NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

A large amount of threads for over two years complain, suggest, discuss and even detail interesting realities about the character levels.
One Tamriel sought to open up the game and made it a lot more accessible.

I find it odd that character levels 1-49 and Champion point as a level indicator still exist.
Follow me....


If from level 1-49 you're scaled and If from CP1-150 you're scaled (not exact) why not simplify the system as ZOS shares that lag comes from Cp calculations. Does that also apply to scaling 1-49 with CP?


Suggestion
-remove character levels 1-50
-remove CP level indicators entirely
-remove health, Magic, Stamina stat points entirely (place those on gear instead but allow those to be changed ingame via enchanting or crafting)
-Keep skill line level progression but instead of 1-50, make it 1-66......and when Level cap is raised....67-X
-Crafting would align by potency of the stats crafted and nodes would be zone based
-*Remove classes from character creation selection and input them into the world under some new Spell Crafting concepts (keep all the skills tho)

This simplifies so much but retains the base concepts
Beyond there you'll have true progression that's not confusing

You want it to be like Skyrim. To bad this is a MMORPG, and not a simple RPG like Skyrim etc. So your demands will never be met as they are impossible to maintain in an ever changing enviroment that is ESO (or any MMORPG).

Huyen wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

A large amount of threads for over two years complain, suggest, discuss and even detail interesting realities about the character levels.
One Tamriel sought to open up the game and made it a lot more accessible.

I find it odd that character levels 1-49 and Champion point as a level indicator still exist.
Follow me....


If from level 1-49 you're scaled and If from CP1-150 you're scaled (not exact) why not simplify the system as ZOS shares that lag comes from Cp calculations. Does that also apply to scaling 1-49 with CP?


Suggestion
-remove character levels 1-50
-remove CP level indicators entirely
-remove health, Magic, Stamina stat points entirely (place those on gear instead but allow those to be changed ingame via enchanting or crafting)
-Keep skill line level progression but instead of 1-50, make it 1-66......and when Level cap is raised....67-X
-Crafting would align by potency of the stats crafted and nodes would be zone based
-*Remove classes from character creation selection and input them into the world under some new Spell Crafting concepts (keep all the skills tho)

This simplifies so much but retains the base concepts
Beyond there you'll have true progression that's not confusing

You want it to be like Skyrim. To bad this is a MMORPG, and not a simple RPG like Skyrim etc. So your demands will never be met as they are impossible to maintain in an ever changing enviroment that is ESO (or any MMORPG).

@Huyen

MMORPG - in short is a role playing game on a server that can host hundreds or thousands of players at once.

Nothing about that forces a game type

I do follow the context that MMORPG is often used to convey certain gameplay experiences and elements, but why wouldn't you want different games to exist differently?

What ideas are impossible?
It's removing things that ZOS says cause lag and offering things player feedback suggests but in a KISS way.

I'd argue that's it's not Skyrim like. It's just a more open system keeping the base and logic that I think we all enjoy.

Right?

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Do you honestly think a game wide overhaul like this is reasonable or feasible? Two years into release? I'm mean look at the rage-quits and pushback (yourself included) when they adjusted systems for Morrowind.

What you've proposed, or any other change as drastic will never happen. They're going to keep tinkering with CP until they (hopefully) get it right (or just better). The audience is too large and ingrained now. At best, they'll do a "reboot" in 5 years once attrition sets in.

As well, basing progression solely on gear is what every other game is doing. I like how ESO at least tries to differentiate themselves.

@Peekachu99

Feasible....

Was it feasible to make everything One Tamriel?
Um, bringing the CP rank of outdated content (DSA, for example) was indeed necessary and feasible.
Was it feasible to change VR to CP?
Yes, and it's just a remapping of horizontal progression, rather than VR ranks or an entirely new system (game) as you've proposed.
Was it feasible to remove entire parts of the CP tree?
Part of development is getting rid of things that aren't working/ up to par. It's called pruning, and every online game does it. You can't not do this kind of system maintenance or you end up with a million broken, useless features (insert ZoS joke here, I suppose)
Was it feasible to remove the sub?
Was it feasible to not allow Chapters count under eso Plus or crowns?
Was it feasible to sale homes for $25-$99 each?
Was it feasible to add a class you said you wouldn't add early on and didn't add later as it would disrupt progression?
All that is just ranting and has nothing to do with game design.

I'd argue that as another commented....the hole dug is extremely deep. May as well cause it's only getting deeper on their current path

As usual you're conflating a bunch of issues that shouldn't be combined. Payment models and game design, for one. While one certainly influences the other, you're trying to addresss game design in this post then adding a bunch of irate nonsense into your argument, which only muddies whatever case you're trying to make.

But anway, as we both know, you'll think what you want and continue to post wordy replies and retorts to everyone who doesn't share your world view. So have fun with that.

@Huyen

Separate thought on progressions if classes stay

In many MMORPG games, you don't just get spells and abilities. It comes with doing this or that and going back to the class trainer and embarking upon a quest to unlock more.

I think that's missing

What's exists is more of a TES just run around and never be involved with someone in the game (NPC) but get new skills out of pooof no where.

My perspective at least

Huyen wrote: »

@NewBlacksmurf : If you want more choices along the way I can only agree.

But changing the way classes behave isnt really an option. You need a basis to start the game with. And every class so far is capable of using any weapon, and any armor-type. Without classes balancing will become even worse in the end, as there is no baseline to have a nill-pointer.

And most of all lets not forget that is really hard to come up with something new when everything has been done before.

Regarding the lore: they explained it a lot of times on the forums why its different then usual.

@Huyen
I agree that you need a basis to start the game with. I'm not trying to solve for that, just wanted to add in a suggestion that wasn't my original post into my OP.

I disagree that without classes balancing becomes even worse because in the design, no class is limited to any role or weapon and armor setup.

Coming up with something new....I believe that part has already been established.
As I recall upon initially playing from scratch, from the jail, you use to choose a weapon and that's where I believe the "starting something new exists and works".

I can foresee the "class" or "skills" being involved as such. But at the character creation screen....no. Perhaps between the first choice and levels 5-10, yes. That's if we are going to keep it locked down.

But then would you align all those class skills or maybe one skill line of the three and this is where you could build in more freedom with a risk and reward. Definitely needs a reset option but just me thinking .....again...the class this isn't my idea

CromulentForumID wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Just open up every single Class Skill to every character, let us apply our acquired Skill points into any Class Skill Line that we choose, and we get to craft our own "Class" through the allotment of Skill Points into the Skills that we desire.

Whether CP's stay or go... I'm neither "here nor there" on the subject. If CP's went away, I doubt I'd notice. After the abortive Morrowind Update, CP allotment has become trivial anyway. So CP's could stay or go, and I wouldn't even blink an eye.

But remove "Classes".

Open up all of the possible Skill lines and make them available to every player equally. Let the Player choose where/when to spend Skill Points, and let them craft their own "Class" that best fits their desires for their character.

That would be true freedom in this MMO.

They can't balance the game with restrictions. You want them to try to balance without them?

You can't ignore balance in a game with PVP.

There won't ever be any type of "balance" under the current system with all of the restrictions provided for by "Classes", and having the Skill Lines divided up among that very same Class structure. This division, by its very nature, creates far too many variables for there to ever be "balance" in ESO as everything stands right now.

To be fair, there isn't a single MMORPG on the planet that has "true balance" among the various Classes in their individual games. There's MMO's where the Devs got close to having balance; but in every MMORPG, there's always going to be the various "Meta" or "FotM" builds. There will always be BiS gear. There will always be those 1-6 "top-tier end-game" character builds.

But this thread is about much more than just end-game, L33t players or PvP balance.

And to be honest; if you remove the Class restrictions, then the Devs only have to worry about balancing the individual Skill Lines so that each Skill Line is reasonably "balanced" when placed in comparison to the others.

In this way, with my suggestion of having "Open Skill Lines for all Characters, Craft your own Class as you see fit"; we wouldn't have to worry about "DK's are supposed to be Tanks", or "Templars are supposed to be Healers", or "Sorcs are supposed to be DPS".

You would still have the combat roles that are nigh-uniform among most every MMORPG in existence (Tank, Healer, DPS, Support, etc.), but you'd have the freedom of choice from all of the available Skill Trees in order to craft just the right character for the desired role that you want to fill.

Hybrid characters? Easily and much more viable under my suggestion than with the current 5-Class set-up, where (just by the very core design of the "Classes") certain Classes are all-but forced into cookie-cutter Roles, and to try to force a Class outside of those design elements is to severely limit the effectiveness of that character.

What I've suggested opens up the entirety of ESO to be a very social, but also very personal way to build a character, in order to get the exact ESO/MMORPG experience that one might be looking for. And the current "Class" restrictions prevent not only the Player from getting the most potential out of the game, but also prevents ESO from fully realizing it's own potential.

Now, if your comment stems from a PvP "balance" concern; then you need to know that it isn't the Skill Lines that are causing the balance issues in PvP. Not at all.

It's having the very restrictions of having "Character Classes" at all, plus the ability to bring in your own Crafted/Looted PvE equipment into PvP that are causing the balance issues.

FPS games have very well balanced PvP, and with only a very small margin of variation, because of uniform equipment and zero character development. Those few FPS's that do have minimal "Character Building" tools (i.e. Destiny, Call of Duty, Overwatch, etc.); those games are still infinitely easier to balance due to the severe limitations on character diversity, equipment diversity, and almost non-existent character skill sets.

But this is an MMORPG; and as long as ZOS keeps the restrictions of "Class" on the characters in this game, and allows characters to bring their own PvE equipment into Cyrodiil/Battlegrounds, there will NEVER be any type of even close balance in the PvP side of the game.

But my suggestion of opening all of the available Skill Lines to Players, and letting them allot Skill Points into any Skill Line as that Player sees fit (thus allowing you to create your own "Class" and craft just the very Hero that you want), will only make "balancing" in this game easier on ZOS.

No, I completely disagree with you.

My suggestion would not only open up the full potential of ESO; but would also satisfy the desires of the SP-Elder Scrolls fan, while fulfilling the desires of a good many MMORPG Veterans and new Players, who want to create their own Hero to their own exacting specifications, without being uncomfortably shoe-horned into a specific "Class Role" like the current system forces on Players.

Take a minute and actually think about the possibilities that would open up in this game under my suggestion, and you'll realize how badly the current "Classes" restrict and hamstring this game.

I agree.

As long as there is some form of Player Choice and Free Will in building a character, there won't ever be "balance".

It's like Gamers have lost the ability to actually build a Character. But they expect any/every character build to be equally good at all roles, regardless of the Skills chosen and/or equipment worn.

There's no MMORPG that has ever existed (or will ever exist) that allows all character builds to be equally effective in all possible Roles/situations. You can build a DPS that can act as a part-time Healer/Tank/Support role. OR you can build a Tank that can part-time Heal/Support/DPS. You can even build a pure Hybrid character that is partially good at 2-3 different Roles, but will never be as good as a "Pure" build for a specific Role. But listening/reading the "we n33d BALUNSS NAU!!!" posts, that's exactly what they expect when they cry out for "balance": to be equally good at any/all Roles at any/all times and situations.

That simply doesn't exist, but if you read the comments from people who want perfect balance, that's exactly what they expect.

The sheer thought of what they want is ludicrous.

... nah

... nah

I really hope they don't do this. Leave CP as it is

Maybe I was too simplistic in my answer. The main reason I like CP points its because you can keep track of your progress and your level. I love to see my character slowly leveling up and reaching higher numbers. I'd be fine if CP passives were changed and or skills removed. Not having a track on my level tough or having a "level cap" would suck out a great portion of the joy of progression to me. One thing that makes me really like ESO is the fact that due to the CP system we don't have a level cap

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Franieck wrote: »

Maybe I was too simplistic in my answer. The main reason I like CP points its because you can keep track of your progress and your level. I love to see my character slowly leveling up and reaching higher numbers. I'd be fine if CP passives were changed and or skills removed. Not having a track on my level tough or having a "level cap" would suck out a great portion of the joy of progression to me. One thing that makes me really like ESO is the fact that due to the CP system we don't have a level cap

@Franieck
So it wouldn't keep a progression feel if your gear was progressing by level instead of a character where gear is interchangeable between anyone on your account?

yes, because the gear is just something my character uses. I like to feel like my character has progressed, not his gear. Besides, if I want to change the looks of my character I would have to change gears, would I then lose my "progress"? only if we had a transmog system i can see this turning somewhat "OKish", and even then I bet ZOS would want to charge us for transmog stones/consumables or whatever. I wouldn't want to see this implemented this way.... On the other hand, if all the stats came from gear level progression but we could keep our CPS (kinda having two progression systems), I would welcome the idea.

If zeni opens up classes so you can make your own, theyd have to get rid of all the worthless skills they have and put new advantages on skills so people use them. Otherwise, everyone will use the best damage nullifier, heal and damagers with an occasional fun skill like teleport strike in the mix. I dont see zeni doing the right thing and implementing this. We cant even get transmog lol.

Triumviri wrote: »

Yea they won't open up the skill lines for all classes. All that would do is make the one super template and that's it all other skills deemed useless would never see the light of day.

The classes are not a bad idea its just when you have pvp some skills become op while others are selective or ignored. They should just make overland as hard as it use to be be right after beta when if you pulled 3 mobs you worked hard to even live.

This would cause a change. I liked it a bit before this change during beta when it was even harder but it wasn't too hard it just required that you actually pay attention to what NPCs were doing like players do on boss fights.

Non boss NPCs hurt like noses and that was good