The Streamer/YouTuber Problem With ESO

Ch4mpTW · July 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

Dude! I had to laugh! "Netch vs Necropotence" question I get that all the time now too!

@Waffennacht I'm happy to know that I made you laugh, and that we could connect on something. I always try to connect with the readers of my threads. Even if it's just 1 person. As long as there is a mutual common grounds, and that link of relating to what I say has been established? Then I am satisfied. Even more so if I can brighten up a person's day.

Fur_like_snow · July 2017

Every build has some sort of learning curve and some players will naturally pick up a play style faster than others. It's the idea that if I gave someone a pair of Jordan's(in this case a build) and a jersey then told him to go ball(pvp) with the pros(experienced players) that person would reasonably fail without months possibly years worth of practice(skill rotation). It's not the builds that is faulty it is the player who hasn't exceeded the learning curve and mastered the play style.

I don't blame streamers for releasing builds they're simply trying to help others with less play time by giving them a starting point not a destination.

Nifty2g · July 2017

In a game so heavily based on calculations, you're pretty much going to always have best in slot builds. The thing with streamers especially with @Alcast in particular is that they are giving you these builds that have been tested and they have been tested to pretty high standards with proper rotations, then made in a build video for you. Alcast is in a top end raid guild so his audience he is aiming for is probably players that want to get into end game raiding at a high level.

Also don't even put the blame on those guys, if a player wants to chase certain gear it's probably because they want to be at a higher level and that's pretty cool. There are plenty of other not so high end builds around, but the way ESO works you're probably better off with these builds anyway.

Zorgon_The_Revenged · July 2017

.....people still play this game?

josiahva · July 2017

Like I have always said. For every game out there...the "Meta" is always a lie. There is no "BiS" that is universal to all players. As an example, as a tank in 4 man content I often use Mystic Guard...no one uses that skill...but I find it to be very useful in 4 man content with my particular build and playstyle(I just wish there were a morph that extended it to 2 players instead of just one). On my dmg tank, I use Rattlecage/Way of Martial Knowledge...what? way of martial knowledge? Yes, an obscure set that suits my particular playstyle on that build(though admittedly more for the 4 piece bonus than the 5 piece which is only active when I have S&B up). I could care less what the "Meta" is on my builds...or supposed BiS gear for it(that dmg tank uses charged instead of sharpened to maximize exploiter perk, I also used 7 piece infused armor). Just like it should be...each toon of mine that I build is built for a specific purpose and tweaked around my particular playstyle. Do I use mainstream sets? Sure, but I dont blindly use them and I certainly dont use ones that dont fit my playstyle. Am I worried about having the highest DPS? The toughest Tank? The biggest heals? No...why would I? The fact is...there will ALWAYS be someone out there that is better at something, I dont try to beat them at their game since its an exercise in chasing my own tail to do so. Do I make sure I can meet the standards expected of me in the content I build the toon for? I sure do, HOW I get there is up to me though...no reason for me to blindly follow some build posted on youtube when I can build one that works better for me.

Drummerx04 · July 2017

My first tier meta triggering comes up mostly when I see zone chat asking, "What's the strongest class rn in pve/pvp? I saw some video saying magsorc OP is that true, etc"

It's like... seriously just play the game and find something that works for you.

But the gear meta questions probably just as bad. "Need more for netches touch farm" I got netches just to see what all the fuss was about... basically I got marginally higher dps than julianos gear, and a fire backbar with a magdk in group and someone else providing offbalance probably outperforms netch easily.

AhPook_Is_Here · July 2017

Honestly you might as well complain to the sun not to let the earth rotate because everyone gets used to seeing the same sun come up every day.

Streamers compete with streamers for views, likes, patreon donations, and on and on and on, so why would one of them stop doing something that makes them money and is popular knowing that by stopping others wouldn't and just capture his views instead? Even if half stopped the other half would capture a ton of viewership from those that had stopped doing build videos and be quite happy about their additional revenue.

Build videos are popular because people are lazy and want to get to quick and easy solutions to better in game returns on their time. Less lazy people capitalize on this by free-market transactions derived from sharing their successful knowledge. You might as well be demanding capitalism stop. You might as well tell humans to stop being humans. You might as well change your forum name to Marx_Engels. The only way you can accomplish what you hope for is to create a streaming cartel with large barriers to access, like networks do with say the Superbowl, (3 networks take turns to avoid price competition). Just buy up all those venues and then decide who gets to stream and what is valid content and our "problem" will be solved.

Not that you don't have a nice wish, but what you are asking for is just rhetoric, persuasive; meaningless.

dday3six · July 2017

This whole post seems like a rant to cover OP from being butthurt about someone questioning the origins of OP's pet build.

COFFAN · July 2017

I like the point of this post... cause I never follow YouTube/streamer advise... cause "I DO WHAT I WANT"!!!

Ch4mpTW · July 2017

dday3six wrote: »

This whole post seems like a rant to cover OP from being butthurt about someone questioning the origins of OP's pet build.

@dday3six I probably shouldn't respond, but sure. I'll bite your bait. Why not feed the troll, as it's a Friday. And plus, I'm feeling quite generous.

The origins of my pet build you say...? It's no secret that a lot of my pet build influence has the origins from @Thelon . In fact, I've many times gave him numerous amounts of credit for making me find comfort in the fact that I always liked pet builds, and sticking with them. More so than going and following what was trending for Sorcerers. Whether it was 2 Torug's Pact swords, or Martial Knowlege, or Elegance, etc. I always stayed true to pet builds, because of how awesome I had seen Thelon use them.

I also was always so passionate and loving of pet builds, because I was a loner for the most part. Still kinda am, although not really (being as just a week or so ago I finally made my own guild). And pet builds helped me clear content on my own. They made me feel empowered, and also made me not rely on others for help. I became literally obsessed with any and everything about pet build, and would follow Thelon's theorycrafting posts on Tamriel Foundry regularly. I literally was so focused on pet builds, that it cost me numerous guild opportunities in the past. As at the time, it was viewed hat you were a liability if you ran pets. A scrub. A newbie. But me? I always knew otherwise. And I refused to give-up on them. Even to this day, my main (MagSorc) is a PetSorc. And he forever will be 1, so long as ZOS allows Sorcerers to have access to pets.

In fact, even many players in-game such as @Vaoh knows my obsession with pets. @Mortehl does, @KingYogi415 does, @UltimaJoe777 does, etc. Pretty much anyone who plays on PS4-NA that knows of me, knows of my kinda creepy obsession with pet builds. Lol.

SanTii.92 · July 2017

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

If anyone think that a build-video is the one truth / that what's being shown is the best, no questions asked and there are*no* alternatives..... You really need to re-think the way you view guides / suggestions. Actually scratch that, you need to re-think your entire life. Do you just take what people tell you works - without questioning it or asking about it? Do you never ask questions - look for other options?

There is no "Streamer/Youtuber"-problem with ESO. There's a problem with the players - that just eats whatever gets fed to them without questioning or looking for alternatives. You can't blame that on the Streamers/YouTubers. It's just people accepting/eating whatever gets fed without thinking for themselves. Which is pretty dumb.

That's some pretty thought-provoking and strong posting right there. I can definitely see where you are coming from, and can agree (to an extent). However, the source is still the streamers and Internet personalities. Why? Because, they are still the ones pumping out a lot of the stuff that sometimes they themselves don't even fully understand. And then having those who are completely unaware stumbling across it, becoming absorbed by it, and then parroting what it is that they heard/read.

This is truly mind boggling. Streamers might develop content for several reasons, personal gain, entertaintment, cause they actually want an informed community, or whatever they can think of, but to account them responsible because viewers, or regular Eso players aren't good enough is straight up ridiculouse.

There is no problem with Streamers or Youtubers whatsoever, or if any it would be that ZOS hasn't done enough to help them market their game. They do not have moral resposabilties towards the players of any kind, nor is their job is to teach how the game should be played.

GeorgeBlack · July 2017

Shuffle is the most BiS skill in the game. It needs to be looked at.

dday3six · July 2017

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

dday3six wrote: »

This whole post seems like a rant to cover OP from being butthurt about someone questioning the origins of OP's pet build.

dday3six I probably shouldn't respond, but sure. I'll bite your bait. Why not feed the troll, as it's a Friday. And plus, I'm feeling quite generous.

The origins of my pet build you say...? It's no secret that a lot of my pet build influence has the origins from Thelon . In fact, I've many times gave him numerous amounts of credit for making me find comfort in the fact that I always liked pet builds, and sticking with them. More so than going and following what was trending for Sorcerers. Whether it was 2 Torug's Pact swords, or Martial Knowlege, or Elegance, etc. I always stayed true to pet builds, because of how awesome I had seen Thelon use them.

I also was always so passionate and loving of pet builds, because I was a loner for the most part. Still kinda am, although not really (being as just a week or so ago I finally made my own guild). And pet builds helped me clear content on my own. They made me feel empowered, and also made me not rely on others for help. I became literally obsessed with any and everything about pet build, and would follow Thelon's theorycrafting posts on Tamriel Foundry regularly. I literally was so focused on pet builds, that it cost me numerous guild opportunities in the past. As at the time, it was viewed hat you were a liability if you ran pets. A scrub. A newbie. But me? I always knew otherwise. And I refused to give-up on them. Even to this day, my main (MagSorc) is a PetSorc. And he forever will be 1, so long as ZOS allows Sorcerers to have access to pets.

In fact, even many players in-game such as Vaoh knows my obsession with pets. Mortehl does, KingYogi415 does, UltimaJoe777 does, etc. Pretty much anyone who plays on PS4-NA that knows of me, knows of my kinda creepy obsession with pet builds. Lol.

Like I said "butthurt". I didn't question your pet builds origins. However in your wall-o-text you mentioned it happened in game. I believe that to be the real reason for this thread. I also think your need to double down and explain how your build was shaped lends credit to my assertions. I wasn't trolling, I was calling it like I saw it.

Rouven · July 2017

What we are looking at here is a typical EEOC.

Equipment Exceeds Operator Capabilities

fioskal · July 2017

Nifty2g wrote: »

In a game so heavily based on calculations, you're pretty much going to always have best in slot builds. The thing with streamers especially with @Alcast in particular is that they are giving you these builds that have been tested and they have been tested to pretty high standards with proper rotations, then made in a build video for you. Alcast is in a top end raid guild so his audience he is aiming for is probably players that want to get into end game raiding at a high level.

Also don't even put the blame on those guys, if a player wants to chase certain gear it's probably because they want to be at a higher level and that's pretty cool. There are plenty of other not so high end builds around, but the way ESO works you're probably better off with these builds anyway.

I agree with both nifty and the OP, to some extent.

In this game (and really most MMOs), there's always going to be builds that are better than others. I highly appreciate the people that do the research, crunch the numbers, and attempt to make these builds available to other players - I've saved many hours and avoided a lot of frustrating math using them as a basis for my toons.

Something to keep in mind though is that different builds have different purposes - min/maxing for trials, quick and easy dungeon runs, PvP zergs, 1vX for PvP, etc etc. Just blindly following a build, without understanding it, without taking the time to look at alternatives and at least make the effort of understanding said build and its purpose, is doing no one any good. A new player blindly grabbing a build from Alcast's website isn't going to suddenly pull 50k DPS. Gotta put in the time and effort to not only learn the build and make adjustments for your own personal play style, but also to understand why a build recommends certain things and why those things are effective (or not) for specific situations.

Meta is great, but just blindly following meta isn't gonna get you anywhere.

Kay1 · July 2017

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

I don't quite understand the complaint @Ch4mpTW

Of course there are sets that achieve certain goals with your build, but the only way for any beginner to "git gud" at PVP is spending lots of time dueling - ideally dueling someone over and over who is better.

You beat a guy with similar DK build, this is not anything bad, it's a good thing, he's learning how to play in PVP by dueling you. Hopefully you can spend more time dueling him so he can improve.

Nobody improves at PVP just from watching a video. You have to spend a lot of time practicing.

You're so wrong.

Duels are not going to teach you ANYTHING, Cyrodiil is not Stormhaven is another world.

If you want to become godlike in PvP what you have to do is Solo PvP and more Solo, solo and solo and more Solo, die and comeback, retry, you die again? Comeback and retry.

That's how I become the player I am now, by loosing and dying, duels won't teach you that.

SanTii.92 · July 2017

Kay1 wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

I don't quite understand the complaint @Ch4mpTW

Of course there are sets that achieve certain goals with your build, but the only way for any beginner to "git gud" at PVP is spending lots of time dueling - ideally dueling someone over and over who is better.

You beat a guy with similar DK build, this is not anything bad, it's a good thing, he's learning how to play in PVP by dueling you. Hopefully you can spend more time dueling him so he can improve.

Nobody improves at PVP just from watching a video. You have to spend a lot of time practicing.

You're so wrong.

Duels are not going to teach you ANYTHING, Cyrodiil is not Stormhaven is another world.

If you want to become godlike in PvP what you have to do is Solo PvP and more Solo, solo and solo and more Solo, die and comeback, retry, you die again? Comeback and retry.

That's how I become the player I am now, by loosing and dying, duels won't teach you that.

Not only you are the wrong here, you learn plenty dueling better players, but aslo Icy didn't said that was the only way to become better. Hell, he even stated pretty clearly.

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Nobody improves at PVP just from watching a video. You have to spend a lot of time practicing.

But Hey! Maybe it was a streamer fault that you couldn't read properly...

Takes-No-Prisoner · July 2017

Too add to Kay1's comment;

Duel's are not any indication of individual skill. This is an MMO, it's inherently based off of group play. Dueling becomes way too one sided due to multiple factors being;

1. Every skill used by players is balanced in group play, not 1v1 combat.
2. Number crunching(or FOTM); the guy who crunches his gear and numbers the best, will win the fight.
3. Latency and location where duel takes place effects players responsiveness to some degree, this isn't including things like their internet speeds.

Cyrodiil is a wild an unpredictable animal. Where any second I could be ambushed from the trees by a enemy nightblade. Situational awareness, group play, survivability-- this is Cyrodiil PVP, the basis of which PvPers should judge them selves by. How well they juggle the different aspects of gameplay in this realm and how they assist other players.

Dueling teaches none of these skill-sets, it's purely a side attraction.

nimander99 · July 2017

Hey @Ch4mpTW should I only go for Netch's Touch or Necropotence for my Sorc?

idk · July 2017

Nifty2g wrote: »

In a game so heavily based on calculations, you're pretty much going to always have best in slot builds. The thing with streamers especially with @Alcast in particular is that they are giving you these builds that have been tested and they have been tested to pretty high standards with proper rotations, then made in a build video for you. Alcast is in a top end raid guild so his audience he is aiming for is probably players that want to get into end game raiding at a high level.

Also don't even put the blame on those guys, if a player wants to chase certain gear it's probably because they want to be at a higher level and that's pretty cool. There are plenty of other not so high end builds around, but the way ESO works you're probably better off with these builds anyway.

These comments are correct and sum things up in a straight forward manner.

Granted, players can have goals other than reaching their max potential for dps and that's fine.

However, the builds presented by quite a few top players including @alcast are solid and proven. Heck, alcast even provides a broader picture including CP for those that are not called as well as some sustain options. Great ideas he presents.

Kay1 · July 2017

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Kay1 wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

I don't quite understand the complaint @Ch4mpTW

Of course there are sets that achieve certain goals with your build, but the only way for any beginner to "git gud" at PVP is spending lots of time dueling - ideally dueling someone over and over who is better.

You beat a guy with similar DK build, this is not anything bad, it's a good thing, he's learning how to play in PVP by dueling you. Hopefully you can spend more time dueling him so he can improve.

Nobody improves at PVP just from watching a video. You have to spend a lot of time practicing.

You're so wrong.

Duels are not going to teach you ANYTHING, Cyrodiil is not Stormhaven is another world.

If you want to become godlike in PvP what you have to do is Solo PvP and more Solo, solo and solo and more Solo, die and comeback, retry, you die again? Comeback and retry.

That's how I become the player I am now, by loosing and dying, duels won't teach you that.

Not only you are the wrong here, you learn plenty dueling better players, but aslo Icy didn't said that was the only way to become better. Hell, he even stated pretty clearly.

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Nobody improves at PVP just from watching a video. You have to spend a lot of time practicing.

But Hey! Maybe it was a streamer fault that you couldn't read properly...

You don't learn anything, maybe you are the one who need to read properly

Or maybe get some glasses I don't know

but the only way for any beginner to "git gud" at PVP is spending lots of time dueling - ideally dueling someone over and over who is better.

Ch4mpTW · July 2017

Kay1 wrote: »

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Kay1 wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

I don't quite understand the complaint @Ch4mpTW

Of course there are sets that achieve certain goals with your build, but the only way for any beginner to "git gud" at PVP is spending lots of time dueling - ideally dueling someone over and over who is better.

You beat a guy with similar DK build, this is not anything bad, it's a good thing, he's learning how to play in PVP by dueling you. Hopefully you can spend more time dueling him so he can improve.

Nobody improves at PVP just from watching a video. You have to spend a lot of time practicing.

You're so wrong.

Duels are not going to teach you ANYTHING, Cyrodiil is not Stormhaven is another world.

If you want to become godlike in PvP what you have to do is Solo PvP and more Solo, solo and solo and more Solo, die and comeback, retry, you die again? Comeback and retry.

That's how I become the player I am now, by loosing and dying, duels won't teach you that.

Not only you are the wrong here, you learn plenty dueling better players, but aslo Icy didn't said that was the only way to become better. Hell, he even stated pretty clearly.

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Nobody improves at PVP just from watching a video. You have to spend a lot of time practicing.

But Hey! Maybe it was a streamer fault that you couldn't read properly...

You don't learn anything, maybe you are the one who need to read properly

Or maybe get some glasses I don't know

but the only way for any beginner to "git gud" at PVP is spending lots of time dueling - ideally dueling someone over and over who is better.

To be 100% honest, I got the vast majority of my "skills" from spending lots of hours in Maelstrom Arena (Veteran). That is where I can truly say that I went in 1 way, and came out entirely different. I learned to be more aware of my surroundings, and pay attention to my resources a lot more. Granted I don't take PvP that serious anymore, but I can truly say that spending time in VMA made me a better PvP'er.

Edit: Ugh... I can't believe I just classified myself as a PvP'er. But, I suppose that title fits for the given circumstance.

Kay1 · July 2017

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Kay1 wrote: »

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Kay1 wrote: »

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

I don't quite understand the complaint @Ch4mpTW

Of course there are sets that achieve certain goals with your build, but the only way for any beginner to "git gud" at PVP is spending lots of time dueling - ideally dueling someone over and over who is better.

You beat a guy with similar DK build, this is not anything bad, it's a good thing, he's learning how to play in PVP by dueling you. Hopefully you can spend more time dueling him so he can improve.

Nobody improves at PVP just from watching a video. You have to spend a lot of time practicing.

You're so wrong.

Duels are not going to teach you ANYTHING, Cyrodiil is not Stormhaven is another world.

If you want to become godlike in PvP what you have to do is Solo PvP and more Solo, solo and solo and more Solo, die and comeback, retry, you die again? Comeback and retry.

That's how I become the player I am now, by loosing and dying, duels won't teach you that.

Not only you are the wrong here, you learn plenty dueling better players, but aslo Icy didn't said that was the only way to become better. Hell, he even stated pretty clearly.

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Nobody improves at PVP just from watching a video. You have to spend a lot of time practicing.

But Hey! Maybe it was a streamer fault that you couldn't read properly...

You don't learn anything, maybe you are the one who need to read properly

Or maybe get some glasses I don't know

but the only way for any beginner to "git gud" at PVP is spending lots of time dueling - ideally dueling someone over and over who is better.

To be 100% honest, I got the vast majority of my "skills" from spending lots of hours in Maelstrom Arena (Veteran). That is where I can truly say that I went in 1 way, and came out entirely different. I learned to be more aware of my surroundings, and pay attention to my resources a lot more. Granted I don't take PvP that serious anymore, but I can truly say that spending time in VMA made me a better PvP'er.

Edit: Ugh... I can't believe I just classified myself as a PvP'er. But, I suppose that title fits for the given circumstance.

No, you are right I forgot that thanks for adding it in the conversation.

Even if vMsa is PvE it teach you how to handle multiple adds while self buffing yourself and dealing damage, that's my daily in PvP so yeah you do improve by doing vMsa, as a PvE and as a PvP players those type of arenas have always been a very good source to improve your skill as a player because you only rely on yourself.

IcyDeadPeople · July 2017

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

Too add to Kay1's comment;

Duel's are not any indication of individual skill. This is an MMO, it's inherently based off of group play. Dueling becomes way too one sided due to multiple factors being;

1. Every skill used by players is balanced in group play, not 1v1 combat.
2. Number crunching(or FOTM); the guy who crunches his gear and numbers the best, will win the fight.
3. Latency and location where duel takes place effects players responsiveness to some degree, this isn't including things like their internet speeds.

Cyrodiil is a wild an unpredictable animal. Where any second I could be ambushed from the trees by a enemy nightblade. Situational awareness, group play, survivability-- this is Cyrodiil PVP, the basis of which PvPers should judge them selves by. How well they juggle the different aspects of gameplay in this realm and how they assist other players.

Dueling teaches none of these skill-sets, it's purely a side attraction.

Well, if your goal is improving at large group keep assaults, the way to practice and improve is spend a lot of time running in large groups assaulting keeps. If your goal is improving at healing, obviously dueling is not helpful.

If your goal is to learn the basics of how to survive 1v1 and small scale battles, the way to improve is to practice dueling over and over somebody who is better than you. If you are having a lot of trouble fighting against a specific kind of build like magicka sorcs or NBs, etc, ask a friend who plays that class well to duel you over and over. This is how you learn how to counter those kinds of builds.

Some people focus on dueling to the point where they are using a completely different dueling build catered to every opponent and just trying to win tons of duels. Of course that is a certain way to enjoy the game.

But if you are serious about improving your skill at 1v1s and small fights in overland Cyrodiil, you should instead practice with your Cyrodiil build over and over, dueling a friend who is better than you are. You need to become skilled at using your CCs, burst combo and managing resources in this kind of fight, etc.

Dueling doesn't teach you theorycrafting obviously, but it's how you test and refine your PVP build ideas.

Malmai · July 2017

Useless woe for ppl with brains when i saw this i remembered my father told me i must not speak to strangers...

Waffennacht · July 2017

I've found that my biggest competition comes from duels, never faced an as skilled player in open PvP 1v1 as in a duel

Plus Flawless title is a sure fire way to get my attention

EpicSpaceMoose · July 2017

LOL could you sound like more of a pretentious ***, oh I was using the meta before all of you, give it a rest. All you do on this forum is whine and complain, move along to writing your next post berating the game.

Magıc · July 2017

Well actually you're wrong for PvP. If you wear proc sets, the gear makes the player. And the game has slowly became like that over time. Numbers win everytime, gear wins most of the time.

Skill in this game is slowly going out the window in PvP, although in PvE it isn't as bad.

Kodrac · July 2017

EpicSpaceMoose wrote: »

move along to writing your next post berating the game.

LOL indeed. White knight forums that way >>>>>>

Kay1 · July 2017

Magıc wrote: »

Well actually you're wrong for PvP. If you wear proc sets, the gear makes the player. And the game has slowly became like that over time. Numbers win everytime, gear wins most of the time.

Skill in this game is slowly going out the window in PvP, although in PvE it isn't as bad.

They will realize it once they get nerfed, never used more than 1 proc and never will and I am proud of it