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ZOS may have stumbled on the way to balance the game unintentionally
I have seen the many posts about the imbalance between stamina and magika. As a Redguard, I play Stam characters mostly but I do have magika characters too. I think that when ZOS gave Stam Sorcs Hurricane, that is the way to build diversity.
Hear me out.
Boundless Storm has one animation for magika and Hurricane has a different animation for stamina. Both skills are useful. Why not give most if not all skills for all classes and even weapons this same treatment. If your racial passives give resource and damage bonuses, why not allow a magika templar to dual wield swords and use all of the skills but have different animations. For example, why not have a magika Nightblade do a Critical Rush from stealth and have an automatic cloak if they make contact for 3 seconds or a magika bow that does oblivion damage over time. Or a stamina staff healer, or a magika version of reverberating bash that saps magika for additional sustain.
We are getting hybrid sets with Morrowind, yet a hybrid is still not feasible. I think the first step is to balance stamina and magika by making more skills useful, allowing stamina or magika to take each role, which would also reduce trials snobbery towards Stam characters.
Just thinking outside the box.
Hear me out.
Boundless Storm has one animation for magika and Hurricane has a different animation for stamina. Both skills are useful. Why not give most if not all skills for all classes and even weapons this same treatment. If your racial passives give resource and damage bonuses, why not allow a magika templar to dual wield swords and use all of the skills but have different animations. For example, why not have a magika Nightblade do a Critical Rush from stealth and have an automatic cloak if they make contact for 3 seconds or a magika bow that does oblivion damage over time. Or a stamina staff healer, or a magika version of reverberating bash that saps magika for additional sustain.
We are getting hybrid sets with Morrowind, yet a hybrid is still not feasible. I think the first step is to balance stamina and magika by making more skills useful, allowing stamina or magika to take each role, which would also reduce trials snobbery towards Stam characters.
Just thinking outside the box.
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Avran_Sylt wrote: »What?
You mean like DW having magicka morphs of abilities?
Exactly. Every class using every weapon and every weapon being viable be it stamina or magika. From a Stam version of the DK chains to a magika version of Caltrops.1 -
Phinix1✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It would be a wonderful system I would love to play. Very "Elder Scrollsy." I have suggested similar ideas in the past, as have others. It would allow a much larger swath of the original TES classes like monk healers or spellswords, etc.
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Avran_Sylt✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It's not really the weapon skills that are causing such a gap in dps. For the main part it's the class abilities. Besides, giving everything a stam and a mag morph would just mean you've now got Sorcs slotting 2H backbar to beat your arse while spamming shields. And for the most part peeps would no longer use healing skills if they're stam, but rather just slot shielding skills instead. you'd make it balanced by allowing players to totally ignore other skill lines because they can pick and choose only the best of everything, rather than the best of what is available to their playstyle.
It would balance it, but by means of less diversity.3 -
It would be a wonderful system I would love to play. Very "Elder Scrollsy." I have suggested similar ideas in the past, as have others. It would allow a much larger swath of the original TES classes like monk healers or spellswords, etc.
You are absolutely right. But think of the build diversity.... we need more build diversity. Once I finish the story with each of my classes, I spend most of my time experimenting with different builds. Just changing the way you play can change your enjoyment of the game.2 -
Avran_Sylt wrote: »It's not really the weapon skills that are causing such a gap in dps. For the main part it's the class abilities. Besides, giving everything a stam and a mag morph would just mean you've now got Sorcs slotting 2H backbar to beat your arse while spamming shields. And for the most part peeps would no longer use healing skills if they're stam, but rather just slot shielding skills instead. you'd make it balanced by allowing players to totally ignore other skill lines because they can pick and choose only the best of everything, rather than the best of what is available to their playstyle.
It would balance it, but by means of less diversity.
We don't have much diversity right now. We only have a few viable sets for endgame content. A few sets for Stam, a few more for magika, Stam being excluded from endgame content, magika being stuck with only staffs or dual daggers. I'm not sure I understand how it would be less diversity?0 -
pattyLtd✭✭✭✭✭Haha, here we are hoping they might accidentally find solutions lol.
Edit: fixed spelling
Edited by pattyLtd on May 12, 2017 8:11AMEnglish is not my native language, no grammar police please, tyvm3 -
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ForsakenSin✭✭✭✭✭
✭this is what i was thinking why not have every skill have two different paths Magica AND Stamina morph ect"By many i am seen as hero...as a savior of the Tamriel i will not stop until every Daedra every evil there is in Tamriel is vanquish by my hands..
However i do this for my own purpose to gain trust of mortals to worship me and to eliminate my competition i will not bend my knee to lead your army to serve you Molag Bal , i will simply just take it from you.."--- Forsaken Sin( Magica Sorc)Arise From Darkness Forsaken SIn
"You have been a loyal High Elf Magica Sorc
Conjure of Darkness, Master of Magic
Killer of Molag Bal and Savior of Ebonheart Pact
Until Dark Brotherhood killed you...
but now..NOW its time to Arise From Darkness once again..."2 -
M0bi✭✭✭ForsakenSin wrote: »this is what i was thinking why not have every skill have two different paths Magica AND Stamina morph ect
I agree with this...every CLASS skill though...not the Weapon skills.... having a destro staff skill run off stamina or dual wield run off magicka is a good way to break the game beyond repair.FOR THE DOMINION!!4 -
KochDerDamonen✭✭✭✭✭
✭ForsakenSin wrote: »this is what i was thinking why not have every skill have two different paths Magica AND Stamina morph ect
I agree with this...every CLASS skill though...not the Weapon skills.... having a destro staff skill run off stamina or dual wield run off magicka is a good way to break the game beyond repair.ForsakenSin wrote: »this is what i was thinking why not have every skill have two different paths Magica AND Stamina morph ect
I agree with this...every CLASS skill though...not the Weapon skills.... having a destro staff skill run off stamina or dual wield run off magicka is a good way to break the game beyond repair.
@M0bi Easy. Stamina uses the staff like a bo-staff with enchanted melee-ish moves, maybe having a bit of range but largely 'casting' as if using an on-swing enchant like in TES:III. :P
I can't think of any good ways to make hybridization better in ESO without overhauling the game. Enchanting blows in every way, alchemy is okay but lacking in effect variety, Stamina skills are weird and kinda magickal already (Rally? Whirlwind? Volley? Hurricane? Jabs? Various DK and NB moves? Guard? Everything under Fighter's Guild except crossbow and trap?)If you quote someone, and intend for them to see what you have said, be sure to Mention them with @[insert name].2 -
M0bi✭✭✭KochDerDamonen wrote: »I can't think of any good ways to make hybridization better in ESO without overhauling the game.
That's my point right there...
The game needs more variation. Period.
At current there are only so many combos, and grinding sets as incentive for progression...What is this, Diablo 3?FOR THE DOMINION!!4 -
Lavennin✭✭✭Simply changing how damage scales would make hybrids viable enough. Make it so the resource pool has nothing to do with damage, and resource management is difficult to award pure builds.Edited by Lavennin on May 12, 2017 6:48AM1
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Emma_Overload✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Avran_Sylt wrote: »What?
You mean like DW having magicka morphs of abilities?
It's a great idea, and he's not the first person to suggest it#CAREBEARMASTERRACE1 -
Rohamad_Ali✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think someone suggested Conjured weapons skill lines as majica morphs but I have no idea how they would pull it off . A physical weapon has to be present for stats and set bonuses . It's a far out idea and I don't know what to make of it as no one has ever put numbers to it and without those I can't form an opinion .0 -
Cronopoly✭✭✭✭✭While it may look balanced and good on paper, such a massive endeavor would be similar in practice to what SONY did to Star Wars Galaxies and Kill the Game with the NGE top to bottom Combat change.0 -
CaptainBeerDude✭✭✭✭✭Rohamad_Ali wrote: »I think someone suggested Conjured weapons skill lines as majica morphs but I have no idea how they would pull it off . A physical weapon has to be present for stats and set bonuses . It's a far out idea and I don't know what to make of it as no one has ever put numbers to it and without those I can't form an opinion .
Maybe a toggle with the conjured weapon based on your skill level?0 -
ljb2k5_ESO✭✭✭AgentofKhaoss wrote: »Avran_Sylt wrote: »What?
You mean like DW having magicka morphs of abilities?
Exactly. Every class using every weapon and every weapon being viable be it stamina or magika. From a Stam version of the DK chains to a magika version of Caltrops.
Then you negate there being any reason for there to be stamina or magicka at all. Just make a generic option called "resource". In fact why have different skills or abilities at all either? If everyone was using the exact same powers and resources, all would be equally viable. Eu-***-reka! Your "epiphany" is that lazy and un-creative homogenization is the way to balance, something that most players don't want, yet every MMO dev seems to flock like moths to flames toward. Epic Fail.Edited by ljb2k5_ESO on May 12, 2017 11:02AM0 -
Rittings✭✭✭✭✭
✭I do like stam and mag morphs of abilities... however, what I do NOT like is being forced to choose a morph purely based on my major resource.
For this reason, I'd request that each skill has FOUR morphs to choose from. 2 magic and 2 stam.... it will give a far greater diversity in builds, and actually make us think we have a proper choice when it is time to morph an ability...1 -
Galwylin✭✭✭✭✭Aren't those charger NPCs using magic two handers? Though they seem to function differently. For instance, a melee 2hs will knock you back if you don't watch it and a magic one will do that raise the thing up to call lightning and just slamming it down on the floor (or your head I guess they're aiming for). That's probably where you could make all available but have them behave a little differently so sorcerers aren't wreaking blow you to pieces. And we do need melee staff in the game. I personally wish they'd base damage on the combination of stamina and magicka with a little tone down. That way, hybrids are possible but everyone stays where they are. Then they can work on bringing stamina to magicka's level.
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clocksstoppe✭✭✭✭✭
✭If you want hybrid builds viable you need to remove damage scaling with resource pools.2 -
ForsakenSin wrote: »this is what i was thinking why not have every skill have two different paths Magica AND Stamina morph ect
I agree with this...every CLASS skill though...not the Weapon skills.... having a destro staff skill run off stamina or dual wield run off magicka is a good way to break the game beyond repair.
I disagree. It doesn't break the game because everyone already has access to unnatural skills. A stam character dropping a negate bubble or a flawless dawnbreaker doesn't break the game. Opening the characters to build variation would cause you to think when you're battling someone. If they have a staff, I have an idea how to prepare.
What I'm saying is if there is a metta build, there should be a counter build to the metta. There are a bunch of ways ZOS could take this. They could tailor the skill morphs towards a particular role. The goals are build diversity and better game balance. Im betting that a Magika version of steel tornado that offers an elemental effect would be useful or a Stam version of blazing shield.0 -
Aren't those charger NPCs using magic two handers? Though they seem to function differently. For instance, a melee 2hs will knock you back if you don't watch it and a magic one will do that raise the thing up to call lightning and just slamming it down on the floor (or your head I guess they're aiming for). That's probably where you could make all available but have them behave a little differently so sorcerers aren't wreaking blow you to pieces. And we do need melee staff in the game. I personally wish they'd base damage on the combination of stamina and magicka with a little tone down. That way, hybrids are possible but everyone stays where they are. Then they can work on bringing stamina to magicka's level.
I agree with you that damage should be a combination of your stamina and magika. Maybe have only one damage figure but keep spell crit and weapon crit separate so by being a hybrid you sacrifice crit for sustain. Balance the damage and they could have kept the sustain in the Champion system.0 -
MyKillv2.0✭✭✭✭✭
✭My issue with diversity is that very few people will actually attempt to diversify. Most will jump on YouTube, listen to what their favorite streamer says and copy/paste their trial build, applying it to every single application.
Not a blanket statement for everyone but a larger majority than people want to admit.
That being said, you can still "sandbox" in this game. You just can't "sandbox" and be better than "meta" since meta creators have spent plenty of time figuring out a way to be the very best.1 -
KochDerDamonen wrote: »ForsakenSin wrote: »this is what i was thinking why not have every skill have two different paths Magica AND Stamina morph ect
I agree with this...every CLASS skill though...not the Weapon skills.... having a destro staff skill run off stamina or dual wield run off magicka is a good way to break the game beyond repair.ForsakenSin wrote: »this is what i was thinking why not have every skill have two different paths Magica AND Stamina morph ect
I agree with this...every CLASS skill though...not the Weapon skills.... having a destro staff skill run off stamina or dual wield run off magicka is a good way to break the game beyond repair.
@M0bi Easy. Stamina uses the staff like a bo-staff with enchanted melee-ish moves, maybe having a bit of range but largely 'casting' as if using an on-swing enchant like in TES:III. :P
I can't think of any good ways to make hybridization better in ESO without overhauling the game. Enchanting blows in every way, alchemy is okay but lacking in effect variety, Stamina skills are weird and kinda magickal already (Rally? Whirlwind? Volley? Hurricane? Jabs? Various DK and NB moves? Guard? Everything under Fighter's Guild except crossbow and trap?)
Ahhhh... just the thought of a Magika version of rearming trap gives me nightmares.1 -
SleepyTroll✭✭✭✭✭
✭AgentofKhaoss wrote: »...For example, why not have a magika Nightblade do a Critical Rush from stealth and have an automatic cloak if they make contact for 3 seconds or a magika bow that does oblivion damage over time....
What?1
