Talon_Draconis wrote: »

I am thing hard weather if I am going to keep subbing ESO plus
Morrowind is DLC should be free with the sub or at least available with crowns!
While I think ESO is the best MMO out there right now I really can't support there marketing strategy
As far as the ESO plus the only thing that has any real value is the bag and access to dlc now they are calling DLC expantions and using that as a excuse for a cash grab
With the $50 dollars they want for morrowind I could get whole other game
Crowns are useless except to buy dlc there is nothing worth buying in the store.
I assume Morrowind will eventually become available once zmax squeezes as much cash as it can from players
I find this detestable and makes me want to not renew my sub in protest!
I hope that zmax corrects this asp and puts Morrowind as regular dlc which it is ! and does not repeat this blatant cash grab again!

Its not a DLC, that will never happen. It will likely be free when you buy next years chapter. If a business making money is a problem for you, no other MMO is for you. They all have required expansions.

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

kunquatb16_ESO wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

kunquatb16_ESO wrote: »

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Talon_Draconis wrote: »

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Could anyone explain me what exactly is a cash grab? Do you just mean pricing a product at the most profitable cost, i really don't understand. If it's so, well then, that's just what companies do, you know.

It's a cash grab plain and simple not allowing us to buy it with crowns and calling it a chapter so we will be forced to pay cash for the content witch we should have gotten with our sub

Why do you feel you should have gotten anything? Zos develops products and is entitle to commerce them any way they want. You paid for a service, the sub, and was rightufly delivered. I fail to see your point.

You can surely disagree with marketing tactics, but that's nothing but an opinion.

I made a thread making precisely that point, they do have that right.

The point is, is it a good decision long term, should they listen to players, who by buying crowns and subscriptions have help fund their development of Morrowind?

If the feedback is mostly negative regarding it's exclusion from ESO+ and the crownstore, should they reverse that decision? even though they have the right not too?

The revenue from the expansion will speak loudest. That is the most significant feedback Zos will receive on this change. It's always what a business uses as a key barometer for changes like this.

Therefore, players opting out of subscribing, or buying crowns is important, as the effect could end up outweighing the profit margin from not including it on the crownstore, or ESO+.

The more that say the way they are doing it isn't good, and opt out in order to offset the costs, which Zos can see, the more likely they are to change how they do things.

Your point actively confirms the relevance of this thread.

The purchase of crowns are. If very relevant, only to a small degree.

The measurements that will be most looked at will be the number of players who sub and those who have purchased most of the DLCs to see how many of those two groups purchase the expansion. A second group will also be heavily looked at and that's the PvP that do not sub or purchase expansions and other active players that make similar decisions.

In the end, if a high number of the first group and a decent number of the second group purchase the expansion within 30-90 days from today it would be considered a successful route to take. Of course the results could run counter to that presumption. But this is the voice that actually says this patch is good or not.

So, in the end, this thread has relevance ic and only if sales are a disappointment. Well, the thread is still relevant if sales are a success since it would demonstrate the forum treads do no accurately show the player base views on the subject.

In the end sales, if the lack of, is the loudest voice we have. Zos thinks so, my employer thinks so and your employer agrees. It's why we get a paycheck that permits us to pay for these silly things.

We've large come to a point of agreement. Customers loudest voice is in opting out of subscribing and crown purchases. Short term profitability isn't in the long term best, if long term profitability from subscribers and crown purchases outweighs it.

Getting people to start subscribing is far harder than keeping them subscribing.

Mephisto939 wrote: »

Drachenfier wrote: »

It's not the Money is the way zmax is treating us....calling dlc a explanation it should have been included with the sub and available in the crown store just like any other xpack

lol

you sound like someone that's never had a real problem before.

No he sounds like someone who believes in principle. Whether someone is cheating you for $5 or $500, you are being cheated either way.

it is not being cheated if both parties are adhering to their agreements.

Since you agreed they could change anything at any time and they gave you 6 months notice more or less, they have not violated anything nor cheated.

What they did was change the terms as you gave them permission to do.

That is not cheating...

that is following the rules.

Cheating = breaking the rules

Not cheating = changing the rules by agreed upon process

It doesn't seem to be that complex.

Well, you can take a break and try blade and soul. It has pretty good graphics and combat system but you will hit a pay wall at lvl 30. But 30 lvls of questing and combat for free isn't that bad. I take breaks from mmos all the time although I imagine I will be playing eso for a while because I have a good set up and it has the best graphics. As far as playing another mmo for the end game you missed the bus. WoW is exhausted and decadent. Rift is exhausted and decadent. Those were both 100+ day playtime mmos in their prime. Guild wars 2 was ruined by ideas from players e.g. the idea of turning WvW into a gear grind because everything else had a gear grind making mass slaughter fests the norm and objectives some thing on the map where a mass slaughter fest may be coordinated.

Expansions in games with subs isn't something new. WOTLK was an expansion you had to buy even if you had a sub. I suppose the question you should be asking is if I sub for long enough shouldn't I get all these dlcs anyways since I paid more for my sub then buying ESO gold.

Also Morrowind is called a chapter. Who knows they might add more to it. Why not? That is what normally happens for expansions.

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

Expansions in games with subs isn't something new. WOTLK was an expansion you had to buy even if you had a sub. I suppose the question you should be asking is if I sub for long enough shouldn't I get all these dlcs anyways since I paid more for my sub then buying ESO gold.

But you didn't... You were immediately refunded in an equivalent amount of ESO gold.
You paid exactly as much as buying ESO gold, and got the content at no additional cost (aside from the game purchase price; have to mention it or some other pedant will).

It's like walking into a Walmart, buying a $15 shirt, and them handing you a coupon for $15 in store credit as a thank you. You still get the shirt, -and- can buy more stuff.

"...for long enough..." != equivalent amount of eso gold.

That statement doesn't make much sense logically so...(because identity and equivalence are not the same)

I mean subbing for a value 2x or greater the value of eso gold. I don't sub because I can simply but the dlcs whenever I want and they are mine forever. The sub should be worth it to the person who subs since it isn't mandatory to play the game. Maybe the pot should be sweetened. If you subbed for such and such a period of time maybe should should get something extra with the purchase of morrowind. What that is I don't know and I don't care. A hotdog. A t-shirt from Walmart.

Ruckly wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

Expansions in games with subs isn't something new. WOTLK was an expansion you had to buy even if you had a sub. I suppose the question you should be asking is if I sub for long enough shouldn't I get all these dlcs anyways since I paid more for my sub then buying ESO gold.

But you didn't... You were immediately refunded in an equivalent amount of ESO gold.
You paid exactly as much as buying ESO gold, and got the content at no additional cost (aside from the game purchase price; have to mention it or some other pedant will).

It's like walking into a Walmart, buying a $15 shirt, and them handing you a coupon for $15 in store credit as a thank you. You still get the shirt, -and- can buy more stuff.

"...for long enough..." != equivalent amount of eso gold.

That statement doesn't make much sense logically so...(because identity and equivalence are not the same)

I mean subbing for a value 2x or greater the value of eso gold. I don't sub because I can simply but the dlcs whenever I want and they are mine forever. The sub should be worth it to the person who subs since it isn't mandatory to play the game. Maybe the pot should be sweetened. If you subbed for such and such a period of time maybe should should get something extra with the purchase of morrowind. What that is I don't know and I don't care. A hotdog. A t-shirt from Walmart.

I think the longer you consecutively sub the more crowns /month

Is there a suck it up and pay option?

Jesus man its $40 for an EXPANSHUUUUN (yes expansions are really real....)NOT A DLC

Some of you need to get jobs so you can afford gaming. It's like you think they wave a magic wand that absorbes the cost of creating massive new content.

Personally, I kind of felt this was an enhanced DLC, but I'm not really regretting paying the full price for it as an "expansion". But my reason is a bit different than how others probably see it. I see my investment as a long term investment in the game, in that I want it to continue and to continue building more and more content. It's why I subscribe, and it's why I will buy things from time to time from the Crown store. I have disposable income to do so, and if the game continues being worthwhile, I will support it. Right now, I'm starting to fall on that fence myself, but it's only because the lag is getting really bad for me in the game (but isn't bad in any other game I play). If that continues, I'll probably have to leave, but it won't be because of anything the designers have done badly in the design of the game.

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

Expansions in games with subs isn't something new. WOTLK was an expansion you had to buy even if you had a sub. I suppose the question you should be asking is if I sub for long enough shouldn't I get all these dlcs anyways since I paid more for my sub then buying ESO gold.

But you didn't... You were immediately refunded in an equivalent amount of ESO gold.
You paid exactly as much as buying ESO gold, and got the content at no additional cost (aside from the game purchase price; have to mention it or some other pedant will).

It's like walking into a Walmart, buying a $15 shirt, and them handing you a coupon for $15 in store credit as a thank you. You still get the shirt, -and- can buy more stuff.

"...for long enough..." != equivalent amount of eso gold.

What I'm saying is...

I did the math a long time ago (might be different now), but if you actually add up the amount of bonus crowns gained over the course of a constant subscription, you end up with more than enough to purchase all the DLC. So in effect, if you used your bonus crowns to buy the DLC, then you -have- gotten the DLC for keeps as a benefit of subscribing long enough.

Does that make sense?

I'm going to take a break and read a book . Two months subscription I think comes out around the same cost as eso gold. Four months subscription would give you enough crowns to buy all the expansions included in eso gold. So the math is a bit more complicated. The point you make is valid. I'll leave you with two questions.

1. Who is the most important person in your business?
2. What is the value of a repeat customer?

Ruckly wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Ruckly wrote: »

Expansions in games with subs isn't something new. WOTLK was an expansion you had to buy even if you had a sub. I suppose the question you should be asking is if I sub for long enough shouldn't I get all these dlcs anyways since I paid more for my sub then buying ESO gold.

But you didn't... You were immediately refunded in an equivalent amount of ESO gold.
You paid exactly as much as buying ESO gold, and got the content at no additional cost (aside from the game purchase price; have to mention it or some other pedant will).

It's like walking into a Walmart, buying a $15 shirt, and them handing you a coupon for $15 in store credit as a thank you. You still get the shirt, -and- can buy more stuff.

"...for long enough..." != equivalent amount of eso gold.

What I'm saying is...

I did the math a long time ago (might be different now), but if you actually add up the amount of bonus crowns gained over the course of a constant subscription, you end up with more than enough to purchase all the DLC. So in effect, if you used your bonus crowns to buy the DLC, then you -have- gotten the DLC for keeps as a benefit of subscribing long enough.

Does that make sense?

I'm going to take a break and read a book . Two months subscription I think comes out around the same cost as eso gold. Four months subscription would give you enough crowns to buy all the expansions included in eso gold. So the math is a bit more complicated. The point you make is valid. I'll leave you with two questions.

1. Who is the most important person in your business?
2. What is the value of a repeat customer?

I see why we're misunderstanding each other now...

When you said "ESO gold" I thought you were referring to Crowns (using "gold" as a generic term for cash-store currency), but what you meant was "ESO Gold Edition." I gotcha now.

Talon_Draconis wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Quick math check...

If you sub for 3 years (36 months) you come out to 54,000 Crowns.
If you buy all the DLC to date, you end up with (no joke) 43,000 crowns left over.

That's almost 29 months worth of bonus crowns left over to just buy whatever with.
Christ, what did I do with them all? lol

Well I have all the Dlc and still have 9500 but I only been playing subing since it came out last year on the xbone
Like I said I was satisfied with my sub and very happy to give them my $20 /month
But the way they are handling Morrowind has made me angry and thinking of unsubbing for a few months to pay for it
And I still feel betrayed by zmax

I know I've been "defending" ZOS but I totally understand where you're coming from. If I was under the impression that I wan't going to have to pay for more content ever again, this would feel like a betrayal. If I was sitting on enough Crowns to pay for a large DLC with the intent to pay for it when it came out, that would feel like money misspent.

So, yeah, I totally get it, and I've been encouraging people to unsub for a time to break even; if that's how they feel. That's a totally reasonable reaction.

But, like I said before in the other thread, I've been playing MMOs for a long time, I'm accustomed to paying a subscription and I've long since learned that the gaming industry is just a little too volatile to put too much stock in long-term, developer "promises." Things change, that's why the TOS exists, to cover their ass when the inevitable occurs.

Yeah, it's a bummer... When I started playing this game one of the appeals was that it was subscription only, and I didn't have to deal with the kind of things that come with free-to-play games; I'd had enough of it by then. Then the game went subscription optional and I was left having to decide whether or not I liked this game and this digital world well enough to stick around and deal with the crap that inevitably comes with such a change. I think ZOS has handled it as gracefully as they could, and they're dealing with a hell of a juggling act trying to keep both populations happy without going pay-to-win.

But the fact is, when a certain percentage of your population doesn't pay, that money has to come from somewhere. One time initial purchase money only takes you so far, and Crown store purchases may not make up for it. So the question is, do you raise the subscription cost? Jack up Crown store prices even higher (I think they're about at the ceiling of what people will tolerate) or release new content with an actual price tag?

Admittedly, ESO is probably one of the more expensive games on the market if you're actually buying stuff, but that's -because- there are so many players who do not.

"Vote with your wallet," that's what they say, right?

kunquatb16_ESO wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Quick math check...

If you sub for 3 years (36 months) you come out to 54,000 Crowns.
If you buy all the DLC to date, you end up with (no joke) 43,000 crowns left over.

That's almost 29 months worth of bonus crowns left over to just buy whatever with.
Christ, what did I do with them all? lol

I can tell you, you definitely didn't use them to buy Morrowind...

I've also spent a lot of mine, mostly outfits and mounts.

Yeah, I bought some outfits, no mounts... Some motifs, a house, couple of character slots... it adds up.

Dude have you ever played another mmo?

Most the time your sub only LET'S YOU PLAY. Here they give you Crowns, access DLC, craft bag, etc.
Seriously this is just how they work. Be happy they give you all that.