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what is the point making NB as a dps class in PVE
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OldGamerESO✭✭✭
People talk about viability in trials because that's where it matters. You can play a Nord character with no gear, all points into magicka, swinging around your 2Hander with nothing but heavy attacks and still complete quests. A class's ability to complete quests means NOTHING.
I understand the reason, but people exaggerate the impact to the ESO product, or say that class is so dead everyone will unsubscribe or reroll or rage quit. It undermines any reasonable argument we make to the developers regarding class tweaks.
Are these posts directed at developers or players? Zenimax knows where their income comes from, and I am guessing it is not from the type of person that will quit the game over mechanics changes. So when I see an open ended "Why would anyone play a NB in PvE" without the trials context added to the title, it sounds crazy to anyone reading it. Its like yelling that "why would anyone buy a Porsche Spyder, it is way too slow and doesn't corner well" , when everyone knows that is not true unless you are talking about certain classes of car racing.
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Daemons_Bane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭People talk about viability in trials because that's where it matters. You can play a Nord character with no gear, all points into magicka, swinging around your 2Hander with nothing but heavy attacks and still complete quests. A class's ability to complete quests means NOTHING.
Let me correct you here.. That's where it matter to SOME people
3 -
hmsdragonfly✭✭✭✭✭
✭pantshunter wrote: »Templar, untouchable
DK, untouchable
Sorc , hahahahahahahahaha
warden, P2W
so, as you can see, NB is a DPS class, but the healing class and tank class ability can do more damage( more useful as dps ) then a DPS class? where is the logic??
maybe i was wrong to see DK and templar as a tank and healer class, but if you play eso, you know the best tank will be DK, the best healer will be templar ( atm ) and sorc is best AOE damage.
NB? nothing is good for it, you would think they will have the best single target damage as a dps, but not, best single target is DK. so what is left for NB for PVE? you do around 15-20K less damage to a sorc, not as useful as MDK in vet trail ( expressly VMOL)
oh, the one thing that nb is good for and its second best for is VMA! the solo content it beat Templar and DK ^_^ so happy, that just show, if you want to play NB, its only good for solo content, if you want to play group contend, you better get a sorc, because it never get Nerf.
So, its NB dead for group PVE ? to me, yes. but the bright side, its good for doing quest, ''I am sure that is what people do when they lvl it to 50, all skill 50, mage guild 10, fighter guild 10 undaunted 9 just to do the quest'',
You know which class has the worst DPS? Not NB, NB is 2nd worst. It's Warden.
Besides, there's no such thing as a tank class or a healer class, or a DPS class in this game. Every class is designed so that they can tank/heal/DPS, whatever people want to do, NB is underperforming and sorc is overperforming, so sorc needs nerf and NB needs buff, that's it.Aldmeri Dominion Loyalist. For the Queen!2 -
Syrani✭✭✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »OldGamerESO wrote: »You guys are way to focused on hardmode trials.
I wish every whine post about class death, etc had a title with the words "in hardmode trials" after it so we can realize that for the vast majority of players each class is played for the fun of it, not the maximum dps of it.
Nightblades are super fun to play! That why people play them. Its defining traits are cloaking and lifestealing and that is why people love them. It also has a great gap closer and lots of fun stealth support. You can build all sorts of fun builds that let you do all the content in the game that most people do. It is great fun to take cloak and blade of woe and go to Imperial City and farm Tel Var stones on the humanoids there. Or tank vet dungeons with a great life sucking tank. Or build the *fastest* moving character in the game for harvesting with nb+vamp + stealth + orc + concealed weapon + jailbreaker + rapid maneuver (its like being being the Flash!). You can easily hit 20k dps with stam nb or magicka nb and you don't need more than that except for HM trials.
Nightblades are my most fun characters, even if I hybrid them up and get rid of all sustain CP. Sneaky, poisoning backstabbers who are great in a knife fight and who can cloak away at will... SO MUCH FUN!
People talk about viability in trials because that's where it matters. You can play a Nord character with no gear, all points into magicka, swinging around your 2Hander with nothing but heavy attacks and still complete quests. A class's ability to complete quests means NOTHING.
To you.
Hardmode trials mean nothing to me, but I don't disregard them out of hand because of it.
It matters in trials because if a class can't do acceptable damage, groups don't want to take them. No one is going to tell you that you can't quest on a NB. That's the difference - not that people don't enjoy certain classes for questing. For questing, you can play whatever and however you like.
Edited by Syrani on May 9, 2017 4:46PM4 -
KingMagaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭Agreed. Almost all PvE is nerfed to hell at this point.
My main is stamblade played for over 110 days. I ONLY play him now when solo play in Cyro. Works out well because playing anything else solo always ends in getting zerged by 10 boys. No Pve, ever again.
Any Pve content now gets DPS by Sorc main or healed by Argonian templar.
No vet trial group wants to carry a stamblade. No-one should want to be carried either. You want a stamblade in your battlegrounds group or a magplar? lol
I started as stamblade and would of been still playing that char but i feel i was forced to play a Sorc/another class if i wanted to progress into Veteran trials. It does niggle on me this thought because i am an achievement hunter and to realise that the character i am playing cant technically get those achievements by merit is poor form.
If i had of known when starting, i would of picked another class for sure. DK tank, healer, ranged dd something that is viable. I dont want to complete ~23k achievements on a relatively new character to be on par with my main to progress to get the rest of achievement completion. Also poor form is knowing the holiday achievements, which i completed all of them with 2 characters, cant be completed with my sorc character now so by merit i cant really have 1 character with all the achievements - Which i feel should be possible in game.5 -
Integral1900✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Confused cat is confused...
This one thinks that what a nightblade is should be obvious, it's an assassin, or in the case of magic it's a blood Mage
Meathod is simple, buff up until the it's about to go nuclear, stealth, sneak attack and wallop
This one thinks you are looking for an in your face type of class, like a dk with stealth, this is not what a nightblade is
Fear not, for with much practice, admittedly far more practice than any other class, all will become clear
For I am the one shot kitty, the two handed blade the baddies will never see coming
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DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »OldGamerESO wrote: »You guys are way to focused on hardmode trials.
I wish every whine post about class death, etc had a title with the words "in hardmode trials" after it so we can realize that for the vast majority of players each class is played for the fun of it, not the maximum dps of it.
Nightblades are super fun to play! That why people play them. Its defining traits are cloaking and lifestealing and that is why people love them. It also has a great gap closer and lots of fun stealth support. You can build all sorts of fun builds that let you do all the content in the game that most people do. It is great fun to take cloak and blade of woe and go to Imperial City and farm Tel Var stones on the humanoids there. Or tank vet dungeons with a great life sucking tank. Or build the *fastest* moving character in the game for harvesting with nb+vamp + stealth + orc + concealed weapon + jailbreaker + rapid maneuver (its like being being the Flash!). You can easily hit 20k dps with stam nb or magicka nb and you don't need more than that except for HM trials.
Nightblades are my most fun characters, even if I hybrid them up and get rid of all sustain CP. Sneaky, poisoning backstabbers who are great in a knife fight and who can cloak away at will... SO MUCH FUN!
People talk about viability in trials because that's where it matters. You can play a Nord character with no gear, all points into magicka, swinging around your 2Hander with nothing but heavy attacks and still complete quests. A class's ability to complete quests means NOTHING.
To you.
Hardmode trials mean nothing to me, but I don't disregard them out of hand because of it.
It matters in trials because if a class can't do acceptable damage, groups don't want to take them. No one is going to tell you that you can't quest on a NB. That's the difference - not that people don't enjoy certain classes for questing. For questing, you can play whatever and however you like.
I understand and agree, but if you're not going for HM or for a leaderboard, the options open are way more than "sorc or gtfo". It grates terribly when I hear "nb are dead?!1" because they really aren't for 95%+ of the game.
As others said, any argument starting with "completely useless" will be igored from feefback. Nightblades offer minor brutality and mnb offer easy maim and off heals.
Talk about where they lack and what they neef, and you'll get much further than screaming and melting down (you is general, not you specifically).2 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭OldGamerESO wrote: »You can easily hit 20k dps with stam nb or magicka nb and you don't need more than that except for HM trials.
Survivability, of which stamblade has NONE
Please don't talk about stamblades in trials if you literally have no idea what you are talking about
New siphoning strikes is a bit like crit surge, just about 1/2 as effective heals with 100% uptime no matter your crit, and resources restored. The resource nerf was heavy, but stamblades got a nice little survivability gift.0 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »
No. He was close. You are assuming that everyone is a flawless DPS and conditions are totally ideal in your trial settings (practically 100% uptime on every buff/debuff and no obstacles in performing a perfect rotation). I am more than positive that I can pull 50K DPS in totally ideal conditions using a Bow-only Stamblade..... this does not make it fine. In those same conditions a Magicka Sorc can pull 65K-70K DPS.
The accurate numbers on Morrowind PTS when completing a solo DPS test on a 3M health target skeleton goes as follows:
• Magicka Sorcerer is too strong - 38-40K DPS
• Magicka DK manages well - 32K-34K DPS range
• Magicka Templar manages well - 32K-34K DPS range
• Magicka NB is on the weaker side - 28K-30K DPS range
• Magicka Warden is unbelievably weak - 23K-26K DPS, with 26K-27K being doable if using the bear which you won't in trials
After learning these numbers, we can take raid buffs into account:- Increased Max Magicka and occasional Critical Damage buff from Aggressive Warhorn
- Increased Spell Damage from Powerful Assault if your group utilizes it
- Increased Spell Damage from Spell Power Cure which is often up
- Increased damage done from Minor Berserk thanks to Combat Prayer
- Increased damage done from mobs having debuffed resistances
- Increased sustain from Necrotic Orb/Spear Shards
- Other Passive buffs (Minor Sorcery/Prophecy/Brutality/Savagery)
- Anything else I may have missed
Magicka Sorcerers are overperforming. The reason mainly relates to a blatantly overpowered Volatile Familiar.
Magicka DKs and Magicka Templars are seemingly fine.
Magicka NBs need a few buffs. The simplest and best would be to allow Grim Focus to automatically recast on proc usage, so it doesn't need to be casted two times in a row just to use it.
Magicka Warden is a mess and can only be brought up through a wide range of buffs since it needs a good 8K damage boost or so. I went into detail about this on a thread I created which unfortunately did not attract much attention since Morrowind hasn't released yet. People aren't throwing temper tantrums until they see just how atrociously weak Magicka Warden is and cry on the Forums when it's too late.
Anyway.... Don't down talk the dude saying their numbers were made up when they were in fact quite accurate especially when the info you provided tells us nothing that couldn't be assumed by any decent endgame PvEer. t'll be comments like these that make ppl who are unsure think everything is fine until the patch hits live servers and changes are no longer as easy.4 -
Artis✭✭✭✭✭
✭ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »pantshunter wrote: »Templar, untouchable
DK, untouchable
Sorc , hahahahahahahahaha
warden, P2W
As a mainSorc this made me laugh. Anyways, as you already know stamina classes are RIP in this and the next patch, so magicka is the BiS class for the next like 6 months. So you have to settle with that. The next thing is that nb's get a big role to play in the next patch as they have a insanely low ulti cost (Incap) and combined with the new trial sets coming, many end-game trial runs will require a nb or 2 for sure, well that's the way I'll be going, maybe even get my nb out of the retirement
. Next, Twisting Path get's a insane buff, so you see a increase of 2k+ dps on magBlades or even more. So yeah, nb's are not that weak as you may think 
But on the other hand, stamina gankBlades are RIP in the next patch as sneak dmg multiplier is removed. But still, for pve they are strong. So you can see something like Scathing Mage with Master Architect as the new meta.
11% doesn't sound all that insane. Not sure how it translates into 2k+ dps increase either. That would mean that before buff it dealt around 20k dps, which is not true.
See the idea that NB is supposed to be a top-end sustain group DPS contender is not a vision i ever shared.
When i loom at the Nb i see stealth and utility and a degree of burst/gank potential. Those clearly give it some unique functions in questing and in PVP.
Maybe they are not toe-to-toe slugfest long-lasting burners or ranged artillery pieces for sustained PVE but so what?
They can serve as g/T PVE DPS in most content, but they wont be the top-end first choices for them in the more competitive score chasing levels. So what?
They offer with their stealth a lot of advantage in say the Tg heists and Db sacraments as well as great situational options in PVP.
g/t pve top-end dps score chasing is a small closet in the eso mansion, not the whole of the estate.
So what? So go take a hike. Are you saying that all the time I invested in my NB, all the practice, all the achievement - even the character name I love - are wasted and I just should be okay that I will never be able to play top-endgame?
There is absolutely no reason for NBs not to be competitive in DPS, especially given that they aren't great in any other role.
EVEN if you had a point, that would mean they should be a pure pvp class. But then they should be much stronger than others to make up for their uselessness in pve. But then who would play any other class in pvp?
And about heists/sacraments? You gotta be trolling. Because these aren't real arguments. You can get the same effect with any class just by using invisibility potions. What potion should I drink as a NB to be able to do what others can do in PvE and PvP?OldGamerESO wrote: »You guys are way to focused on hardmode trials.
I wish every whine post about class death, etc had a title with the words "in hardmode trials" after it so we can realize that for the vast majority of players each class is played for the fun of it, not the maximum dps of it.
Nightblades are super fun to play! That why people play them. Its defining traits are cloaking and lifestealing and that is why people love them. It also has a great gap closer and lots of fun stealth support. You can build all sorts of fun builds that let you do all the content in the game that most people do. It is great fun to take cloak and blade of woe and go to Imperial City and farm Tel Var stones on the humanoids there. Or tank vet dungeons with a great life sucking tank. Or build the *fastest* moving character in the game for harvesting with nb+vamp + stealth + orc + concealed weapon + jailbreaker + rapid maneuver (its like being being the Flash!). You can easily hit 20k dps with stam nb or magicka nb and you don't need more than that except for HM trials.
Nightblades are my most fun characters, even if I hybrid them up and get rid of all sustain CP. Sneaky, poisoning backstabbers who are great in a knife fight and who can cloak away at will... SO MUCH FUN!
That's because nothing but trials matters. Literally everything works in other content.hmsdragonfly wrote: »
You know which class has the worst DPS? Not NB, NB is 2nd worst. It's Warden.
Besides, there's no such thing as a tank class or a healer class, or a DPS class in this game. Every class is designed so that they can tank/heal/DPS, whatever people want to do, NB is underperforming and sorc is overperforming, so sorc needs nerf and NB needs buff, that's it.
What warden? I just tried to create it and there's no such option.DocFrost72 wrote: »
I understand and agree, but if you're not going for HM or for a leaderboard, the options open are way more than "sorc or gtfo". It grates terribly when I hear "nb are dead?!1" because they really aren't for 95%+ of the game.
As others said, any argument starting with "completely useless" will be igored from feefback. Nightblades offer minor brutality and mnb offer easy maim and off heals.
Talk about where they lack and what they neef, and you'll get much further than screaming and melting down (you is general, not you specifically).
But no one asks about other content. Other content is doable by any class and pretty much any build. When people ask what is the point making NB in pve, they obviously mean all pve especially end-game. They mean that pve where the class matters.
5 -
AoDD33pfri3d✭✭✭It's not the nb that's getting nerfed it's the bow that is and two if I remember correctly the sorc did get nered, it was one of their skills and pretty sure they will get nerfed again.0
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pantshunter wrote: »Templar, untouchable
DK, untouchable
Sorc , hahahahahahahahaha
warden, P2W
so, as you can see, NB is a DPS class, but the healing class and tank class ability can do more damage( more useful as dps ) then a DPS class? where is the logic??
maybe i was wrong to see DK and templar as a tank and healer class, but if you play eso, you know the best tank will be DK, the best healer will be templar ( atm ) and sorc is best AOE damage.
NB? nothing is good for it, you would think they will have the best single target damage as a dps, but not, best single target is DK. so what is left for NB for PVE? you do around 15-20K less damage to a sorc, not as useful as MDK in vet trail ( expressly VMOL)
oh, the one thing that nb is good for and its second best for is VMA! the solo content it beat Templar and DK ^_^ so happy, that just show, if you want to play NB, its only good for solo content, if you want to play group contend, you better get a sorc, because it never get Nerf.
So, its NB dead for group PVE ? to me, yes. but the bright side, its good for doing quest, ''I am sure that is what people do when they lvl it to 50, all skill 50, mage guild 10, fighter guild 10 undaunted 9 just to do the quest'',
Nightblade's are fine.
P2W does not exist in this game. If you think it does then you don't really understand what pay to win means.0 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭ifDoubtNerfIt wrote: »pantshunter wrote: »Templar, untouchable
DK, untouchable
Sorc , hahahahahahahahaha
warden, P2W
As a mainSorc this made me laugh. Anyways, as you already know stamina classes are RIP in this and the next patch, so magicka is the BiS class for the next like 6 months. So you have to settle with that. The next thing is that nb's get a big role to play in the next patch as they have a insanely low ulti cost (Incap) and combined with the new trial sets coming, many end-game trial runs will require a nb or 2 for sure, well that's the way I'll be going, maybe even get my nb out of the retirement . Next, Twisting Path get's a insane buff, so you see a increase of 2k+ dps on magBlades or even more. So yeah, nb's are not that weak as you may think
But on the other hand, stamina gankBlades are RIP in the next patch as sneak dmg multiplier is removed. But still, for pve they are strong. So you can see something like Scathing Mage with Master Architect as the new meta.
11% doesn't sound all that insane. Not sure how it translates into 2k+ dps increase either. That would mean that before buff it dealt around 20k dps, which is not true.
See the idea that NB is supposed to be a top-end sustain group DPS contender is not a vision i ever shared.
When i loom at the Nb i see stealth and utility and a degree of burst/gank potential. Those clearly give it some unique functions in questing and in PVP.
Maybe they are not toe-to-toe slugfest long-lasting burners or ranged artillery pieces for sustained PVE but so what?
They can serve as g/T PVE DPS in most content, but they wont be the top-end first choices for them in the more competitive score chasing levels. So what?
They offer with their stealth a lot of advantage in say the Tg heists and Db sacraments as well as great situational options in PVP.
g/t pve top-end dps score chasing is a small closet in the eso mansion, not the whole of the estate.
So what? So go take a hike. Are you saying that all the time I invested in my NB, all the practice, all the achievement - even the character name I love - are wasted and I just should be okay that I will never be able to play top-endgame?
There is absolutely no reason for NBs not to be competitive in DPS, especially given that they aren't great in any other role.
EVEN if you had a point, that would mean they should be a pure pvp class. But then they should be much stronger than others to make up for their uselessness in pve. But then who would play any other class in pvp?
And about heists/sacraments? You gotta be trolling. Because these aren't real arguments. You can get the same effect with any class just by using invisibility potions. What potion should I drink as a NB to be able to do what others can do in PvE and PvP?OldGamerESO wrote: »You guys are way to focused on hardmode trials.
I wish every whine post about class death, etc had a title with the words "in hardmode trials" after it so we can realize that for the vast majority of players each class is played for the fun of it, not the maximum dps of it.
Nightblades are super fun to play! That why people play them. Its defining traits are cloaking and lifestealing and that is why people love them. It also has a great gap closer and lots of fun stealth support. You can build all sorts of fun builds that let you do all the content in the game that most people do. It is great fun to take cloak and blade of woe and go to Imperial City and farm Tel Var stones on the humanoids there. Or tank vet dungeons with a great life sucking tank. Or build the *fastest* moving character in the game for harvesting with nb+vamp + stealth + orc + concealed weapon + jailbreaker + rapid maneuver (its like being being the Flash!). You can easily hit 20k dps with stam nb or magicka nb and you don't need more than that except for HM trials.
Nightblades are my most fun characters, even if I hybrid them up and get rid of all sustain CP. Sneaky, poisoning backstabbers who are great in a knife fight and who can cloak away at will... SO MUCH FUN!
That's because nothing but trials matters. Literally everything works in other content.hmsdragonfly wrote: »
You know which class has the worst DPS? Not NB, NB is 2nd worst. It's Warden.
Besides, there's no such thing as a tank class or a healer class, or a DPS class in this game. Every class is designed so that they can tank/heal/DPS, whatever people want to do, NB is underperforming and sorc is overperforming, so sorc needs nerf and NB needs buff, that's it.
What warden? I just tried to create it and there's no such option.DocFrost72 wrote: »
I understand and agree, but if you're not going for HM or for a leaderboard, the options open are way more than "sorc or gtfo". It grates terribly when I hear "nb are dead?!1" because they really aren't for 95%+ of the game.
As others said, any argument starting with "completely useless" will be igored from feefback. Nightblades offer minor brutality and mnb offer easy maim and off heals.
Talk about where they lack and what they neef, and you'll get much further than screaming and melting down (you is general, not you specifically).
But no one asks about other content. Other content is doable by any class and pretty much any build. When people ask what is the point making NB in pve, they obviously mean all pve especially end-game. They mean that pve where the class matters.
All pve especially endgame sounds like it still includes normal dungeons, vet dungeons, DLC dungeons, and normal trials. That, and overland questing, makes up most of all PvE.
Or does that not matter to you? If not, no worries! I won't judge the effectiveness of an entire class based on performance in one freaking area.
Do nightblades need buffs for trials? Yes!
Does that mean every one should should stop playing the class? NO.
One more time: When you say "Nightblades are a totally useless class", the Devs will roll their eyes and move along. Speak about what they need (and specifically what stamina needs) in vet trials. Don't jump to gods damned hyperbole that all that matters is hm vet trials, because that is objectively not true.Edited by DocFrost72 on May 9, 2017 8:26PM2 -
Oompuh✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »
From Alcasts last video on MagWarden DPS. So no I didnt. I could of put more info like @Vaoh did but I didn't really care that much to do itEdited by Oompuh on May 9, 2017 8:40PMXbox NA - Oompa
Khajiit DK Tank
Founder of Major Aegis
Main Tank of Dissonant Crusade Uprising Savages0 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »OldGamerESO wrote: »You guys are way to focused on hardmode trials.
I wish every whine post about class death, etc had a title with the words "in hardmode trials" after it so we can realize that for the vast majority of players each class is played for the fun of it, not the maximum dps of it.
Nightblades are super fun to play! That why people play them. Its defining traits are cloaking and lifestealing and that is why people love them. It also has a great gap closer and lots of fun stealth support. You can build all sorts of fun builds that let you do all the content in the game that most people do. It is great fun to take cloak and blade of woe and go to Imperial City and farm Tel Var stones on the humanoids there. Or tank vet dungeons with a great life sucking tank. Or build the *fastest* moving character in the game for harvesting with nb+vamp + stealth + orc + concealed weapon + jailbreaker + rapid maneuver (its like being being the Flash!). You can easily hit 20k dps with stam nb or magicka nb and you don't need more than that except for HM trials.
Nightblades are my most fun characters, even if I hybrid them up and get rid of all sustain CP. Sneaky, poisoning backstabbers who are great in a knife fight and who can cloak away at will... SO MUCH FUN!
People talk about viability in trials because that's where it matters. You can play a Nord character with no gear, all points into magicka, swinging around your 2Hander with nothing but heavy attacks and still complete quests. A class's ability to complete quests means NOTHING.
To you.
Hardmode trials mean nothing to me, but I don't disregard them out of hand because of it.
The point is when discussing the weaknesses and strengths of each class, you have to look at it from the top when the subject is end game performance.1 -
pantshunter✭✭I dont want to make too much comment onWardhmsdragonfly wrote: »pantshunter wrote: »Templar, untouchable
DK, untouchable
Sorc , hahahahahahahahaha
warden, P2W
so, as you can see, NB is a DPS class, but the healing class and tank class ability can do more damage( more useful as dps ) then a DPS class? where is the logic??
maybe i was wrong to see DK and templar as a tank and healer class, but if you play eso, you know the best tank will be DK, the best healer will be templar ( atm ) and sorc is best AOE damage.
NB? nothing is good for it, you would think they will have the best single target damage as a dps, but not, best single target is DK. so what is left for NB for PVE? you do around 15-20K less damage to a sorc, not as useful as MDK in vet trail ( expressly VMOL)
oh, the one thing that nb is good for and its second best for is VMA! the solo content it beat Templar and DK ^_^ so happy, that just show, if you want to play NB, its only good for solo content, if you want to play group contend, you better get a sorc, because it never get Nerf.
So, its NB dead for group PVE ? to me, yes. but the bright side, its good for doing quest, ''I am sure that is what people do when they lvl it to 50, all skill 50, mage guild 10, fighter guild 10 undaunted 9 just to do the quest'',
You know which class has the worst DPS? Not NB, NB is 2nd worst. It's Warden.
Besides, there's no such thing as a tank class or a healer class, or a DPS class in this game. Every class is designed so that they can tank/heal/DPS, whatever people want to do, NB is underperforming and sorc is overperforming, so sorc needs nerf and NB needs buff, that's it.
Dont want to talk too much about warden dps as its still PTS. but, your right about it, its not such thing as tank class or healer class. but if your doing VMOL HM, a two sorc healer come and 2 NB as a tank, what do you think? your not gona finish it. my point is every class have some strong point, but Nb DONT. ( they do for solo contend, like VMA, quests )
I have all 4 class stam and mag, and i play on all of them, and that is why i make a comment about it, i can ez to change to other character to play which i been doing using sorc and mdk for trail, nb for farming vma or solo.
I just dont like the way you can have sorc, dk, templar in a VET DUNGEON and have no problem as tank, dps or healer, but NB, you cant do all 3 of those, at less not as well as.0 -
Artis✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Are you 12 or something with arguments like that? Yeah, they aren't completely useless just like a microscope is not completely useless when you need to hammer a nail. Yeah, you can technically use a microscope for that. But why would you?DocFrost72 wrote: »All pve especially endgame sounds like it still includes normal dungeons, vet dungeons, DLC dungeons, and normal trials. That, and overland questing, makes up most of all PvE.
Or does that not matter to you? If not, no worries! I won't judge the effectiveness of an entire class based on performance in one freaking area.
Do nightblades need buffs for trials? Yes!
Does that mean every one should should stop playing the class? NO.
One more time: When you say "Nightblades are a totally useless class", the Devs will roll their eyes and move along. Speak about what they need (and specifically what stamina needs) in vet trials. Don't jump to gods damned hyperbole that all that matters is hm vet trials, because that is objectively not true.
In ANY type of PvE content there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to bring a NB if you can bring another class. Especially in Trials, vet dungeons and DLC dungeons. No one cares or plays MMOs for overland questing. That's just leveling, not endgame.
And yes, it does that everyone should stop playing the class. At this point, the only people playing it are people who are stuck because all their achievements are on that class or they just love the character. Or they run a weekly with 1 more character to get more loot for their actual characters. Or new players who don't know NBs are the weakest yet. That's all. No other reason.
If people stop playing - that's the only thing that can finally make ZOS buff the class. So yes, people definitely should stop playing for a while. And also yes, if you admit they need buff for trials, I have no idea why you don't see that the same applies to any group content. They need even more buff for 4man dungeons since there they have less group buffs and perform even worse.
The only reason why questing doesn't matter is because you don't play/compete/compare with other players there. ANd yes, every class and builds can complete quests. Because 95% of them are dialogues and walking. But still, some classes are stronger than others. And NB is the weakest at the moment.3 -
pantshunter✭✭OldGamerESO wrote: »You guys are way to focused on hardmode trials.
I wish every whine post about class death, etc had a title with the words "in hardmode trials" after it so we can realize that for the vast majority of players each class is played for the fun of it, not the maximum dps of it.
Nightblades are super fun to play! That why people play them. Its defining traits are cloaking and lifestealing and that is why people love them. It also has a great gap closer and lots of fun stealth support. You can build all sorts of fun builds that let you do all the content in the game that most people do. It is great fun to take cloak and blade of woe and go to Imperial City and farm Tel Var stones on the humanoids there. Or tank vet dungeons with a great life sucking tank. Or build the *fastest* moving character in the game for harvesting with nb+vamp + stealth + orc + concealed weapon + jailbreaker + rapid maneuver (its like being being the Flash!). You can easily hit 20k dps with stam nb or magicka nb and you don't need more than that except for HM trials.
Nightblades are my most fun characters, even if I hybrid them up and get rid of all sustain CP. Sneaky, poisoning backstabbers who are great in a knife fight and who can cloak away at will... SO MUCH FUN!
Dont get me wrong, I am good at NB in PVP, the point is I am not talking about PVP its PVE point that is a bit lack off. yes, 20K on dungeons is fine or even in vet trail. but my point is why other class can hit 40-50K with the same gear? I know MMO cant be balance but the point is the DK ''have'' a great tank ability, Templar ''have'' great healing ability, sorc have great DPS. but what do NB have?
And please dont make too much comment about warden because its PTS, it could change. and dont make a comment about NB can do more DPS then other class in PVE, because they cant. its the worst DPS class so far for GROUP contend. the reason NB is better then DK and Templar in VMA is because its range and it have speed buff. you can argue with me said that is the design of the class, fast, stealth, but what i would said back to you is, its missing a key thing, its damage. NB is a assassin, if you cant kill people, what is the point being fast and stealth and what does stealth and fast do for you in VET trail. 2 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Are you 12 or something with arguments like that? Yeah, they aren't completely useless just like a microscope is not completely useless when you need to hammer a nail. Yeah, you can technically use a microscope for that. But why would you?DocFrost72 wrote: »All pve especially endgame sounds like it still includes normal dungeons, vet dungeons, DLC dungeons, and normal trials. That, and overland questing, makes up most of all PvE.
Or does that not matter to you? If not, no worries! I won't judge the effectiveness of an entire class based on performance in one freaking area.
Do nightblades need buffs for trials? Yes!
Does that mean every one should should stop playing the class? NO.
One more time: When you say "Nightblades are a totally useless class", the Devs will roll their eyes and move along. Speak about what they need (and specifically what stamina needs) in vet trials. Don't jump to gods damned hyperbole that all that matters is hm vet trials, because that is objectively not true.
In ANY type of PvE content there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to bring a NB if you can bring another class. Especially in Trials, vet dungeons and DLC dungeons. No one cares or plays MMOs for overland questing. That's just leveling, not endgame.
And yes, it does that everyone should stop playing the class. At this point, the only people playing it are people who are stuck because all their achievements are on that class or they just love the character. Or they run a weekly with 1 more character to get more loot for their actual characters. Or new players who don't know NBs are the weakest yet. That's all. No other reason.
If people stop playing - that's the only thing that can finally make ZOS buff the class. So yes, people definitely should stop playing for a while. And also yes, if you admit they need buff for trials, I have no idea why you don't see that the same applies to any group content. They need even more buff for 4man dungeons since there they have less group buffs and perform even worse.
The only reason why questing doesn't matter is because you don't play/compete/compare with other players there. ANd yes, every class and builds can complete quests. Because 95% of them are dialogues and walking. But still, some classes are stronger than others. And NB is the weakest at the moment.
Stopped reading at the first line when you used ad hominem fallacy to question my argumentative capabilities.
And I don't understand how no one playing the class and providing feedback with a calm, level head will fix anything, really.
For.
The.
Last.
Time
Yes.
Nightblades.
Need.
Help.
In.
PvE.
Especially.
For.
Hard.
Mode.
Trials.
(Spelled it out clear this time I hope) but they are not dead, we shouldn't stop playing them, and hyperbole isn't constructive criticism. If you want ZoS to listen, I guarantee that it won't be in a thread labeled "expletive expletive ZOS yu ruined Nightblades!"
So to remove all doubt to my message, the TLDR is:
Stamina needs a buff
Nightblades need a buff
Compile actual numbers and possible suggestions for ZoS.
Because if you really want the class fixed, that is how you're going to do it.5 -
Shadzilla✭✭✭✭✭
✭pantshunter wrote: »Templar, untouchable
DK, untouchable
Sorc , hahahahahahahahaha
warden, P2W
so, as you can see, NB is a DPS class, but the healing class and tank class ability can do more damage( more useful as dps ) then a DPS class? where is the logic??
maybe i was wrong to see DK and templar as a tank and healer class, but if you play eso, you know the best tank will be DK, the best healer will be templar ( atm ) and sorc is best AOE damage.
NB? nothing is good for it, you would think they will have the best single target damage as a dps, but not, best single target is DK. so what is left for NB for PVE? you do around 15-20K less damage to a sorc, not as useful as MDK in vet trail ( expressly VMOL)
oh, the one thing that nb is good for and its second best for is VMA! the solo content it beat Templar and DK ^_^ so happy, that just show, if you want to play NB, its only good for solo content, if you want to play group contend, you better get a sorc, because it never get Nerf.
So, its NB dead for group PVE ? to me, yes. but the bright side, its good for doing quest, ''I am sure that is what people do when they lvl it to 50, all skill 50, mage guild 10, fighter guild 10 undaunted 9 just to do the quest'',
Nightblades have never been great for pve, just the way ZOS attempts to balance this game. One day that may change, they need a serious buff and stam morph to twisting path that like doubles its current damage. Might put them towards viable.0 -
Galwylin✭✭✭✭✭Nightblades are that kid who no wants when picking teams in school. Why wouldn't you want a dragonknight, Templar or sorcerer over a nightblade. Fun to play? Sure, why not. Can complete content? Alright. Better than any other class in a role? Only if that role is invisible and no one's discovered it yet. I would think that a nightblade's primary role would be physical damage. So better than a stamina sorcerer. Doesn't mean a stam sorc isn't fun or can complete content. Just they are slightly behind a nightblade. That divides your group up to tank, healer, magicka damage and physical damage. Of course, any class could fit into any role just not do as well. Instead, we have a class that fits no where. Can it even out damage a tank or healer?
At least that's what I would have done since you have three primary roles for groups and four classes. You either have divide the dps or the tanking or healing between two. Would the game be harder without nightblades? Would it be harder without on of the other classes? If it would be without nightblades and would be without one of the other classes then the class needs more thought than 'we hear you'.2 -
Artis✭✭✭✭✭
✭DocFrost72 wrote: »
Are you 12 or something with arguments like that? Yeah, they aren't completely useless just like a microscope is not completely useless when you need to hammer a nail. Yeah, you can technically use a microscope for that. But why would you?DocFrost72 wrote: »All pve especially endgame sounds like it still includes normal dungeons, vet dungeons, DLC dungeons, and normal trials. That, and overland questing, makes up most of all PvE.
Or does that not matter to you? If not, no worries! I won't judge the effectiveness of an entire class based on performance in one freaking area.
Do nightblades need buffs for trials? Yes!
Does that mean every one should should stop playing the class? NO.
One more time: When you say "Nightblades are a totally useless class", the Devs will roll their eyes and move along. Speak about what they need (and specifically what stamina needs) in vet trials. Don't jump to gods damned hyperbole that all that matters is hm vet trials, because that is objectively not true.
In ANY type of PvE content there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to bring a NB if you can bring another class. Especially in Trials, vet dungeons and DLC dungeons. No one cares or plays MMOs for overland questing. That's just leveling, not endgame.
And yes, it does that everyone should stop playing the class. At this point, the only people playing it are people who are stuck because all their achievements are on that class or they just love the character. Or they run a weekly with 1 more character to get more loot for their actual characters. Or new players who don't know NBs are the weakest yet. That's all. No other reason.
If people stop playing - that's the only thing that can finally make ZOS buff the class. So yes, people definitely should stop playing for a while. And also yes, if you admit they need buff for trials, I have no idea why you don't see that the same applies to any group content. They need even more buff for 4man dungeons since there they have less group buffs and perform even worse.
The only reason why questing doesn't matter is because you don't play/compete/compare with other players there. ANd yes, every class and builds can complete quests. Because 95% of them are dialogues and walking. But still, some classes are stronger than others. And NB is the weakest at the moment.
Stopped reading at the first line when you used ad hominem fallacy to question my argumentative capabilities.
And I don't understand how no one playing the class and providing feedback with a calm, level head will fix anything, really.
For.
The.
Last.
Time
Yes.
Nightblades.
Need.
Help.
In.
PvE.
Especially.
For.
Hard.
Mode.
Trials.
(Spelled it out clear this time I hope) but they are not dead, we shouldn't stop playing them, and hyperbole isn't constructive criticism. If you want ZoS to listen, I guarantee that it won't be in a thread labeled "expletive expletive ZOS yu ruined Nightblades!"
So to remove all doubt to my message, the TLDR is:
Stamina needs a buff
Nightblades need a buff
Compile actual numbers and possible suggestions for ZoS.
Because if you really want the class fixed, that is how you're going to do it.
if you can't read past the first line, go back to elementary. You can't debate with adults. Disrespecting you for saying something dumb is not ad hominem. It's you needing to show you deserve respect first.
No, unfortunately that's how you're achieving nothing. People have been pointing out that NBs bring nothing to the group (except for damage) since beta tests in 2013. After NBs lost damage, people have been pointing out that they are lacking even damage and are useless for the last year. And NOTHING changed. The leaderboards are there for zos to see. The parses are there for zos to see. All the threads - that all didn't lead to anything good.
The only way to REALLY make them think is to stop playing for most people. Which they did, and you couldn't find a NB on leaderboards. So we got a Twisting Path buff, which wasn't enough,but at least something.
See, if you watched the last ESO live you should know that they base their decisions on "hard data". And that's definitely not DPS numbers, since in that case DPS would be balanced long time ago. The only hard data we can give them so they do something - is to play other classes.Nightblades have never been great for pve, just the way ZOS attempts to balance this game. One day that may change, they need a serious buff and stam morph to twisting path that like doubles its current damage. Might put them towards viable.
They were pretty good before CP and maybe even first time of CP. Not sure, but definitely sure that they were very good in 2014, before CP and especially in time of dynamic ulti generation. Very high DPS maybe even top that was achieved with Funnel Health and Veil - so that's heals and damage mitigation to a group. And yes, veil WAS needed back then.1 -
KingMagaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭Any class can do almost all PvE in whatever it's nerfed to hell.
Stam blade play vTrials your just getting carried through, not by merit.
PvP?, Enjoy playing against Miatts addon and others that negate any advantage the NB had.
Class is unplayable ATM and Stam blade is/was my main at 110days played.Edited by KingMagaw on May 10, 2017 6:55AM0 -
Kiwi✭✭✭✭apples and oranges
my car goes faster than my bike but i enjoy my bike moreEdited by Kiwi on May 10, 2017 7:06AMA large rectangle
0 -
Meld777✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »
It's a perspective thing. I always have 50k+ in fights with adds. What matters is single target.
As one of the (maybe the) last Nightblades left in competitive PvE on PC EU, this is my experience for ST:
1st Boss vMoL:
mSorc 55k
mNB 45k
mSorc 52k
mNB 42k
Now if you consider AoE...
mSorc 75k
mNB 54k
There is a hard gap of 10k on single target. Please trust me when I tell you that I can tell the difference between a perfect rotation and a bad try. These numbers are taken from perfect attempts for both me and our best Sorc. While you could of course question my personal skill, know that I spent months refining perfect rotations, positioning, and tested every gear setup possible to get that last 0.1% dps out of it.
On PTS, there's no point talking about mNB. The gap between NBs and Sorcs increased significantly.
BTW, my record on first boss vMoL is 49k single target. And I had 50k+ single target on other bosses before. This is an RNG game, and sometimes you get more crits than average, better positioning, procs, etc. However, in order for an equally-skilled Sorc and NB to deal the same ST DPS in a boss fight, the NB must get very lucky and the Sorc must not get a single frags proc and get every single curse.Edited by Meld777 on May 10, 2017 8:17AMMaelstrom Arena Champion | Undaunted | Fighters Guild Victor
Level 50 Magicka NB | CP160+
nAA | vCoH1 HM | nSO | nCoA2 | nDSA | nMA | vVoM
PC EU2 -
Fhaerron✭✭✭Why is Warden P2W?
Many games (especially MMO's) charge money for expansions even certain F2P games.
For example on FF XIV you have to pay for the Stormblood expansion which is coming soon and that will have 2 new jobs (Samurai & Red Mage). (To soon to know if they will be 'best DPS' classes at this point)
The Legion expansion for WoW included the new Demon Hunter class. (The Demon Hunter was pretty high on the DPS charts for a long time, not sure how it is now as I no longer play the game)
The Heart of Thorns expansion for GW2 included the Revenant class. (Can't say much on this because I quit the game before the expansion was even released but I heared a lot of people saying that it was a fun and great class to play back at launch of the expansion?)
So by that logic the above games are all pay to win because the expansions added new classes to the game?0
