I def. follow you and like some of these idea- but I don't like change -_-

At this point if they did something like flat our remove CP I'd probably ragequit and feel like I lost 3 years of progress.

And removing the 1-50 allocation points is a bad idea... especially sticking them on gear... you will be shoehorning people even more than they already are.

Just open up every single Class Skill to every character, let us apply our acquired Skill points into any Class Skill Line that we choose, and we get to craft our own "Class" through the allotment of Skill Points into the Skills that we desire.

Whether CP's stay or go... I'm neither "here nor there" on the subject. If CP's went away, I doubt I'd notice. After the abortive Morrowind Update, CP allotment has become trivial anyway. So CP's could stay or go, and I wouldn't even blink an eye.

But remove "Classes".

Open up all of the possible Skill lines and make them available to every player equally. Let the Player choose where/when to spend Skill Points, and let them craft their own "Class" that best fits their desires for their character.

That would be true freedom in this MMO.

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Just open up every single Class Skill to every character, let us apply our acquired Skill points into any Class Skill Line that we choose, and we get to craft our own "Class" through the allotment of Skill Points into the Skills that we desire.

Whether CP's stay or go... I'm neither "here nor there" on the subject. If CP's went away, I doubt I'd notice. After the abortive Morrowind Update, CP allotment has become trivial anyway. So CP's could stay or go, and I wouldn't even blink an eye.

But remove "Classes".

Open up all of the possible Skill lines and make them available to every player equally. Let the Player choose where/when to spend Skill Points, and let them craft their own "Class" that best fits their desires for their character.

That would be true freedom in this MMO.

@Uriel_Nocturne

I'd be open to removing class selection upon character creation IF and only IF....

Follow me...
Spell crafting was introduced and within that system, the class skill lines were there instead


I'm open to it tho

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Just open up every single Class Skill to every character, let us apply our acquired Skill points into any Class Skill Line that we choose, and we get to craft our own "Class" through the allotment of Skill Points into the Skills that we desire.

Whether CP's stay or go... I'm neither "here nor there" on the subject. If CP's went away, I doubt I'd notice. After the abortive Morrowind Update, CP allotment has become trivial anyway. So CP's could stay or go, and I wouldn't even blink an eye.

But remove "Classes".

Open up all of the possible Skill lines and make them available to every player equally. Let the Player choose where/when to spend Skill Points, and let them craft their own "Class" that best fits their desires for their character.

That would be true freedom in this MMO.

@Uriel_Nocturne

I'd be open to removing class selection upon character creation IF and only IF....

Follow me...
Spell crafting was introduced and within that system, the class skill lines were there instead


I'm open to it tho

I'd be down with that.

I've wanted Spell Crafting since the Beta for this game, and it saddens me that it's nowhere on ZOS's development schedule. ZOS has simply given up on adding it in it seems, and that's just a huge blow to the game for me.

But in lieu of getting spell crafting in a more proper fashion, I would be willing to have a "Spell Crafting" Skill line, that simply opened up every regular "Class Skill" tree to development by any character.

I guess I could settle for that.

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Just open up every single Class Skill to every character, let us apply our acquired Skill points into any Class Skill Line that we choose, and we get to craft our own "Class" through the allotment of Skill Points into the Skills that we desire.

Whether CP's stay or go... I'm neither "here nor there" on the subject. If CP's went away, I doubt I'd notice. After the abortive Morrowind Update, CP allotment has become trivial anyway. So CP's could stay or go, and I wouldn't even blink an eye.

But remove "Classes".

Open up all of the possible Skill lines and make them available to every player equally. Let the Player choose where/when to spend Skill Points, and let them craft their own "Class" that best fits their desires for their character.

That would be true freedom in this MMO.

They can't balance the game with restrictions. You want them to try to balance without them?

You can't ignore balance in a game with PVP.

Well, part of the issue I think with spell crafting is how they are currently handling resource regen. Prior to the Stat stacking meta that arose, I think they wanted to have hybrid builds be the meta. But since weapons determine how fast you can regain resources (stam or mag based on weapon type heavy attack), you'd have to significantly sacrifice damage in order to gain sustain or slot a staff and sacrifice an additional 5 piece to regain magicka.

It's something I'll continue hounding on, but I really think that substantial resource regen should be tied with momentarily pausing your usage of a particular resource pool. Such that not running, using a stamina ability allows you to regain stamina at a faster rate, and not casting spells allows you to regain magicka at a faster rate. Such that regen sets will still shine on allowing continuous use of a resource pool, but you'll no longer be restricted to solely stam or mag and heavy attacks. mixing up resource pool usage and a seperation from a weapon type requirement would really allow for hybrids to be strong as well as freeing up slots for created spells that have utility for stamina users, as well as allowing magicka users to fall back on stamina based skills if the need arises (Battlemage).

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Well, part of the issue I think with spell crafting is how they are currently handling resource regen. Prior to the Stat stacking meta that arose, I think they wanted to have hybrid builds be the meta. But since weapons determine how fast you can regain resources (stam or mag based on weapon type heavy attack), you'd have to significantly sacrifice damage in order to gain sustain or slot a staff and sacrifice an additional 5 piece to regain magicka.

It's something I'll continue hounding on, but I really think that substantial resource regen should be tied with momentarily pausing your usage of a particular resource pool. Such that not running, using a stamina ability allows you to regain stamina at a faster rate, and not casting spells allows you to regain magicka at a faster rate. Such that regen sets will still shine on allowing continuous use of a resource pool, but you'll no longer be restricted to solely stam or mag and heavy attacks. mixing up resource pool usage and a seperation from a weapon type requirement would really allow for hybrids to be strong as well as freeing up slots for created spells that have utility for stamina users, as well as allowing magicka users to fall back on stamina based skills if the need arises (Battlemage).

@Avran_Sylt

That's why my suggestion completely removes stats from the character stat and instead outa those on weapons and gear.
Initially the game had a thing called overcharge which diminished the impact of food and too many stats in one category

To me this is the direction that makes sense cause it's in line with TES series

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Well, part of the issue I think with spell crafting is how they are currently handling resource regen. Prior to the Stat stacking meta that arose, I think they wanted to have hybrid builds be the meta. But since weapons determine how fast you can regain resources (stam or mag based on weapon type heavy attack), you'd have to significantly sacrifice damage in order to gain sustain or slot a staff and sacrifice an additional 5 piece to regain magicka.

It's something I'll continue hounding on, but I really think that substantial resource regen should be tied with momentarily pausing your usage of a particular resource pool. Such that not running, using a stamina ability allows you to regain stamina at a faster rate, and not casting spells allows you to regain magicka at a faster rate. Such that regen sets will still shine on allowing continuous use of a resource pool, but you'll no longer be restricted to solely stam or mag and heavy attacks. mixing up resource pool usage and a seperation from a weapon type requirement would really allow for hybrids to be strong as well as freeing up slots for created spells that have utility for stamina users, as well as allowing magicka users to fall back on stamina based skills if the need arises (Battlemage).

@Avran_Sylt

That's why my suggestion completely removes stats from the character stat and instead outa those on weapons and gear.
Initially the game had a thing called overcharge which diminished the impact of food and too many stats in one category

To me this is the direction that makes sense cause it's in line with TES series

Hmmm. Issue with that being that sets will now be constrained to certain play styles, and if they were changed to drop in all attribute types the issue becomes an RNG nightmare.

Rather than putting attributes on armor, why not have it be more tied in with character creation?

You've got 64 points to spread out between HP, Stam, and magicka. Your Race can grant an additional small bonus to these attributes or a small bonus elsewhere. Personality/Character Traits can then be chosen that will either further increase these base stats or grant additional effects.

Think of it a bit like the fallout character creation.

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

CromulentForumID wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Just open up every single Class Skill to every character, let us apply our acquired Skill points into any Class Skill Line that we choose, and we get to craft our own "Class" through the allotment of Skill Points into the Skills that we desire.

Whether CP's stay or go... I'm neither "here nor there" on the subject. If CP's went away, I doubt I'd notice. After the abortive Morrowind Update, CP allotment has become trivial anyway. So CP's could stay or go, and I wouldn't even blink an eye.

But remove "Classes".

Open up all of the possible Skill lines and make them available to every player equally. Let the Player choose where/when to spend Skill Points, and let them craft their own "Class" that best fits their desires for their character.

That would be true freedom in this MMO.

They can't balance the game with restrictions. You want them to try to balance without them?

You can't ignore balance in a game with PVP.

We just balanced it for them

No, not really. You just created a game that would be even more heavily skewed towards flavor of the month builds.

@starkerealm

Actually no.
What happens here is a player has to choose because you're not giving them access to everything as they need skills to unlock it. And the only way to unlock it would be by playing. That could mean quests, group content, PvP, etc.

Technically it would force people to change builds around to unlock new options so it completely removes any flavor of the month where's today, ppl throw a skill on a bar and never use it and then unlock what they want while grinding.

I hate having to ask, but you've played MMOs before? I don't know, maybe like that one... what was the name? Elder Scrolls Online?

Ironically, locking it would actually make things worse.

You have a system where one skill line would be more valuable than another. Okay, that's not balance.

In a system like ESO, as it exists now, that's manageable. You can create a coherent playstyle identity for a class, and so long as the available skills feed into that, then, okay, sure, it works. If the gestalt of a class is, more or less, in line with the others, then it's balanced.

Something else I hate having to say, but, actually getting things on a mostly even keel is exceedingly difficult. It's easy enough to say, "well, these two powers are systemically similar, and are roughly equivalent on paper, only to see things go completely sideways on live when someone figures out how to exploit the synergies you never thought of.

In an open system, where any character can (in theory) access any skill, things get way harder. First, you're dealing with synergies you never considered. Hell, countless threads before have talked about the hilarious things you could do mixing classes with each other. It's comically broken stuff.

Second, balancing skill lines against one another with the intention of making a coherent class identity is far easier than trying to balance the entire thing as a single entity.

And this is before we even get to the subject of unlocking skills. Ever see the PvPers whine on here about how they need to max out the Undaunted skill line? I mean, it does happen. They'll wander in, go, "but, we don't want to," and then go and do it anyway.

Locking character options behind content only means players will rush through that content. If you're wondering, "why does this matter," it's because your plan will not affect how veteran players approach the game. We'd keep clearing content, and, more importantly, we'd know where to clear content, in search of the most useful skills or skill lines.

Actually locking this stuff up would make life harder for newbies. Especially if they were restricted to weaker, or less useful skill lines.

Further, handicapping the player like that can have sever consequences for retention. There was a comment from one of the developers of APB, who explained that, when the game launched, players were restricted to a low quality car. The problem was, because it handled poorly, a lot of players assumed that the driving in the game was bad, not that the car they'd started with was to blame.

Lock newbies down to garbage tier skills, and they can easily end up with the perception that the game's combat is uninteresting. Seeing more abilities squirreled away in some zone they've never heard of, won't keep them around.

In all of this the worst thing you can do is lock the number of skills a player could pick up, under your system, because that would result in situations where players would cripple their characters simply by playing the game. Which also doesn't sound like a good idea.

But, at the core of this the same problem remains. If you have 15 skills, and only two of them are viable, that's not balance. Throwing more skills at the pile, ending up with 75 skills, and having only ten of them as viable is no more balanced.

A hole too deep it has become, fill it up, it cannot. Too much pain, suffering, and the end it will be.

starkerealm wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

CromulentForumID wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Just open up every single Class Skill to every character, let us apply our acquired Skill points into any Class Skill Line that we choose, and we get to craft our own "Class" through the allotment of Skill Points into the Skills that we desire.

Whether CP's stay or go... I'm neither "here nor there" on the subject. If CP's went away, I doubt I'd notice. After the abortive Morrowind Update, CP allotment has become trivial anyway. So CP's could stay or go, and I wouldn't even blink an eye.

But remove "Classes".

Open up all of the possible Skill lines and make them available to every player equally. Let the Player choose where/when to spend Skill Points, and let them craft their own "Class" that best fits their desires for their character.

That would be true freedom in this MMO.

They can't balance the game with restrictions. You want them to try to balance without them?

You can't ignore balance in a game with PVP.

We just balanced it for them

No, not really. You just created a game that would be even more heavily skewed towards flavor of the month builds.

@starkerealm

Actually no.
What happens here is a player has to choose because you're not giving them access to everything as they need skills to unlock it. And the only way to unlock it would be by playing. That could mean quests, group content, PvP, etc.

Technically it would force people to change builds around to unlock new options so it completely removes any flavor of the month where's today, ppl throw a skill on a bar and never use it and then unlock what they want while grinding.

I hate having to ask, but you've played MMOs before? I don't know, maybe like that one... what was the name? Elder Scrolls Online?

Ironically, locking it would actually make things worse.

You have a system where one skill line would be more valuable than another. Okay, that's not balance.

In a system like ESO, as it exists now, that's manageable. You can create a coherent playstyle identity for a class, and so long as the available skills feed into that, then, okay, sure, it works. If the gestalt of a class is, more or less, in line with the others, then it's balanced.

Something else I hate having to say, but, actually getting things on a mostly even keel is exceedingly difficult. It's easy enough to say, "well, these two powers are systemically similar, and are roughly equivalent on paper, only to see things go completely sideways on live when someone figures out how to exploit the synergies you never thought of.

In an open system, where any character can (in theory) access any skill, things get way harder. First, you're dealing with synergies you never considered. Hell, countless threads before have talked about the hilarious things you could do mixing classes with each other. It's comically broken stuff.

Second, balancing skill lines against one another with the intention of making a coherent class identity is far easier than trying to balance the entire thing as a single entity.

And this is before we even get to the subject of unlocking skills. Ever see the PvPers whine on here about how they need to max out the Undaunted skill line? I mean, it does happen. They'll wander in, go, "but, we don't want to," and then go and do it anyway.

Locking character options behind content only means players will rush through that content. If you're wondering, "why does this matter," it's because your plan will not affect how veteran players approach the game. We'd keep clearing content, and, more importantly, we'd know where to clear content, in search of the most useful skills or skill lines.

Actually locking this stuff up would make life harder for newbies. Especially if they were restricted to weaker, or less useful skill lines.

Further, handicapping the player like that can have sever consequences for retention. There was a comment from one of the developers of APB, who explained that, when the game launched, players were restricted to a low quality car. The problem was, because it handled poorly, a lot of players assumed that the driving in the game was bad, not that the car they'd started with was to blame.

Lock newbies down to garbage tier skills, and they can easily end up with the perception that the game's combat is uninteresting. Seeing more abilities squirreled away in some zone they've never heard of, won't keep them around.

In all of this the worst thing you can do is lock the number of skills a player could pick up, under your system, because that would result in situations where players would cripple their characters simply by playing the game. Which also doesn't sound like a good idea.

But, at the core of this the same problem remains. If you have 15 skills, and only two of them are viable, that's not balance. Throwing more skills at the pile, ending up with 75 skills, and having only ten of them as viable is no more balanced.

I've been playing MMos since 1999 ish on PC primarily

DAoC, EQ, Asherons Call, Lineage, WoW, LOtrO, DCUO, Neverwinter, and more. Let me start by saying I'm open to any of this, changing some or maybe not touching classes but maaaanny others seem to want change and my idea tries to suggest it in a way that aligns with future development.

Regarding your comments above:
It's not locking it....today you are limited by class in context to the availability of all skills.
I believe you're trying to comprehend something that's not written. This doesn't limit a new player, or confuse the combat system. It's not limiting anyone to a number of skills, it's using the existing system that does work and simplifying parts of it into a more open and meaningful choice keeping the risk and rewards that exist today.


I'm not detailing how it should open up as my initial suggestion starts with removing character levels. So theoretically ZOS could go about it many ways. If we use their initial spell crafting presentation and keep the skill books we read while adventuring, things open up faster and in a more meaningful way than what exists.

Keeping the class skills doesn't mean keeping the class. It's just the skill so you start out and pick up any gear. Bam, that open up the skill line and you choose whether to develop it or not just like today. As you play to level 10 your not limited cause it's One Tamriel so perhaps you play a bit here and there and jump around.

By default you're going to find more gear, quests or even PvP which all impacts the skills you unlock. The skill points themselves....
They still come from exp so if ppl want to grind...O K
But there are still akyshards, quests and story lines that give skills
None of that changes it's just not locking a player into a class prior to even playing the game

Shouldn't they be able to change their choice as they play and further develop or reset skill points as they play?
That's more open than the current system and does not create a balance issue unless ZOS designs it that way.
It's by suggestion not the problem that exists today that's why it's suggested this way.

See....let's stop trying to make this another MMO and let it be it's own server based game wit TES lore
Lore that drives open skill choices with a risk and reward element.

Balance isn't the work to make things even. That's the whole issue with this community and this game. Some things have to be seperate and others have to force choice towards risk and reward. Balance comes in this class to spell idea by means of choice and risk and reward.

Today people spend time for sets and motif rather than actual progression. The form factor of this model isn't progressive it's stagnant. ZOS makes huge sweeping changes and raises VR what's now CP basically all while negating this and changing that. Everyone is doing the same stuff and only doing different content upon new dlc but no one is getting better and the game cannot expand

Similar to Dark Age of Camelot led by some of the same folks, they had a character level cap of 50 and a PvP leveling system like the Cp idea but it was different. The problem occurs when players consider progression as new builds and the new meta vs actually progressing. As such going back to the first Vet dungeon or the first trial ....it's the same only with forced new builds and adjustments.
So my point is O k, if that's going to continue to be the focus, remove the server straining calculations which are the differing levels and consolidate it to the skill lines.

Next is the class system. Based on feedback, people desire class change, but we now have a new class, the game can keep classes as they are, however they seem to be working on spell crafting again, so this disrupts these metas intentionally. If you're going to open it up, I believe it should flow in a simplified manner rather than what continues to create issues like role limitations

Playing ESo with friends limited by a class preset that forces build options, per player feedback isn't what pppl want.
Again Personally I'm open either way

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

"*Remove classes from character creation selection and input them into the world under some new Spell Crafting concepts (keep all the skills tho)"

does this mean that the current class skills would become craftable skills?

@emilyhyoyeon

I would say no.
I don't believe the conversations around opening up classes was to make it some type of crafting system.

We saw the spell crafting as something like that.
I'm not sure that's they way to go. I believe it's more meaningful to play the game whether it be a quest reward, dlc story line, NPC interaction like Skyrim allowed paying for training, even reading bookshelves, from loot drops and monster kills.

I believe crafting is more meaningful for gear and enchants or food and potions.

What makes the typical MMO stale is everything tends to becomes if you want X...do grinds with Y
If you want Z....do grinds for A

While that works for some games, I'm not sure people honestly want ESO to be the game they left in a new skin. Some comment as they do but I've not seen that consistently cause while we often fight changes, we end up adjusting and liking new experiences which is why we left that old game anyways.

IM pretty sure people that worked their asses up to cp 630+ will really like having them removed, i'm really sure i will like it. I love One Tamriel, i love the idea i can go quest where ever i want to go where i feel to go to get crafing materials, if i want to go in desert i can, if i want nice woods, i can, if i want swamps, i can. On my side i like things how they turned out. I love the idea of having CP and 1-49 aside, since it forces people to at least get one lvl 50 to get able to use CP passives and points.