How to balance proc sets and poison in post-Morrowind ESO
PS4_ZeColmeia
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So Morrowind brought the need to sustain in order to keep doing damage. Why? because it was impossible balance classes when the whole game was max damage with no need to worry about sustain. Well as they say, "When the pendulum swings one way, it usually swings back the other way harder." By removing cost reduction and adding in CP to counter it (mind you its a single CP to counter 3 CP stars), and leaving poison with 0, I repeat ZERO, counterplay you effectively have made sustain debilitating in PvP. Additionally, proc sets require 0 resources to execute and thus circumvent the need for sustain to matter. In fact, you can keep up damage to the levels of everyone else AND deal out more damage with no commitment or need for sustain by stacking proc sets.
I suggest the following:
1) Make Snakeblood apply to poisons/pots you ingest and have applied to you. This gives poisons a counter play at the cost of skill points. This also drives up the value of enchants in PvP. Poison enchant should not be affected by Snakeblood.
2) Proc sets should have a global cooldown, let's say 6 seconds but I don't want to really say what the cooldown should be. This should not affect the cooldown of the sets themselves although I could see the sets proc rate needing some adjustments as a result. Generally, this is to reduce the value in wanting your 3 sets to all be procs as only 1 of them will work at any given time. Monster helms could be an exception to this depending on how the other following points are implemented.
3) Proc set's damage should be nerfed. In trade their damage should scale with either weapon or spell damage depending on the type of damage. They should NOT scale with resources. The idea here is bring proc sets in line with the Morrowind idea of sustain should matter. If you have high resources or sustain, then you are focusing on using your skills and procs are just flavor. If you are going high weapon/spell damage then you are burst and if they survive the burst damage then they should be able to kill you because your ability to damage is severely reduced. As a result proc sets shouldn't generally give regen or resource stats and should only give crit, damage, health, hp regen, or healing done/received.
4) No impenetrable on proc sets (again monster helms could be the exception). This makes skill burst through criticals as effective as proc burst. This point might also make for a lower global cooldown on proc sets since they are equally vunerable to burst and this creates a counterplay burst approach.
If you see the intention here is that a traditional PvE build using criticals/enchants is now equal to a proc/poison PvP build in terms of bursting. Like critical/enchant, proc/poison would now have counterplay and the mechanics of it discourages an all or nothing approach. Crit/enchant has the same issues in that base damage is an important component of it but again they have to commit to burst from the ground up by investing heavily in crit and crit damage. Proc/poison currently has the luxury of both 3 sets coinciding procs and benefiting from not having to commit the rest of the character to burst.
By being able to counter poison, and making using procs a similar ground up commitment on going heavy on weapon or spell damage, poison/proc builds now have builds that commonly occur that are less vunerable to them and they are more inline with crit builds in terms of balanced burst. I do think this needs to be heavily tested because the proc sets are so numerous now that neutering them would be as big a let down to the community as they are as the current meta.
Edited by PS4_ZeColmeia on June 21, 2017 7:44PM I suggest the following:
1) Make Snakeblood apply to poisons/pots you ingest and have applied to you. This gives poisons a counter play at the cost of skill points. This also drives up the value of enchants in PvP. Poison enchant should not be affected by Snakeblood.
2) Proc sets should have a global cooldown, let's say 6 seconds but I don't want to really say what the cooldown should be. This should not affect the cooldown of the sets themselves although I could see the sets proc rate needing some adjustments as a result. Generally, this is to reduce the value in wanting your 3 sets to all be procs as only 1 of them will work at any given time. Monster helms could be an exception to this depending on how the other following points are implemented.
3) Proc set's damage should be nerfed. In trade their damage should scale with either weapon or spell damage depending on the type of damage. They should NOT scale with resources. The idea here is bring proc sets in line with the Morrowind idea of sustain should matter. If you have high resources or sustain, then you are focusing on using your skills and procs are just flavor. If you are going high weapon/spell damage then you are burst and if they survive the burst damage then they should be able to kill you because your ability to damage is severely reduced. As a result proc sets shouldn't generally give regen or resource stats and should only give crit, damage, health, hp regen, or healing done/received.
4) No impenetrable on proc sets (again monster helms could be the exception). This makes skill burst through criticals as effective as proc burst. This point might also make for a lower global cooldown on proc sets since they are equally vunerable to burst and this creates a counterplay burst approach.
If you see the intention here is that a traditional PvE build using criticals/enchants is now equal to a proc/poison PvP build in terms of bursting. Like critical/enchant, proc/poison would now have counterplay and the mechanics of it discourages an all or nothing approach. Crit/enchant has the same issues in that base damage is an important component of it but again they have to commit to burst from the ground up by investing heavily in crit and crit damage. Proc/poison currently has the luxury of both 3 sets coinciding procs and benefiting from not having to commit the rest of the character to burst.
By being able to counter poison, and making using procs a similar ground up commitment on going heavy on weapon or spell damage, poison/proc builds now have builds that commonly occur that are less vunerable to them and they are more inline with crit builds in terms of balanced burst. I do think this needs to be heavily tested because the proc sets are so numerous now that neutering them would be as big a let down to the community as they are as the current meta.
PSN: ***___Chan (3 _s)
Hybrid, All-Role NB
Hybrid, All-Role NB
How to balance proc sets and poison in post-Morrowind ESO 10 votes
I like the idea
40%
4 votes
I like the concept but...
10%
1 vote
I don't like ideas or the concepts, procs are fine
50%
5 votes
0
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Wreuntzylla✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Not sure the snakeblood idea is a good idea. Alchemy is easy to level and skillpoints not so hard to get. Everyone would cancel out poison with that change.
However, when I first read what you wrote I thought you were saying that if you have snakeblood and drink a pot that applies poison to you, that poison can't be cancelled by a proc poison. In other words, poison immunity at the cost of using a less desirable potion. I think that would be a fair tradeoff.0 -
PS4_ZeColmeia✭✭✭✭✭I like the ideaWreuntzylla wrote: »Not sure the snakeblood idea is a good idea. Alchemy is easy to level and skillpoints not so hard to get. Everyone would cancel out poison with that change.
However, when I first read what you wrote I thought you were saying that if you have snakeblood and drink a pot that applies poison to you, that poison can't be cancelled by a proc poison. In other words, poison immunity at the cost of using a less desirable potion. I think that would be a fair tradeoff.
I would actually think a slight tweak to assassin's guile and/or snakeblood %ages would work. I personally think poisons are waaaaaay too powerful in comparison to the affect of enchants in PvP. I think a counterplay in skill points with a counter-counter via set is a fair compromise. Assuming the reductions are additive if you had snakeblood reduce it to 20% effectiveness and you added a 25% increase in effectiveness to assassin's guile's 5 trait I think you easily have a balance.
Don't forget it only takes 1 CP star investment to counter 3 CP stars (assuming you're investing in all 3) and that weaving became much more important and that your light attacks damage more and your heavies are faster. As such, I feel like the overall pressure on sustain is easier to achieve than is the counter play. This is why I feel poison is too powerful at the moment and therefore the counter SHOULD be fairly easy to achieve with 3 skill points. That said, by dropping a proc set for the trade of improving poisons to counter the counter, I think the investment is much more balanced.Edited by PS4_ZeColmeia on June 21, 2017 8:00PMPSN: ***___Chan (3 _s)
Hybrid, All-Role NB0 -
kuro-dono✭✭✭✭problem with poisons right now is only because some pros tears are flowing in as they cant win every single fight with their elite hackzor skillz in battleground so they blame poisons. before battlegrounds poisons seemed to be very miniscule issue as in zerg vs zerg poisons were waste of effort, and when ganking someone poisons again are semi useless as gank power with all the buffs and such so op that you "one shot" someone.
with small scale e peen stroking it was easy to disengage from combat if you were sorc or nightblade when fighting someone with poisons, but at battleground...? no, you hide in some corner and wait for the round to be over so you can get out.
and! when someone who knows what they doing goes to battleground solo, ends up meeting prepare, they cry as they lost to stronk folks who knew what they were doing too.
i assume alot when i say this> but lots of folks are scared of making premades in case they meet another premade group and lose to them, then they dont have zerg to blame for their deaths.0 -
PS4_ZeColmeia✭✭✭✭✭I like the ideaproblem with poisons right now is only because some pros tears are flowing in as they cant win every single fight with their elite hackzor skillz in battleground so they blame poisons. before battlegrounds poisons seemed to be very miniscule issue as in zerg vs zerg poisons were waste of effort, and when ganking someone poisons again are semi useless as gank power with all the buffs and such so op that you "one shot" someone.
with small scale e peen stroking it was easy to disengage from combat if you were sorc or nightblade when fighting someone with poisons, but at battleground...? no, you hide in some corner and wait for the round to be over so you can get out.
and! when someone who knows what they doing goes to battleground solo, ends up meeting prepare, they cry as they lost to stronk folks who knew what they were doing too.
i assume alot when i say this> but lots of folks are scared of making premades in case they meet another premade group and lose to them, then they dont have zerg to blame for their deaths.
premades should beat a solo queue any day of the week. If you want to beat a premade, play the MMO and make some friends and go premade, well coordinated, over voice chat. If you don't want to do that then you need accept the losses. On this I 100% agree with you.
That said, procs are 99% of my damage recap at death and TBH, other than a few sets which have procs you can see and can avoid, there is 0 counter play. The whole movement in Morrowind was towards counterplay. That is where my suggestion comes from.
A slight tweak to my proposal is that if sets either have an avoidable proc or have a proxy det/eye of the storm flag of incoming damage then they should have no cooldown. This gives a counterplay in itself. The points on 3 & 4 should apply though.PSN: ***___Chan (3 _s)
Hybrid, All-Role NB0 -
Crafts_Many_Boxes✭✭✭✭✭I agree that proc sets are still wildly out of scope for pvp (I've barely pvp'd myself but the concept seems rather obvious even from an outside perspective), however these changes would neuter what little functionality proc sets have left in PvE.
As someone who's still getting used to the idea of "weaving" attacks (forgive me, but i'm originally from MMOs where basic attacks were autoattacks and everything functioned on an absolute GCD), running 2-3 proc sets is a nice way to do decent dps without breaking my fingers in the process. I don't have a monster set proc yet, but once I do I imagine that fully gold / divines I'll be able to hit ~20k unbuffed pretty easily as a stam DK.
What you have to understand about proc sets is that, from a PvE perspective, we're getting those procs in PLACE of traditional 5 piece bonuses. The fact that they still aren't BiS is pretty telling, so if you nerf their damage potential, you're making them even worse for PvE than they already are. They're a good alternative for players like me who are still learning the ropes because we get more use out of "free damage" than the rest of our abilities being buffed, because that damage relies on weaving and frame perfect rotations, stuff we're pretty hopeless at.
Putting a global cooldown on procs from sets or causing them to scale with weapon damage but overall be lower would further gimp those of us trying to use proc sets to get by. A much better proposal that I've seen get tossed around is to just sharply decrease the damage for PvP only.0 -
PS4_ZeColmeia✭✭✭✭✭I like the ideaCrafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »I agree that proc sets are still wildly out of scope for pvp (I've barely pvp'd myself but the concept seems rather obvious even from an outside perspective), however these changes would neuter what little functionality proc sets have left in PvE.
As someone who's still getting used to the idea of "weaving" attacks (forgive me, but i'm originally from MMOs where basic attacks were autoattacks and everything functioned on an absolute GCD), running 2-3 proc sets is a nice way to do decent dps without breaking my fingers in the process. I don't have a monster set proc yet, but once I do I imagine that fully gold / divines I'll be able to hit ~20k unbuffed pretty easily as a stam DK.
What you have to understand about proc sets is that, from a PvE perspective, we're getting those procs in PLACE of traditional 5 piece bonuses. The fact that they still aren't BiS is pretty telling, so if you nerf their damage potential, you're making them even worse for PvE than they already are. They're a good alternative for players like me who are still learning the ropes because we get more use out of "free damage" than the rest of our abilities being buffed, because that damage relies on weaving and frame perfect rotations, stuff we're pretty hopeless at.
Putting a global cooldown on procs from sets or causing them to scale with weapon damage but overall be lower would further gimp those of us trying to use proc sets to get by. A much better proposal that I've seen get tossed around is to just sharply decrease the damage for PvP only.
My intention is to allow proc sets to actually exceed their current values, but the cost is that you can't sustain your other skills.
I'm gonna sound heartless for a sec but I don't believe in making sets compensate for inability to use mechanics. I use my vita and PS4 controller and it's hard switching between the 2 and weaving. I also go between melee and staff which feels different from weaving between the 2.
I'm not going to look for the proc sets to narrow that gap knowing that those who don't have that issue actually get even more DPS. Dps should be skilled, this is coming from someone that is working on getting better at it as well.PSN: ***___Chan (3 _s)
Hybrid, All-Role NB0 -
Crafts_Many_Boxes✭✭✭✭✭PS4_ZeColmeia wrote: »Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »I agree that proc sets are still wildly out of scope for pvp (I've barely pvp'd myself but the concept seems rather obvious even from an outside perspective), however these changes would neuter what little functionality proc sets have left in PvE.
As someone who's still getting used to the idea of "weaving" attacks (forgive me, but i'm originally from MMOs where basic attacks were autoattacks and everything functioned on an absolute GCD), running 2-3 proc sets is a nice way to do decent dps without breaking my fingers in the process. I don't have a monster set proc yet, but once I do I imagine that fully gold / divines I'll be able to hit ~20k unbuffed pretty easily as a stam DK.
What you have to understand about proc sets is that, from a PvE perspective, we're getting those procs in PLACE of traditional 5 piece bonuses. The fact that they still aren't BiS is pretty telling, so if you nerf their damage potential, you're making them even worse for PvE than they already are. They're a good alternative for players like me who are still learning the ropes because we get more use out of "free damage" than the rest of our abilities being buffed, because that damage relies on weaving and frame perfect rotations, stuff we're pretty hopeless at.
Putting a global cooldown on procs from sets or causing them to scale with weapon damage but overall be lower would further gimp those of us trying to use proc sets to get by. A much better proposal that I've seen get tossed around is to just sharply decrease the damage for PvP only.
My intention is to allow proc sets to actually exceed their current values, but the cost is that you can't sustain your other skills.
I'm gonna sound heartless for a sec but I don't believe in making sets compensate for inability to use mechanics. I use my vita and PS4 controller and it's hard switching between the 2 and weaving. I also go between melee and staff which feels different from weaving between the 2.
I'm not going to look for the proc sets to narrow that gap knowing that those who don't have that issue actually get even more DPS. Dps should be skilled, this is coming from someone that is working on getting better at it as well.
How exactly would that work? Would procs consume resources or something? Because that would be disastrous lol.
Also, Please re-read what I wrote. The "pros" in PvE don't use proc sets at all because traditional 5pc set bonuses buff their abilities enough so that, when played in a min-max way, you wind up doing significantly more dps.
So, by gimping proc sets, you'd just be gimping the PvErs who are struggling to keep up as it is. Why do you think these sets existed in the first place? To give PvErs options, I doubt PvP was even a consideration of the original designers. That's why you need to leave them alone for PvE.
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PS4_ZeColmeia✭✭✭✭✭I like the ideaCrafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »PS4_ZeColmeia wrote: »Crafts_Many_Boxes wrote: »I agree that proc sets are still wildly out of scope for pvp (I've barely pvp'd myself but the concept seems rather obvious even from an outside perspective), however these changes would neuter what little functionality proc sets have left in PvE.
As someone who's still getting used to the idea of "weaving" attacks (forgive me, but i'm originally from MMOs where basic attacks were autoattacks and everything functioned on an absolute GCD), running 2-3 proc sets is a nice way to do decent dps without breaking my fingers in the process. I don't have a monster set proc yet, but once I do I imagine that fully gold / divines I'll be able to hit ~20k unbuffed pretty easily as a stam DK.
What you have to understand about proc sets is that, from a PvE perspective, we're getting those procs in PLACE of traditional 5 piece bonuses. The fact that they still aren't BiS is pretty telling, so if you nerf their damage potential, you're making them even worse for PvE than they already are. They're a good alternative for players like me who are still learning the ropes because we get more use out of "free damage" than the rest of our abilities being buffed, because that damage relies on weaving and frame perfect rotations, stuff we're pretty hopeless at.
Putting a global cooldown on procs from sets or causing them to scale with weapon damage but overall be lower would further gimp those of us trying to use proc sets to get by. A much better proposal that I've seen get tossed around is to just sharply decrease the damage for PvP only.
My intention is to allow proc sets to actually exceed their current values, but the cost is that you can't sustain your other skills.
I'm gonna sound heartless for a sec but I don't believe in making sets compensate for inability to use mechanics. I use my vita and PS4 controller and it's hard switching between the 2 and weaving. I also go between melee and staff which feels different from weaving between the 2.
I'm not going to look for the proc sets to narrow that gap knowing that those who don't have that issue actually get even more DPS. Dps should be skilled, this is coming from someone that is working on getting better at it as well.
How exactly would that work? Would procs consume resources or something? Because that would be disastrous lol.
Also, Please re-read what I wrote. The "pros" in PvE don't use proc sets at all because traditional 5pc set bonuses buff their abilities enough so that, when played in a min-max way, you wind up doing significantly more dps.
So, by gimping proc sets, you'd just be gimping the PvErs who are struggling to keep up as it is. Why do you think these sets existed in the first place? To give PvErs options, I doubt PvP was even a consideration of the original designers. That's why you need to leave them alone for PvE.
I read your post. My point was to say crutches don't help you get better. They exist, they're fun and if you a pro they're not bis. I get it.
My point is that in both PvE and PvP they drive up dps with no skill and no sacrifice. By their nature, there is no way to make procs take skill. You can make people sacrifice to have burst, which is what I believe they should be niche for.
PvE proc builds should be great in trials with great sustain buffs or a sustain bot dps dungeon group.
The issue you're highlighting is proving my point. You don't have to sacrifice to proc and therefore any change that balances to other setups is a nerf. No it's balance. I don't want procs to go away, I want you to have to choose if it's worth it based on how you play and what you're doing. The fact you're using it to supplement your lack of skill, not an insult we're both not masters of weaving, further shows how it can be abused by those who have greater skill.
Tl;dr don't look at yourself as the only reason for things existing, look at it from the larger game and you'll understand why making ALL builds niche with good counterplay actually makes everyone balanced in PvE and PvPPSN: ***___Chan (3 _s)
Hybrid, All-Role NB0