"Play as you want" Ramblings and Ideas.

Silver_Strider · May 2017

As many are well aware of, this phrase has been tossed around since the inception of ESO. Promises of being able to play any class in any way and still remain effective. It didn't take long though before this little phrase was completely debunked as false as anyone with half a brain could clearly see that some classes were better suited in certain roles over others. The problem with the game isn't that you can't play X class as Y role, the problem is that X class is less effective at Y role than Z class. Why play a Sorc Tank or NB Healer when DK Tanks and Templar healers are much more effective? The Devs have made it quite apparent that they wanted specific classes to excel at these roles which begs the question, why did they advertise the game as "Play as you want" when they themselves state that some classes are just better at these roles than others? It's just false advertisement, plan and simple.

In order for "Play as you want" to hold some semblance of truth, each class would have to be built with their own method of Tanking/Healing/DPSing that was equal in nature to one another but that would create a very shallow experience overall because then all classes "feel" the same. Say if every class had it's own method of bringing adds together.

DK has chains
NB had a trap or charm effect that lured enemies towards them
Templar had an ability that just encased enemies together (Think a giant Eclipse bubble surrounding multiple mobs and the bubble shrinking so enemies were huddled up)
Sorc's had their pets just grab people and drag them together.

Then, every tank would have there round up skill on their bar, fire it off as needed and be on their merry way. The methodology of the skills would be different but the general function would be the exact same, destroying the sense of uniqueness everyone is so fixated on with their class. Same problem would occur in healing or support or DPS; no sense of uniqueness. Then we go on over to the PvP side of things and it becomes exceedingly dull because you know what you enemy can do because you can do the same thing in essence. ZOS shot themselves in the foot with "Play as you want" because they simply cannot deliver on this promise without stripping the classes of their identity (granted I personally believe the classes don't really have an identity to start with). That doesn't mean, however, that the game still can't be made to where "Pay as you want" is actually possible and without offsetting the balance of the game

The best thing would be to make each class offer something more unique than the cheap minor buffs they currently give and actually make them actually unique in their approach to their role with actual pros and cons to each. Letting Templar be healers and DK's be tanks is fine but make it so that other options are viable and unique.

Let DK be Mitigation Tanks so they can take a beating, NB be the debuff tank to make enemies less effective, Templars be buff tanks to improve party efficiency, Sorc's could be the damage tank that is slightly squishier than the others but pumps out more damage to compensate. Healers would follow a similar styling in that they could be made to complement a different tanking style. A DK mitigation healer might be better suited to having a NB HoT healer than a Templar Burst Healer as they might not require as much healing. A Sorcerer Tank might be better paired with a DK Shield Healer to help mitigate their low defenses. That isn't to say that you can't have other tank/healer combinations and they could work just as well, just make it so that whatever the combination is, that it's effective enough to be competitive.

Another way to give classes unique identities would be to give classes' skills that benefit everyone. Give Sorcerer the only method of getting Major Magicka Steal for the group, Templars can have Major Stamina Steal, NBs can have a Major Vulnerability Debuff and DKs can have Major Protection buff. The Minor versions of these skills should still be available from generic skill tress, such as the Mages or Fighter's Guild but make these Major version class specific so that every class is given a useful purpose in any group setting. The Minor versions being generic also makes it so that if a class isn't present for whatever reason, their benefit isn't entirely lost to a group as they can still get the minor version of that class' benefit if they so choose to do so.

Making Orbs return stamina opens the door for other Healers to be on more equal footing as Templars but doesn't completely bridge this gap either as Templars still have the outright best tools for healing. If anything, I would rework the entire Undaunted Skill Line to be more of a generic group buff system so that everyone can benefit from it. Make Blood Altar give Minor Stamina and Magicka steal, let Bone shield give Minor Mending, swap Inner Fire to the Fighter's Guild skill line and Circle of Protection to Undaunted and make it give Minor Protection to the group, with maybe a small HoT attached.

The hardest part of all this would be to make DPS viable in their own ways without any 1 class completely overshadowing the rest ( *cough* Sorc *cough*) but if a good balance could be found, then the game would be infinitely better IMO. If NB tanks are the debuffer Tank and the HoT Healer, what sort of place does a NB DPS have? Why not having them be the support DPS? Have them grant skills that benefit the group in alternative means that what a Templar Healer can do. What if shades could be used to teleport any player, instead of just the NB (Imagine how useful it would be in something like Banished Cells 2 when a player has the bubble DoT and a NB could just teleport them to the correct pad immediately)? What if Blur allowed a group mate a guaranteed Dodge chance for 1 hard hitting skills (would have an absurdly high cost to prevent spamming obviously)? I'm just spitballing ideas and rambling for the most part but I just wanted to post this as sort of a constructive view on how the game could really be "Play as you want" without it being a total fallacy.

Comments?
Ideas?
Insults?
TL;DR?

Edit: I want to say, I'm not saying that a Bow Healer, No taunt tank, 5k DPS, etc. should be made viable. I'm saying that equally skilled players that have a well thought out build should be given equal opportunity in End Game content, regardless of class.

NewBlacksmurf · May 2017

No....it doesn't read or imply play any class any way you want AND still remain effective.

NEVER has anything wrote nor has any dev said that.
People have argued that but it's cause they made it up in their own minds taking pieces of comments and statements or just took someone's word for it without researching it for the,selves.

They said you can choose to play anyway you want (subject to the ingame choices available)

The original article talks about it here

How important will the 'holy trinity' be in PvE endgame/raids? Will dedicated tanks and healers be required, or will lighter armored characters be able to utilize the dodge system well enough to serve as competent tanks? Will healers need to focus entirely on healing, or will a more offensive spellcaster be able to sustain his group via spot heals? – By Lynx

Let’s have some fun here. This is what one of our internal testers sent out on Wednesday, February 27th. This email is unedited other than removing the ending of the letter which would sound a little too self-congratulatory of the tester.

Yesterday in the lunchtime dungeon test, our group of four (all at level 12) included:
· 1 Templar with light armor and healing staff, abilities focusing on healing
· 1 Templar with light armor and dual wield, Templar abilities focusing on healing
· 1 Dragonknight with light armor and destruction staff
· 1 Sorcerer with heavy armor and dual wield
This was with no real consultation with each other while making characters, other than ensuring there was at least one healer. For the sake of the dungeon we really could have used a true tank (the closest we had was the sorcerer wearing heavy armor and using unstable familiar to get the monster’s attention, with no real “keep myself alive” abilities), but as a group we were (eventually) able to take down the Fungal Grotto bosses. More to the point, with four players making independent choices in abilities and gear, three of the four made builds that defied the standard templates – and yet felt perfectly viable in actual play. The players were each able to build a character to their own taste with class abilities as a supplement, rather than the rigid defining aspect to the character, and have effective characters.

So in summation, we’re pretty happy watching the progression system allow people to play the way they want in the groups they want to play in.

Ghettokid · May 2017

Mm I think that what they said was "Play as orc wants" not "play as you want"

laksikus · May 2017

like blacksmurf said.
you can play any way you like, like zos promised.

nobody ever told you that you will be effective any way you want

idk · May 2017

@Silver_Strider

Play as you want has always been part of the game, still is. Play as you want has never meant being just as effective as any other build.

It's illogical to think that any random build would pull as much dps as a well thought out build.

As for classes. Play as you want doesn't mean equally effective. Devs have even stated this. However, since at least 3 of the classes have tanked clears of vMoL HM it's clear different classes can do the different roles.

Edit: vMoL HM is the most challenging PvE group content on the live servers.

For healers in the top content Templars are preferential by t that doesn't mean other classes cannot get the job done. Heck, back when trial scores were time based the first sub 60 minute vDSA run used a Sorc healer which proves the point.

So yes, each class can perform each role just fine though some have an edge and there is nothing wrong with that.

itehache · May 2017

You can play any race you want, any class you want, in any possible combination you want. The possibility is there.

You can create a stamina khajit healer that uses a two hand sword if you want to, however do not expect to be competitive.

Just for questing and some PVE overworld pretty much any build works. This changes when you get into group content and end game content, but it does make sense that some combinations will be better than others.

STEVIL · May 2017

"As many are well aware of, this phrase has been tossed around since the inception of ESO. Promises of being able to play any class in any way and still remain effective. "

No such promises were made, as others have pointed out.

The implementation is any class can perform adequately in any role if built well and played well, not that any class at any time can play any way and be effective. that is nonsense created from creative and possibly intentional misreading.

"The problem with the game isn't that you can't play X class as Y role, the problem is that X class is less effective at Y role than Z class."

That is not a problem, nor does it violate the play as you want. being effective is not the same thing as "being as effective as any other".

but any class can perform any role adequately for most all the content and most all the difficulties - tho if one is going after hard mode leaderboard top scores, some choices will be better than others.

None of which violates either the letter or the spirit of these promises.

QuebraRegra · May 2017

play as you want died with the removal of caps.

exeeter702 · May 2017

Sorry but you are greatly misguided in your belief as to what "play how you want" actually means in this game.

That mantra simply refers to the notion that a player can peice together any setup and enjoy the game at the most basic level. For example if you want to be a holy magic using bow wizard, you are more then able to. At no point did the devs ever suggest that any class skill makeup can be viable in an endgame environment. The snowflake builds are simply allowed in some form for a casual approach to the game, is as simple as that and that fact remains true to this day.

The mantra is NOT in any way related to the class / role design. That is an entirely separate discussion. Your assessment of non templar healers and non dk tanks is incredibly disingenuous and suggest you don't understand how a nb or dk healer for example compares to a templar. I'll give you a little insight - outgoing heals between them are on par with templar, this has always been the case. Stam utility was the deciding factor.

Again there are many examples I could give between the various and intentional healing tools and tanking tools given to each of the classes but I won't here. Non dk tanks and non templar healers have cleared vmol hm. Just understand that the play as you want approach has nothing to do with class role design and everything to do with making up a build within the games limitations and playing it in some capacity.

Tandor · May 2017

Just to clarify what that which is commonly described as "Play as you want" actually referred to:-

On the back of the original box the heading "Play the way you like" was followed by "Adventure alone or together with friends. The choice is yours to make."

On the back of the One Tamriel box the same heading was followed by "Battle, craft, fish, steal, siege, or explore. The choice is yours to make in a persistent Elder Scrolls world."

I haven't yet seen a Morrowind box but doubt it will be much different.

Nowhere did the phrase ever suggest you can play any class, race or build/gear equally effectively for either PvE or PvP, whether solo, group or in trials which is what people seem to want it to mean

!

Silver_Strider · May 2017

@NewBlacksmurf

That article really holds no weight anymore as that was written where Soft Caps were a thing, where Vampire Light Armor DK was largley OP and could effectively dominate anything and everything with all other classes being utterly useless except Templars as healers, and where there was no CP. Just because the Devs have said it was possible back then, doesn't mean it applies now, just like several other statements made by ZOS at those times that no longer rings true (ESO will remain sub based, they'll be no cash shop, etc.)

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

I'm not arguing that a Bow wielding healer should be as effective as a Resto staff healer. I'm arguing that other classes be given tools that allow them to prefer their desired role on an equal vein as one another but thru entirely different means. I'm asking that a DK can be a Healer, with the same level of support as a Templar, but has it's own tools that set it apart from Templars in its methodology of healing. The examples throughout my posting state this much so I'm going out on a limb and saying you didn't read the entire article.

@STEVIL

You're correct that it doesn't violate Play as you want but it does punish you for it. You can clear any end game content with any class with the proper skill, build etc but you are punished for doing it by not being competitive enough to compare to the "Meta" especially considering that it requires putting in much more effort to be effective. How is that fair on any level? How do you defend that? How does putting in more effort to accomplish something mean less reward than putting less effort? If I wrote an essay explaining the complex mathematical equations required to conduct thermal nuclear fusion and someone else just wrote 2+2=4 and they got an A while I got a C, how would that make any sense?

@exeeter702

Cleared all content, except vMoL, on a NB healer. I'm well aware of the differences between the classes and I'm arguing that the differences between the roles shouldn't be so exponential that it completely shuts out other classes in those roles because they can't do X as effectively as one other, in this case being that other classes can't restore stamina as effectively as Templars. I'm saying that other classes should be given tools so that they can perform their selected role effectively but have their own unique blend of it. All classes can now restore Stamina or Magic to a group, great. But what do the other classes bring to the that a Templar can't? Nothing. Templars still have the only AoE Magicka steal, best burst heal, can give back both stamina and magic via shards whereas the others can only give back 1 or the other via orbs, have a cheaper purge that also acts as an AoE HoT/DoT snare effect. Let DK healers have shield effects that protect their allies, buff them to do more damage, etc. Let NB healers reduce the damage enemies do. That's what I'm arguing for.

Why is everyone so hell bent on keeping the Meta game the exact same?
Can anyone give me a solid answer other than "Play as you want doesn't mean so and so?"

Magdalina · May 2017

They never ever should have said that gods cursed phrase. The amount of harm it's caused to the game is insurmountable. I understand it was a great marketing motto and the idea was awesome...in theory. In practice, it's become a cheap cop out for anyone wanting the game to bend to his and only his(or her) whims. You see a tank with 17k health and no taunt in a vet dungeon, you ask him to at least get a taunt...and get told to f*** off, he's playing how he wants. You see a dps doing 5k dps because he's alternating hardcast frags with bow light attacks while the other dps is spamming jesus beam (and that's all), this results in group's death because the whopping 10k group's dps was not enough to pass a dps check and try to give them some pointers but get told to shut up and focus on healing because they're playing how they want. You see this drove of "please nerf this skill/boss/whatever because I died to it" crowd on the forums, crying until ZOS nerfs skills and whole classes into uselessness and try to explain to them how to counter what killed them, how to adapt and overcome yet get told you're an elitist jerk and they're playing how they want, which in their opinion should include roflstomping all of the game's content naked and using fists for weapons.

You can choose how to do things but some things will always be more effective than others, that's normal, that's how it works irl too. Nothing wrong with that. Only way to avoid it whatsoever is to remove all the skills but one and make everyone use it...there, everyone equal, no one's better than the other. No diversity or choices either though.

You can also never fully "play how you want" in a group acitivity. And this is an MMO, which means some parts of it at least feature group acitivity. If a football team needs a goal keeper and you volunteer but then run off chasing the ball(or better yet, just stand there and dance because you prefer dancing to football) you're going to get kicked. Because nothing wrong with it on its own but they needed a goal keeper and if you don't want to/can't be one, sorry, you don't get to play this round.
It's actually not horrible at all, on the contrary, it opens up so many interesting combinations. You can't choose absolutely anything you want but you can choose whatever as long as between you and your team you make a functional whole. Like finding pieces of a puzzle. There's no joy in a puzzle if all the pieces are the same and fit everywhere.

I'm just so frustrated of hearing this "play how you want" thing>.<
/rantover

NewBlacksmurf · May 2017

Silver_Strider wrote: »

@NewBlacksmurf

That article really holds no weight anymore as that was written where Soft Caps were a thing, where Vampire Light Armor DK was largley OP and could effectively dominate anything and everything with all other classes being utterly useless except Templars as healers, and where there was no CP. Just because the Devs have said it was possible back then, doesn't mean it applies now, just like several other statements made by ZOS at those times that no longer rings true (ESO will remain sub based, they'll be no cash shop, etc.)"

@Silver_Strider

That's your opinion and my observation from your comments is your basis lacks or is without the origin of its context.
The article is the exact and original context to what the topic identifies.

Technically, the article and its merit never changes, however, each players opinion on the phrase "play as you want" unfortunately often lack any context, understanding as well as the origin or is based on someone else who adds their opinion onto the original comments.

There are YouTube interviews still up where Matt talks about this and you can add his voice inflection and body language which helps understand he's talking about player choice which still exists as it did before.

Changes have come but...the game still offers each player uninhibited choices to play as you want...in context to the origin. This has no bearing on anything other than choices of weapons, armor and skill assignments on the bars. The class has limits but in context, the classes aren't limited to any of the holy trinity so while some can perform more effectively than others, their context is choice not effectiveness.

It still applies today

ADarklore · May 2017

So, not only gone is the 'personal responsibility' from people, because now everything is always someone else's fault... but also now gone is the, "you can't twist something into your own interpretation and blame someone else for it not being what you chose to interpret it to mean". *sigh*

NewBlacksmurf · May 2017

ADarklore wrote: »

So, not only gone is the 'personal responsibility' from people, because now everything is always someone else's fault... but also now gone is the, "you can't twist something into your own interpretation and blame someone else for it not being what you chose to interpret it to mean". *sigh*

Thank you

Zardayne · May 2017

Last night a friend and I were talking about the diversity in builds that would happen if they opened all of the classes skill trees and you could only pick 3 at a time. Kind of like Rift did the class souls. Sure there would be the favorites and cookie cutter builds but we have them now so really whats the difference? Then you could choose what spammable you wanted, what healing style you wanted, etc. Then you could play as you want..

Silver_Strider · May 2017

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

@NewBlacksmurf

That article really holds no weight anymore as that was written where Soft Caps were a thing, where Vampire Light Armor DK was largley OP and could effectively dominate anything and everything with all other classes being utterly useless except Templars as healers, and where there was no CP. Just because the Devs have said it was possible back then, doesn't mean it applies now, just like several other statements made by ZOS at those times that no longer rings true (ESO will remain sub based, they'll be no cash shop, etc.)"

@Silver_Strider

That's your opinion and my observation from your comments is your basis lacks or is without the origin of its context.
The article is the exact and original context to what the topic identifies.

Technically, the article and its merit never changes, however, each players opinion on the phrase "play as you want" unfortunately often lack any context, understanding as well as the origin or is based on someone else who adds their opinion onto the original comments.

There are YouTube interviews still up where Matt talks about this and you can add his voice inflection and body language which helps understand he's talking about player choice which still exists as it did before.

Changes have come but...the game still offers each players uninhibited choices to play as you want...in context to the origin. This has no bearing on anything other than choices of weapons, armor and skill assignments on the bars. The class has limits but in context, the classes aren't limited to any of the holy trinity so while some can perform more effectively than others, their context is choice not effectiveness.

It still applies today

The problem being that the game punishes you for it though. I've cleared plenty of end game content as a NB tank and as a NB healer but regardless of how skilled I was, I felt as though I was being constantly punished for doing so as I could never be as effective as a DK or Templar in the same vein. I couldn't keep mobs together effectively (Swarm Mother and Sap essense helped but still not as effective as chains and talons) nor restore Stamina to the group as effectively as a Templar (despite my Gold Master Resto staff and grand healing spam).

No one shouldn't feel punished for playing a certain class.

idk · May 2017

@Silver_Strider

Your argument as to how you to to what you want is based in fantasy. Once again, Zos has never said all classes are equally yoked in all roles. Zos has specifically said they want some classes to be better set for some roles, but that doesn't mean disparaging different.

To your point of a dk being able to heal with the same level of support as a Templar. They should be different. It would be boring if they were the same. However, the DK will have more a ailable to them with the expansion

Further, I have run vet trials with a DK healed. The Templar was the main healer and the run went fine. Even with the changes that are coming I'd still prefer a Templar for a variety of reasons, when doing progression.

As I pointed out previously classes have cleared the most challenging group PvE content in the game (maybe all 4).

It's a credit to the play any class in any role is working well.

DMuehlhausen · May 2017

Pretty much stopped after debunked.

You can play how you want. It's your choice to follow the meta builds. You can do all the solo content in the game with any build you want and any gear. You could probably even get through any dungeon. Obviously some would be really hard to do, but it would probably be possible as long as you understand the mechanics.

Stop thinking just because one person out there who does nothing but crunch numbers on skills and weapons for damage output that their idea and build is the only possible way to play a game.

SneaK · May 2017

Probably going to level a Sentinel Titan first.

NewBlacksmurf · May 2017

Silver_Strider wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

@NewBlacksmurf

That article really holds no weight anymore as that was written where Soft Caps were a thing, where Vampire Light Armor DK was largley OP and could effectively dominate anything and everything with all other classes being utterly useless except Templars as healers, and where there was no CP. Just because the Devs have said it was possible back then, doesn't mean it applies now, just like several other statements made by ZOS at those times that no longer rings true (ESO will remain sub based, they'll be no cash shop, etc.)"

@Silver_Strider

That's your opinion and my observation from your comments is your basis lacks or is without the origin of its context.
The article is the exact and original context to what the topic identifies.

Technically, the article and its merit never changes, however, each players opinion on the phrase "play as you want" unfortunately often lack any context, understanding as well as the origin or is based on someone else who adds their opinion onto the original comments.

There are YouTube interviews still up where Matt talks about this and you can add his voice inflection and body language which helps understand he's talking about player choice which still exists as it did before.

Changes have come but...the game still offers each players uninhibited choices to play as you want...in context to the origin. This has no bearing on anything other than choices of weapons, armor and skill assignments on the bars. The class has limits but in context, the classes aren't limited to any of the holy trinity so while some can perform more effectively than others, their context is choice not effectiveness.

It still applies today

The problem being that the game punishes you for it though. I've cleared plenty of end game content as a NB tank and as a NB healer but regardless of how skilled I was, I felt as though I was being constantly punished for doing so as I could never be as effective as a DK or Templar in the same vein. I couldn't keep mobs together effectively (Swarm Mother and Sap essense helped but still not as effective as chains and talons) nor restore Stamina to the group as effectively as a Templar (despite my Gold Master Resto staff and grand healing spam).

No one shouldn't feel punished for playing a certain class.

@Silver_Strider

Honest question.....
Should open choice be absent of cause and effect?

And if so, how do you define choice?

Silver_Strider · May 2017

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

@NewBlacksmurf

That article really holds no weight anymore as that was written where Soft Caps were a thing, where Vampire Light Armor DK was largley OP and could effectively dominate anything and everything with all other classes being utterly useless except Templars as healers, and where there was no CP. Just because the Devs have said it was possible back then, doesn't mean it applies now, just like several other statements made by ZOS at those times that no longer rings true (ESO will remain sub based, they'll be no cash shop, etc.)"

@Silver_Strider

That's your opinion and my observation from your comments is your basis lacks or is without the origin of its context.
The article is the exact and original context to what the topic identifies.

Technically, the article and its merit never changes, however, each players opinion on the phrase "play as you want" unfortunately often lack any context, understanding as well as the origin or is based on someone else who adds their opinion onto the original comments.

There are YouTube interviews still up where Matt talks about this and you can add his voice inflection and body language which helps understand he's talking about player choice which still exists as it did before.

Changes have come but...the game still offers each players uninhibited choices to play as you want...in context to the origin. This has no bearing on anything other than choices of weapons, armor and skill assignments on the bars. The class has limits but in context, the classes aren't limited to any of the holy trinity so while some can perform more effectively than others, their context is choice not effectiveness.

It still applies today

The problem being that the game punishes you for it though. I've cleared plenty of end game content as a NB tank and as a NB healer but regardless of how skilled I was, I felt as though I was being constantly punished for doing so as I could never be as effective as a DK or Templar in the same vein. I couldn't keep mobs together effectively (Swarm Mother and Sap essense helped but still not as effective as chains and talons) nor restore Stamina to the group as effectively as a Templar (despite my Gold Master Resto staff and grand healing spam).

No one shouldn't feel punished for playing a certain class.

@Silver_Strider

Honest question.....
Should open choice be absent of cause and effect?

And if so, how do you define choice?

@NewBlacksmurf
Open choice shouldn't be absent of cause and effect but the way it currently is makes both the cause and effect negative if you play a certain class a certain way.

Because I picked a NB/Sorc/Templar tank, I'm going to have a harder time than a DK tank. That is the cause and effect of that scenario but even after overcoming that initial struggle of learning and honing your skills to be effective, the pay off is the exact same, mediocrity. Nothing I can do will ever change that so why did I spend all that time/effort being a good tank when it's always going to be the same result?

It's one of my biggest issues with ESO honestly. It's not fun going thru the weeks, months, etc of learning everything, grinding all the skills, gear, etc just to be told that it's all for nothing in the end, you'll never be as competitive as so and so.

Keep_Door · May 2017

Where does it say "play how you want and remain effective" ?

Balamoor · May 2017

This is how I approach it, remember kids your mileage may vary.

I believe that you should play any class anyway you want, as long as that way doesn't infringe on the group. I run dungeons and Trails with my guild we are all old School TES players and are all cool with players playing however they want, we haven't had any issues yet and if we did we would just adjust and move on.

But that isn't going to work if you're in a pug or a hyper competitive raiding guild and it's kinda selfish to show up and say "accept me as I am"

If you want to play the way I do, there are guilds that are fine with that, you won't get yelled at, you will probably meet some great folks and have a better time playing ESO, but if you are going to roll with the serious raiders (which I admit is sorta silly in ESO because this is about as much as raid game as Checkers) then you're going to have to adopt certain standards and adhere to certain expectations, and if you think about it...it's only fair.

Magdalina · May 2017

Zardayne wrote: »

Last night a friend and I were talking about the diversity in builds that would happen if they opened all of the classes skill trees and you could only pick 3 at a time. Kind of like Rift did the class souls. Sure there would be the favorites and cookie cutter builds but we have them now so really whats the difference? Then you could choose what spammable you wanted, what healing style you wanted, etc. Then you could play as you want..

Well now there's at least 1, maybe 2, meta builds for every class. That way we'd have 1 meta for everyone (with obvious distinction of roles). And it'd be so grossly overpowered you would in fact be unable to play how you want whatsoever because there'd be no competing with this meta even remotely. ZOS would also have to rebalance the content so that new omnipotent demigods don't fall asleep soloing vet dungeons and trials, which would make the content impossible for anyone else. I know I'm kind of exaggerating but not that much I think.

It sounds kind of bland I think. More bland than what we have now.

Silver_Strider · May 2017

Balamoor wrote: »

This is how I approach it, remember kids your mileage may vary.

I believe that you should play any class anyway you want, as long as that way doesn't infringe on the group. I run dungeons and Trails with my guild we are all old School TES players and are all cool with players playing however they want, we haven't had any issues yet and if we did we would just adjust and move on.

But that isn't going to work if you're in a pug or a hyper competitive raiding guild and it's kinda selfish to show up and say "accept me as I am"

If you want to play the way I do, there are guilds that are fine with that, you won't get yelled at, you will probably meet some great folks and have a better time playing ESO, but if you are going to roll with the serious raiders (which I admit is sorta silly in ESO because this is about as much as raid game as Checkers) then you're going to have to adopt certain standards and adhere to certain expectations, and if you think about it...it's only fair.

Is it really fair though?
If you put the time and effort into making a class work in a certain role but still can't compete, is it truly fair?

It isn't about being able to just complete content but to actually make it worth doing it a certain way. That's all I'm asking for.

Balamoor · May 2017

Silver_Strider wrote: »

Balamoor wrote: »

This is how I approach it, remember kids your mileage may vary.

I believe that you should play any class anyway you want, as long as that way doesn't infringe on the group. I run dungeons and Trails with my guild we are all old School TES players and are all cool with players playing however they want, we haven't had any issues yet and if we did we would just adjust and move on.

But that isn't going to work if you're in a pug or a hyper competitive raiding guild and it's kinda selfish to show up and say "accept me as I am"

If you want to play the way I do, there are guilds that are fine with that, you won't get yelled at, you will probably meet some great folks and have a better time playing ESO, but if you are going to roll with the serious raiders (which I admit is sorta silly in ESO because this is about as much as raid game as Checkers) then you're going to have to adopt certain standards and adhere to certain expectations, and if you think about it...it's only fair.

Is it really fair though?
If you put the time and effort into making a class work in a certain role but still can't compete, is it truly fair?

It isn't about being able to just complete content but to actually make it worth doing it a certain way. That's all I'm asking for.

I think questions like that are best left to philosophers....you really can't force these guys to accept you, they are locked into their own narrow vision.....I'm just saying after being on both sides of the fence since EQ, life is better if you're playing with folks that are like-minded, no matter which way you play.

exeeter702 · May 2017

@Silver_Strider Ok hold on. There is a bit of confusion, as I don't want you to think I share the logic that many people on the forums do. I am very much in the minority here...

All in saying is that the description that ZOS used for how new players can approach this game has little to do with how proper builds function in end game.

There are the small group of players that understand why Templars were always the strongest healer, the reason being that they had exclusive access to a key support ability. Then there is the other vast majority of players that foolishly and innacurately assume Templars are the best healers because they have "healing skills and passives".

The point is, I am not trying to fight against the meta. In fact as long as I have been on these forums and since this games inception, I have tried desperately to educate and inform those in the later group of my above example, that this game should not and does not enforce such a rigid limitation between the 3 roles in pve and the effectively 8 classes that existed up till this point.

Come morrowind, nb, dk, warden and templar are all almost near identical in healing capabilities with sorc slightly behind but not by much. This is from extensive testing on the beta. Most people on here do not want to hear it, but it is simply the case. The same can be said for at least warden dk and templar tanks in the beta.

ZOS already acknowledges your primary issue, and morrowind is actually very close to what many want, all 5 classes being completley viable in each of the 3 roles in end game content, as it should be. Each class approaches the role in a different way just as it is in any mmo you can name in recent history.

There is a very big difference between allowing [snip] unoptimized builds to at the very least function which falls in line with the old "play how you want" mantra and desiging the classed to function uniquely and viably in any of the 3 roles. Your biggest obstacle is not going to be to convince zos, but to fight the swarm of players in this game that believe such a limited approach between the 5 classes in this game are only suited to one specific role (except for dps for some reason) is actually good for an mmo. Examples being stam dk can be top dog in pve dps and no one says a word, but if templar is not best healer in their eyes, they lose their ***.

The ones you need to be preaching to are the ones that believe a nb healer or sorc tank are "hybrids" or some form of special snowflake builds. You will find plenty of them here. But good luck.

[Edit for Baiting]

Lavennin · May 2017

The Secret World feels much more like a "play as you want" game, at least in the beginning. It's not a true sandbox game though, but with ESO I never felt, even for a moment that I can play what I want. It's essentially just 12 classes instead of 4, even if they balanced them better I wouldn't have found it any different from games like WoW.

The thing is, I need to mix and match to feel the freedom, not just switch roles as needed. I want to cast some heavy hitting spells while wielding a greatsword, but inferno staff is just so much better. I don't want to play an arcane knight at the cost of knowing I will be times stronger if I just change my build.

So I don't really care if my NB heals as well as a Templar. It's not the kind of freedom I have in mind anyway.

Mazbt · May 2017

If i'm running certain content like a vet dlc dungeon or a vet trial I expect certain things from my group mates. "Play as you want" mantra means nothing to me.

Royaji · May 2017

Some great ideas in this thread.

The game itself doesn't break the "play the way you want" idea. The players do. And neither ZOS nor you (or anyone else) can do anything about it. Your "play the way you want" becomes moot the second it meets someone elses "play the way you want". You can't force people to group with your NB healer if they want a Templar. Yes, NB healer can complete the content but they want a Templar. ZOS can make the content so any class can complete it in any role (and they already do it). But they can't force other people to play said content with you and your preffered class/role combination.

Easy as that.

This game is an MMO. You have to deal with other people. And if they want a specific group composition you can't force them to accept you. Find like minded people who do not care or even embrace "off-meta" builds and groups.

It is impossible to achieve a perfect balance where all classes are as effective through different means. Never going to happen. One setup will be prefered by top-end players and most players will agree with them and run the same. Unless classes are exactly the same the will not be equally effective. Period.