Do you think ZOS will admit they made a mistake?

Bobby_V_Rockit · June 2017

it wasnt a mistake, they intended to do it. So I'ma guess no, no they will not. Keep up the goods ZOS! Still lovin it here.

Ozstryker · June 2017

andreasranasen wrote: »

I cannot with the suckers in this thread defending the developers. SHEEP!

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

jircris11 wrote: »

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

When they killed sustain? So far I haven't seen one one person who went " Oh the nerf to sustain made the game so much more balanced and more more fun". PVE specially was completely devastated by the sustain nerf and became incredibly annoying and boring.

What do you think, will they admit the made a mistake and revert the sustain changes or are they so stubborn to admit they made a mistake and try to adjust the game over the sustain nerfs and fail miserably?

there is nothing wrong wit the changes they made. Most effected are people who where using FOTM builds that made them never have to worry about management. Now that its gone people have to actually manage their pools and have no clue how to do it properly. Personally I am having zero issue with it, it simply took some getting use to.

@jircris11

There are multiple problems with the changes they made.

- It deliberately slowed the game down, which people hate.

- People have to give up damage which a large portion of bossfights and mechanics are dependant on

- In addition this was directly after an update that made enemies beefier.

Just because you are in love with the changes does not mean everyone is. I've seen enough forum threads and enough despaired people in game leaving to know it's not exactly a positive ratio.

The breakneck speeds that people still insist on running dungeons at suggest the opposite of your assertion, bosses are being downed at the same pace of not quicker than before, beefier or not!
I pug a lot, I see this regularly!.. if sustain is so bad, why are folk not popping orbs or shards, how are dds sprinting ahead so often if "sustain is sooo broken? The state of dungeons and overland has hardly changed at all!!

In fact I like that healing is more positional, and I can add a little more dps, and that tanking is less block everything and react more efficiently, makes the game more, ya no... fun!

So just because you don't like the changes, does not mean that no one does, I've seen enough threads shooting down despairing people and a massive increase of new players to know it's not exactly a negative ratio!

alainjbrennanb16_ESO · June 2017

I understand why they did it, to nerf damage and to make it take longer to do things, it does make sense, but saying that, they never thought it through, if in a trail and if ur unlucky to get the cc's as a magic user who normal have around 9k- 10k stamina, or in pvp since they did this its a nightmmare, they say play how you want, but if you get 2 cc's in a row yoou done the third cc means no stamina left, which means you have to take food or pots with resoruce regain which is not play as you want.

but saying all that the game is bugged to hell, lets take pvp which i luv but its become a right pain lately, the 7 second immunity does not always work so have the time you find you self even when using immov pots etc on the ground, this update they have really messed things up and dont get me started with queuing for battlegrounds, its a nightmare

ArterionAU · June 2017

I don't really like the sustain changes tbh, It's made combat more boring and less fast paced then it used to be for me which makes combat less fun, It has balanced the game and classes more though I think.

agegarton · June 2017

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

When they killed sustain? So far I haven't seen one one person who went " Oh the nerf to sustain made the game so much more balanced and more more fun". PVE specially was completely devastated by the sustain nerf and became incredibly annoying and boring.

What do you think, will they admit the made a mistake and revert the sustain changes or are they so stubborn to admit they made a mistake and try to adjust the game over the sustain nerfs and fail miserably?

I don't need them to issue an apology - they will try new things, and not all will work. That said, I would like them to soften up on their nerf. I think it's clear now that the sustain nerf went further that it needed to. We can all adapt and carry on, but having done that, I'm missing some of the fun. And for the record, I agree that sustain had gotten out of control - some builds were almost inexhaustible pools of resource. I'd like to see some sort of half-way house.

Doctordarkspawn · June 2017

jircris11 wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

jircris11 wrote: »

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

When they killed sustain? So far I haven't seen one one person who went " Oh the nerf to sustain made the game so much more balanced and more more fun". PVE specially was completely devastated by the sustain nerf and became incredibly annoying and boring.

What do you think, will they admit the made a mistake and revert the sustain changes or are they so stubborn to admit they made a mistake and try to adjust the game over the sustain nerfs and fail miserably?

there is nothing wrong wit the changes they made. Most effected are people who where using FOTM builds that made them never have to worry about management. Now that its gone people have to actually manage their pools and have no clue how to do it properly. Personally I am having zero issue with it, it simply took some getting use to.

@jircris11

There are multiple problems with the changes they made.

- It deliberately slowed the game down, which people hate.

- People have to give up damage which a large portion of bossfights and mechanics are dependant on

- In addition this was directly after an update that made enemies beefier.

Just because you are in love with the changes does not mean everyone is. I've seen enough forum threads and enough despaired people in game leaving to know it's not exactly a positive ratio.

People come and go like change in a bank. The ones who left got mad because they could not solo all things pve. Now they need to work together and you know, socialize. Something most mmo players do not do anymore. You can argue until you are blue in the face about how it made it slow or you lack dps. In the end they changed the game to make it "tougher" and make it so people can't solo everything.

This is a strawman. I know plenty who simply dislike the new 'regen' phase and think it's too slow. I've heard the comparisons to WoW and heard people say 'if I wanted that, I would have played that'. Some people just want a faster paced MMO.

And eitherway, 'tougher' isn't necessarily better.

Doctordarkspawn · June 2017

Ozstryker wrote: »

andreasranasen wrote: »

I cannot with the suckers in this thread defending the developers. SHEEP!

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

jircris11 wrote: »

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

When they killed sustain? So far I haven't seen one one person who went " Oh the nerf to sustain made the game so much more balanced and more more fun". PVE specially was completely devastated by the sustain nerf and became incredibly annoying and boring.

What do you think, will they admit the made a mistake and revert the sustain changes or are they so stubborn to admit they made a mistake and try to adjust the game over the sustain nerfs and fail miserably?

there is nothing wrong wit the changes they made. Most effected are people who where using FOTM builds that made them never have to worry about management. Now that its gone people have to actually manage their pools and have no clue how to do it properly. Personally I am having zero issue with it, it simply took some getting use to.

@jircris11

There are multiple problems with the changes they made.

- It deliberately slowed the game down, which people hate.

- People have to give up damage which a large portion of bossfights and mechanics are dependant on

- In addition this was directly after an update that made enemies beefier.

Just because you are in love with the changes does not mean everyone is. I've seen enough forum threads and enough despaired people in game leaving to know it's not exactly a positive ratio.

The breakneck speeds that people still insist on running dungeons at suggest the opposite of your assertion, bosses are being downed at the same pace of not quicker than before, beefier or not!
I pug a lot, I see this regularly!.. if sustain is so bad, why are folk not popping orbs or shards, how are dds sprinting ahead so often if "sustain is sooo broken? The state of dungeons and overland has hardly changed at all!!

In fact I like that healing is more positional, and I can add a little more dps, and that tanking is less block everything and react more efficiently, makes the game more, ya no... fun!

So just because you don't like the changes, does not mean that no one does, I've seen enough threads shooting down despairing people and a massive increase of new players to know it's not exactly a negative ratio!

Okay.

This means what to my argument? People run how they want to run, so?

People will allways find ways to exploit a system, any system. Just because people have 'adapted' to appease the cult of fanboys that will mercilessly crush any dissent in the community, does not mean the system was worth adapting to, or better for the changes.

You like it. Other people like it. I see see more people saying it's a bad change, and people of some authority in the realms of statistics, (See: Guild leads monitoring their member participation, ect) saying their seeing a sharp drop.

If the churn is happy, fine. But Churn is Churn. Game cant survive on churn alone, and alienating your dedicated playerbase does nothing but hurt the game.

PS: Oh how you love to mention the people geting shot down. Wrongthink must be punished most brutally, eh?

Merlin13KAGL · June 2017

ZoS doesn't make mistakes.

They only implement new features.

Things are always working as intended. (Just not how we intended.)

Bigevilpeter · June 2017

That's the problem, ZOS can't make the game better if you keep praising everything they do, which apparently a lot of fanboys are doing. Yes you can adapt to changes but does it mean its good?

Fusiondk · June 2017

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Ozstryker wrote: »

andreasranasen wrote: »

I cannot with the suckers in this thread defending the developers. SHEEP!

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

jircris11 wrote: »

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

When they killed sustain? So far I haven't seen one one person who went " Oh the nerf to sustain made the game so much more balanced and more more fun". PVE specially was completely devastated by the sustain nerf and became incredibly annoying and boring.

What do you think, will they admit the made a mistake and revert the sustain changes or are they so stubborn to admit they made a mistake and try to adjust the game over the sustain nerfs and fail miserably?

there is nothing wrong wit the changes they made. Most effected are people who where using FOTM builds that made them never have to worry about management. Now that its gone people have to actually manage their pools and have no clue how to do it properly. Personally I am having zero issue with it, it simply took some getting use to.

@jircris11

There are multiple problems with the changes they made.

- It deliberately slowed the game down, which people hate.

- People have to give up damage which a large portion of bossfights and mechanics are dependant on

- In addition this was directly after an update that made enemies beefier.

Just because you are in love with the changes does not mean everyone is. I've seen enough forum threads and enough despaired people in game leaving to know it's not exactly a positive ratio.

The breakneck speeds that people still insist on running dungeons at suggest the opposite of your assertion, bosses are being downed at the same pace of not quicker than before, beefier or not!
I pug a lot, I see this regularly!.. if sustain is so bad, why are folk not popping orbs or shards, how are dds sprinting ahead so often if "sustain is sooo broken? The state of dungeons and overland has hardly changed at all!!

In fact I like that healing is more positional, and I can add a little more dps, and that tanking is less block everything and react more efficiently, makes the game more, ya no... fun!

So just because you don't like the changes, does not mean that no one does, I've seen enough threads shooting down despairing people and a massive increase of new players to know it's not exactly a negative ratio!

Okay.

This means what to my argument? People run how they want to run, so?

People will allways find ways to exploit a system, any system. Just because people have 'adapted' to appease the cult of fanboys that will mercilessly crush any dissent in the community, does not mean the system was worth adapting to, or better for the changes.

You like it. Other people like it. I see see more people saying it's a bad change, and people of some authority in the realms of statistics, (See: Guild leads monitoring their member participation, ect) saying their seeing a sharp drop.

If the churn is happy, fine. But Churn is Churn. Game cant survive on churn alone, and alienating your dedicated playerbase does nothing but hurt the game.

PS: Oh how you love to mention the people geting shot down. Wrongthink must be punished most brutally, eh?

What he means to your argument is this: When almost all veteran trials have two circumstances that ZOS doesn't want to exist. First and foremost they have tune trials around a certain percentage expectation or what is the point (loot? no. Story? no.). So when the top clears are just brute forcing most encounters with exceptional dps and sustain it becomes a problem when less than 1% is achieving it. While I would agree if someone countered that the player base just needs to come up and we shouldn't have to bring trials down, let's be honest: 99.5% of the dungeons I decide to pug the average DPS 400 CP+ is sustaining is probably around 8 to 9k. I passively do that as a healer. Then if you mention anything your an elitist who is trying to tell them how to play their game. Players simply don't want to come up to the bars top trial guilds set. Or anywhere near them for that matter.

Because my two points kind of melded together there, they were A) Zos doesn't want brute force to trump content mechanics every time through sustain whether incredible dps ceiling /healing spam.

Zos is trying to tune in the max potential and the average DPS. Balance is a thing unfortunately. What's funny is the average player is shouting at this when it's the average player that is disgruntled by it.

Whether it was too much, too little, or just right for a nerf I see the angle, but it's hard to make such a drastic change so late in the game. So I empathize.

cpuScientist · June 2017

Meh I think it made PVE a little slower sure with the heavies needed in the rotations (but I mean it was rotations that's inherently a little boring) VMA got a touch harder but with slight adjustments I hardly notice it. Still getting 500k+ under an hour runs on the stamBlade. And it's getting higher and higher.

It has really helped PvP alot though. Most fights are quicker, being a super tank is harder, medium and light are plenty more viable while heavy is still amazing it's not the undisputed king anymore.

Overall I thought it was horrid and still think it's not in the right direction in some regards, but I was wrong about it's impact and ZOS was good on biting the bullet to improve gameplay even risking Morrowind bad press to improve their game in a way they felt it needed to go. That's a sign of good devs IMO. So GG @Wrobel

Merlin13KAGL · June 2017

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

That's the problem, ZOS can't make the game better if you keep praising everything they do, which apparently a lot of fanboys are doing. Yes you can adapt to changes but does it mean its good?

@Bigevilpeter I assume this was directed at someone other than me.

Either way, my point being twofold:

No, they're not going to say they made a mistake, they'll try to change it 5 more different ways and dig the hole even deeper. (Pretty sure in the ZoS rulebook, it explicitly states "Rollback is not an option.")
They're not interested in making the game how fanboi's want, or l33t's, or casuals, or anyone, for that matter. They're making the game to their design and spec, generally disregarding most of the feedback they receive and plowing forward regardless.

Think "using gasoline to put out a fire." In past, they generally just tried more gasoline.

I'm under the premise that it matters not if we praise or condemn. They're going to do what they do, either way.

Uviryth · June 2017

Whats "sustain"?

Insandros · June 2017

why would they admit something made good while lots of players found a way to deal with it? If you're having sustain issues on all your toon, then the problem is basicly not ZoS, but a 18 inches code problem. I'm totaly confortable on all my toons, a bit less dmg than the patch but it ain't due to sustian but more the fact that magika pool seems not to give as much spell power as before.

EDIT: to be honest, i think the only mistake they made was CP system, it gave birth to people like easy content, never been that easy to lvl a toon with 630 CP to allocate on my lvl 3 toons with all purple training gears with purple glyphs, and all the dmg it provides and back then the infinite sustain it provided, now we don't get infinite, but when adjsuting yourself, about a 85% infinite sustain

Magıc · June 2017

This is only a mistake for PVE. PVP it's fine. However in PVE it isn't even as bad as people make it out to be lol.

They should have settled with the CP changes. That was needed. They should have left alone the class specific sustain and the medium/light armour sustain. Heavy armour sustain + block cost needed to be nerfed anyway which was good.

With just the CP/Heavy armour/block cost changes, they should have then re evaluated for the next patch or something and then made more changes if needed. Instead they went all in on 1 patch which caused the uproar.

Belidos · June 2017

To be honest, i really don't care either way, it really hasn't changed anything for me at all, seems i was set up to sustain anyway because the changes don't seem to have changed anything about the way i play for me.

Ozstryker · June 2017

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Ozstryker wrote: »

andreasranasen wrote: »

I cannot with the suckers in this thread defending the developers. SHEEP!

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

jircris11 wrote: »

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

When they killed sustain? So far I haven't seen one one person who went " Oh the nerf to sustain made the game so much more balanced and more more fun". PVE specially was completely devastated by the sustain nerf and became incredibly annoying and boring.

What do you think, will they admit the made a mistake and revert the sustain changes or are they so stubborn to admit they made a mistake and try to adjust the game over the sustain nerfs and fail miserably?

there is nothing wrong wit the changes they made. Most effected are people who where using FOTM builds that made them never have to worry about management. Now that its gone people have to actually manage their pools and have no clue how to do it properly. Personally I am having zero issue with it, it simply took some getting use to.

@jircris11

There are multiple problems with the changes they made.

- It deliberately slowed the game down, which people hate.

- People have to give up damage which a large portion of bossfights and mechanics are dependant on

- In addition this was directly after an update that made enemies beefier.

Just because you are in love with the changes does not mean everyone is. I've seen enough forum threads and enough despaired people in game leaving to know it's not exactly a positive ratio.

The breakneck speeds that people still insist on running dungeons at suggest the opposite of your assertion, bosses are being downed at the same pace of not quicker than before, beefier or not!
I pug a lot, I see this regularly!.. if sustain is so bad, why are folk not popping orbs or shards, how are dds sprinting ahead so often if "sustain is sooo broken? The state of dungeons and overland has hardly changed at all!!

In fact I like that healing is more positional, and I can add a little more dps, and that tanking is less block everything and react more efficiently, makes the game more, ya no... fun!

So just because you don't like the changes, does not mean that no one does, I've seen enough threads shooting down despairing people and a massive increase of new players to know it's not exactly a negative ratio!

Okay.

This means what to my argument? People run how they want to run, so?

People will allways find ways to exploit a system, any system. Just because people have 'adapted' to appease the cult of fanboys that will mercilessly crush any dissent in the community, does not mean the system was worth adapting to, or better for the changes.

You like it. Other people like it. I see see more people saying it's a bad change, and people of some authority in the realms of statistics, (See: Guild leads monitoring their member participation, ect) saying their seeing a sharp drop.

Exactly, people will run how they want to run.. Right or wrong that's precisely how forward thinking gamers approach nerfs or changes.. I'm not sure I understand your view that anyone who has adapted is somehow exploiting the system?! Or just some fanboy trying to silence a section of the community, or even your assertion that the changes are pointless and not worth adapting to??

I comment on what I see in-game, e.g I'm a part of a rather dedicated guild, and it's the general opinion that the game is moving along positively.. we are completing ALL content (without having to use high dps to defeat mechanics) theres very little drop off in members... in fact zero drop off in our core groups! (Places are harder to get than ever)!!
Now, I'm not saying the game is perfect, there are still issues to be addressed, the Vet trial guys are still crunching them numbers, albeit positively, there is always room for improvement!

And no, "wrong-think" (or any valid opinion) should never be put down... debated yes.. it's okay for your opinion to be different to mine... just don't get pisssy about it !

Peace

Edit: to remain on point.. wether or not ZoS has made mistakes is subjective, and even if they clearly had, I don't believe they would admit them...

NordJitsu · June 2017

ArterionAU wrote: »

I don't really like the sustain changes tbh, It's made combat more boring and less fast paced then it used to be for me which makes combat less fun, It has balanced the game and classes more though I think.

No it made combat more fun because you have to think instead of just mashing buttons.

Ihatenightblades · June 2017

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

When they killed sustain? So far I haven't seen one one person who went " Oh the nerf to sustain made the game so much more balanced and more more fun". PVE specially was completely devastated by the sustain nerf and became incredibly annoying and boring.

What do you think, will they admit the made a mistake and revert the sustain changes or are they so stubborn to admit they made a mistake and try to adjust the game over the sustain nerfs and fail miserably?

Dude they arent lookin back at all nobody thought the game was fun when you can fight another group for 20 mins and everybody still has full resources.

I love the resource nerf if you want to sustain sacrifice some damage. If you want super high damage dont expect to never run out of resources.

vamp_emily · June 2017

I don't like the resource nerf, because I enjoy spamming my skills. Now I have to spam, take a break, and then spam. Sometimes I have to let people die because I have no mag on my healer. I use to be able to cloak everywhere, now I have to stop, cloak, stop, cloak, stop, cloak. My DK has no resources, it is so not fun just using heavy attacks because I have no stam to do anything.

Tip of the day:
Do not click on my name and view my previous posts, it is full of drama and a waste of your time.

Azyle1 · June 2017

Don't understand...

Sustain issues are not a problem. As a matter of fact, my DPS went up as a Stamblade since the Morrowind Patch.

I think it just made things not quite as OP. No big deal.

QuebraRegra · June 2017

Tasear wrote: »

Sustain wasn't a mistake. It took a load off the server l. Also it's honestly not that bad.

how exactly did sustain changes "take a load off the server"? By making players quit?

Seriously, what correlation?

MisterBigglesworth · June 2017

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

I know plenty who simply dislike the new 'regen' phase and think it's too slow. I've heard the comparisons to WoW and heard people say 'if I wanted that, I would have played that'. Some people just want a faster paced MMO.

And eitherway, 'tougher' isn't necessarily better.

Prior to the the sustain nerf, which class/build benefitted from playing at a slower pace?

Curson · June 2017

The main reason for this change was the people in PvP situations with infinite resources who could 1vX. These days you have to be very clever with your resources or you will get into trouble. I love it.

Ep1kMalware · June 2017

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

When they killed sustain? So far I haven't seen one one person who went " Oh the nerf to sustain made the game so much more balanced and more more fun". PVE specially was completely devastated by the sustain nerf and became incredibly annoying and boring.

What do you think, will they admit the made a mistake and revert the sustain changes or are they so stubborn to admit they made a mistake and try to adjust the game over the sustain nerfs and fail miserably?

My dps went up, and I *** hate the changes. You'd think I'd be happy about it, but no, not really. All it did was make one of my favorite aspects of the game become tedious and cumbersome. =.=

Ep1kMalware · June 2017

Iselin wrote: »

Why in the world would anyone love or even like one of the iconic ways that games use to balance and prevent constant spamming of the best ability you can use?

Limited resources, cool-downs, or even (back in the day) compulsory rest and camp between fights are not there to be liked. They're there to force you to make choices instead of spamming the AOE Storm of I Win Awesomeness over and over again.

Someone who thinks that those parts of balancing should be liked, especially these days when down-time between fights is so tiny compared to 10 or 20 years ago must be new to gaming.

Like what 'best' ability. spam it all you *** want, you're not going to kill anything.

Ep1kMalware · June 2017

Drummerx04 wrote: »

DEATHquidox wrote: »

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

When they killed sustain? So far I haven't seen one one person who went " Oh the nerf to sustain made the game so much more balanced and more more fun". PVE specially was completely devastated by the sustain nerf and became incredibly annoying and boring.

What do you think, will they admit the made a mistake and revert the sustain changes or are they so stubborn to admit they made a mistake and try to adjust the game over the sustain nerfs and fail miserably?

The changes were made so that everyone running 3 full damage sets couldn't anymore it's simply to fix people running the damage sets. If you want to cry even further about it, it's a game I hated the changes that made gear a pain in the @$$ to get but I didn't come to the forums to complain. If you have a legitimate statement to show off then fine but you have to actually build towards rescource management or you get creamed in this game end of story. The only problem with this game rn is bgs have no ranking system the rng needs to be changed up and ques need to be fixed and they need to do something with proc sets that's about it besides releasing content that works when you pay 40$ to buy it

The only problem with that argument is that basically no one in the end game pve community stopped running all damage sets and all spell/weapon damage glyphs. Literally you just throw in a couple more heavy attacks than before Morrowind and you are basically good to go. Maybe a couple are using witch mothers's brew.

It was nearly impossible to sustain well last patch without good healer support. This patch, healer support almost doesn't matter since all of their group sustain tools took enormous nerfs. The resource returns from healer orbs for instance is gone in 1-3 skill casts... aka 1-3 seconds.

Not even heavy attacks for some builds. Slot 1 recovery glyph, 2 for HoF, tweak your food, attributes. Frontloaded cp lets you run precise weapons in trials for more dps and you're back to doing whatever it is you were doing.

They didn't change much. They just made it less engaging by slowing the pace. Infinite resources are still infinite. Dps increased for many classes. Many of the cp changes are stellar. But alot of the class balancing is jist ***.

Drachenfier · June 2017

I miss the old EQ days where it took time to work your way through things, instead of this new WoW era generation of "kill everything as fast as possible".

NordJitsu · June 2017

Drachenfier wrote: »

I miss the old EQ days where it took time to work your way through things, instead of this new WoW era generation of "kill everything as fast as possible".

Totally agree.

This combat is designed to be thoughtful. You're supposed to block, dodge, interrupt, use heavy and light attacks wisely. It's not supposed to be a button mashing mess of rotations. Now, they screwed that up originally when they allowed for animation canceling. But that's impossible to fix now and it's part of the game.

That doesn't mean they can't improve other things. At launch, PvP was just holding Block and spamming rotations of abilities to generate ultimate, then nuking. They changed ultimate generation so you have to light attack sometimes. They also made Block more expensive. But still, people's regent was so good they never have to heavy attack, until this patch.

ESO is getting better slowly. It still sometimes feels like a game in development. You can see what this game is supposed to be and it's amazing, 10/10. But the execution has been off. I feel like the game has grown from about a 6 at launch to about an 8 now.

Sevalaricgirl · June 2017

Just hit things with a big stick. You'll build up your stam easily that way.