Can somebody explain what's the big deal with animation cancelling?

MehrunesFlagon · May 2017

So many have no clue whatsoever. More so a l2p issue.

ColoursYouHave · May 2017

I'm convinced that the vast majority of people who use the word "macro" in animation cancelling threads have no idea what a macro actually is. A macro cannot bypass global cooldowns, and if there is a bug that allows GCDs to be bypassed, it can be done without a macro.

There are legitimate arguments against animation cancelling, but macros are not one of them.

Edit: To expand further, the speed at which a character can attack is not limited by how quickly the player can press the inputs, but rather by an internal cooldown within the game. Humans are already capable of pressing inputs significantly faster than the internal cooldown allows, so using a program that allows you to submit inputs more quickly does not change the speed at which players can attack, meaning this whole idea of macros allowing people to attack some ridiculous number of times in one second is unequivocally false. The only things that could make that possible are latency, bugs, or "hacking" the game itself.

Dorrino · May 2017

Instant wrote: »

Just to let you know you got some numbers wrong:
1. Depends on weapon type: Destro is 700ms, 2H 950ms, ...

@Instant

Destro (and resto) is indeed ~700-750ms after release. But at least 1sec total (from 1st channel start to the 2nd channel start) is you release early.

2h is 1300ms cd between release and the next channel.

dw is 1000ms cd between release and the next channel.

etc.

1 sec was average value (and light attack value).

Instant wrote: »

1 sec is the minimum. Channeled abilities or abilities with a cast time have a longer cooldown. Dark Flare for example has a 1400ms cooldown. Cancelling a channel or an ability with a cast time gives you a 200ms global cooldown.

This is incorrect.

After a channeled ability was used there's indeed a 200-250ms cooldown.

If you cancel it early there's no cooldown whatsoever (sub 50ms). Obviously you need to cancel with something that doesn't start a cooldown:) Like block.

I assume your '1400ms cooldown' consisted of1100ms charge up and 250ms 'afterglow' cooldown.

Instant wrote: »

7. Bash cooldown is 700ms.

Bash cooldown is 400ms. That's why you can do 2 bashes in 1 sec window. I double checked.

Instant wrote: »

Weapon swap cooldown only prevents LA/HA to be fired.

Weaponswap prevents everything. You're correct though and different abilities have different cooldowns on a weaponswap. 500ms cd is applied to light/heavy attacks. Block is 100ms. Dodge/abilities are at ~200ms.

Dorrino · May 2017

dday3six wrote: »

You are not however getting 6 attacks in 1s, and 6 in 2s is just light attack-instant skill-bash x2.

All skills have a default 0.9s global cooldown. Marcos cannot by pass.

While you're correct, technically you can have 3 attacks (la+skill+bash) and 3 procs to fire at the same time:)

Though i'd also would love to hear 'how to put 6 attacks into 1-2 second window'. 2 sec is easy. 1 sec is impossible.

Avran_Sylt · May 2017

@Dorrino

Depending in the skill, and your enchantments, you can actually get in more than 6 damage instances in at the same time. Take Twin slashes as an example:

LA(procs main hand usually)+Twin Slashes(two direct damage instances)(procs off hand 100% of the time while it's off cooldown)+Bash will yeild 4 Direct damage instances as a result of weapon abilities, with a total of (LA+Ench1+Ench2+TwinSlash1+TwinSlash2+Bash+ProcSet1+ProcSet2+MonsterHelm) 9 damage instances possible in one GCD. 10 if you use flurry (but lose shield bash and the other enchantment proc as flurry only procs the main hand enchantment).

Force shock, which is 3 separate instances of Direct Damage, can perform LA+FS+Bash, yielding 5 damage instances from weapon abilities, and can achieve a maximum of 8 damage instances, even more if elemental procs occur on the target from your encahntment/LA/FS, and against an npc more damage instances can occur if one of the elemental procs is an element the npc is weak against.

ColoursYouHave · May 2017

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Dorrino

Depending in the skill, and your enchantments, you can actually get in more than 6 damage instances in at the same time. Take Twin slashes as an example:

LA(procs main hand usually)+Twin Slashes(two direct damage instances)(procs off hand 100% of the time while it's off cooldown)+Bash will yeild 4 Direct damage instances as a result of weapon abilities, with a total of (LA+Ench1+Ench2+TwinSlash1+TwinSlash2+Bash+ProcSet1+ProcSet2+MonsterHelm) 9 damage instances possible in one GCD. 10 if you use flurry (but lose shield bash and the other enchantment proc as flurry only procs the main hand enchantment).

Force shock, which is 3 separate instances of Direct Damage, can perform LA+FS+Bash, yielding 5 damage instances from weapon abilities, and can achieve a maximum of 8 damage instances, even more if elemental procs occur on the target from your encahntment/LA/FS, and against an npc more damage instances can occur if one of the elemental procs is an element the npc is weak against.

While you're technically correct, within the context of the original post being about using macros to use multiple attacks in rapid succession, I think it is safe to assume that the poster was referring to 6 different sources of damage rather than 6 instances of damage.

Dorrino · May 2017

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Dorrino

Depending in the skill, and your enchantments, you can actually get in more than 6 damage instances in at the same time. Take Twin slashes as an example:

LA(procs main hand usually)+Twin Slashes(two direct damage instances)(procs off hand 100% of the time while it's off cooldown)+Bash will yeild 4 Direct damage instances as a result of weapon abilities, with a total of (LA+Ench1+Ench2+TwinSlash1+TwinSlash2+Bash+ProcSet1+ProcSet2+MonsterHelm) 9 damage instances possible in one GCD. 10 if you use flurry (but lose shield bash and the other enchantment proc as flurry only procs the main hand enchantment).

Force shock, which is 3 separate instances of Direct Damage, can perform LA+FS+Bash, yielding 5 damage instances from weapon abilities, and can achieve a maximum of 8 damage instances, even more if elemental procs occur on the target from your encahntment/LA/FS, and against an npc more damage instances can occur if one of the elemental procs is an element the npc is weak against.

@Avran_Sylt

Oh yeah. Dual wield heavies also are registered as 2 attacks:D

So yeah, dual wield heavy (2) + skill (say 1) + bash (1) + poison proc (1-2) + viper(1) + red mountain(1) + Veli(1) = 8-9 attacks at the same time:D

AFAIK 'Ench1+Ench2' can't proc at the same time. Might be wrong though.

ColoursYouHave wrote: »

While you're technically correct, within the context of the original post being about using macros to use multiple attacks in rapid succession, I think it is safe to assume that the poster was referring to 6 different sources of damage rather than 6 instances of damage.

You're correct.

The OP is not going to explain how people macro though (they never can), so we're having some fun in the meantime:)

Juhasow · May 2017

Jollygoodusername wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

Jollygoodusername wrote: »

"Like I said calling it a bug is late and exaggerated."

I'm sorry but it's never to late to solve a bug, though it's best to focus on severity, better late than never. This game is, as i've said before, in cash grab cruise control. Most MMO's do this, at least the ones that aren't as involved in their community, they've built the house, paid the contractors/developers and now it's sold, time to collect interest for the next 2 decades if possible >_<

If developer embrace that bug shortly after it's revealed and calling it feature then telling it's a bug 3 years later is late and exaggerated. It's part of game mechanic now. Accept that.

Failing to fix the pathing, falling through the map and walls constantly for the last 3 years, hell they embraced it, so this too is a mechanic we should all get used to? Get used to the locked dialog interaction bug and all the others from 3 years ago, still being reported in the bug forum.

No thanks! Better to fix them all as soon as possible, better late than never.

Does developers mentioned atleast once that they embrace examples mentioned by You ? No.
Does they mentioned they're working on fixing it ? Yes
Does developers mentioned they embrace animation cancelling ? Yes
Does they mentioned they'll work on fixing it ? No

See the differences ?

There are non fixed bugs and bugs that becamed a features. I posted earlier examples of bugs , cheats and exploits that becamed features that are now so common You couldnt imagine games without them. If developers decides to keep mechanic that was unintentional but is fun to play and enjoying it's no longer a bug. Most people problem is the fact developers said officialy it was unintentional mechanic. Let's be honest if they wouldnt say that 99% of QQers would loose main argument to be agaisnt animation cancelling.

Just stop calling animation cancelling a bug. It's was a bug at development stage but it's part of game mechanic now. You dont like it ? Well noone keeps You in ESO by force.

Instant · May 2017

Dorrino wrote: »

Bash cooldown is 400ms. That's why you can do 2 bashes in 1 sec window. I double checked.

@Dorrino LA/HA and ability cooldown after bash is 700ms. Not sure about bash/bash cooldown.

May i ask how you are measuring cooldowns?

Galwylin · May 2017

My takeaway is animation cancelling sounds a bit like that easy mode so many were thrilled Morrowind was doing away with. I don't like it myself, it looks bad and animations should be tied to abilities. Why design a game and not tie the animations to the ability? That makes no sense to me. You've essentially just designed animations for no purpose. Like designing horses only to just have the character run fast when used. But I agree its not going anywhere. ZOS would need to make changes and we already no if it means more work then its less likely to ever happen. I swear you'd think the light bill was a few months behind.

Dorrino · May 2017

Instant wrote: »

@Dorrino LA/HA and ability cooldown after bash is 700ms. Not sure about bash/bash cooldown.

May i ask how you are measuring cooldowns?

@Instant

Ok, so i performed more thorough measurements:)

Before i used zgoo events and measured distance between events manually.

Now i decided to add GetSlotCooldownInfo. I didn't do it before because my previous experience with it showed a number of inconsistencies. For instance bash/dodge/block themselves are not slotted abilities so i couldn't measure their cd using GetSlotCooldownInfo.

Anyways, i was wrong on couple accounts here. The system is more complicated that i assumed.

So this is what i have now:

1. Light Attacks.

Light Attacks have a separate cooldown (separate from everything including heavy attacks). I was wrong by lumping them with heavies.

Light attacks cooldown starts when light/heavy/ability/bash/dodge starts.

2. Heavy Attacks.

Heavy attack specific cooldown starts when heavy attack ends. Or when light/ability/bash/dodge starts.

3. Ability.

Normal ability starts light/heavy/ability cooldowns for 1000ms.

Channeled ability that doesn't do damage during the channel (like snipe, dark flare) starts light/heavy/ability cooldowns as well, but if you cancel the channel using block all those cooldowns get reset (that's why i didn't trust GetSlotCooldownInfo).
After a channeled ability that doesn't do damage during the channel fires it starts light/heavy/ability cooldowns for 200ms.

Channeled ability that does damage during the channel starts a 1 sec (it's weird since it consists of 2 cooldowns) cooldown on light/heavy/ability. If you cancel it the cooldown still stays. Some of these abilities (short duration ones, like rapid strikes and jabs) do not start 200ms cooldown after they end. Longer ones do start it in addition to 1sec channel cooldown.

4. Bash.

I was wrong that bash had a consistent cooldown.

So bash itself has a cooldown of 350ms with another bash (measured by EVENT_ABILITY_COOLDOWN_UPDATED).

Additionally bash starts a light/heavy/ability cooldown of 700ms.

5. Dodge.

Dodge starts light/heavy/ability/bash/dodge cooldown of 1000ms.

6. Weapon Swap.

It starts 500ms light/heavy cooldown explicitly. But abilities are not available for a short time as well. I didn't manage to fire an ability faster than 200ms from the moment weaponswap starts. Measured manually with zgoo events. May be the latency.

Now to the actual values for light/heavy attacks cooldowns for different weapons (light attack cooldown starts when you start light/heavy attack, heavy attack cooldown starts when heavy attack fires):

1. Two hander.

Light Attack Cooldown: 950ms
Heavy Attack Cooldown: 1200ms
Wind-up time: 800ms

2. Dual-wield.

Light Attack Cooldown: 725ms
Heavy Attack Cooldown: 900ms
Wind-up time: 650ms

3. One hander and shield.

Light Attack Cooldown: 740ms
Heavy Attack Cooldown: 1000ms
Wind-up time: 750ms

4. Bow.

Light Attack Cooldown: 600ms
Heavy Attack Cooldown: 1000ms
Wind-up time: 1350ms

5. Fire/Ice Destruction staves.

Light Attack Cooldown: 700ms
Heavy Attack Cooldown: 700ms
Wind-up time: 1400ms

6. Lightning Destruction staff.

Light Attack Cooldown: 700ms
Heavy Attack Cooldown: 600ms
Wind-up time: 1800ms

7. Restoration staff.

Light Attack Cooldown: 700ms
Heavy Attack Cooldown: 600ms
Wind-up time: 1600ms

All values are on current Morrowind PTS so they will be valid after the patch.