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Why is everyone so upset? ESO takes place duing a a Dragon Break it won't effect TES6. Relax
RinaldoGandolphi
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Everyone take it easy. I know ESO and the Morrowind expansions are not EXACTLY like the single player games, and they do not exactly follow all the single player lore to a tee. That's OK though, your living in a Dragon Break where everything is possible. Enjoy it!
Most Direct Evidence ESO is a Dragon Break
"It's good to see you again. And I do see you, in my own way. You are a wound in time, a tear in reality that shouldn't exist and cannot long endure." - The Prophet
This quote pretty much sums it up.The Prophet says you are a "wound in time" This is how a Dragon Break is described, when you break the dragon. The small dragon break that occurred when Alduin was banished was known by a similar name (Time-Wound)
How did this event happen
The ritual attempt that Varen Aquilarios thought he could use Chim-El Adabal(Amulet of Kings) to re-light the Dragonfires and make him Dragonborn did far more then just break the covenant with Akatosh and lower the barriers between Nirn and Oblivion. It also Sundered and broke time. Thanks to Mannimacro and his vile schemes. Of course Mannimacro had ulterior motives, he wanted to be a good, and he knows a Dragon Break is his best opportunity to become one, and he finally succeeds with his 2nd Dragon Break in the events of the TES2: Daggerfall where he becomes the God of the Necromancer, and the Necromancer Moon appears in the sky.
The Elder Scrolls named this event the Soulburst. It gave Molag Bal the opportunity to disconnect the souls of Nirn from their hosts." - The Prophet
"Erase the Upstart Talos from the mythic. His presence fortifies the Wheel of the Convention, and binds our souls to this plane." _ MK Commentaries on Talos
In essence the use of the Amulet literally SHATTERED the Wheel of Contention and temporarily destroyed what keeps the Time-God linear. (this is why Herma Mora is able to draw books from the future into this timeline, because Time is broken)Also Many contradictions are quite common during Dragon Breaks.
Why Don't I see any of this stuff in game?
Because your not paying attention.
When Dragon Breaks happen, many Timelines are made, many of the same people are made, many of the protagonists are made, etc. This is seen clearly in TES2: Daggerfall where all 6 different endings are reconciled and become reality. the best example is Mannimacro, he only becomes a God in one of the 6 endings, but because he succeeds in one possible outcome, he remains a God in all of them. (Hence the Shade of Reverent as seen in Oblivion)
Contradictions
"Wounded and devastated, Jorunn barely escaped the sack of Windhelm alive. Feeling for the first time the responsibility of his royal birth, he decided to appeal to the Greybeards for aid, and so made his way, stealthily but quickly, to High Hrothgar. For reasons that have not been divulged, the Greybeards summoned a hero from Sovngarde, Wulfharth the Ash-King, to fight at Jorunn's side." - Jorunn the Skald-King - Helgreir Lute-Voice, Bard of Windhelm
"Wulfharth goes underground to wait and strengthen and reform his body anew. Oddly enough, it is Almalexia who disturbs his rest, summoning the Underking to fight alongside the Tribunal against Ada'Soom Dir-Kamal, the Akaviri demon." - Underking, Ysmir Kingmaker
As you can see, these two accounts contradict each other. Jorunn-The Skald King was written in a time where the actions could actually be confirmed by others because as the invasion takes place only 10 years prior to the events of ESO BUT The Arcturian Heresy were accounts written by Ysmir Wulfharth himself.
so which account is true?
BOTH if ESO takes place during a Dragon Break(which there is tons of in-game evidence in ESO that it does)
Lack of Info
All Dragon Breaks always have a lack of info. the Warp in the West for example, there are parts missing, no one knows exactly how all the events happened.
Everyone knows The Interregnum had a lot lost to history, but this little nugget is very interesting:
Welcome to New Aldmeri Irregulars
Then came the Dragon Break. That catastrophe was entirely the fault of Men, but the Altmer had to repair it. Now the Men of the Empire have catastrophically blundered again, and all Nirn is threatened - Aicantar of Shimmerene
Aicanter is confirming two Dragon Breaks here, the one mentioned in the book "where were you when the Dragon Broke"(which began after a fanatical sect of the Alessian Order known as the Marukhati Selective attempted to remove specific aspects of Akatosh") and another Dragon Break that occurred with "the Soul Burst"
Other inconsistencies and contradictions that can only occur during a Dragon Break
1. There are 6 different Emperors all ruling over a united Cyrodiil at the same time during the events of the Soul Burst(There were 6 campaigns at game launch all with different Emps ruling nearly uncontested over the same province at the same time...All the ring keeps on each campaign being owned by someone else militarily, yet all were ruling over the same province, all sitting on the same Ruby Throne at the same exact time)
2. I know someone is going to mention that the Blue Star Mnemoli is not present in the sky during this Dragon Break, and thats easily explainable. The standard Dragon Break preceps do not apply because even the "The Stars" are messed up due to The Soul Burst being more then a standard Dragon Break due to the barriers being gone.
This is CLEARLY seen in the events of Craglorn as the Celestials literally FALL from the sky, their entire Constellations vanish from the skies completely. This could only happen during a Dragon Break where the impossible becomes possible.
3. Mutiple "version" of you complete the same tasks or deeds for the same people hundreds of different ways. Each version of you does it in a "contradictory manner" to ensure that all possible outcomes are made possible...this is Dragon Break 101....it doesn't get any plainer then this.
Conclusion
Simply put, Chill and enjoy the game for what it is. A Dragon Break DOES NOT de-canonize the events, on the contrary a Dragon Break makes every events canon. The as a whole makes far more sense when looked at from this view point. Mortals or senitent beings in Tamriel may not remember or have any knowledge of the events that occured during this Dragon Break, but they still occured....its the way the universe makes sense out all the contradictions that would make the flow of time impossible without reconciling them in some manner. Mannimarco knew exactly what he was doing, The Soul Burst was just a "side effect" of him wanting to create a Dragon Break because he wanted to become a God, the only way he could absorb Molag Bal power is if he broke time and removed the barriers, so he could literlaly absorb his essence...he failed this time, but he later succeeds in the 3rd era during TES2 Daggerfall.
The Vestige is merely a Soul Shriven Daedra with the spirit of a man/mer and will eventually fade back to Oblivion forever once Talos Re-lights the Dragonfires in the Imperial City with the Amulet of Kings. Until then, any reality is possible. So please just enjoy the game and stop nit picking, multiple possible outcomes all being correct is what makes a Dragon break so great.,
I am personally glad we get to expereince playing one game in the series that does take place during a Dragon Break to see how the world actually works during such an event. Many of us don't realize how lucky we are to see such an event first hand.
Most Direct Evidence ESO is a Dragon Break
"It's good to see you again. And I do see you, in my own way. You are a wound in time, a tear in reality that shouldn't exist and cannot long endure." - The Prophet
This quote pretty much sums it up.The Prophet says you are a "wound in time" This is how a Dragon Break is described, when you break the dragon. The small dragon break that occurred when Alduin was banished was known by a similar name (Time-Wound)
How did this event happen
The ritual attempt that Varen Aquilarios thought he could use Chim-El Adabal(Amulet of Kings) to re-light the Dragonfires and make him Dragonborn did far more then just break the covenant with Akatosh and lower the barriers between Nirn and Oblivion. It also Sundered and broke time. Thanks to Mannimacro and his vile schemes. Of course Mannimacro had ulterior motives, he wanted to be a good, and he knows a Dragon Break is his best opportunity to become one, and he finally succeeds with his 2nd Dragon Break in the events of the TES2: Daggerfall where he becomes the God of the Necromancer, and the Necromancer Moon appears in the sky.
The Elder Scrolls named this event the Soulburst. It gave Molag Bal the opportunity to disconnect the souls of Nirn from their hosts." - The Prophet
"Erase the Upstart Talos from the mythic. His presence fortifies the Wheel of the Convention, and binds our souls to this plane." _ MK Commentaries on Talos
In essence the use of the Amulet literally SHATTERED the Wheel of Contention and temporarily destroyed what keeps the Time-God linear. (this is why Herma Mora is able to draw books from the future into this timeline, because Time is broken)Also Many contradictions are quite common during Dragon Breaks.
Why Don't I see any of this stuff in game?
Because your not paying attention.
When Dragon Breaks happen, many Timelines are made, many of the same people are made, many of the protagonists are made, etc. This is seen clearly in TES2: Daggerfall where all 6 different endings are reconciled and become reality. the best example is Mannimacro, he only becomes a God in one of the 6 endings, but because he succeeds in one possible outcome, he remains a God in all of them. (Hence the Shade of Reverent as seen in Oblivion)
Contradictions
"Wounded and devastated, Jorunn barely escaped the sack of Windhelm alive. Feeling for the first time the responsibility of his royal birth, he decided to appeal to the Greybeards for aid, and so made his way, stealthily but quickly, to High Hrothgar. For reasons that have not been divulged, the Greybeards summoned a hero from Sovngarde, Wulfharth the Ash-King, to fight at Jorunn's side." - Jorunn the Skald-King - Helgreir Lute-Voice, Bard of Windhelm
"Wulfharth goes underground to wait and strengthen and reform his body anew. Oddly enough, it is Almalexia who disturbs his rest, summoning the Underking to fight alongside the Tribunal against Ada'Soom Dir-Kamal, the Akaviri demon." - Underking, Ysmir Kingmaker
As you can see, these two accounts contradict each other. Jorunn-The Skald King was written in a time where the actions could actually be confirmed by others because as the invasion takes place only 10 years prior to the events of ESO BUT The Arcturian Heresy were accounts written by Ysmir Wulfharth himself.
so which account is true?
BOTH if ESO takes place during a Dragon Break(which there is tons of in-game evidence in ESO that it does)
Lack of Info
All Dragon Breaks always have a lack of info. the Warp in the West for example, there are parts missing, no one knows exactly how all the events happened.
"Since Your Lordship was in Black Marsh serving in the staff of Admiral Sosorius at the time, you probably know of these events only from Imperial proclamations and Chapel declarations, which identify this period as the 'Miracle of Peace'. During the 'Miracle of Peace', according to official accounts, the formerly war-wracked Iliac Bay region was transformed overnight from a patchwork of squabbling duchies and petty kingdoms into the peaceful modern counties of Hammerfell, Sentinel, Wayrest, and Orsinium. The 'Miracle of Peace', also known as the 'The Warp in the West', is celebrated as the product of the miraculous interventions of Stendarr, Mara, and Akatosh to transform this troublesome region into peaceful, well-governed Imperial counties. The catastrophic destruction of landscape and property and the large loss of life attending upon this miracle is understood to have been 'tragic, and beyond mortal comprehension.'
In as much as this account confirms and validates the current borders of these counties, and identifies the rulers and boundaries of these counties as 'ordained by the Nine', the 'Miracle of Peace' serves Imperial objectives of peaceful consolidation of ancient petty states and sovereigns into manageable Imperial jurisdictions. The other remarkable features of these events -- mass disappearances, armies mysteriously transported hundreds of miles or completely annihilated, titanic storms and celestial phenomena, apparent local discontinuities of time -- fit comfortably into the notion that these events are part of a vast, mysterious divine intervention. " The Warp in the West
In as much as this account confirms and validates the current borders of these counties, and identifies the rulers and boundaries of these counties as 'ordained by the Nine', the 'Miracle of Peace' serves Imperial objectives of peaceful consolidation of ancient petty states and sovereigns into manageable Imperial jurisdictions. The other remarkable features of these events -- mass disappearances, armies mysteriously transported hundreds of miles or completely annihilated, titanic storms and celestial phenomena, apparent local discontinuities of time -- fit comfortably into the notion that these events are part of a vast, mysterious divine intervention. " The Warp in the West
Everyone knows The Interregnum had a lot lost to history, but this little nugget is very interesting:
Welcome to New Aldmeri Irregulars
Then came the Dragon Break. That catastrophe was entirely the fault of Men, but the Altmer had to repair it. Now the Men of the Empire have catastrophically blundered again, and all Nirn is threatened - Aicantar of Shimmerene
Aicanter is confirming two Dragon Breaks here, the one mentioned in the book "where were you when the Dragon Broke"(which began after a fanatical sect of the Alessian Order known as the Marukhati Selective attempted to remove specific aspects of Akatosh") and another Dragon Break that occurred with "the Soul Burst"
Other inconsistencies and contradictions that can only occur during a Dragon Break
1. There are 6 different Emperors all ruling over a united Cyrodiil at the same time during the events of the Soul Burst(There were 6 campaigns at game launch all with different Emps ruling nearly uncontested over the same province at the same time...All the ring keeps on each campaign being owned by someone else militarily, yet all were ruling over the same province, all sitting on the same Ruby Throne at the same exact time)
2. I know someone is going to mention that the Blue Star Mnemoli is not present in the sky during this Dragon Break, and thats easily explainable. The standard Dragon Break preceps do not apply because even the "The Stars" are messed up due to The Soul Burst being more then a standard Dragon Break due to the barriers being gone.
This is CLEARLY seen in the events of Craglorn as the Celestials literally FALL from the sky, their entire Constellations vanish from the skies completely. This could only happen during a Dragon Break where the impossible becomes possible.
3. Mutiple "version" of you complete the same tasks or deeds for the same people hundreds of different ways. Each version of you does it in a "contradictory manner" to ensure that all possible outcomes are made possible...this is Dragon Break 101....it doesn't get any plainer then this.
Conclusion
Simply put, Chill and enjoy the game for what it is. A Dragon Break DOES NOT de-canonize the events, on the contrary a Dragon Break makes every events canon. The as a whole makes far more sense when looked at from this view point. Mortals or senitent beings in Tamriel may not remember or have any knowledge of the events that occured during this Dragon Break, but they still occured....its the way the universe makes sense out all the contradictions that would make the flow of time impossible without reconciling them in some manner. Mannimarco knew exactly what he was doing, The Soul Burst was just a "side effect" of him wanting to create a Dragon Break because he wanted to become a God, the only way he could absorb Molag Bal power is if he broke time and removed the barriers, so he could literlaly absorb his essence...he failed this time, but he later succeeds in the 3rd era during TES2 Daggerfall.
The Vestige is merely a Soul Shriven Daedra with the spirit of a man/mer and will eventually fade back to Oblivion forever once Talos Re-lights the Dragonfires in the Imperial City with the Amulet of Kings. Until then, any reality is possible. So please just enjoy the game and stop nit picking, multiple possible outcomes all being correct is what makes a Dragon break so great.,
I am personally glad we get to expereince playing one game in the series that does take place during a Dragon Break to see how the world actually works during such an event. Many of us don't realize how lucky we are to see such an event first hand.
Rinaldo Gandolphi-Breton Sorcerer Daggerfall Covenant
Juste Gandolphi Dark Elf Templar Daggerfall Covenant
Richter Gandolphi - Dark Elf Dragonknight Daggerfall Covenant
Mathias Gandolphi - Breton Nightblade Daggerfall Covenant
RinaldoGandolphi - High Elf Sorcerer Aldmeri Dominion
Officer Fire and Ice
Co-GM - MVP
Sorcerer's - The ONLY class in the game that is punished for using its class defining skill (Bolt Escape)
"Here in his shrine, that they have forgotten. Here do we toil, that we might remember. By night we reclaim, what by day was stolen. Far from ourselves, he grows ever near to us. Our eyes once were blinded, now through him do we see. Our hands once were idle, now through them does he speak. And when the world shall listen, and when the world shall see, and when the world remembers, that world will cease to be. - Miraak
Juste Gandolphi Dark Elf Templar Daggerfall Covenant
Richter Gandolphi - Dark Elf Dragonknight Daggerfall Covenant
Mathias Gandolphi - Breton Nightblade Daggerfall Covenant
RinaldoGandolphi - High Elf Sorcerer Aldmeri Dominion
Officer Fire and Ice
Co-GM - MVP
Sorcerer's - The ONLY class in the game that is punished for using its class defining skill (Bolt Escape)
"Here in his shrine, that they have forgotten. Here do we toil, that we might remember. By night we reclaim, what by day was stolen. Far from ourselves, he grows ever near to us. Our eyes once were blinded, now through him do we see. Our hands once were idle, now through them does he speak. And when the world shall listen, and when the world shall see, and when the world remembers, that world will cease to be. - Miraak
85
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MarshWanderer✭✭✭You do know that even if ESO really did happen during a Dragon Break it still means that everything that happens is as real and canon as the main TES franchise right? Everything that happens during a Dragon Break STILL happens and affects the timeline and lore.9 -
grizzledcroc✭✭✭✭MarshWanderer wrote: »You do know that even if ESO really did happen during a Dragon Break it still means that everything that happens is as real and canon as the main TES franchise right? Everything that happens during a Dragon Break STILL happens and affects the timeline and lore.
He mentioned it in the last part.1 -
Abeille✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I HATE the "Dragon Break" excuse (the CHIM excuse too when used to explain inconsistencies).
It's a lazy cop-out, a poor narrative device, a gimmick equivalent to "coma theories" and "it was all just a dream" when it comes to bad storytelling.
I'll look for any other explanation, as absurd as it is, before accepting a Dragon Break as an explanation. This sort of cop-out irks me to no end.Edited by Abeille on June 7, 2017 2:28PMJust so that everyone knows, my Altmer still can't have black hair. About a dozen of Altmer NPCs in the game have black hair. Just saying.
Meet my characters:Command: Do the thing.
Zadarri, Khajiit Fist of Thalmor: The thing was done, as commanded.
Durza gra-Maghul, Orc blacksmith: The thing was done perfectly, in the most efficient way.
Tegwen, Bosmer troublemaker: You can't prove I didn't do the thing.
Sings-Many-Songs, Argonian fisher: Sure, I'll do the thing... Eventually. Maybe.
Aerindel, Altmer stormcaller: After extensive research, I've come to the conclusion that doing the thing would be a waste of resources.
Liliel, Dunmer pyromancer: Aerindel said I shouldn't do the thing. Something about "resources".
Gyda Snowcaller, Nord cryomancer: I will find a way to do it that won't waste resources and make Aerindel proud of me.
Beatrice Leoriane, Breton vampire: I persuaded someone else into doing the thing. You are welcome, dear.
Sahima, Redguard performer: Doing the thing sounds awfully unpleasant and really not my problem.
Ellaria Valerius, Imperial priestess: I'll pray to the Eight for the thing to be done, if it is Their will.16 -
Aliyavana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I HATE the "Dragon Break" excuse (the CHIM excuse too when used to explain inconsistencies).
It's a lazy cop-out, a poor narrative device, a gimmick equivalent to "coma theories" and "it was all just a dream" when it comes to bad storytelling.
I'll look for any other explanation, as absurd as it is, before accepting a Dragon Break as an explanation. This sort of cop-out irks me to no end.
Vivec and his mautra would like a word with you
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Abeille✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I HATE the "Dragon Break" excuse (the CHIM excuse too when used to explain inconsistencies).
It's a lazy cop-out, a poor narrative device, a gimmick equivalent to "coma theories" and "it was all just a dream" when it comes to bad storytelling.
I'll look for any other explanation, as absurd as it is, before accepting a Dragon Break as an explanation. This sort of cop-out irks me to no end.
Vivec and his mautra would like a word with you
Vivec can go eat a badly-seasoned guar. The more he is used as a story device, by fans or official material, the more I dislike him. Sotha Sil 4life.Just so that everyone knows, my Altmer still can't have black hair. About a dozen of Altmer NPCs in the game have black hair. Just saying.
Meet my characters:Command: Do the thing.
Zadarri, Khajiit Fist of Thalmor: The thing was done, as commanded.
Durza gra-Maghul, Orc blacksmith: The thing was done perfectly, in the most efficient way.
Tegwen, Bosmer troublemaker: You can't prove I didn't do the thing.
Sings-Many-Songs, Argonian fisher: Sure, I'll do the thing... Eventually. Maybe.
Aerindel, Altmer stormcaller: After extensive research, I've come to the conclusion that doing the thing would be a waste of resources.
Liliel, Dunmer pyromancer: Aerindel said I shouldn't do the thing. Something about "resources".
Gyda Snowcaller, Nord cryomancer: I will find a way to do it that won't waste resources and make Aerindel proud of me.
Beatrice Leoriane, Breton vampire: I persuaded someone else into doing the thing. You are welcome, dear.
Sahima, Redguard performer: Doing the thing sounds awfully unpleasant and really not my problem.
Ellaria Valerius, Imperial priestess: I'll pray to the Eight for the thing to be done, if it is Their will.5 -
Elsterchen✭✭✭✭✭
✭There have been some discussions about dragon break situations already, and these have been carried by ppl far more into lore then i am, so i guess they will be able to say their piece themselve.
However I like to comment on the first quote you made:
"It's good to see you again. And I do see you, in my own way. You are a wound in time, a tear in reality that shouldn't exist and cannot long endure." - The Prophet
I actually thought this relates to how the vestige (oh well, there are arguments that it might even be vestiges) have "been created" or "evolved". Basically and very roughly summarized as beeing a faulty soul shriven. This does synergize with molag bals claim to have "forged" the vestige in coldharbor (as he likes to point out at dolmens) as well as beeing a tear in reality that shouldn't exist.0 -
Rickter✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You guys should get familiar with the term: Deus Ex Machina
William Shakespeare made it popular. Dragon Break is to Elder Scrolls as the Eagles are to Lord of the Rings.
time to take a deep breath, and deal with it.
dwarven spider mount ftw.RickterESO
PC | NA | DC
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Guilds: PvP:Bloodletter | StamDK | Alliance Rank 46 | Former Emperor of Shor (2018) | Former Emperor of Thornblade #4terms (2015)PvE:vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vMA | vDSA | vMoL | ALL Vet 4 Man Dungeons11 -
RinaldoGandolphi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I HATE the "Dragon Break" excuse (the CHIM excuse too when used to explain inconsistencies).
It's a lazy cop-out, a poor narrative device, a gimmick equivalent to "coma theories" and "it was all just a dream" when it comes to bad storytelling.
I'll look for any other explanation, as absurd as it is, before accepting a Dragon Break as an explanation. This sort of cop-out irks me to no end.
The only other explanation(which i did not include here because I don't like it) is the events of ESO only occur in the Vestige's Mind because he was driven insane by the Mad God Sheogorath.(Atronach mounts looking like wolves, Sprigans looking like horses, riding around on a Dwemer spider are all things only insane people would see)
The Vestige spends far too much time with Sheogorth in ESO via the Mage's Guild line, Sheo randomly pops up in that town in Grahtwood.....no one spends that much time around Sheo, and enters the Isles as many times as he does without being driven mad....even the Shezzarine in Oblivion is eventually driven insane by Sheogorath even before he dips the Staff into the Font of Maddness....
A Dragon Break makes far more sense to me while also canoizing everything that happens in ESO. I'd rather not think the Vestige was simply driven insane by Sheogorath.....Rinaldo Gandolphi-Breton Sorcerer Daggerfall Covenant
Juste Gandolphi Dark Elf Templar Daggerfall Covenant
Richter Gandolphi - Dark Elf Dragonknight Daggerfall Covenant
Mathias Gandolphi - Breton Nightblade Daggerfall Covenant
RinaldoGandolphi - High Elf Sorcerer Aldmeri Dominion
Officer Fire and Ice
Co-GM - MVP
Sorcerer's - The ONLY class in the game that is punished for using its class defining skill (Bolt Escape)
"Here in his shrine, that they have forgotten. Here do we toil, that we might remember. By night we reclaim, what by day was stolen. Far from ourselves, he grows ever near to us. Our eyes once were blinded, now through him do we see. Our hands once were idle, now through them does he speak. And when the world shall listen, and when the world shall see, and when the world remembers, that world will cease to be. - Miraak7 -
Merlin13KAGL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭You speak as if they care 2g about lore consistency regarding the standalone games...Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...
Earn it.
IRL'ing for a while for assorted reasons, in forum, and in game.I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS3 -
KochDerDamonen✭✭✭✭✭
✭I mean, if we snip off the fat and speak out of lore...
'Dragon break' is a fancy way of saying "We don't want to be pinned to every goofy decision we make in design for every future title for all time." I faintly appreciate that there's an attempt to explain in-game why some accounts of events can be wildly different between iterations, and how it can relate to real-world history keeping and story telling. But really we know if Bethesda wishes something hadn't been made canon, they just won't use it again.
If you quote someone, and intend for them to see what you have said, be sure to Mention them with @[insert name].4 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Yes, pretty simple few records survived and nobody remember the argonian emperor "dies often" who ruled for 2 hours.I HATE the "Dragon Break" excuse (the CHIM excuse too when used to explain inconsistencies).
It's a lazy cop-out, a poor narrative device, a gimmick equivalent to "coma theories" and "it was all just a dream" when it comes to bad storytelling.
I'll look for any other explanation, as absurd as it is, before accepting a Dragon Break as an explanation. This sort of cop-out irks me to no end.
Major in game events happens, its no difference from the other games, the oblivion crisis happen even if you never did the main quest.Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.1 -
Shogunami✭✭✭✭I HATE the "Dragon Break" excuse (the CHIM excuse too when used to explain inconsistencies).
It's a lazy cop-out, a poor narrative device, a gimmick equivalent to "coma theories" and "it was all just a dream" when it comes to bad storytelling.
I'll look for any other explanation, as absurd as it is, before accepting a Dragon Break as an explanation. This sort of cop-out irks me to no end.
I hate to break it to you, no pun intended, but Dragon Breaks are a part of the ES universe.
These aren't cop outs, it's the complete other way around - they enhance the possibilities of storytelling and makes the universe more complex than it would otherwise be.
I don't blame you for disliking this, but it kind of means you are disliking The Elder Scrolls themselves.
The Elder Scrolls, the actual scrolls that the story of the games are based on, contain all of this information. That nothing is set, not the past, not the present and not the future.
I love me a good discussion about dragon breaks and CHIM. But like I said, I don't blame you if you don't.
You heretic.-
"I think Orcs first turned a bear head into food because it looks amazing." -Orzorga.12 -
Abeille✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »I HATE the "Dragon Break" excuse (the CHIM excuse too when used to explain inconsistencies).
It's a lazy cop-out, a poor narrative device, a gimmick equivalent to "coma theories" and "it was all just a dream" when it comes to bad storytelling.
I'll look for any other explanation, as absurd as it is, before accepting a Dragon Break as an explanation. This sort of cop-out irks me to no end.
The only other explanation(which i did not include here because I don't like it) is the events of ESO only occur in the Vestige's Mind because he was driven insane by the Mad God Sheogorath.(Atronach mounts looking like wolves, Sprigans looking like horses, riding around on a Dwemer spider are all things only insane people would see)
The Vestige spends far too much time with Sheogorth in ESO via the Mage's Guild line, Sheo randomly pops up in that town in Grahtwood.....no one spends that much time around Sheo, and enters the Isles as many times as he does without being driven mad....even the Shezzarine in Oblivion is eventually driven insane by Sheogorath even before he dips the Staff into the Font of Maddness....
A Dragon Break makes far more sense to me while also canoizing everything that happens in ESO. I'd rather not think the Vestige was simply driven insane by Sheogorath.....
Unreliable narrator and simple retcons.
I prefere those two to any of these explanations proposed.Just so that everyone knows, my Altmer still can't have black hair. About a dozen of Altmer NPCs in the game have black hair. Just saying.
Meet my characters:Command: Do the thing.
Zadarri, Khajiit Fist of Thalmor: The thing was done, as commanded.
Durza gra-Maghul, Orc blacksmith: The thing was done perfectly, in the most efficient way.
Tegwen, Bosmer troublemaker: You can't prove I didn't do the thing.
Sings-Many-Songs, Argonian fisher: Sure, I'll do the thing... Eventually. Maybe.
Aerindel, Altmer stormcaller: After extensive research, I've come to the conclusion that doing the thing would be a waste of resources.
Liliel, Dunmer pyromancer: Aerindel said I shouldn't do the thing. Something about "resources".
Gyda Snowcaller, Nord cryomancer: I will find a way to do it that won't waste resources and make Aerindel proud of me.
Beatrice Leoriane, Breton vampire: I persuaded someone else into doing the thing. You are welcome, dear.
Sahima, Redguard performer: Doing the thing sounds awfully unpleasant and really not my problem.
Ellaria Valerius, Imperial priestess: I'll pray to the Eight for the thing to be done, if it is Their will.1 -
EramTheLiar✭✭✭✭The Dragon Break theory is the only one that makes an mmo with thousands of players going through the same storyline at the same time fit properly into an already lore-rich world. I don't consider useful narrative devices cop outs, and this one is definitely useful.
I agree with the original post.7 -
staracino_ESO✭✭✭✭Time-altering mechanics never end well when used in conjunction with lore if the lore itself is not heavily time-travel oriented. They should not overuse this, preferably never use it again.
Also, despite "Dragon Breaks" being an established mechanic, that does not give them carte blanche to do whatever they want as far as lore goes. Keep in mind they are not the actual creators of the lore, here.4 -
Abeille✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I HATE the "Dragon Break" excuse (the CHIM excuse too when used to explain inconsistencies).
It's a lazy cop-out, a poor narrative device, a gimmick equivalent to "coma theories" and "it was all just a dream" when it comes to bad storytelling.
I'll look for any other explanation, as absurd as it is, before accepting a Dragon Break as an explanation. This sort of cop-out irks me to no end.
I hate to break it to you, no pun intended, but Dragon Breaks are a part of the ES universe.
These aren't cop outs, it's the complete other way around - they enhance the possibilities of storytelling and makes the universe more complex than it would otherwise be.
I don't blame you for disliking this, but it kind of means you are disliking The Elder Scrolls themselves.
The Elder Scrolls, the actual scrolls that the story of the games are based on, contain all of this information. That nothing is set, not the past, not the present and not the future.
I love me a good discussion about dragon breaks and CHIM. But like I said, I don't blame you if you don't.
You heretic.
I am well aware it is part of the game, you are not breaking it to me, I've been in the fandom for several years and I know the lore from inside out. Doesn't make it any less of a cop-out to justify retcons and inconsistencies. Just like if you write a story and then end it with "and then he woke up from the coma, and realized nothing actually happened" it is part of the story and still a cop-out.
Just because they introduced a story device specifically to avoid writing themselves in a corner (like with the multiple destinies of the Numidium) it doesn't mean I can close my eyes to what it really is: A gimmick to be able to get around inconsistencies. And it gets even worse if used lightly to explain every little retcons or "weirdness" in the game.
I'll stick with "unreliable narrator, retcons and gameplay devices" for explanations. And I think it is unreasonable to be mad when you find a few inconsistencies in a franchise that doesn't have only one writer.
Edited for auto-correct dumbness.Edited by Abeille on June 7, 2017 4:49PMJust so that everyone knows, my Altmer still can't have black hair. About a dozen of Altmer NPCs in the game have black hair. Just saying.
Meet my characters:Command: Do the thing.
Zadarri, Khajiit Fist of Thalmor: The thing was done, as commanded.
Durza gra-Maghul, Orc blacksmith: The thing was done perfectly, in the most efficient way.
Tegwen, Bosmer troublemaker: You can't prove I didn't do the thing.
Sings-Many-Songs, Argonian fisher: Sure, I'll do the thing... Eventually. Maybe.
Aerindel, Altmer stormcaller: After extensive research, I've come to the conclusion that doing the thing would be a waste of resources.
Liliel, Dunmer pyromancer: Aerindel said I shouldn't do the thing. Something about "resources".
Gyda Snowcaller, Nord cryomancer: I will find a way to do it that won't waste resources and make Aerindel proud of me.
Beatrice Leoriane, Breton vampire: I persuaded someone else into doing the thing. You are welcome, dear.
Sahima, Redguard performer: Doing the thing sounds awfully unpleasant and really not my problem.
Ellaria Valerius, Imperial priestess: I'll pray to the Eight for the thing to be done, if it is Their will.1 -
Elsterchen✭✭✭✭✭
✭RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »I HATE the "Dragon Break" excuse (the CHIM excuse too when used to explain inconsistencies).
It's a lazy cop-out, a poor narrative device, a gimmick equivalent to "coma theories" and "it was all just a dream" when it comes to bad storytelling.
I'll look for any other explanation, as absurd as it is, before accepting a Dragon Break as an explanation. This sort of cop-out irks me to no end.
The only other explanation(which i did not include here because I don't like it) is the events of ESO only occur in the Vestige's Mind because he was driven insane by the Mad God Sheogorath.(Atronach mounts looking like wolves, Sprigans looking like horses, riding around on a Dwemer spider are all things only insane people would see)
The Vestige spends far too much time with Sheogorth in ESO via the Mage's Guild line, Sheo randomly pops up in that town in Grahtwood.....no one spends that much time around Sheo, and enters the Isles as many times as he does without being driven mad....even the Shezzarine in Oblivion is eventually driven insane by Sheogorath even before he dips the Staff into the Font of Maddness....
A Dragon Break makes far more sense to me while also canoizing everything that happens in ESO. I'd rather not think the Vestige was simply driven insane by Sheogorath.....
Hmm, well, call me mad but I didn't do the mage guild quest line.
Point is: going nuts isn't an alternative explanation at all.
I don't think dragon break is an explanation either. Simply because of too little "breaks". Remember all those guards and NPCs around tamiriel telling you about how they hear from person xy that you defeated yz/ rescued zz/ helped yy? In any dragon break scenario the link between time and place would be broken in a way that make these small encounters impossible.2 -
Browiseth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭your effort to please and calm lorenerds is admirable, but it's a wasted effort my friendEdited by Browiseth on June 7, 2017 2:53PMskingrad when zoscharacters:PC/NA but live in EU 150+ ping lyfe- EP - M - Strikes-with-Arcane - Argonian Stamina Sorc - lvl 50 - The Flawless Conqueror/Spirit Slayer
- EP - F - Melina Elinia - Dunmer Magicka Dragonknight - lvl 50
- EP - F - Sinnia Lavellan - Altmer Warden Healer - lvl 50
- EP - M - Follows-the-Arcane - Argonian Healer Sorcerer- lvl 50
- EP - F - Ashes-of-Arcane - Argonian Magicka Necromancer - lvl 50
- EP - M - Bolgrog the Sinh - Orc Stamina Dragonknight - lvl 50
- EP - F - Moonlight Maiden - Altmer Magicka Templar - lvl 50
- EP - F - Maxine Cauline - Breton Magicka Nightblade - lvl 50
- EP - M - Garrus Loridius - Imperial Stamina Templar - lvl 50
- EP - F - Jennifer Loridius - Imperial Necromancer tank - lvl 50
1 -
StormWylf✭✭✭✭Frankly this one bows in awe of the tremendous work put into the OP, and enjoys the majority of the follow up comments. Very creative. 2 -
KeiruNicrom✭✭✭✭✭Hmm interesting....interesting indeed
Now explain using baby talk and daedric sock puppets9 -
Shogunami✭✭✭✭I'll stick with "unreliable narrator, retcons and gameplay devices" for explanations. And I think it is unreasonable to be mad when you find a few inconsistencies in a franchise that doesn't have only one writer.
Fair enough.
However, like you say the game itself doesn't only have one writer. Neither do the books in game - from which we get almost all of our information. They are written by in-world people, prone to fallacies, imperfections and opinions. We can't know if any information in TES is accurate, except that which we play through that is.Edited by Shogunami on June 7, 2017 2:59PM-
"I think Orcs first turned a bear head into food because it looks amazing." -Orzorga.1 -
KochDerDamonen✭✭✭✭✭
✭RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »I HATE the "Dragon Break" excuse (the CHIM excuse too when used to explain inconsistencies).
It's a lazy cop-out, a poor narrative device, a gimmick equivalent to "coma theories" and "it was all just a dream" when it comes to bad storytelling.
I'll look for any other explanation, as absurd as it is, before accepting a Dragon Break as an explanation. This sort of cop-out irks me to no end.
The only other explanation(which i did not include here because I don't like it) is the events of ESO only occur in the Vestige's Mind because he was driven insane by the Mad God Sheogorath.(Atronach mounts looking like wolves, Sprigans looking like horses, riding around on a Dwemer spider are all things only insane people would see)
The Vestige spends far too much time with Sheogorth in ESO via the Mage's Guild line, Sheo randomly pops up in that town in Grahtwood.....no one spends that much time around Sheo, and enters the Isles as many times as he does without being driven mad....even the Shezzarine in Oblivion is eventually driven insane by Sheogorath even before he dips the Staff into the Font of Maddness....
A Dragon Break makes far more sense to me while also canoizing everything that happens in ESO. I'd rather not think the Vestige was simply driven insane by Sheogorath.....
Unreliable narrator and simple retcons.
I prefere those two to any of these explanations proposed.
@Abeille Dragon breaks are just Unreliable Narrator + Retcon, being noticed by the people in-universe.
Edited by KochDerDamonen on June 7, 2017 3:01PMIf you quote someone, and intend for them to see what you have said, be sure to Mention them with @[insert name].7 -
Victoria_Marquis✭✭✭Lore boys/girls, just got to make you go lol. Who cares if giant space Alien star ships evades Tamrial and we have Gundams with Laser guns.
If it makes the game fun to play, and more quest. Let's do it!!
Lore is for the weak minded sheeple. Closed minded fools.... Think out side the box, and if your a fringe walker we question if the box even exists at all.
Temporal rifts makes life fun, what is true, what is real... Is reality not just a perspective to the observers, yet another observer may precieve a different experience of reality?
Nothing true,.... Everything is permitted.Edited by Victoria_Marquis on June 7, 2017 3:07PM1 -
Abeille✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭KochDerDamonen wrote: »RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »I HATE the "Dragon Break" excuse (the CHIM excuse too when used to explain inconsistencies).
It's a lazy cop-out, a poor narrative device, a gimmick equivalent to "coma theories" and "it was all just a dream" when it comes to bad storytelling.
I'll look for any other explanation, as absurd as it is, before accepting a Dragon Break as an explanation. This sort of cop-out irks me to no end.
The only other explanation(which i did not include here because I don't like it) is the events of ESO only occur in the Vestige's Mind because he was driven insane by the Mad God Sheogorath.(Atronach mounts looking like wolves, Sprigans looking like horses, riding around on a Dwemer spider are all things only insane people would see)
The Vestige spends far too much time with Sheogorth in ESO via the Mage's Guild line, Sheo randomly pops up in that town in Grahtwood.....no one spends that much time around Sheo, and enters the Isles as many times as he does without being driven mad....even the Shezzarine in Oblivion is eventually driven insane by Sheogorath even before he dips the Staff into the Font of Maddness....
A Dragon Break makes far more sense to me while also canoizing everything that happens in ESO. I'd rather not think the Vestige was simply driven insane by Sheogorath.....
Unreliable narrator and simple retcons.
I prefere those two to any of these explanations proposed.
@Abeille Dragon breaks are just Unreliable Narrator + Retcon, being noticed by the people in-universe.
More like "retcons+gameplay elements". Unreliable narrators are part of any realistic story, including our own world's :P
To me, that is like the NPCs saying "oh hey I see you got some sweet bonus stats from that gear". Gameplay is gameplay, lore is lore, there is no need to use the second to explain the first.I'll stick with "unreliable narrator, retcons and gameplay devices" for explanations. And I think it is unreasonable to be mad when you find a few inconsistencies in a franchise that doesn't have only one writer.
Fair enough.
However, like you say the game itself doesn't only have one writer. Neither do the books in game - from which we get almost all of our information. They are written by in-world people, prone to fallacies, imperfections and opinions. We can't know if any information in TES is accurate, except that which we play through that is.
Absolutely agree, and I pull that card every single time someone says some book "proves" something is wrong. I love the use of the Unreliable Narrator because it actually makes the story and the world more realistic. Books are written by NPCs with opinions and biases, something made very clear by some of the books too.Edited by Abeille on June 7, 2017 3:11PMJust so that everyone knows, my Altmer still can't have black hair. About a dozen of Altmer NPCs in the game have black hair. Just saying.
Meet my characters:Command: Do the thing.
Zadarri, Khajiit Fist of Thalmor: The thing was done, as commanded.
Durza gra-Maghul, Orc blacksmith: The thing was done perfectly, in the most efficient way.
Tegwen, Bosmer troublemaker: You can't prove I didn't do the thing.
Sings-Many-Songs, Argonian fisher: Sure, I'll do the thing... Eventually. Maybe.
Aerindel, Altmer stormcaller: After extensive research, I've come to the conclusion that doing the thing would be a waste of resources.
Liliel, Dunmer pyromancer: Aerindel said I shouldn't do the thing. Something about "resources".
Gyda Snowcaller, Nord cryomancer: I will find a way to do it that won't waste resources and make Aerindel proud of me.
Beatrice Leoriane, Breton vampire: I persuaded someone else into doing the thing. You are welcome, dear.
Sahima, Redguard performer: Doing the thing sounds awfully unpleasant and really not my problem.
Ellaria Valerius, Imperial priestess: I'll pray to the Eight for the thing to be done, if it is Their will.4 -
Avran_Sylt✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm not a lore guy. I like numbers. Numbers alone have their own beauty, but lore intertwined with numbers sets a very interesting play in motion.
Thanks for posting this and I'm glad i caught it, especially the part where it was mentioned that the vestige was "forged" by Molag Bal.
Now I can more easily intertwine the idea of player chosen character passives (how the vestige was forged) to racial passives (what the vestige was forged from). This unpolished turd is what I'm referring too.Edited by Avran_Sylt on June 7, 2017 3:24PM1 -
Elsterchen✭✭✭✭✭
✭Avran_Sylt wrote: »I'm not a lore guy. I like numbers. Numbers alone have their own beauty, but lore intertwined with numbers sets a very interesting play in motion.
Thanks for posting this and I'm glad i caught it, especially the part where it was mentioned that the vestige was "forged" by Molag Bal.
Now I can more easily intertwine the idea of player chosen character passives (how the vestige was forged) to racial passives (what the vestige was forged from). This unpolished turd is what I'm referring too.
Not sure how this could be related to numbers,tbh and not much of a mystic ... but you might find some more interesting stuff here https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/274279/what-exactly-is-a-vestige
have fun2
