Stamina warden criticism

Wihuri · May 2017

I was playing warden on the PTS and I was using 2h/S&B setup in PvP. I mixed some weapon skills in with class abilities. Very enjoyable. However, I don't think it's very viable anymore as warden and here is why! As last minute changes 2 specific warden passives were changed which affected our specific playstyle. These are:

Piercing Cold from Winter's Embrace skill tree
This previously increased your physical and frost damage by 6%. This was changed to magic and frost damage increase (still 6%). I guess this was to make magicka dps warden more viable for PvE? Ok, that's fair enough and we kind of get compensated by the next change.

Advanced Species from Animal Companions skill tree
This previously increased the amount of damage you deal with Animal Companion abilities by 2% per Animal Companion ability slotted. It was changed to all damage increased by 2% per Animal Companion ability slotted.

Ok, so let's take the build I wanted to play which used standard 2h abilities as in charge, uppercut and execute. Previously this was fine because we were getting a physical damage increase from Piercing Cold. Now we don't have that. We are penalized for using the 2h abilities because we lose the damage bonus from Advanced Species for not slotting Animal Companion abilities. So therefore we are kind of boxed in to using class abilities (which are awesome, though). I don't like this. We have no physical damage increasing passives, so why would I pick stamina warden over say stamina templar or stamina sorcerer? That is if I want to play with a 2-hander.

Thanks for reading. What do you think? Do you think I'm being unreasonable? Do you not like this as well? Let me know, bois!

Vapirko · May 2017

Welcome to the world of Stam users.

Mojmir · May 2017

You gotta reroll to the "hurricane wrobel" class.

kijima · May 2017

Mojmir wrote: »

You gotta reroll to the "hurricane wrobel" class.

Isn't that just another way of saying Sorc?

LazyLou · May 2017

kijima wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

You gotta reroll to the "hurricane wrobel" class.

Isn't that just another way of saying Sorc?

Well that was the point..

manfred.wieserb16_ESO · May 2017

Piercing Cold from Winter's Embrace skill tree
This previously increased your physical and frost damage by 6%. This was changed to magic and frost damage increase (still 6%). I guess this was to make magicka dps warden more viable for PvE? Ok, that's fair enough and we kind of get compensated by the next change.

Advanced Species from Animal Companions skill tree
This previously increased the amount of damage you deal with Animal Companion abilities by 2% per Animal Companion ability slotted. It was changed to all damage increased by 2% per Animal Companion ability slotted.

... They are joking ... i havn´t noticed that!

Anti_Virus · May 2017

"Play a magic build"
-Zos

Gan Xing · May 2017

Automaton and Bone pirate is a good set up for any stam build

TheStealthDude · May 2017

The Advanced Species change looks like a buff to me, what am I missing?

Before: only damage from animal companion skills is increased.

After: all damage is increased.

Wihuri · May 2017

TheStealthDude wrote: »

The Advanced Species change looks like a buff to me, what am I missing?

Before: only damage from animal companion skills is increased.

After: all damage is increased.

If you prefer slotting only few animal companion skills, then it was a nerf. Your build variety is limited and this was the point I made.

TheStealthDude · May 2017

Wihuri wrote: »

TheStealthDude wrote: »

The Advanced Species change looks like a buff to me, what am I missing?

Before: only damage from animal companion skills is increased.

After: all damage is increased.

If you prefer slotting only few animal companion skills, then it was a nerf. Your build variety is limited and this was the point I made.

I'm sorry, but I still don't see what I am missing. This seems like a straight buff to the skill. In fact, the change seems more rewarding for people who only want fewer animal skills, while having no effect on those who want all the animal companion skills slotted.

Or do you perhaps mean this is a nerf in the greater picture, when combined with the change to piercing cold?

I also don't see how you can say you are penalized by this change for not slotting animal abilities, if you didn't already do so before. If you had 0 animal abilities before and after, the change from that passive is 0.

Wihuri · May 2017

TheStealthDude wrote: »

Or do you perhaps mean this is a nerf in the greater picture, when combined with the change to piercing cold?

This is exactly what I mean. Previously you got 6% added physical damage from Piercing Cold regardless of slotting animal companion abilities or not. Let's say you slot 1 animal companion ability. You use a physical damage ability that isn't an animal companion ability. You got 6% added damage to that ability. Now you get 2% added damage because you slot only 1 animal companion ability. Do you see what I'm saying? If you want to do that you are better off playing another class.
I'll give you examples.

Sorcerer - Energized (passive) from Storm Calling skill line
Increases your Physical and Shock Damage by 5%.

Templar - Balanced Warrior (passive) from Aedric Spear skill line
Increases Weapon Damage by 6% and Spell Resistance by 2640.

Dragonknight - Mountain's Blessing (passive) from Earthen heart skill line
Activating an Earthen Heart ability grants Minor Brutality to you and nearby allies, increasing Weapon Damage by 5% for 20 seconds.
If you are in combat, you also gain 3 Ultimate. This can only occur once every 6 seconds.

Nightblade - Master Assassin (passive) from Assassination skill line
Increases Weapon and Spell Damage while invisible or stealthed by 10%. The stun from the Crouch ability stuns for 100% longer.

Now I agree the nightblade damage increase is inconsistent, but afaik the class is dragging behind others (correct me if I'm wrong).

Toc de Malsvi · May 2017

Wihuri wrote: »

TheStealthDude wrote: »

Or do you perhaps mean this is a nerf in the greater picture, when combined with the change to piercing cold?

This is exactly what I mean. Previously you got 6% added physical damage from Piercing Cold regardless of slotting animal companion abilities or not. Let's say you slot 1 animal companion ability. You use a physical damage ability that isn't an animal companion ability. You got 6% added damage to that ability. Now you get 2% added damage because you slot only 1 animal companion ability. Do you see what I'm saying? If you want to do that you are better off playing another class.
I'll give you examples.

Sorcerer - Energized (passive) from Storm Calling skill line
Increases your Physical and Shock Damage by 5%.

Templar - Balanced Warrior (passive) from Aedric Spear skill line
Increases Weapon Damage by 6% and Spell Resistance by 2640.

Dragonknight - Mountain's Blessing (passive) from Earthen heart skill line
Activating an Earthen Heart ability grants Minor Brutality to you and nearby allies, increasing Weapon Damage by 5% for 20 seconds.
If you are in combat, you also gain 3 Ultimate. This can only occur once every 6 seconds.

Nightblade - Master Assassin (passive) from Assassination skill line
Increases Weapon and Spell Damage while invisible or stealthed by 10%. The stun from the Crouch ability stuns for 100% longer.

Now I agree the nightblade damage increase is inconsistent, but afaik the class is dragging behind others (correct me if I'm wrong).

Well you are a little off base, those passives you listed do not all compare or matchup.

Minor Brutality is going to come from MagDK so you don't really gain much as stam DK. Additionally, stam DK does not utilize Earthen Heart skills for DPS, perhaps Molten Armaments but you only want to cast that every 30s not every 20s. It is also a buff that requires skill cast so its really not comparable to a passive physical damage buff. And its a buff to weapon damage not physical damage.

No StamNB is going to benefit from that passive damage buff in PVE outside of overland questing or the opening shot which makes it insignificant.

The Templars 6% weapon damage is better than nothing but its still way less than 5% passive physical damage.

Of the buffs you listed only Sorcerers have a comparable passive damage buff.

Toc de Malsvi · May 2017

I wouldn't want to lose that passive, but I also am not very fond of the setup and damage of Wardens. I really liked the healing lines and buffs available to Stamina Wardens, however I found the stamina morph damage skills themselves to be mostly rather unappealing.

Dive takes too long to damage the target and barely feels better than simply casting Snipe, although it does work well on the move compared to Snipe.

Subterranian Assault hits like a truck but was hard to line up at times.

The Netch was useful but really annoying visually, and although free stamina and Major Brutality is a cant miss, the skill didn't feel very influential.

The Bear disappeared often, got stuck in objects, would appear to completely miss ultimate trigger if you were at range. I found I hated having him out even if it was a dps gain for certain setups.

ADarklore · May 2017

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

I wouldn't want to lose that passive, but I also am not very fond of the setup and damage of Wardens. I really liked the healing lines and buffs available to Stamina Wardens, however I found the stamina morph damage skills themselves to be mostly rather unappealing.

Dive takes too long to damage the target and barely feels better than simply casting Snipe, although it does work well on the move compared to Snipe.

Subterranian Assault hits like a truck but was hard to line up at times.

The Netch was useful but really annoying visually, and although free stamina and Major Brutality is a cant miss, the skill didn't feel very influential.

The Bear disappeared often, got stuck in objects, would appear to completely miss ultimate trigger if you were at range. I found I hated having him out even if it was a dps gain for certain setups.

Yes, hits like a truck, and before the passive change, received NO buff... after the passive change, since SA does POISON damage, it receives a damage buff... so now hits like an even larger truck. The passive before benefitted ONLY physical damage, but didn't make a whole lot of sense considering one of the animal companion skills did poison damage. Now, ALL damage receives a buff, so if you're a poison-based build, you just got a buff from the change.

Wihuri · May 2017

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Well you are a little off base, those passives you listed do not all compare or matchup.

Minor Brutality is going to come from MagDK so you don't really gain much as stam DK. Additionally, stam DK does not utilize Earthen Heart skills for DPS, perhaps Molten Armaments but you only want to cast that every 30s not every 20s. It is also a buff that requires skill cast so its really not comparable to a passive physical damage buff. And its a buff to weapon damage not physical damage.

No StamNB is going to benefit from that passive damage buff in PVE outside of overland questing or the opening shot which makes it insignificant.

The Templars 6% weapon damage is better than nothing but its still way less than 5% passive physical damage.

Of the buffs you listed only Sorcerers have a comparable passive damage buff.

Their comparable value varies, but none of them strongly encourage slotting in as many skills from a skill tree as possible.

Wihuri · May 2017

ADarklore wrote: »

...before the passive change, received NO buff... after the passive change, since SA does POISON damage, it receives a damage buff... so now hits like an even larger truck. The passive before benefitted ONLY physical damage, but didn't make a whole lot of sense considering one of the animal companion skills did poison damage. Now, ALL damage receives a buff, so if you're a poison-based build, you just got a buff from the change.

This is incorrect as Advanced Species already increased Animal Companion skills (which Subterranean Assault is). There was no change to the damage of this ability from passive changes.

TheStealthDude · May 2017

Wihuri wrote: »

TheStealthDude wrote: »

Or do you perhaps mean this is a nerf in the greater picture, when combined with the change to piercing cold?

This is exactly what I mean. Previously you got 6% added physical damage from Piercing Cold regardless of slotting animal companion abilities or not. Let's say you slot 1 animal companion ability. You use a physical damage ability that isn't an animal companion ability. You got 6% added damage to that ability. Now you get 2% added damage because you slot only 1 animal companion ability. Do you see what I'm saying? If you want to do that you are better off playing another class.
I'll give you examples.

Sorcerer - Energized (passive) from Storm Calling skill line
Increases your Physical and Shock Damage by 5%.

Templar - Balanced Warrior (passive) from Aedric Spear skill line
Increases Weapon Damage by 6% and Spell Resistance by 2640.

Dragonknight - Mountain's Blessing (passive) from Earthen heart skill line
Activating an Earthen Heart ability grants Minor Brutality to you and nearby allies, increasing Weapon Damage by 5% for 20 seconds.
If you are in combat, you also gain 3 Ultimate. This can only occur once every 6 seconds.

Nightblade - Master Assassin (passive) from Assassination skill line
Increases Weapon and Spell Damage while invisible or stealthed by 10%. The stun from the Crouch ability stuns for 100% longer.

Now I agree the nightblade damage increase is inconsistent, but afaik the class is dragging behind others (correct me if I'm wrong).

Ok I think I see what you mean: you are essentially unhappy with how they removed a general physical damage buff passive and tried to make up for it with a buff to another passive.

You simply wanted the class passive for a build that doesn't utilize many, if any, class abilities. The reason for this change, from what I can tell, is that Stamina Warden was overperforming and Magicka warden was underperforming. These changes somewhat helped with those problems.

I very much do like the change to the Advanced Species passive, though, as I definitely can utilize many of those Animal Companion skills on both stamina and magicka wardens (not that I would stack them, per se, but just having 1 on my bar is a nice benefit). I don't agree that you are boxed into using only class abilities at the expense of weapon abilities, though. You have enough slots to have both and at the end of the day, this game comes down to making choices between which skills to use. It's not supposed to be an easy choice.

SodanTok · May 2017

TheStealthDude wrote: »

Wihuri wrote: »

TheStealthDude wrote: »

Or do you perhaps mean this is a nerf in the greater picture, when combined with the change to piercing cold?

This is exactly what I mean. Previously you got 6% added physical damage from Piercing Cold regardless of slotting animal companion abilities or not. Let's say you slot 1 animal companion ability. You use a physical damage ability that isn't an animal companion ability. You got 6% added damage to that ability. Now you get 2% added damage because you slot only 1 animal companion ability. Do you see what I'm saying? If you want to do that you are better off playing another class.
I'll give you examples.

Sorcerer - Energized (passive) from Storm Calling skill line
Increases your Physical and Shock Damage by 5%.

Templar - Balanced Warrior (passive) from Aedric Spear skill line
Increases Weapon Damage by 6% and Spell Resistance by 2640.

Dragonknight - Mountain's Blessing (passive) from Earthen heart skill line
Activating an Earthen Heart ability grants Minor Brutality to you and nearby allies, increasing Weapon Damage by 5% for 20 seconds.
If you are in combat, you also gain 3 Ultimate. This can only occur once every 6 seconds.

Nightblade - Master Assassin (passive) from Assassination skill line
Increases Weapon and Spell Damage while invisible or stealthed by 10%. The stun from the Crouch ability stuns for 100% longer.

Now I agree the nightblade damage increase is inconsistent, but afaik the class is dragging behind others (correct me if I'm wrong).

Ok I think I see what you mean: you are essentially unhappy with how they removed a general physical damage buff passive and tried to make up for it with a buff to another passive.

You simply wanted the class passive for a build that doesn't utilize many, if any, class abilities. The reason for this change, from what I can tell, is that Stamina Warden was overperforming and Magicka warden was underperforming. These changes somewhat helped with those problems.

I very much do like the change to the Advanced Species passive, though, as I definitely can utilize many of those Animal Companion skills on both stamina and magicka wardens (not that I would stack them, per se, but just having 1 on my bar is a nice benefit). I don't agree that you are boxed into using only class abilities at the expense of weapon abilities, though. You have enough slots to have both and at the end of the day, this game comes down to making choices between which skills to use. It's not supposed to be an easy choice.

He wanted class passive other classes have (notably sorc). He wanted passive that is usable for classic stamina classes, because they always use mostly nonclass abilities. Stam wardens were barely performing in PVE so the only problem was some people wanted to play them. Now that was solved.

You could have utilized many of animal companion skills before and would have been better. Now they are all worse. They were buffed by both passive, now they have only one.

So the only reason you like this change very much is probably because you dont understand it (unless you meant that from magwarden point of view)

Wihuri · May 2017

TheStealthDude wrote: »

Ok I think I see what you mean: you are essentially unhappy with how they removed a general physical damage buff passive and tried to make up for it with a buff to another passive.

You simply wanted the class passive for a build that doesn't utilize many, if any, class abilities.

Yes pretty much this. Requiring one ability from a tree is alright with me, but any more is too restrictive in my opinion.