Gear - which is still a choice to do and not forced upon you.
To me grinding is about the leveling process, the search for skill points, skyshards, lore books. The repetitive questing required to get new characters through the story lines, getting your horse training done, learning crafting, or to get many of the achievements, like Hero of your alliance, master angler, etc.
@Mondini is right, life has become so much easier for players with the dropping of the vet system and 1T. Back when I started playing, each character had to grind from level 1 to Vet 16 on their own merit, no bonuses just because you already had a vet 16 character - no speed level to 50 and have access to top level gear.
Every character had to get their of their own accord and progression through the zones gave you harder and harder content. You were limited to your own alliance areas until you got to Cadwells silver and gold - at the end of the main story line.
And yes, you had to do vet hard mode to get gold keys and access to the good chest. I have leveled up so many characters through undaunted since 1T that I have about 300 keys that I cannot be bothered using because it will just clog up my inventory.
And I have always played for fun.Australian on PS4 NA server.
Everyone's entitled to an opinion.2 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭disintegr8 wrote: »...
I have leveled up so many characters through undaunted since 1T that I have about 300 keys that I cannot be bothered using because it will just clog up my inventory.
...
Coming to ESO Plus: Monster bags!
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geonsocal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MarbleQuiche wrote: »
you're right, there's some really good sets tucked away in some of the dungeons...
that's a challenging route to take though...there have been a few sets (viper, rattlecage, burning spellweave, etc.) that I've put time into trying to collect BoP sets...
I tried to make it a little easier on myself by farming with multiple characters over a few weeks time...Edited by geonsocal on July 16, 2017 8:53PMPVP Campaigns Section: Playstation NA and EU (Gray Host) - This Must be the Place0
