Seducer is a Trash Set - Why do all like it ?

raasdal · June 2017

For many years, the Seducer crafted set has always been a go to. Currently i see it alot since Morrowind dropped, as people are trying to sustain better. But i do not understand why people love it? The 5 pc. bonus is utter trash, compared to so much else?

Am i wrong here? If so, please explain more?

Here are my observations;

5 pc. bonus is 8% reduction.

Let's take best case scenario for the effectiveness. We are a MagDK in ALL heavy. So we got an average magicka cost of let's say 3500 (3-4k for support and 2-2,5k for spammables). And we have NO other cost reduction whatsoever, to dilude the effectiveness.
In this case, the 8% will translate into 280 Magicka Cost Reduction. A single Cost Reduction glyph is for 203 Magicka. So the 5 pc. bonus can be negated completely by 1.4 Jewelry enchants. And this is BEST case. When you start to use 1 or more light armor, the effectiveness gets even worse. Or if you get passives from Breton or any other cost reduction source. For example, on a 5/1/1 Sorcerer (10% cost reduction from LA passive), you will be looking at an effectiveness of prob. 190-230 magicka cost reduction. In this case, the entire 5 pc. can be covered by a SINGLE jewelry glyph.

Whenever i see / hear someone using Seducer, and then having 3 x Spell Power on the jewelry, i just can't understand that? And it happens often these days. I can't think of any scenario, where it would not be better to change 2-3 glyphs to regen, and then choose a different set than seducer, to provide the damage. Or even just flat out change Seducer to a more effective sustain set.

There are only 2 reasons / scenarios, where i think it is viable;

1. Because it can be crafted Heavy Armor for MagDK's. So someone might be pigeonholed into it, due to wanting other sets, but needing Heavy.
2. If you are running ALL sustain on everything. If you are not running any damage on jewelry, or anything like that.

Other than that, i just dont see the math supporting this set? There are ALOT of sets out there, that provide 2-5 Jewelry enchants worth of either Damage or Sustain on the 5 pc. alone. So why would you ever choose a 5 pc. set worth only a single jewelry enchant?

Darlgon · June 2017

From August 2015

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2150073#Comment_2150073

Qbiken · June 2017

I think the mainreason is that it´s easy accessable. 8% is noticable when I play with my magDK in PvP (runnint 5 Seducer+5Rattlecage+Bloodspawn). Sure there might be better sets, but I´m not willing to pay a fortune on sturdy impregnable armor pieces just yet

Rianai · June 2017

Percentage cost reduction always applies to the base cost.The light armor passive does not decrease the effectiveness of seducer or other percentage cost reductions. Static cost reductions like glyphes however lower the base cost and therefore lower the effectiveness of percentage cost reductions like the one from the light armor passive. So with 5x light a cost reduction glyph is only worth about 180 reduction. And if you translate an average cost reduction of 280 from seducer to magicka regeneration, that's equal to 560 regen or ~ 2-3x regen glyphs, assuming you use an ability every second. So which gear sets grant a 5pc bonus worth more than 3 jewelry glyphes?

Didz · June 2017

Most of my magic users begin with 5 x Seducer. It's a 3 trait set so quite easy to craft, and provides a decent boost to Max.Magicka and Magic Recovery. The 8% reduction in spell cost is 'meh!', but better imo than the 8%chance of no cost provided by Magnus Gift which is a 4 Trait set.

I'm actually curious what you would recommend instead?

For my current Sorcerer/Tank I'm considering 5 x Julianos, plus 4 x Redistributor. Though I'm currently using Seducer and Magnus Gift on my healers.

raasdal · June 2017

Rianai wrote: »

Percentage cost reduction always applies to the base cost.The light armor passive does not decrease the effectiveness of seducer or other percentage cost reductions. Static cost reductions like glyphes however lower the base cost and therefore lower the effectiveness of percentage cost reductions like the one from the light armor passive. So with 5x light a cost reduction glyph is only worth about 180 reduction. And if you translate an average cost reduction of 280 from seducer to magicka regeneration, that's equal to 560 regen or ~ 2-3x regen glyphs, assuming you use an ability every second. So which gear sets grant a 5pc bonus worth more than 3 jewelry glyphes?

You are right about the percentage effectiveness. I was confusing it with the old Magician CP, which would stack negatively. So for LA it does not actually reduce the effectiveness, while using flat cost reduction does. I will correct the OP later.

But your calculation is deeply flawed at the end. If you want to convert the (max eff.) 280 redux into regen like that, you would need to do the same to the quivalent redux enchant. Meaning that one would be app. Worth 420 regen. So it is still only 1.5 glyph worth, even when correcting the mistake about LA and other reductions. To proper compare Seducer effectiveness, you need to stick to the redux enchant.

For more effective sets, there are such as Sun, BSW, Lich, War Maiden, Desert Rose etc etc etc, depending on class and purpose.

Qbiken wrote: »

I think the mainreason is that it´s easy accessable. 8% is noticable when I play with my magDK in PvP (runnint 5 Seducer+5Rattlecage+Bloodspawn). Sure there might be better sets, but I´m not willing to pay a fortune on sturdy impregnable armor pieces just yet

Conevience - sure. I get that. But i also see it on grindheavy builds on from streamers etc.

What are you running on the jewelry for that build @Qbiken ? And what parts are Seducer? Heavy/light etc?

Qbiken · June 2017

raasdal wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

Percentage cost reduction always applies to the base cost.The light armor passive does not decrease the effectiveness of seducer or other percentage cost reductions. Static cost reductions like glyphes however lower the base cost and therefore lower the effectiveness of percentage cost reductions like the one from the light armor passive. So with 5x light a cost reduction glyph is only worth about 180 reduction. And if you translate an average cost reduction of 280 from seducer to magicka regeneration, that's equal to 560 regen or ~ 2-3x regen glyphs, assuming you use an ability every second. So which gear sets grant a 5pc bonus worth more than 3 jewelry glyphes?

You are right about the percentage effectiveness. I was confusing it with the old Magician CP, which would stack negatively. So for LA it does not actually reduce the effectiveness, while using flat cost reduction does. I will correct the OP later.

But your calculation is deeply flawed at the end. If you want to convert the (max eff.) 280 redux into regen like that, you would need to do the same to the quivalent redux enchant. Meaning that one would be app. Worth 420 regen. So it is still only 1.5 glyph worth, even when correcting the mistake about LA and other reductions. To proper compare Seducer effectiveness, you need to stick to the redux enchant.

For more effective sets, there are such as Sun, BSW, Lich, War Maiden, Desert Rose etc etc etc, depending on class and purpose.

Qbiken wrote: »

I think the mainreason is that it´s easy accessable. 8% is noticable when I play with my magDK in PvP (runnint 5 Seducer+5Rattlecage+Bloodspawn). Sure there might be better sets, but I´m not willing to pay a fortune on sturdy impregnable armor pieces just yet

Conevience - sure. I get that. But i also see it on grindheavy builds on from streamers etc.

What are you running on the jewelry for that build @Qbiken ? And what parts are Seducer? Heavy/light etc?

@raasdal I´m running 3 Rattlecage. Rattlecage comes in healthy rings/jewels. But there´re 1 unique necklace and 1 unique ring that comes in arcane (both drops from first boss in vVoM). I´m running Seducer on 1h+shield (on both bars) and 3 body. 3 rattlecage jewels+2 bodypieces.

Alcast · June 2017

Its very easy to get

Rianai · June 2017

raasdal wrote: »

But your calculation is deeply flawed at the end. If you want to convert the (max eff.) 280 redux into regen like that, you would need to do the same to the quivalent redux enchant. Meaning that one would be app. Worth 420 regen. So it is still only 1.5 glyph worth, even when correcting the mistake about LA and other reductions. To proper compare Seducer effectiveness, you need to stick to the redux enchant.

For more effective sets, there are such as Sun, BSW, Lich, War Maiden, Desert Rose etc etc etc, depending on class and purpose.

Yes, i shouldn't compare it to regen, i just did it, because most seem to value regen glyphs higher than cost reduction glyphs (though i haven't checked the math behind it, it is just what i gathered from various forumposts. I guess i valued regen glyphes too low in my calculation). But even if seducer = 1,5 glyphes, is it really so much worse than those other sets? Julianos, which is considered to be only slightly worse than BiS gear, grants a 5pc bonus worth 1,7 spell dmg glyphes, so not that much more than Seducer. Considering how easy it is to get Seducer compared to the sets you mentioned, i wouldn't call it trash. Not optimal sure, but not that bad either.

Ishammael · June 2017

The most important feature of Seducer is that it is craftable, meaning that it can be heavy or light armor.

There are zero other heavy sustain magicka sets.

raasdal · June 2017

Rianai wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

But your calculation is deeply flawed at the end. If you want to convert the (max eff.) 280 redux into regen like that, you would need to do the same to the quivalent redux enchant. Meaning that one would be app. Worth 420 regen. So it is still only 1.5 glyph worth, even when correcting the mistake about LA and other reductions. To proper compare Seducer effectiveness, you need to stick to the redux enchant.

For more effective sets, there are such as Sun, BSW, Lich, War Maiden, Desert Rose etc etc etc, depending on class and purpose.

Yes, i shouldn't compare it to regen, i just did it, because most seem to value regen glyphs higher than cost reduction glyphs (though i haven't checked the math behind it, it is just what i gathered from various forumposts. I guess i valued regen glyphes too low in my calculation). But even if seducer = 1,5 glyphes, is it really so much worse than those other sets? Julianos, which is considered to be only slightly worse than BiS gear, grants a 5pc bonus worth 1,7 spell dmg glyphes, so not that much more than Seducer. Considering how easy it is to get Seducer compared to the sets you mentioned, i wouldn't call it trash. Not optimal sure, but not that bad either.

Point taken. I am also getting the general feeling here, that it is due to the easy access.

Qbiken wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

Percentage cost reduction always applies to the base cost.The light armor passive does not decrease the effectiveness of seducer or other percentage cost reductions. Static cost reductions like glyphes however lower the base cost and therefore lower the effectiveness of percentage cost reductions like the one from the light armor passive. So with 5x light a cost reduction glyph is only worth about 180 reduction. And if you translate an average cost reduction of 280 from seducer to magicka regeneration, that's equal to 560 regen or ~ 2-3x regen glyphs, assuming you use an ability every second. So which gear sets grant a 5pc bonus worth more than 3 jewelry glyphes?

You are right about the percentage effectiveness. I was confusing it with the old Magician CP, which would stack negatively. So for LA it does not actually reduce the effectiveness, while using flat cost reduction does. I will correct the OP later.

But your calculation is deeply flawed at the end. If you want to convert the (max eff.) 280 redux into regen like that, you would need to do the same to the quivalent redux enchant. Meaning that one would be app. Worth 420 regen. So it is still only 1.5 glyph worth, even when correcting the mistake about LA and other reductions. To proper compare Seducer effectiveness, you need to stick to the redux enchant.

For more effective sets, there are such as Sun, BSW, Lich, War Maiden, Desert Rose etc etc etc, depending on class and purpose.

Qbiken wrote: »

I think the mainreason is that it´s easy accessable. 8% is noticable when I play with my magDK in PvP (runnint 5 Seducer+5Rattlecage+Bloodspawn). Sure there might be better sets, but I´m not willing to pay a fortune on sturdy impregnable armor pieces just yet

Conevience - sure. I get that. But i also see it on grindheavy builds on from streamers etc.

What are you running on the jewelry for that build @Qbiken ? And what parts are Seducer? Heavy/light etc?

@raasdal I´m running 3 Rattlecage. Rattlecage comes in healthy rings/jewels. But there´re 1 unique necklace and 1 unique ring that comes in arcane (both drops from first boss in vVoM). I´m running Seducer on 1h+shield (on both bars) and 3 body. 3 rattlecage jewels+2 bodypieces.

@Qbiken - what enchants are you using on the jewelry? And are the 3 body seducer heavy, medium or light? Guessing one of each, for a 5/1/1?

Qbiken · June 2017

On my jewels I use 2 dmg glyphs and 1 reduce magicka cost glyph.

The 3 body parts Seducer are all heavy. At the moment I run a 7 Heavy setup (because RNG isn´t that kind with Bloodspawn in the correct traits and armor type).

Waffennacht · June 2017

The differences are minimal.

But also consider the x2 magicka Regen + max magicka bonus with other sets, I cannot think of a set with x2 Regen, x1 max magicka and a resource management 5th piece bonus.

I.e. Amberplasm is 1 max mag, spell crit, spell DMG and 300 Regen - seducer gives approximately same Regen (ok like 40 less) same max Magicka and has a cost reduction. Side by side seducer provides far more resources.

Because most sets have different 2-4 bonus I can see why some pick seducer.

I also cannot think of a offensive set that also provides substantial resource management. - I think Trinimac's Valor is the closest thing (bleh)

I guess another variable is that DMG Glyphs are 175 at gold and I think somewhere around 160 Regen? So going DMG glygh + Regen set may provide like 45 more spell damage than going Regen glyphs and DMG set?

Just speculating as I don't use Seducer

Masel · June 2017

I entered the seducer, lich and desert rose into my sustain simulator, and here are the results:

With 7 light armor, under perfect circumstances, we'd have Desert Rose as a Winner, Lich on Second Place and Seducer on last, but ONLY when assuming desert rose procs on cooldown which is very unrealistic. Lich also gives a bonus outside of combat, which desert rose and seducer do NOT. This does not change when switching to 5/1/1. All three setups use the same warden rotation and are completely identical besides the respective set bonuses and races.

Second Column is Seducer+Breton (Cost Reduction Setup), third is Argonian+Desert Rose (Tanky Setup) and fourth is Lich+Altmer (Recovery Setup).

in PvP of course, you have the siphoner cp, so i simulated that as well. The order of best sets does not change, so even with the Siphoner CP debuff, i'd always recommend using lich for sustain. even more when you consider that it is a activatable buff on the back bar. If you want to play around with it yourself, download it here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5rszf39l3mj6nlw/Sustain Analyser.xlsm?dl=0

DeHei · June 2017

I dont really understand this sustain problems.. Its all something like training to play very successfull with a full damage build anymore in PvE and PvP. Take a look at this:
1. With a full damage build you are able to make the maximum burst, if needed
2. Your heals are better too, so more survivalbility
3. Your sustain with heavy attacks is higher/ you need to use heavy attacks for sustain/ your damage is higher here too!
4. Your are not able to spam skills anymore over a long term, but be sure you dont need. You use heavy attacks instead of skills! This heavy attacks deal same damage like skills from guys with this sustain builds and bring back ressources. Magicka based classes win with this tactic, because the heavy attacks for exemple from lightning- and healingstaffs hit allways!
Its all just a thing of playerskill...

In PvP you just need a bit reg for more flexibility.. 1100-1200 in light armor is still enough..

Illurian · June 2017

DeHei wrote: »

I dont really understand this sustain problems.. Its all something like training to play very successfull with a full damage build anymore in PvE and PvP. Take a look at this:
1. With a full damage build you are able to make the maximum burst, if needed
2. Your heals are better too, so more survivalbility
3. Your sustain with heavy attacks is higher/ you need to use heavy attacks for sustain/ your damage is higher here too!
4. Your are not able to spam skills anymore over a long term, but be sure you dont need. You use heavy attacks instead of skills! This heavy attacks deal same damage like skills from guys with this sustain builds and bring back ressources. Magicka based classes win with this tactic, because the heavy attacks for exemple from lightning- and healingstaffs hit allways!
Its all just a thing of playerskill...

In PvP you just need a bit reg for more flexibility.. 1100-1200 in light armor is still enough..

Uhm. Have you tried comparing your own dps on the target skeleton pre-morrowind vs live?

Sure, it's not hard to weave in heavy attacks, but your dps definitely takes a hit. Saying that heavy attacks deal the same damage as using skills is simply inaccurate. Most skills fire off immediately and deal higher damage than heavy attacks. Heavy attacks require 2 seconds to charge up and hit lower than most skills. The only reason to heavy attack is resource return.

DeHei · June 2017

Illurian wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

I dont really understand this sustain problems.. Its all something like training to play very successfull with a full damage build anymore in PvE and PvP. Take a look at this:
1. With a full damage build you are able to make the maximum burst, if needed
2. Your heals are better too, so more survivalbility
3. Your sustain with heavy attacks is higher/ you need to use heavy attacks for sustain/ your damage is higher here too!
4. Your are not able to spam skills anymore over a long term, but be sure you dont need. You use heavy attacks instead of skills! This heavy attacks deal same damage like skills from guys with this sustain builds and bring back ressources. Magicka based classes win with this tactic, because the heavy attacks for exemple from lightning- and healingstaffs hit allways!
Its all just a thing of playerskill...

In PvP you just need a bit reg for more flexibility.. 1100-1200 in light armor is still enough..

Uhm. Have you tried comparing your own dps on the target skeleton pre-morrowind vs live?

Sure, it's not hard to weave in heavy attacks, but your dps definitely takes a hit. Saying that heavy attacks deal the same damage as using skills is simply inaccurate. Most skills fire off immediately and deal higher damage than heavy attacks. Heavy attacks require 2 seconds to charge up and hit lower than most skills. The only reason to heavy attack is resource return.

When you decrease your Spellpower, max magicka and crit for more sustain, you will lose damage in total. I use more DPS then before now, just with putting 1 heavy attack in my rotation.. with enough sustain to spam skills all time i lost DPS... its very simple to understand, not??

Illurian · June 2017

DeHei wrote: »

Illurian wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

I dont really understand this sustain problems.. Its all something like training to play very successfull with a full damage build anymore in PvE and PvP. Take a look at this:
1. With a full damage build you are able to make the maximum burst, if needed
2. Your heals are better too, so more survivalbility
3. Your sustain with heavy attacks is higher/ you need to use heavy attacks for sustain/ your damage is higher here too!
4. Your are not able to spam skills anymore over a long term, but be sure you dont need. You use heavy attacks instead of skills! This heavy attacks deal same damage like skills from guys with this sustain builds and bring back ressources. Magicka based classes win with this tactic, because the heavy attacks for exemple from lightning- and healingstaffs hit allways!
Its all just a thing of playerskill...

In PvP you just need a bit reg for more flexibility.. 1100-1200 in light armor is still enough..

Uhm. Have you tried comparing your own dps on the target skeleton pre-morrowind vs live?

Sure, it's not hard to weave in heavy attacks, but your dps definitely takes a hit. Saying that heavy attacks deal the same damage as using skills is simply inaccurate. Most skills fire off immediately and deal higher damage than heavy attacks. Heavy attacks require 2 seconds to charge up and hit lower than most skills. The only reason to heavy attack is resource return.

When you decrease your Spellpower, max magicka and crit for more sustain, you will lose damage in total. I use more DPS then before now, just with putting 1 heavy attack in my rotation.. with enough sustain to spam skills all time i lost DPS... its very simple to understand, not??

My gripe wasn't with your idea of sustain vs dps sets. My dps characters also use pure dps sets (even dps glyphs in jewelry) and sustain with food and pots. My gripe was with your statement that heavy attacks "deal the same damage" as skills. This is simply not true.

Waffennacht · June 2017

DeHei wrote: »

Illurian wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

I dont really understand this sustain problems.. Its all something like training to play very successfull with a full damage build anymore in PvE and PvP. Take a look at this:
1. With a full damage build you are able to make the maximum burst, if needed
2. Your heals are better too, so more survivalbility
3. Your sustain with heavy attacks is higher/ you need to use heavy attacks for sustain/ your damage is higher here too!
4. Your are not able to spam skills anymore over a long term, but be sure you dont need. You use heavy attacks instead of skills! This heavy attacks deal same damage like skills from guys with this sustain builds and bring back ressources. Magicka based classes win with this tactic, because the heavy attacks for exemple from lightning- and healingstaffs hit allways!
Its all just a thing of playerskill...

In PvP you just need a bit reg for more flexibility.. 1100-1200 in light armor is still enough..

Uhm. Have you tried comparing your own dps on the target skeleton pre-morrowind vs live?

Sure, it's not hard to weave in heavy attacks, but your dps definitely takes a hit. Saying that heavy attacks deal the same damage as using skills is simply inaccurate. Most skills fire off immediately and deal higher damage than heavy attacks. Heavy attacks require 2 seconds to charge up and hit lower than most skills. The only reason to heavy attack is resource return.

When you decrease your Spellpower, max magicka and crit for more sustain, you will lose damage in total. I use more DPS then before now, just with putting 1 heavy attack in my rotation.. with enough sustain to spam skills all time i lost DPS... its very simple to understand, not??

Yeah but this isn't about PvE, PvE is necro/war maiden/etc + Moondance

Like every magicka PvE build listed in guides run the exact same gear and it's not Seducer

Seducer, you'll see for PvP, primarily non CP Battlegrounds where Regen and resources are far more important.

If you're mindset is in PvE then you're on the wrong path here

DeHei · June 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

Illurian wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

I dont really understand this sustain problems.. Its all something like training to play very successfull with a full damage build anymore in PvE and PvP. Take a look at this:
1. With a full damage build you are able to make the maximum burst, if needed
2. Your heals are better too, so more survivalbility
3. Your sustain with heavy attacks is higher/ you need to use heavy attacks for sustain/ your damage is higher here too!
4. Your are not able to spam skills anymore over a long term, but be sure you dont need. You use heavy attacks instead of skills! This heavy attacks deal same damage like skills from guys with this sustain builds and bring back ressources. Magicka based classes win with this tactic, because the heavy attacks for exemple from lightning- and healingstaffs hit allways!
Its all just a thing of playerskill...

In PvP you just need a bit reg for more flexibility.. 1100-1200 in light armor is still enough..

Uhm. Have you tried comparing your own dps on the target skeleton pre-morrowind vs live?

Sure, it's not hard to weave in heavy attacks, but your dps definitely takes a hit. Saying that heavy attacks deal the same damage as using skills is simply inaccurate. Most skills fire off immediately and deal higher damage than heavy attacks. Heavy attacks require 2 seconds to charge up and hit lower than most skills. The only reason to heavy attack is resource return.

When you decrease your Spellpower, max magicka and crit for more sustain, you will lose damage in total. I use more DPS then before now, just with putting 1 heavy attack in my rotation.. with enough sustain to spam skills all time i lost DPS... its very simple to understand, not??

Yeah but this isn't about PvE, PvE is necro/war maiden/etc + Moondance

Like every magicka PvE build listed in guides run the exact same gear and it's not Seducer

Seducer, you'll see for PvP, primarily non CP Battlegrounds where Regen and resources are far more important.

If you're mindset is in PvE then you're on the wrong path here

You can run a nearly full DPS build in battlegrounds too, when you wear 1 of these: lightning- and healingstaff.. they hit allways and bring back enough ressources for Magicka player..
In PvP i run with my magicka templar with 1100-1200 reg and light armor and its enough sustain, thats what i am talking.. in PvE are nearly 800 reg enough..
isnt important to have much sustain, when you know how to play!

Izaki · June 2017

Rianai wrote: »

Percentage cost reduction always applies to the base cost.The light armor passive does not decrease the effectiveness of seducer or other percentage cost reductions. Static cost reductions like glyphes however lower the base cost and therefore lower the effectiveness of percentage cost reductions like the one from the light armor passive. So with 5x light a cost reduction glyph is only worth about 180 reduction. And if you translate an average cost reduction of 280 from seducer to magicka regeneration, that's equal to 560 regen or ~ 2-3x regen glyphs, assuming you use an ability every second. So which gear sets grant a 5pc bonus worth more than 3 jewelry glyphes?

Vicious Ophidian... Just sayin'. Such an awesome set.

Waffennacht · June 2017

DeHei wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

Illurian wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

I dont really understand this sustain problems.. Its all something like training to play very successfull with a full damage build anymore in PvE and PvP. Take a look at this:
1. With a full damage build you are able to make the maximum burst, if needed
2. Your heals are better too, so more survivalbility
3. Your sustain with heavy attacks is higher/ you need to use heavy attacks for sustain/ your damage is higher here too!
4. Your are not able to spam skills anymore over a long term, but be sure you dont need. You use heavy attacks instead of skills! This heavy attacks deal same damage like skills from guys with this sustain builds and bring back ressources. Magicka based classes win with this tactic, because the heavy attacks for exemple from lightning- and healingstaffs hit allways!
Its all just a thing of playerskill...

In PvP you just need a bit reg for more flexibility.. 1100-1200 in light armor is still enough..

Uhm. Have you tried comparing your own dps on the target skeleton pre-morrowind vs live?

Sure, it's not hard to weave in heavy attacks, but your dps definitely takes a hit. Saying that heavy attacks deal the same damage as using skills is simply inaccurate. Most skills fire off immediately and deal higher damage than heavy attacks. Heavy attacks require 2 seconds to charge up and hit lower than most skills. The only reason to heavy attack is resource return.

When you decrease your Spellpower, max magicka and crit for more sustain, you will lose damage in total. I use more DPS then before now, just with putting 1 heavy attack in my rotation.. with enough sustain to spam skills all time i lost DPS... its very simple to understand, not??

Yeah but this isn't about PvE, PvE is necro/war maiden/etc + Moondance

Like every magicka PvE build listed in guides run the exact same gear and it's not Seducer

Seducer, you'll see for PvP, primarily non CP Battlegrounds where Regen and resources are far more important.

If you're mindset is in PvE then you're on the wrong path here

You can run a nearly full DPS build in battlegrounds too, when you wear 1 of these: lightning- and healingstaff.. they hit allways and bring back enough ressources for Magicka player..
In PvP i run with my magicka templar with 1100-1200 reg and light armor and its enough sustain, thats what i am talking.. in PvE are nearly 800 reg enough..
isnt important to have much sustain, when you know how to play!

That works well until you play a team and they block it putting you off-balance. Against unorganized or inexperienced players those work well, against some, it'll leave you dead

Lexxypwns · June 2017

Like @Ishammael said, Seducer is BiS(only) heavy armor magika sustain set.

This means any build that's using 1 light armor set for their damage(BSW, spinners, maiden, necro), wants to wear 5 heavy, and feels they need a sustain set should be in seducer.

It's really simple, many sets will give you the damage you need, the choices for magika sustain are less. Lich is great, but only comes in light, on builds that back bar resto/destro with Snb/DW front bar you also waste a slot with it. Desert rose is not reliable enough to be your only sustain. Warlock is mediocre. Bloodthorn is nice but suffers issues when forced to go defensive. Seducer has no weakness like bloodthorn/DR, comes in heavy, and is better than warlock. Amber is hands down better, but no heavy.

Basically if you want a single magika sustain set for pvp you need to look at lich, amber, seducer, or alteration mastery and see what fits best into the setup you're running. Any time that setup requires your sustain set to be heavy seducer is the only option.

Process of elimination.

DeHei · June 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

Illurian wrote: »

DeHei wrote: »

I dont really understand this sustain problems.. Its all something like training to play very successfull with a full damage build anymore in PvE and PvP. Take a look at this:
1. With a full damage build you are able to make the maximum burst, if needed
2. Your heals are better too, so more survivalbility
3. Your sustain with heavy attacks is higher/ you need to use heavy attacks for sustain/ your damage is higher here too!
4. Your are not able to spam skills anymore over a long term, but be sure you dont need. You use heavy attacks instead of skills! This heavy attacks deal same damage like skills from guys with this sustain builds and bring back ressources. Magicka based classes win with this tactic, because the heavy attacks for exemple from lightning- and healingstaffs hit allways!
Its all just a thing of playerskill...

In PvP you just need a bit reg for more flexibility.. 1100-1200 in light armor is still enough..

Uhm. Have you tried comparing your own dps on the target skeleton pre-morrowind vs live?

Sure, it's not hard to weave in heavy attacks, but your dps definitely takes a hit. Saying that heavy attacks deal the same damage as using skills is simply inaccurate. Most skills fire off immediately and deal higher damage than heavy attacks. Heavy attacks require 2 seconds to charge up and hit lower than most skills. The only reason to heavy attack is resource return.

When you decrease your Spellpower, max magicka and crit for more sustain, you will lose damage in total. I use more DPS then before now, just with putting 1 heavy attack in my rotation.. with enough sustain to spam skills all time i lost DPS... its very simple to understand, not??

Yeah but this isn't about PvE, PvE is necro/war maiden/etc + Moondance

Like every magicka PvE build listed in guides run the exact same gear and it's not Seducer

Seducer, you'll see for PvP, primarily non CP Battlegrounds where Regen and resources are far more important.

If you're mindset is in PvE then you're on the wrong path here

You can run a nearly full DPS build in battlegrounds too, when you wear 1 of these: lightning- and healingstaff.. they hit allways and bring back enough ressources for Magicka player..
In PvP i run with my magicka templar with 1100-1200 reg and light armor and its enough sustain, thats what i am talking.. in PvE are nearly 800 reg enough..
isnt important to have much sustain, when you know how to play!

That works well until you play a team and they block it putting you off-balance. Against unorganized or inexperienced players those work well, against some, it'll leave you dead

There are not so much permablocker anymore and you dont need to fear them.. Sure a complete team of permablocker would be bad for your sustain, but there isnt enough damage on you..
4 heavy armored Stam DK would be awesome, but i play my build similar to a PvE build with lot of dots.. they work great against everything!

Ultimate_Overlord · June 2017

@DeHei Go try spamming your heavy attacks in light when playing solo.

DeHei · June 2017

Ultimate_Overlord wrote: »

@DeHei Go try spamming your heavy attacks in light when playing solo.

I dont just spam heavy attacks... buts ok, not possible to explain you something..

victoriana-blue · June 2017

raasdal wrote: »

For many years, the Seducer crafted set has always been a go to. Currently i see it alot since Morrowind dropped, as people are trying to sustain better. But i do not understand why people love it? The 5 pc. bonus is utter trash, compared to so much else?

I like it because with an ice staff, magicka regen stops while you're blocking. Seducer's cost reduction helps a lot in content where I need sustain AND cc AND to block frequently, like learning vMA.

And it's a heck of a lot easier to get in the traits I want than IA or Worm.