2H Forceful Passive Double Dips: Mighty, Master-at-Arms, Heavy Weapons, Precise Strikes, Criticals

Avran_Sylt · July 2017

2H Forceful Double Dips into: Master at Arms, Heavy Weapons (Greatsword), Mighty, Precise Strikes, and Criticals in general.

Axe

Skeever (9100 Physical Resistance, 18.07% DR at 505 per 1%)

No CP:
Basic Attack - Base: 1,673
Basic Attack - Base - Cleave - Base: 686

Mighty - 100 - 15% increase to Physical Damage:
Basic Attack - Base: 1,924
-=|(1,673 * 1.15) = 1923.95 |=- (Looks Good)
Basic Attack - Base - Cleave - 907
-=|(1924 * 0.5) * (1-.1807) = 788.166 (Actual Higher than Calculated)
-=|(788.166 * 1.15) = 906.39|=- (Forceful Double Dips Mighty)

Physical Weapons Expert - 100 - 35% Increase to Light and Heavy Attacks:
Basic Attack - Base: 2258
-=|(1,673 * 1.35) = 2,258.55|=- (Looks Good)
Basic Attack - Base - Cleave - Base: 926
-=|(2,258 * 0.5) * (1-.1807) = 925.215|=- (Looks Good)

Master at Arms - 100 = 25% Increase to Direct Damage:
Basic Attack - Base: 2091
-=|(1,673 * 1.25) = 2,091 |=- (Looks Good)
Basic Attack - Base - Cleave - Base: 1071
-=| (2,091 * 0.5) * (1-0.1807) = 856.68 (Actual Higher than Calculated)
-=| (856.68 * 1.25) = 1,070.85 |=- (Forceful Double Dips Master at Arms)

Precise Strikes - 100 - 25% increase in Stamina ability Crit values:
Basic Attack - Base: 1,673
Basic Attack - Base - Cleave - Base: 686
-=| (1,673 * 0.5) * (1-0.1807) = 685.34 |=- (Looks Good)
Basic Attack - Base - Cleave - Critical: 1,200
-=| (686 * 1.75) = 1,199.35 |=- (Looks Good)

Basic Attack - Critical: 2,927
-=| (1,573 * 1.75) = 2,927.75 |=- (Looks Good)
Basic Attack - Critical - Cleave - Base 1,200
-=| (2,927 * 0.5) * (1-0.1807) = 1,199.35 |=- (Evaluated from Post Crit Value)
Basic Attack - Critical - Cleave - Critical: 2,099
-= (1,200 * 1.75) = 2,100 |=- (Crit bonus has now multiplied with itself)

Forceful damage should be based off of non-crit value. It should then have a chance to crit (IMO) Otherwise it'll stack multiplicatively, which could be an issue down the road.

Greatsword

Heavy Weapons - 2/2 - 5% increase in Damage:
Basic Attack -Base: 1,756
-=| (1,673 * 1.05) = 1,756.65 |=- (Looks Good)
Basic Attack - Base - Cleave - Base: 755
-=| (1,756 * 0.5) * (1-0.1807) = 719.6 |=- (Actual Higher than Calculated
-=| (719.6 * 1.05) = 755.59 |=- (Forceful Double Dips Heavy Weapons)

2H Forceful Tooltip is raised by: Master at Arms, Heavy Weapons (Greatsword), and Mighty (but has no impact on damage)

No CP:

Mighty - 100 - 15% increase to Physical Damage:

Master at Arms - 100 = 25% Increase to Direct Damage:

Heavy Weapons - 2/2 - 5% increase in Damage:

All Three:

PC NA - PTS

Avran_Sylt · July 2017

Main post updated with images.

Avran_Sylt · July 2017

Added in images of the Tooltip getting influenced by the aforementioned damage boosts, split the issues into two sections. I'll likely leave this post as it is now.

Avran_Sylt · July 2017

It'll likely also double dip into Minor Berserk, Major Berserk, and have a questionable interaction with Minor Vulnerability. (should the target that takes additional damage also cause the nearby targets to take additional damage from the cleave, even though they don't have Minor Vulnerability?)

ZOS_GinaBruno · July 2017

Thanks @Avran_Sylt, we're working on getting this fixed.

xaraan · July 2017

Kind of weird that it's double dipping into bonuses and still arguably about equal to Duel Wield (not to mention losing the extra gear slot by using two weapons). Maybe I'm not taking advantage well enough of the double dipping to see a difference, but right now 2H and DW are working about equally as well for me (sometimes one a little better than the other depending on type of fight).

Avran_Sylt · July 2017

@xaraan

It's since the Forceful damage is only useful in multi-target situations. Of which the 2H is still sub-par at.

xaraan · July 2017

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@xaraan

It's since the Forceful damage is only useful in multi-target situations. Of which the 2H is still sub-par at.

Hmm, I'm seeing opposite, the 2H is better for me AoE and the DW better single target. The splash damage it does now is the only reason 2H is even useful at the moment for me. If this 'fix' makes it weaker, then they should buff 2h splash officially.

Though I will say I'm talking PvE, in PvP I like 2H better than DW.

edit: I guess to me, this is the first time using either DW or 2H seems equally useful

Avran_Sylt · July 2017

@xaraan

I could be wrong, I normally just use Caltrops,Hail, and Whirlwind for PvE AoE, But fixing this will make the damage from Forceful weaker overall, and I do think that it needs to be buffed.

xaraan · July 2017

I can definitely see the reasoning behind DW having better AoE than 2H, but 2H isn't super strong vs DW on single target (unless you are talking pvp where you don't really do the same type of rotation). So having it be equally useful in AoE is at least an equalizer IMO without making single target 2H too strong for pvp. Maybe numbers wise it won't matter much if fixed, but if it's noticeable and no longer equal to DW is usefulness, then it definitely needs a buff. It's already weaker just by the fact you can run 2 5pc and a boss set with DW.

Avran_Sylt · July 2017

@xaraan

Yeah, though I always thought that DW should've been the single target weapon class, whereas 2H should've been the AoE choice, meaning melee dps would be using DW/2H instead of DW/Bow. (then creating additional ranged weapons that function as single/AoE as well (Longbow/Shortbow)). but i guess that ship has sailed.

xaraan · July 2017

I'm not sure of the perfect math solution either, so I have trouble arguing the numbers portion of things. I can only say that I like the fact that now using a 2H has been as equally useful as DW is nice to see for a change. It is annoying to lose that extra set slot, but 2H is a fun style. I'd hate to see it go back to what it was and be an easy second tier vs DW.

Avran_Sylt · July 2017

@xaraan

yeah, it's a fun style, I should've mentioned when I was talking about 2H being AoE that it'd have morphs that change the AoE abilities into single target versions, (and DW have morphs for single target abilities that change them to AoE). Such that they become interchangeable with minor differences in their base application of damage (2H having passive cleave, DW having passive execute)

Solinur · July 2017

Since forceful depends on the damage of the light or heavy attack to begin with it should probably be uncritable and not be influenced by cp. It will then get only affected by the base attack (which of course can be altered by cp, buffs, ...). But as people have pointed out it feels not overly strong now, so maybe buff it a little too mitigate the effect of the fix?

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · July 2017

I am not sure why this is a problem, the numbers you can reach are not all that big, not sure why you would point this out, I wouldn't even can this double dipping, I would consider the passive a separate entity then the main attack, it is simply calulated off of.

Avran_Sylt · July 2017

@lightningspeedb16_ESO

It's a mechanics issue much the same with the lightning staff. I honestly would love to see the forceful passive get buffed, but in the future if anything interesting is done with it, for better consistency it's best that this be handled.

IMO it'll make it a helluva lot easier to balance and buff if it functions normally.

blur · July 2017

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Thanks @Avran_Sylt, we're working on getting this fixed.

@ZOS_GinaBruno could you do everyone a favor and actually test his findings in case he is wrong? Particularly against other players? Goodness forbid you nerf something that doesn't need a nerf.