Classes and skill lines - possible alternative

oranje_elf · June 2017

Elder Scrolls was always a game with no actual classes defined, as your play style (and skills you choose) defines your class for you. I was a bit disappointed when I started playing ESO that I was forced into one of the four classes, and I was always dreaming of some form of true hybrid builds across classes, which I can experience playing the same character.

What I would actually want to propose is to make it other way around - it is not that you choose a class that defines your skill lines, but skill lines define your class. You have to pick several "class" skill lines (probably, also "weapon" ones) to choose your "class". I can choose any skill lines from the list of available, and I can change them any time ("re-morph" them).

Let us say if I choose Shadow, Assassination and Siphoning - I am a Nightblade, if I choose Shadow, Assassination and Daedric Summoning - I am a Daedric Ranger (or whatever). In this case classes are simply "labels" over your selection. They may have certain bonuses (e.g., Nightblade may have a very useful bonus for extra stealth damage) through which ZoS can buff/nerf certain combinations of skill lines to make it (at least somewhat) balanced.

Probably, to make it more manageable, selection should be limited to 2 skill lines (+ 2 weapon skill lines).

Then, ZoS can introduce a new skill line every major update, and I will be looking forward to it since my main character may benefit from it (or, at least, play with it for a few weeks), unlike a new class that my only character (including me) cannot enjoy and does not have an incentive to pay for.

PS Apologies if it has already been discussed and proposed before, but the more I am thinking of it the more I like it. Could not resist sharing these thoughts ;-).

Dracindo · June 2017

So this way, you can get the best skills from all class skill trees. No thanks.

Also, I can understand why you have to pay for a Warden, but if this idea gets implemented, then it will be P2W.

I don't really dislike the idea, but it would only further promote the Min-Max playstyle, and "Play however you like"-players will have an even tougher time with end game content.

oranje_elf · June 2017

Dracindo wrote: »

So this way, you can get the best skills from all class skill trees. No thanks.

Not the best skills, but best skill lines (or, actually combinations of them if we have an extra bonus for certain combinations). Of course, you will have its own meta over skill line selections for each role (dd/tank/heal/..), but it is not any different from the current situation when you are forced to choose a class with "best skills" for any serious endgame PVE, and your character with a "wrong" class cannot do anything with that.

cmetzger93 · June 2017

I love the idea and if they could balance it right it would be amazing. There is always going to be a meta for Max DPS but it would allow for some pretty diverse builds. Anyone who says there isn't homogenization already is delusional.

Dracindo · June 2017

oranje_elf wrote: »

Dracindo wrote: »

So this way, you can get the best skills from all class skill trees. No thanks.

Not the best skills, but best skill lines

I should've worded that better

but I understood what you meant.

Still, let's say all the meta builds tell you to have a warden skill tree for 1 or more skills and passives. I don't have a warden, so they'll say I can pick an alternative skill line, but your DPS/Tankiness/Heals will not be optimal. If most of the optimal builds require a warden skill tree, then it will be P2W (unless they decide to put warden in the base game (just do it ZOS)).
So if Warden gets free, I can see this work and I would certainly upvote it.

Even so, I don't know how this will work out: Class change tokens aren't a thing, how is this going to be added as well, then? Does everyone lose his class and get to pick 3 skill lines? And what if you pick the wrong ones? Can you reset it then or are you doomed to delete your character?

idk · June 2017

And Zos already has challenges balancing the game. OP wants to increase that challenge further giving Zos more reason to screw with us every three months.

FYI, the best skill lines would become meta. One would not be able to min max without those skill lines. Further, every three minths those skill lines woile he nerfed and another three skill lines will be BiS requiring one to roll a new character or pay up cash to change.

Hugely bad idea.

Bouldercleave · June 2017

This won't promote diversity - it will create just the opposite.

You will have the entire game running the same three skill lines (the meta). You think it won't happen, but it will.

STEVIL · June 2017

Bouldercleave wrote: »

This won't promote diversity - it will create just the opposite.

You will have the entire game running the same three skill lines (the meta). You think it won't happen, but it will.

pretty much this...

the biggest false belief is that more freedom produces more diversity... it doesn't. Going from 100 possible combos to 1000 possible combos in a competitive framework likely just creates an increase of 900 more unused combos plus a few more cuz of the reduction in used combos.

it is restrictions that drive diversity more than options.

however, honeslty, it is more like a laffer curve thing...

Extreme lack of restrictions means few actually used options.
Extreme overabundance of restrictions means few actually used options.

The sweet spot is when you have large enough "packages" that you can give them trade-offs and synergies. The current setup with classes as a biggest package with multiple skill lines with passives that cross-relate, smaller packages like weapons and guilds which are more internally focused but which can impact the other packages and so on provides for a decent number of combos depending on the content, role and need.

Road to diversity does not begin by adding more sameness, nor by removing differences.

oranje_elf · June 2017

Dracindo wrote: »

Even so, I don't know how this will work out: Class change tokens aren't a thing, how is this going to be added as well, then? Does everyone lose his class and get to pick 3 skill lines? And what if you pick the wrong ones? Can you reset it then or are you doomed to delete your character?

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Further, every three months those skill lines woile he nerfed and another three skill lines will be BiS requiring one to roll a new character or pay up cash to change.

You should be able to reset it any time (e.g., using a shrine), otherwise it will be the same as of now - you are stuck with your (or given by ZoS with pre-defined classes) selection. What I want to have instead is being able to play sorc-ish class when I am going to trials, or re-roll as DK if we miss our "fetch those adds" guy, then switch to NB-ish class for PVP ganking, then do something else for BGs, etc. My current build feels "stale" as I essentially have same skills for the last 6 months with very few changes, and I would love to have some diversity in my play style without starting a new class.

Unfortunately, after reading all your comments and giving more thought to it, I am now more inclined to agree with:

Bouldercleave wrote: »

This won't promote diversity - it will create just the opposite.