Killing the goose that lays golden eggs

kunquatb16_ESO · May 2017

Having played this game since closed beta, I can say definitively, That the latest changes are far to drastic, to many changes to balance all at once. Making that number of changes ensures it'll be over all bad, and it is. These changes are in the wrong direction.

Changing champion points, and regens, and costs, and effectiveness, and cost reduction and item set values all at once is too much. It leave to many previously viable characters out in the cold, virtually unplayable, effectively back to square one. Changing these things progressively would avoid this happening.
These changes need to be reversed, rethought, and phased in to allow all players a chance to re-balance without their current spec becoming entirely hollowed out in one move.

It getting to the point where it's no longer worth working for a spec, as everything will be flipped on it head and what ever spec you had will be useless. Phased changes would make it worth working for, adapting to those changes, and always having a playable spec.

Phinix1 · May 2017

Agreed. The whole concept of forced heavy attack/tedious resource micro-management is lazy, short-sighted, and goes against the entire point of the game, which is TO HAVE FUN.

I hope they undo much of this terrible tunnel vision for the game they somehow got stuck on over the next months with re-rebalance patches.

Synfaer · May 2017

It getting to the point where it's no longer worth working for a spec, as everything will be flipped on it head and what ever spec you had will be useless. Phased changes would make it worth working for, adapting to those changes, and always having a playable spec.

Welcome to the MMO genre

MrBeatDown_ · May 2017

Just make a sorc. Problem solved. You never have to worry about anything ever effecting you. I know I'm enjoying my sorc since they nerfed the hell out of stamina classes. I can finally play without having to worry about sustain or using my brain to kill people. I can spam all my abilities, Have Insane defense, and incredible burst damage, And It only cost about 15k gold to buy the gear to do it with. Game is ez mode for sorc now.

Synfaer · May 2017

Probably should change the title to 'Geece that lay the golden eggs'.
I was thinking of you as a goose as I was reading that

Avran_Sylt · May 2017

Question for you: If regen was redone in a way where you could regain your resource just about as quickly as a heavy attack by not using that particular resource, but instead dipping into another resource (effectively swapping heavy attacks with attacks using your other resource pool), How would you respond?

(To clarify: you could still regain your resource by heavy attacking (and light attacking if you let the light attack animation play out), but could also regain it by using your other resource pool)

kunquatb16_ESO · May 2017

MrBeatDown_ wrote: »

Just make a sorc. Problem solved. You never have to worry about anything ever effecting you. I know I'm enjoying my sorc since they nerfed the hell out of stamina classes. I can finally play without having to worry about sustain or using my brain to kill people. I can spam all my abilities, Have Insane defense, and incredible burst damage, And It only cost about 15k gold to buy the gear to do it with. Game is ez mode for sorc now.

I have a sorc, but it's not the point. I now have a tank I'm forced to play in THE most tedious way, just to get him the gear he'll need to be playable again. I like variety, of characters, play styles ect. These changes drastically reduce that variety.

kunquatb16_ESO · May 2017

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Question for you: If regen was redone in a way where you could regain your resource just about as quickly as a heavy attack by not using that particular resource, but instead dipping into another resource (effectively swapping heavy attacks with attacks using your other resource pool), How would you respond?

(To clarify: you could still regain your resource by heavy attacking (and light attacking if you let the light attack animation play out), but could also regain it by using your other resource pool)

It could lead to a higher variation of skill usage, but could also make purespecs outmoded. A possible tweak could be making successive skill usage more expensive, ie skill spamming, which these changes are attempting to combat.

kunquatb16_ESO · May 2017

Synfaer wrote: »

Probably should change the title to 'Geece that lay the golden eggs'.
I was thinking of you as a goose as I was reading that

lol, in this case, the game is the goose, we're the golden eggs. Also the parable says goose :P

Mettaricana · May 2017

Ppl cry way to much im excoted excited over all of it

Nemesis7884 · May 2017

MrBeatDown_ wrote: »

Just make a sorc. Problem solved. You never have to worry about anything ever effecting you. I know I'm enjoying my sorc since they nerfed the hell out of stamina classes. I can finally play without having to worry about sustain or using my brain to kill people. I can spam all my abilities, Have Insane defense, and incredible burst damage, And It only cost about 15k gold to buy the gear to do it with. Game is ez mode for sorc now.

you immediatly recognise a great mmo when 75% of the people are playing the same class...god job ^^

Lirkin · May 2017

I agree they went to far but I don't like the idea of incremental changes. I just think they need to think them through better. I do wish they would reverse them.

This is why I will not be buying Morrowin at this time. Maybe later it things straighten out.

Galwylin · May 2017

Well, I haven't touched any of my old classes yet. I am glad that I decided to level up my sorcerers a few weeks back. I'm really afraid to look honestly. I was already right there on the edge. I could survive and was approaching thriving. Starting to give my try at things I never thought I'd care to do like vMA (or nMA whatever, it killed me) and solo the beginner group dungeons. So I could almost feel that I was about to get to this place everyone else seemed to have been for ages. So I'm too afraid to see if I really have been regressed.

If so, I guess I'll just play in my house and change clothes. Maybe feed the horse. Make some shoes. Go chat with the NPCs. See how their day is going. Talk about that time I saved the town over. Yeah, its gonna be sweet. :'(

idk · May 2017

For more than a year Zos has made changes every quarter that changed meta builds, mostly the BiS gear. This patch is not different that that.

While I agree the changes were heavy handed and as the result of a lack of vision on the developers part and poor management overall, we are surviving. Player are clearing vet trials and if that is being done without major issue then PvP and the like should be in good shape as well.

kunquatb16_ESO · May 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

For more than a year Zos has made changes every quarter that changed meta builds, mostly the BiS gear. This patch is not different that that.

While I agree the changes were heavy handed and as the result of a lack of vision on the developers part and poor management overall, we are surviving. Player are clearing vet trials and if that is being done without major issue then PvP and the like should be in good shape as well.

The changes are in the wrong direction. The dev notes repeatedly state they were made to stop skill spamming, and increase spec variation. They in fact don't achieve this, instead punishing specs not based on spamming, leaving others that are based on spamming unaffected, and decreases spec variation and skill usage, replacing it with resource micro-management.

The changes don't meet the stated aims, the problem isn't the implementation, it's what is being implemented, a fundamental rethink is needed.

Narvuntien · May 2017

I do kind of agree with you, these changes should of been done more slowly.

What makes this game different (better?) than other MMOs is the extreme flexiability of the class system and the ability to basically do a little bit of everything with a single character. It allows for a lot of solo play for the antisocial types ha.

It does produce a sameness to the builds as for the most part characters of different classes can just pick up whatever is best. But class and race passives honestly only really matter at the highest level of play.

A lot of these changes seem to be forcing the needle back towards group play and less flexability, I mean rampant power creep is a problem, I understand why some of these things needed to be done... but instead of doing it slow.. a power decreep if you will.. they flipped a lot of things so people have to basically relearn and it is dangerous to force people to do hard work.. because everyone is so lazy.

Now the nerfs aren't the end of the world. an mag or stam regen enchant and a different food or drink buff, perhaps switching a set out. you can deal with it just fine.

Rohamad_Ali · May 2017

Crash course in brain surgery .

Morgul667 · May 2017

I dont understand why ZOS is not doing minor update very week until it reaches good balance. Seems much easier to control that drastic change happening every 6 months.

Synfaer · May 2017

Morgul667 wrote: »

I dont understand why ZOS is not doing minor update very week until it reaches good balance. Seems much easier to control that drastic change happening every 6 months.

umm...because balance in an MMO is a just a myth

colig · May 2017

The golden eggs were becoming less valuable as time went on. ZOS decided to feed the goose less and start selling chickens instead.

ObsidianMichi · May 2017

Galwylin wrote: »

Well, I haven't touched any of my old classes yet. I am glad that I decided to level up my sorcerers a few weeks back. I'm really afraid to look honestly. I was already right there on the edge. I could survive and was approaching thriving. Starting to give my try at things I never thought I'd care to do like vMA (or nMA whatever, it killed me) and solo the beginner group dungeons. So I could almost feel that I was about to get to this place everyone else seemed to have been for ages. So I'm too afraid to see if I really have been regressed.

If so, I guess I'll just play in my house and change clothes. Maybe feed the horse. Make some shoes. Go chat with the NPCs. See how their day is going. Talk about that time I saved the town over. Yeah, its gonna be sweet. :'(

Honestly, the one thing that no balance change can ever take from you is your skill as a player and that has nothing to do with a balance sheet.

Practice, understanding of enemy mechanics, learning the ins and outs of the basic enemy maneuvers are how you solo dungeons. That and learning to account for what skills you need to supplement your character in the place of a 4 man group. Having the instinctual timing necessary to run from the red, bash a healer or a lurcher out of their animations, and having a grasp for how to buy yourself time when you're out of resources is more important than any kind of infinite sustain. Those skills survive through the MMO changes and make adapting to new setups easier because you already have a baseline.

If you understand the ins and outs of your class, you can make the changes and adjustments you need to continue thriving. It doesn't mean throwing the baby out with the bath water. It's true that cheese builds are fun, but they aren't necessary to get where you want to go or do what you want to do. It's just going to feel a little different at first.

I once made it most of the way through a midlevel dungeon on a tanky NB at level before One Tamriel and at level. I rebuilt my heavy armor Sorc (who I've been playing since launch) back into her split build tank set up and solo'd her through Fungal I in purple crafted gear Whitestrakes/Julianos with a sword and board and destro staff. Not max CP or anything. No heals other than potions, a food buff, and Critical Surge. Only died once to a trash mob. My Templar can still slam herself face first into the Craglorn Group mobs without much adjustment. I'm sure the day will come when I take her soloing.

If you have spent your time gathering a basic understanding of how combat in this game works, you will be fine. If you've done nothing but chase metas and cheese... well, then you'll be in slightly more trouble.

Shadow_Viper_vX · May 2017

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDMB-Bi27XQ

I know that at first, it can be scary losing easymode; fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate...

But it's going to be okay, just remember...

It's Fine, Learn to Play

Adapt and Overcome

Flameheart · May 2017

Was doing AA and Hel Ra vet yesterday. To describe raiding after those changes, several paraphrises come to my mind and they fill the whole spectrum from "needs getting used to" over "uncomfortable" to "where is the *** fun?".

I wonder how vet hm 4-man-PUGs will do after those patches. With DDs who couldn't deliver even mediocre dps prepatch and where there are healers who think their only job is spreading Mutagen, but never heard anything about shards, bubbles and ele drain (but were beaming bosses at 100%...).

PS: Zos introduced a new feature btw. Get used to the "stuck in heavy attack" syndrome.

starkerealm · May 2017

Galwylin wrote: »

Well, I haven't touched any of my old classes yet. I am glad that I decided to level up my sorcerers a few weeks back. I'm really afraid to look honestly. I was already right there on the edge. I could survive and was approaching thriving. Starting to give my try at things I never thought I'd care to do like vMA (or nMA whatever, it killed me) and solo the beginner group dungeons. So I could almost feel that I was about to get to this place everyone else seemed to have been for ages. So I'm too afraid to see if I really have been regressed.

If so, I guess I'll just play in my house and change clothes. Maybe feed the horse. Make some shoes. Go chat with the NPCs. See how their day is going. Talk about that time I saved the town over. Yeah, its gonna be sweet. :'(

So... you're telling me, you're lamenting changes you haven't experienced personally?

...because these forums are such a reliable metric for accurate information and no one on Reddit has ever made a mistake?

Really?

Log in. Play them. Mess around with them. Then come back and say how it affected you. Don't accept Deletia's "it's the end of the world," tantrums, nor those of his followers.

kunquatb16_ESO · May 2017

Shadow_Viper_vX wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDMB-Bi27XQ

I know that at first, it can be scary losing easymode; fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate...

But it's going to be okay, just remember...

It's Fine, Learn to Play

Adapt and Overcome

It's not that I need to learn to play, I play all kinds of specs, from NB stam tanks, lightning sorc, a weird ranger type medium sorc, a healer, and a stealthy NB. I enjoy all play styles, roles and variant skill sets.

What I don't like is having some specs unfairly ruined, in a bid to stop OTHER PEOPLE from spamming skill. The changes don't even achieve that, as none stam based spammers can still play this easy mode you talk of. Meanwhile, the vast majority of player not using spams are being penalized.

Zos need to target changes so that they increase fairness, and don't take away from the fun, these changes do neither.

Brutusmax1mus · May 2017

I know what you mean. I've got 12 characters, 12 different play styles. Adapting happens in mmos, i get it. But all of my builds need reworking. Years of playing, earning, working.

The worst part though, is how diverse the game was during 1 tamriel, and how much of that diversity got destroyed in this patch.

Also, please share your plan for PvP zos. If you plan on going no cp then say something.

ScytheNL · May 2017

I don't care what they change, I'm still sticking with my Stamblade.

Phinix1 · May 2017

Shadow_Viper_vX wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDMB-Bi27XQ

I know that at first, it can be scary losing easymode; fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate...

But it's going to be okay, just remember...

It's Fine, Learn to Play

Adapt and Overcome

I hear this over and over and while I get people are just trying to stay on the positivism bandwagon, I think this is a bit over-simplistic. Especially when you go saying things like the way things were was "easy mode" implying anyone who doesn't agree with you just can't hack the new super-challenging hold-down-the-button meta or is just whining because they are scared of change or something.

Sometimes people aren't against change because they are scared. Sometimes they are against change BECAUSE THE CHANGE IN QUESTION SUCKS. That is actually possible too, you know.

No one I know is complaining the changes make things difficult. They are complaining that tedious resource micro-management and forced heavy attack weaving simply throws off the flow of combat too much and doesn't feel very fun. More difficult would have been new monster mechanics, more dangerous enemies, that sort of thing.

Qbiken · May 2017

Shadow_Viper_vX wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDMB-Bi27XQ

I know that at first, it can be scary losing easymode; fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate...

But it's going to be okay, just remember...

It's Fine, Learn to Play

Adapt and Overcome

Personally it´s not about "L2P" or "git gut". Adaptation is not the problem (I can Always spend Another 3-4 weeks grinding the gear I need to addapt, but that´s no fun). As someone mention:

Phinix1 wrote: »

Agreed. The whole concept of forced heavy attack/tedious resource micro-management is lazy, short-sighted, and goes against the entire point of the game, which is TO HAVE FUN.

I hope they undo much of this terrible tunnel vision for the game they somehow got stuck on over the next months with re-rebalance patches.

And I don´t like people justifying the changes with arguments like:
- " Now you need to use your "skills" and no longer spam one button"
- " The amount of "skill" needed to be competetive in PvP and PvE was to low because of easy resource management was, and the infinite sustain was a problem, at least now you need skills......"

Like I don´t play the game to show of my "skills" (whatever skills is supposed to mean). I play to have fun, and heavyattack meta in PvE ain´t fun. If people were to say that the game is better now because it´s more fun to play compared to playing during "Homestead" or "1T" update, that would be a more legit argument than talking about "skills required" to play the game.

And tbh: A few weeks/months from now, trialguilds will faceroll through vHoF and will most likely have found ways to bypass mechanics by doing a lot of dps. Are we going to say the same thing then as ppl did Before this patch, that sustain and dmg is to big and nerf it once again.????

starkerealm · May 2017

Phinix1 wrote: »

I hear this over and over and while I get people are just trying to stay on the positivism bandwagon...

Or... it could be, some players have actually, you know, tested the changes, and found that in some cases it's actually an upgrade, not a nerf.

Phinix1 · May 2017

starkerealm wrote: »

Phinix1 wrote: »

I hear this over and over and while I get people are just trying to stay on the positivism bandwagon...

Or... it could be, some players have actually, you know, tested the changes, and found that in some cases it's actually an upgrade, not a nerf.

The proof is in the pudding my friend. If it ain't fun, I don't need some pro from Dover theory crafter to explain to me the nuances of how I am actually enjoying myself but just haven't realized yet.

The direct damage CP passive was a decent addition but aside from that, which really has nothing to do with the resource and class changes, pretty much all the new balance stuff has been really not very fun, and this is coming from someone that enjoyed the pre-nerf veteran zone difficulty more than the post, if you remember that far back.

I have never been a fan of "quick fix" artificial difficulty.