The Streamer/YouTuber Problem With ESO

ADarklore · July 2017

This reminds me of my experience in DCUO... when you'd constantly have people on the forums stating that having high 'skill points' was a requirement to be successful... and I argued the point over and over that SKILL was greater than skill points, because gaining skill points in DCUO did not require any actual skill at all... to which they always had to disagree because to them it was the high skill points that made them feel like they were better than everyone else. So when I finally joined a league after playing solo for the majority of my DCUO time, they were all shocked that I was able to not only be successful in new raids (which I had never even ran a raid before that) but I was actually beating the scores of many DPS players who had much higher skill points and better gear than I did. Without skill, even the best gear and highest CP will not guarantee success.

DivinityDay · July 2017

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Y'all have to seriously chill on making these videos telling people that this and that build is the best, and how they should strictly do this and that. And completely disregard all other builds.

I'm a min-maxer myself, and honestly it's getting ridiculous seeing these new players talking about things that they don't even understand. But, it's getting real old having new players come up to me and asking me whether or not they should only go for Netch's Touch or Necropotence for their Sorcerers. Nightblades asking asking if they can have someone help farm Selene and Viper for them, because apparently that's all that exists for Nightblades. And deadass, it's getting on my nerves.

These players are essentially getting brainwashed, and basically just keeping the cycle going of parroting what they hear this and that 1 say on a damn video. Meanwhile they have no idea how to: Animation cancel, weave properly, how their builds work, the mechanics of dungeons and trials, etc. But yet, they are so worried about having what's "meta". So I try to tell them to go and learn their fundamentals and basics first, and learn things like champion point "jump points". And they get mad. They catch an attitude, and say I'm elitist because I'm holding them back from being successful. And that's exactly the mentality that a lot of these new players are developing. That you need this and that gear to be successful in PvE and PvP, and while that may be true to a certain extent — it's not the FULL truth. Not even half of the truth.

I had a duel a few minutes ago against a DK using: Kags, Skoria, And Sun. Basically the same as my DK (except I use Seducer), and he got steamrolled. He was CP630 just like me, and we used pretty much the same damn skills. And that boy got merked. Why did he get merked? Because he was using something he had no clue about. And when I picked his brain a bit, found out that he was using what he was using because his favorite streamer/YouTuber told him it was the meta for DK's. that his build dominates everything, and how he should be able to easily crush anyone in a fight. That DK got his ass whooped by everyone in town. And essentially ended up leaving (I guess out of embarrassment). And that made me sad, because you cats that are making these videos aren't telling these players that there are better options out there for new people to certain builds. That there are other viable setups. But no. You make a video, or stream saying this is the meta. This is what works, and barely explain why it works. You don't explain the mechanics of how it all comes together. And you're essentially breeding these zombie players, who don't know squat about squat. And get embarrassed when they duel someone who uses the same build as them (to a degree).

Do you know how annoying it is to have someone come-up to me, and ask me if I'm using the same pet build that @Alcast runs? And that's no disrespect to that man, as he has helped tons of people understand things. And helped tons of people clear content. He's a brilliant person, and I hope he continues doing what he's doing. I'm not knocking him for that. But, it's just incredibly annoying to have people automatically assume that because I'm running a pet build that I got it from another person. No. I didn't. I've been using pets as far back as I can remember. I was using pets to beat Maelstrom, when the vast majority of other Sorcs were following @Deltia builds, and running Molag Kena and 2 swords. I was using Necropotence, before it even was scaled up to VR16 or CP160 as it's now known as. And it's just so damn irritating. And those who have been apart of these forums know that about me. I've ALWAYS been a PetSorc. Always. I have videos as far back as May 2016 of me using pets in Maelstrom, though I've always used pets even before then.

Old video of me using pets in Maelstrom
https://youtu.be/XwXc_wZhP20

So please. I know you want to have your previous viewers and subscribers hit that precious like button, and be apart of your "notification squad". But, at least make it clear that there are other routes to take for success. And that it's MORE IMPORTANT TO LEARN HOW A CLASS WORKS ENTIRELY, than to just chase after "high-end gear".

It's not always about the Ferrari, but the driver whipping the Ferrari. And that driver's knowledge of the car, and knowledge about driving overall

I like the way you think.

Takes-No-Prisoner · July 2017

Stopped reading at Selene and Viper--this combo is strictly for PvP, and it is literally all the StamNightblade has to keep himself alive out in the wilds. The guy looking for Selene / Viper picks it up because he wants the easy way of getting kills and I don't blame him. Cause the other method is non-proc StamNB which is hard as ball sacks to play in the current meta without gimping yourself.

It's not dumb that people seek out proc sets, its smart if they intend to keep themselves alive.

raasdal · July 2017

I don't get what your problem here is.

A bad player, listens to a Youtuber/Streamer, and is still bad. Is that the Youtuber/Streamers fault ? Maybe he also has some skilled players, that may take some or all of the build and adapt to it.

If that DK had not seen that build online and used it, he would just be using something else a guildie or even friggin zone chat told him todo.

Do you really seriously suggest that all Youtubers/Streamers should be doing disclaimers, and basically talking down their own builds ?

Yes, it is frustrating when someone calls you a Fengrush fanboy, just because you are a Stamsorc. But we all live with that. Same as getting called a Macro-cheater-exploiter on a daily basis.

ValkynSketha · July 2017

Heh, nobody is telling anybody to only have this and that, they are simply telling peoble their finding of the gear, skill and rotation(heh diversity my ***) they use that got them a high dps if dd, a high support/survivabilty if heal or tank, and seriously it is a player issue, there is other videos that explain the basics, yet they go for the end game videos, they are impatient and want things handed to them.

DivinityDay · July 2017

Sunburnt_Penguin wrote: »

I have the pessimistic belief that these PvP streamers/YouTubers release the build videos without explaining rotations or how to play the class/build because they just don't want people to get better. If people do get better then there's less clips of them 1vXing and that then leads to less views and income.

Well exactly, even though there is not much they can hide "on air" given you can see their skills, know their gear and so forth. But yeah, I'm sure they leave something off the table, I know I would.

ValkynSketha wrote: »

Heh, nobody is telling anybody to only have this and that, they are simply telling peoble their finding of the gear, skill and rotation(heh diversity my ***) they use that got them a high dps if dd, a high support/survivabilty if heal or tank, and seriously it is a player issue, there is other videos that explain the basics, yet they go for the end game videos, they are impatient and want things handed to them.

Every online game I've played that has progression has been like that and it's annoying.

DC Universe has a lot of end game content. New people complained so much that they couldn't reach the necessary combat level to play this content (which took others years) so now they have a pay to level your character off the bat.

So now you have a lot of bad players running around with end game gear on.

Biro123 · July 2017

I think generally, new players go for a 'proven' build to then learn to play with. Experienced players create a build to fit how they play.

I think the problem I have is that often the builds supplied by streamers either need advanced players to make them work, or rely on good teammates to get the best out of it, and so can be very unforgiving of mistakes.

That's not what the new player (their audience) needs, though.. But then, nobody looks for the 'family car' build when there is the 'formula 1' build next to it.

Streega · July 2017

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

I usually don't like your posts, I find them uninformed, biased, attention-seeking and full of ignorance. I love this one, though.

Yup, this is pretty much what I think, but I also give credit where it's due. Nice wall of text, @Ch4mpTW, I wish all your posts were like this one... Maybe except the "me, me, I was first" part

MakoFore · July 2017

If you want to take advantage just farm what sets are being 'sold' by the top streamers- and sell them at traders. unfortunately the top meta magicka sets at the moment are amber plasm, scathing mage, moon dancer, netches touch , etc- and BOP. if we could sell them- ooh wee- we d make alot of money- because people simply dont have time, and money to go out and theory craft every set like you do. they have lives where they can play maybe a couple hour a week- and so will just get whats meta . theres nothing wrong with that. i just wish the market and boe/bop was gone so it would help both the low volume players catch up, and the high volume players capilatlize on it with gold- plus it would make farming more bearable. trying to get one more divine/infused piece of SPC is a headfuck.

Argah · July 2017

Jump points? explain.

Brutusmax1mus · July 2017

I don't mind it, if they weren't around we would have people wearing broken sets (willows path), mismatched sets like "I'm gonna wear rattle cage and viper!", and many other things. PvP would be boring as hell with all the scrubs and the game would die bc fewer purple would enjoy it.

Learning to play a build takes time send practice you're right. But learning to animation cancel, champ jump points takes all of 5 min. Just direct them to a YouTubers video... see they're good for many reasons.

Good videos will describe the what's whys when's and where's so you don't have to. No reason to get worked up.

starkerealm · July 2017

Turelus wrote: »

Pretty much everything you said.

Some of the YouTube/Streamers (like Alcast) have made a point of saying "this is the best DPS mathematically, but it means nothing without skill or your ability".

The thing is though whatever is flavour of the month people will see and use, because there are many who believe that gear/skills make the game and forget they need player skill.

To be fair, that is the case in a lot of other MMOs. As a genre, these things started as an extension of a chatroom, with random baubles to slap around while snarking off at people. ESO is a long way from that, and your gear is not the factor that divides your ability to play effectively at top tier. Sure, it helps. But, it's not the deciding factor.

There are games where your gear is the only relevant factor, and player control is mostly just limited steering. Player skill is relevant, but the ceiling is pretty low. But, that's not the case in ESO.

Kay1 · July 2017

Nightblades asking asking if they can have someone help farm Selene and Viper for them, because apparently that's all that exists for Nightblades. And deadass, it's getting on my nerves.

Show them my video build once they tell you that

On a serious note, it's really sad yeah especially because only PvE channels like Alcast are fully informative because the meta on PvE is always the same thing and it's easy to find but in PvP it's a complete different story there's maybe 30 viable sets but no one wanna try them and all those "YouTubers" only upload cheese stuff promoting no skill playstyle, I lost, well, we many lost respect to them when they released blazing shield builds, one shot builds, triple proc builds.

They cover it under "we want Zenimax to nerf it" but that's not true, they know and we all know that those easy builds like 3 proc sets or the others above can get you very popular because any below average player can kill people with those without trying hard, so the video gets popular and people share it.

I understand what you mean, especially the part where no one teach them how to move in 1vX or what to do but some YouTuber try to upload builds that are rewarding if you put passion and skill and none of them are popular because that's not what people want, people want cheese and those guys they know how to provide it under lies.

Sevalaricgirl · July 2017

Probably because the OP wants the players to view his streams instead of anyone else's. Just another way to get attention. OP, the streamers can do whatever they want. If people are asking you, answer or not but don't come down on other streamers because you want attention. If you didn't want attention, you wouldn't have linked one of your streams. 'Nuf said.

vyndral13preub18_ESO · July 2017

Sevalaricgirl wrote: »

Probably because the OP wants the players to view his streams instead of anyone else's. Just another way to get attention. OP, the streamers can do whatever they want. If people are asking you, answer or not but don't come down on other streamers because you want attention. If you didn't want attention, you wouldn't have linked one of your streams. 'Nuf said.

I giggled at that too. Don't look at streamers or YouTube.... here is mine! Look at me go!

Ch4mpTW · July 2017

Argah wrote: »

Jump points? explain.

Certainly.

Jump points are basically a term coined for representing where a champion point needs to be at, in order for it to have its maximum effectiveness without being wasted. And in the current case, it is rounded down. Not up. @Alcast covers it quite nicely, and even has a chart to map out where they are the numerical values that they stand at.

https://alcasthq.com/eso-championpoints-jumppoints/

medusasfolly · July 2017

These streamers have a demographic. People like me.

After 8-10 hours of work, the last thing I want to do is come home and crunch more numbers. It's not that I can't do it, I just don't want to do it. So if there is someone out there that has already figured out what I need to gear my toons in, I'm all for it.

I find theory crafting is stressful from both a farming and inventory management aspect. I don't want to farm 10 different set combinations for 8 different characters to "test". I don't want to see 40 different sets in my bank and have to remember what I have to keep, why I'm keeping it, what I need to deconstruct and what I have to abandon because I'm running out of room.

I'm going to get my money out of this game by doing what I enjoy and not doing what I don't enjoy. And for that, I just want a decent, not godlike, profile so a majority of my characters can do pledges and trials. That's where I find my fun. And that's the purpose of playing ESO, no?

So call me lazy all you want, but these streamers have my gratitude.

Ch4mpTW · July 2017

Sevalaricgirl wrote: »

Probably because the OP wants the players to view his streams instead of anyone else's. Just another way to get attention. OP, the streamers can do whatever they want. If people are asking you, answer or not but don't come down on other streamers because you want attention. If you didn't want attention, you wouldn't have linked one of your streams. 'Nuf said.

@Sevalaricgirl Umm... I'm not a streamer. I've never been 1, nor have I ever promoted myself as 1. Even my YouTube is filled with nothing but misc. videos from games I play. Whether it be the bs and bugs I experience here in ESO, to me getting rekt on GTA or Disgaea by the AI. Lol. Even my Overwatch videos are just little clips of WTF moments I experience. So what are you even talking about? Lol.

Ch4mpTW · July 2017

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Sevalaricgirl wrote: »

Probably because the OP wants the players to view his streams instead of anyone else's. Just another way to get attention. OP, the streamers can do whatever they want. If people are asking you, answer or not but don't come down on other streamers because you want attention. If you didn't want attention, you wouldn't have linked one of your streams. 'Nuf said.

I giggled at that too. Don't look at streamers or YouTube.... here is mine! Look at me go!

Y'all got some serious issues. Lmao. The video that I linked was of a bug experienced in VMA from back in 2016. Did you even watch the video? It's a clip of the game glitching out, and causing me to get killed from bs. In fact, that video actually was apart of a thread I had made originally in the past about how janky VMA was.

I rate your trolling attempt a 4.1/10. Try harder.

ParaNostram · July 2017

I always tell players to play the game for a bit, figure out how they like to play develop their own style and THEN when they're making builds make the build cater to their playstyle.

Betsararie · July 2017

TheRegHD wrote: »

Patience is a huge deal in an MMO, and unfortunately many people lack it. They are looking for the most condensed information about the best builds and the fastest way to get them. If you do not take time to experience the game's mechanics and what other classes are capable of, a meta build is not going to save you.

Meta builds will always be there, but I firmly believe that they disproportionately restrain people's creativity in terms of builds. We want the best, and streamers and youtubers are rapidly supplying us with the best. But, the best build is definitely not always the most fun or even efficient one, depending on the player.

Stepping out of one's comfort zone is the best one can do to improve in any quasi-competitive game -- in that, finding a build that works for you is much more efficient than copy-pasting someone else's.

It was all fine until you said meta builds are not the most efficient.

Correction: Meta builds are indeed the most efficient in terms of their respective role. That is the whole point of them. And that is the reason that players should strive for those builds.

Smmokkee · July 2017

Deadass...? Wtf?

Ch4mpTW · July 2017

Smmokkee wrote: »

Deadass...? Wtf?

Facts my guy. Deadass.

Sausage · July 2017

Lieblingsjunge wrote: »

There is no "Streamer/Youtuber"-problem with ESO. There's a problem with the players - that just eats whatever gets fed to them without questioning or looking for alternatives. You can't blame that on the Streamers/YouTubers. It's just people accepting/eating whatever gets fed without thinking for themselves. Which is pretty dumb.

Theres massive problem and its devs dont realize how big advertisement platform it really is, they put tons and tons of money on advertisement, when they could hire real professional who promote their games. Yeah, just like Jenna Marbles, but some real pro could do so much more. Bethesda should focus on Youtube imho, all other big companies are more or less occupied by other stuff, Blizzard/Activision By Competitive Market and EA's Sport games, after GTA5's success, 2k games are kinda big deal too, maybe it or Bethesda. Someone gotta focus on Youtube, nuff said!

Crafts_Many_Boxes · July 2017

A lot of the posts here have a very holier-than-thou feel to them. Bottom line is that I'd rather have a new player who is "playing the meta" because they learned by watching Alcast or Deltia over somebody just fiddling around with it on their own spamming light and heavy attacks.

I'm still relatively new myself, but I came from a competitive raiding guild in another MMO, so I know that to some extent these resources are valuable and necessary, but to play around with them until I find something that compromises between the perfect, optimal rotation and what I'm actually able to do. However, most new players for this game are nothing like that. Many do not even have MMO backgrounds and do not understand the importance of even using abilities consistently. In typical MMO fashion, the game does a poor job of emphasizing what is important to be successful for new players. At least the meta guides can act as a starting point, with the hopes that new players will, over time, develop their own playstyle around them.

TL; DR people need to get off their high horses, better to have a new player / casual with a build they learned from youtube doing 10k than a new player with 0 information doing 2k because let's be real, casual MMO players are not the type to do their own in-depth analysis of these sorts of things. We shouldn't crucify them for that, or try to exclude them from the game.

stevepdodson_ESO888 · July 2017

what is with the "Y'all" stuff?

are we dealing with some hillbilly here?

vyndral13preub18_ESO · July 2017

medusasfolly wrote: »

These streamers have a demographic. People like me.

After 8-10 hours of work, the last thing I want to do is come home and crunch more numbers. It's not that I can't do it, I just don't want to do it. So if there is someone out there that has already figured out what I need to gear my toons in, I'm all for it.

I find theory crafting is stressful from both a farming and inventory management aspect. I don't want to farm 10 different set combinations for 8 different characters to "test". I don't want to see 40 different sets in my bank and have to remember what I have to keep, why I'm keeping it, what I need to deconstruct and what I have to abandon because I'm running out of room.

I'm going to get my money out of this game by doing what I enjoy and not doing what I don't enjoy. And for that, I just want a decent, not godlike, profile so a majority of my characters can do pledges and trials. That's where I find my fun. And that's the purpose of playing ESO, no?

So call me lazy all you want, but these streamers have my gratitude.

My feeling on it as well. While I don't find theory crafting stressful, I rather enjoy it. I know I don't play enough or am I good enough to pull out the best numbers. So while I tend to keep up with what is what so I can make informed decisions, im never going to spend the time to farm sets to try them out or actually crunch numbers myself.

I enjoy the steamers and the different options they post and Usually take that and make something that fits a little more what/how I play. For example all my characters sit around 20k health. Which isn't the best because I have to enchant extra health instead of more base stat for damage. Something most min/max builds don't do. They all want max damage.

But Ive found im slow and bad and while I have a hard time dying at 20k health I have an easy time dying at 17-18k. But I may end up using a set of armor they suggest. Or most of the skills they suggest.

Again depending on how they are built I may swap out a couple skills. But still they are giving me the basics and I am using them, simply because I'm not going to spend the hours/days trying different things to squeeze out 4% more dps.

alainjbrennanb16_ESO · July 2017

i agree about peeps saying you must do this and wear a,b,c its annoying, like the other day someone said to me, why would you buy a gold ebon necklace (i did it so i had gold set) its a waste of ap and your stupid for doing and they went of on a rant, they also said i was a ***/moron because my tank does damage at same when tuanting boss, even though i keep full tuant on the bosses, or like my healer who pumps out huge damage and while i pump out heals (30-45k heals per sec per person) all i do is ignore them, they dont know what they are talking about, ether they are just sheep following the shepard doing this and that and not understanding how to play or they just want you to play how they do, yes vids are nice as a starting point, but not the end by any means

TheRegHD · July 2017

Blanco wrote: »

TheRegHD wrote: »

Patience is a huge deal in an MMO, and unfortunately many people lack it. They are looking for the most condensed information about the best builds and the fastest way to get them. If you do not take time to experience the game's mechanics and what other classes are capable of, a meta build is not going to save you.

Meta builds will always be there, but I firmly believe that they disproportionately restrain people's creativity in terms of builds. We want the best, and streamers and youtubers are rapidly supplying us with the best. But, the best build is definitely not always the most fun or even efficient one, depending on the player.

Stepping out of one's comfort zone is the best one can do to improve in any quasi-competitive game -- in that, finding a build that works for you is much more efficient than copy-pasting someone else's.

It was all fine until you said meta builds are not the most efficient.

Correction: Meta builds are indeed the most efficient in terms of their respective role. That is the whole point of them. And that is the reason that players should strive for those builds.

''--not always the most fun or even efficient one, depending on the player'' - inciting that if the player does not have a feel for the build, they likely won't utilize it efficiently. I never claimed meta builds are not generally the most efficient, as that is precisely why they are meta builds. I simply stated that this logic does not count for everyone.

IcyDeadPeople · July 2017

I don't quite understand the complaint @Ch4mpTW

Of course there are sets that achieve certain goals with your build, but the only way for any beginner to "git gud" at PVP is spending lots of time dueling - ideally dueling someone over and over who is better.

You beat a guy with similar DK build, this is not anything bad, it's a good thing, he's learning how to play in PVP by dueling you. Hopefully you can spend more time dueling him so he can improve.

Nobody improves at PVP just from watching a video. You have to spend a lot of time practicing.