Game balance and variety - what would you do?

kunquatb16_ESO · May 2017

It is obvious that the recent changes to game balance are unpopular. Many stating that they decrease game balance, and decrease character skill variation. Additionally, many of the changes were to lessen "spam play" where just 1 maybe 2 skills are hammered away at, or exploited. We've all seen those templars running in circles none stop killing. Spam play does need tackling. But these changes too heavily penalize good varied specs that required skill to play and used many skills situationally , while leaving spam play easy as pie.

How would you change things to improve game balance, keep variety of spec, and skill usage, and make spam play unviable? In fact any idea you think will improve game balance fairness, and fun.

I hope people will remain constructive.

Doctordarkspawn · May 2017

Here's the problem.

If you attack Spam play you attack the core functionality of the game. It's why, changes to PVP specifically should have been what happened. ZOS's excuse of 'we dont want people to run different gear' is just a substitute for effort.

That said, if I had to do it, I'd do the following.

Institute soft caps again.
Edit the PVE content to suit those caps and the theoretical damage ceiling they'd be ment to keep people at.
Edit the less usefull weapon styles to hit that theoretical damage ceiling. Just have them do it in different ways. Twohanded be a burst damage spec, duel wield chip damage and dots, ect, ect.
Generally let PVP minded players take PVP changes from there because honestly I've never seen a MMO PVP system that works

Profit. The reason the game is *** right now is ZOS wont take a firm hand and make a plan. If 30K DPS is the goal, make all weapons able to hit it, and change the content, the damage resist, the health pools, to revolve around that maxmum number.

The reason the spam play is such a problem is because the combat does not have more nuance. The design needs to encourage people to combo. The design needs to encourage people to use one ability, then another for payoff. This is something that for all ESO's action driven combat, it's usually not managed.

To encourage this, the designers should look at a dragon age inquisition style combo system, with certain status effects and payoffs available to one weapon type.

Otherwise we will keep geting the same situation we have now, where ZOS tries to fix problems with the same heavy hand and keep screwing it.

idk · May 2017

The rescent changes were less about balancing and more about rescaling the game.

GreenSoup2HoT · May 2017

I would remove the regen penatly from sprinting, blocking and rolldodge. Also streak penatly gone.

They were awesome elements of the game that made gameplay fast based and reactive. Now nobody wants to even bother using stamina mechanics because its just a huge drain on resources. Also it was fun mounting up to catch a sorc.

Anything that is overperforming would be tuned straight away. No bandaid fixes that effect large portions of the game (ex crit proc sets when tooltips could of been reduced). Now even lesser used proc sets lost value.

Sigtric · May 2017

Recent changes haven't been punishing or bothering me at all, overall.

The bow heavy attack change is pretty stupid imo.

/shrug

kunquatb16_ESO · May 2017

I thought a system where a skill cost debuff got added with use, so if you spam a skill it get stupidly expensive. But be able to earn off this debuff by using other skills, wep attacks ect. I think it'd would make for more skill use variation, without harming none spammers. Even allowed for role critical skills such as taunts, so proper play is still rewarding for all.

It didn't get much love though

STEVIL · May 2017

broad topic of balance/diversity in gameplay...

SETS - DROPS vs CRAFTING
Remove drop sets weapons altogether. Now you have crafting for sets which include weapons and drops for sets which include jewels. Drops and Crafteds become partners, not competitors in all builds. there would still be non-set weapons of the vanilla variety.
Maelstrom and masters "weapons" would either be replaced by tokens that you could then craft into weapons of that type OR be replaced by temporary "blessings" or even consumables which are significant in power but which run out - thus giving you a need to repeat.
GEAR TRAITS
massive rework of traits for armor and weapons designed to be more "outward" dependent. Basic idea is there is nota "best" trait but rather traits which are best against certain things and less against other things so no "gear-trait" combo is best everywhere but most gear-trait combos are best somewhere or maybe second best everywhere.
Example: let nirned raise damage by X for all weapon cases. Then holy raises it by 2x but only againt undead and daedra. repeat. let nirned add X armor everywhere all the time. let sturdy armor add 2X armor vs DOT damage. let Well fitted add 2X armor vs AOE damage.
PVE CONTENT
Adjust lots of the trials and dungeons to have more sneak challenges and more defense challenges and fewer DPS challenges. DPS challenges can still be the majority of the effort but give more need for the other gameplay elements to factor stronger. Essentially, enough challenges should reward having a dedicated sneak to make it a "role" or at least secondary role that needs to be included for top scores.

kunquatb16_ESO · May 2017

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Here's the problem.

If you attack Spam play you attack the core functionality of the game. It's why, changes to PVP specifically should have been what happened. ZOS's excuse of 'we dont want people to run different gear' is just a substitute for effort.

That said, if I had to do it, I'd do the following.

Institute soft caps again.
Edit the PVE content to suit those caps and the theoretical damage ceiling they'd be ment to keep people at.
Edit the less usefull weapon styles to hit that theoretical damage ceiling. Just have them do it in different ways. Twohanded be a burst damage spec, duel wield chip damage and dots, ect, ect.
Generally let PVP minded players take PVP changes from there because honestly I've never seen a MMO PVP system that works

Profit. The reason the game is *** right now is ZOS wont take a firm hand and make a plan. If 30K DPS is the goal, make all weapons able to hit it, and change the content, the damage resist, the health pools, to revolve around that maxmum number.

The reason the spam play is such a problem is because the combat does not have more nuance. The design needs to encourage people to combo. The design needs to encourage people to use one ability, then another for payoff. This is something that for all ESO's action driven combat, it's usually not managed.

To encourage this, the designers should look at a dragon age inquisition style combo system, with certain status effects and payoffs available to one weapon type.

Otherwise we will keep geting the same situation we have now, where ZOS tries to fix problems with the same heavy hand and keep screwing it.

Some good ideas, but by caps, do you mean hard caps, or diminishing return cap?

I agree about the need to encourage a wider range of skill usage, Maybe weapon types could affect buffs from skills, or other aspects of skill usage.

I also think a more progressive re-balancing process is needed, with changes being smaller, but more often. This would give an opportunity for better feedback from the entire playerbase, whether they have time to beta test or not. It would also give Zos more opportunity to see the actual outcomes of changes, and gauge if it is as intended.

It is obvious from the patch note, and the actual outcomes of these changes, that they have not achieved what they are meant too.

AcadianPaladin · May 2017

Improve and variety? Hmm, I'd start with a couple very big things:

1. Admit that balancing PvP and PvE together is a futile endeavor and give each of the two disparate modes the care and respect they each deserve.

2. Make damage scale on the skill in the line that supports it. That is high 2H damage comes from having 50 in the 2H skill line - not stam. Have staff damage scale off skill in the staff line, not magicka. Casting damage similarly would scale from high skill in the skillline that provides it instead of mag or stam. Stam would be used for block/bash/dodgeroll/sprinting. Magicka would be used to actually cast abilities that require casting.

STEVIL · May 2017

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

Improve and variety? Hmm, I'd start with a couple very big things:

1. Admit that balancing PvP and PvE together is a futile endeavor and give each of the two disparate modes the care and respect they each deserve.

2. Make damage scale on the skill in the line that supports it. That is high 2H damage comes from having 50 in the 2H skill line - not stam. Have staff damage scale off skill in the staff line, not magicka. Casting damage similarly would scale from high skill in the skillline that provides it instead of mag or stam. Stam would be used for block/bash/dodgeroll/sprinting. Magicka would be used to actually cast abilities that require casting.

Interesting...

I did not think it affected diversity that much but a similar suggestion i had flaoted in another thread was this:

For weapon skills, keep the current wpn/spldam + pool/10.5 formula. (ish) This keeps the base weapon damage as a prime mover in that weapon skill damage.

For non-weapon skills (class, guild, world, etc) replace the wpn/spldam element with the character level.as a base. This way, 2h for instance would not give spears or silver bolts bonus damage over say sword and shield.

However, replacing class level with skill leve is maybe a good idea, tho its certainly possible to raise skill levels faster than class level so, could be some things that have to be looked at.

kunquatb16_ESO · May 2017

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

Improve and variety? Hmm, I'd start with a couple very big things:

1. Admit that balancing PvP and PvE together is a futile endeavor and give each of the two disparate modes the care and respect they each deserve.

2. Make damage scale on the skill in the line that supports it. That is high 2H damage comes from having 50 in the 2H skill line - not stam. Have staff damage scale off skill in the staff line, not magicka. Casting damage similarly would scale from high skill in the skillline that provides it instead of mag or stam. Stam would be used for block/bash/dodgeroll/sprinting. Magicka would be used to actually cast abilities that require casting.

Agreed on separate balancing for PvP and PvE.

I like your second point too. I'd add that many skills have secondary effects, such as buffs dot heals ect. These secondary effect could be modified by the characters level in other skills.

Example: Healing path, shadow path morph. Have 4 effects, buff move speed, stam related buff, healing, mag related effect, damage dots from magic? (can't remember), and a snare reducing targets move speed. If the level of other skills affected (but not solely dictated, mainly from the skill in use's level) how effective these aspects of skill are, having a highly skilled character you've put time and effort into shaping would be rewarded more.

gediv2 · May 2017

Make a pvp login and a pve login available for each user character. Each login has its dedicated CP, Skills and Gear that can only be obtained in each login. Make pvp land have pvp centric gear, CP and skills. Conversely, if you log that same character by pressing the pve login you only see pve CP and gear etc...

Might be doable, whereas having seamless pve /pvp seems beyond the developers capabilities (or budget).

Once the balancing tug of war between pve and pvp is resolved, ZOS can dial in the much needed balancing.

AgentofKhaoss · May 2017

STEVIL wrote: »

broad topic of balance/diversity in gameplay...
SETS - DROPS vs CRAFTING

Remove drop sets weapons altogether. Now you have crafting for sets which include weapons and drops for sets which include jewels. Drops and Crafteds become partners, not competitors in all builds. there would still be non-set weapons of the vanilla variety.

Maelstrom and masters "weapons" would either be replaced by tokens that you could then craft into weapons of that type OR be replaced by temporary "blessings" or even consumables which are significant in power but which run out - thus giving you a need to repeat.

GEAR TRAITS

massive rework of traits for armor and weapons designed to be more "outward" dependent. Basic idea is there is nota "best" trait but rather traits which are best against certain things and less against other things so no "gear-trait" combo is best everywhere but most gear-trait combos are best somewhere or maybe second best everywhere.

Example: let nirned raise damage by X for all weapon cases. Then holy raises it by 2x but only againt undead and daedra. repeat. let nirned add X armor everywhere all the time. let sturdy armor add 2X armor vs DOT damage. let Well fitted add 2X armor vs AOE damage.

PVE CONTENT

Adjust lots of the trials and dungeons to have more sneak challenges and more defense challenges and fewer DPS challenges. DPS challenges can still be the majority of the effort but give more need for the other gameplay elements to factor stronger. Essentially, enough challenges should reward having a dedicated sneak to make it a "role" or at least secondary role that needs to be included for top scores.

I think that all of these are great suggestions. But, I think we need one more..... add stamina morphs to every ability and add magika morphs to weapon skills. Combined with your changes, you would have build diversity and balance.

The only one I am not sure about is the Maelstrom token. I think Vet Maelstrom needs to be reworked.

Coilbox · May 2017

To me is very easy... you try balance PVP... will have the PVE crowd upset... try to modify something on PVE (wont say balance cause there are not balance issues on PVE)... it has very bad implications on PVP...

Just separate these 2. Most problems solved.

DHale · May 2017

kunquatb16_ESO wrote: »

It is obvious that the recent changes to game balance are unpopular. Many stating that they decrease game balance, and decrease character skill variation. Additionally, many of the changes were to lessen "spam play" where just 1 maybe 2 skills are hammered away at, or exploited. We've all seen those templars running in circles none stop killing. Spam play does need tackling. But these changes too heavily penalize good varied specs that required skill to play and used many skills situationally , while leaving spam play easy as pie.

How would you change things to improve game balance, keep variety of spec, and skill usage, and make spam play unviable? In fact any idea you think will improve game balance fairness, and fun.

I hope people will remain constructive.

It hard to be constructive and although I agree with you. Balance mean different things to different people. I literally just had a discussion with a wonderful guy who has a khajit DK stam who does to have and aoe spammable but Warden does. He was mad. He won't level a warden or change from khajit. He said it's only good in single target. He will never admit things are balanced. Stam DK is one of the strongest things because they do what they do well. Not because they have a aoe spammable

MisterBigglesworth · May 2017

I would implement cooldowns, give each class 3 specs to chose from, restrict the abilities you can slot to only those approved for your current spec, restrict the type of armor and weapons each class/spec can equip, abandon all forms of horizontal progression and replace with a purely gear-based item level vertical progression system, with 10-level increases roughly every 18-24 months.

Also, pet battles.

kunquatb16_ESO · May 2017

gediv2 wrote: »

Make a pvp login and a pve login available for each user character. Each login has its dedicated CP, Skills and Gear that can only be obtained in each login. Make pvp land have pvp centric gear, CP and skills. Conversely, if you log that same character by pressing the pve login you only see pve CP and gear etc...

Might be doable, whereas having seamless pve /pvp seems beyond the developers capabilities (or budget).

Once the balancing tug of war between pve and pvp is resolved, ZOS can dial in the much needed balancing.

I get where you're going, but having to log out and in again to switch between PvE and PvP would be annoying.

A possible solution could be for all gear, weps so forth to have PvE stats and effects, and different PvP effects. Player could then decide which version they want to use (by a toggle), skill setups could also be set to toggle.

Another way would be to separate out Equipped gear, so you would have a PvE set, and a PvP set, but this does involve gaining 2 sets of gear.

It does seem sensible to balance PvE and PvP separately, as the scenarios in each are generally very different.

STEVIL · May 2017

AgentofKhaoss wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

broad topic of balance/diversity in gameplay...
SETS - DROPS vs CRAFTING

Remove drop sets weapons altogether. Now you have crafting for sets which include weapons and drops for sets which include jewels. Drops and Crafteds become partners, not competitors in all builds. there would still be non-set weapons of the vanilla variety.

Maelstrom and masters "weapons" would either be replaced by tokens that you could then craft into weapons of that type OR be replaced by temporary "blessings" or even consumables which are significant in power but which run out - thus giving you a need to repeat.

GEAR TRAITS

massive rework of traits for armor and weapons designed to be more "outward" dependent. Basic idea is there is nota "best" trait but rather traits which are best against certain things and less against other things so no "gear-trait" combo is best everywhere but most gear-trait combos are best somewhere or maybe second best everywhere.

Example: let nirned raise damage by X for all weapon cases. Then holy raises it by 2x but only againt undead and daedra. repeat. let nirned add X armor everywhere all the time. let sturdy armor add 2X armor vs DOT damage. let Well fitted add 2X armor vs AOE damage.

PVE CONTENT

Adjust lots of the trials and dungeons to have more sneak challenges and more defense challenges and fewer DPS challenges. DPS challenges can still be the majority of the effort but give more need for the other gameplay elements to factor stronger. Essentially, enough challenges should reward having a dedicated sneak to make it a "role" or at least secondary role that needs to be included for top scores.

I think that all of these are great suggestions. But, I think we need one more..... add stamina morphs to every ability and add magika morphs to weapon skills. Combined with your changes, you would have build diversity and balance.

The only one I am not sure about is the Maelstrom token. I think Vet Maelstrom needs to be reworked.

Agree that MA like the other types of end game tough, needs rework to be more diverse a chalkenge.

Mojmir · May 2017

First I'd change team Developing