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Racial Passives are heavily imbalanced.
Ruby437
Soul Shriven
I want to talk real quickly on why I believe that racial passives are currently in a bad state in terms of balance between the races:
There are 3 races that are currently dominating the meta for all DPS, who are namely the Altmer(Highelf), Khajiiit and Redguard. If we look at their racial passives, we notice something that they all have in common: 3 passives that apply at all times.
The Altmer is the king on that with having Magicka Recovery, Max Magicka and 4% damage increase on all magic based elemental damage. Basically, to a sorcerer this applies to all but crystal frags and curse, to a DK this applies to everything, for templars and nightblades it applies to less skills, but there is no comparable race for them so people usually either go Altmer or Dunmer, which increases a specific damage type that is currently dominating the meta (Fire).
The Khajiit has 3 racial passives that aren't balanced against each other, but one of them is really strong: Carnage increases weapon crit chance by 8%. This is, without class passives or the shadow mundus a damage increase of 4%, as default crit multiplier is 1.5. This is even stronger on shadow or being a nightblade. Then they have 10% stamina regen, which is pretty standard for all stamina races. They also have 20% health recovery, but with the rise of vampires, something becomes clear: aside from Troll King, nobody cares about health recovery, as its so little that people generally don't rely on it as they are using heal skills. Then they have the stealthy passive, which is exclusive to PvP, and is mostly just stealth detection radius reduction, as 10% extra damage from sneak only applies to the first strike, which isn't too relevant for most builds.
The third and last one I'd like to look at is Redguard. This race gets 9% stamina recovery, a little less than khajiit, 10% maximum stamina and a passive that is heavily being nerfed in the current state of morrowind, as the race is the king of sustain, restoring resources by using melee attacks, so it is active all the time for stamina users, as most of them are in melee for most of their time.
Now, if we look at other races, we find some very situational passives: Breton has Spell resistance, which is still decent, and 3% cost reduction, which is weaker than 9% extra recovery, but not by a huge margin. Dunmer are currently popular on the Dragonknight as all their damage is fire based, but they have a passive that only works in certain situations: Flame resistance. This is balanced out by their extra fire damage, which is the best damage time for damage dealing right now, as the condition can trigger extra damage, and some skills doing extra damage if used in their fire version. Now to the heavily underused races: Woodelf has a passive that increases Poison and Disease resistance, which currently only occur in very few cases, in PvP it pretty much only affects nightblades and dragonknights, as other classes barely have any disease or poison damage. They also have the PvP only passive Stealthy, weakness described in the Khajiit section.
The races I didn't list yet, namely Argonian, Orc, Nord and Imperial are clearly not made for plain PvE DPS, which is why I intentionally left them out, as they are a whole different topic.
Whats your thought on that? As a Woodelf Nightblade player, I really want to play the character in PvE next update, but I'm afraid of losing 5-10% DPS just because I chose a race that has weak racial passives. For that race I have a small suggestion on how to fix it: Reduce the Stamina recovery and increase poison and disease damage, or add a different passive that would not only make the race more competitive, but also feel more unique than 'more regen,but not as much as redguard, resistance against stamina nightblades'.
There are 3 races that are currently dominating the meta for all DPS, who are namely the Altmer(Highelf), Khajiiit and Redguard. If we look at their racial passives, we notice something that they all have in common: 3 passives that apply at all times.
The Altmer is the king on that with having Magicka Recovery, Max Magicka and 4% damage increase on all magic based elemental damage. Basically, to a sorcerer this applies to all but crystal frags and curse, to a DK this applies to everything, for templars and nightblades it applies to less skills, but there is no comparable race for them so people usually either go Altmer or Dunmer, which increases a specific damage type that is currently dominating the meta (Fire).
The Khajiit has 3 racial passives that aren't balanced against each other, but one of them is really strong: Carnage increases weapon crit chance by 8%. This is, without class passives or the shadow mundus a damage increase of 4%, as default crit multiplier is 1.5. This is even stronger on shadow or being a nightblade. Then they have 10% stamina regen, which is pretty standard for all stamina races. They also have 20% health recovery, but with the rise of vampires, something becomes clear: aside from Troll King, nobody cares about health recovery, as its so little that people generally don't rely on it as they are using heal skills. Then they have the stealthy passive, which is exclusive to PvP, and is mostly just stealth detection radius reduction, as 10% extra damage from sneak only applies to the first strike, which isn't too relevant for most builds.
The third and last one I'd like to look at is Redguard. This race gets 9% stamina recovery, a little less than khajiit, 10% maximum stamina and a passive that is heavily being nerfed in the current state of morrowind, as the race is the king of sustain, restoring resources by using melee attacks, so it is active all the time for stamina users, as most of them are in melee for most of their time.
Now, if we look at other races, we find some very situational passives: Breton has Spell resistance, which is still decent, and 3% cost reduction, which is weaker than 9% extra recovery, but not by a huge margin. Dunmer are currently popular on the Dragonknight as all their damage is fire based, but they have a passive that only works in certain situations: Flame resistance. This is balanced out by their extra fire damage, which is the best damage time for damage dealing right now, as the condition can trigger extra damage, and some skills doing extra damage if used in their fire version. Now to the heavily underused races: Woodelf has a passive that increases Poison and Disease resistance, which currently only occur in very few cases, in PvP it pretty much only affects nightblades and dragonknights, as other classes barely have any disease or poison damage. They also have the PvP only passive Stealthy, weakness described in the Khajiit section.
The races I didn't list yet, namely Argonian, Orc, Nord and Imperial are clearly not made for plain PvE DPS, which is why I intentionally left them out, as they are a whole different topic.
Whats your thought on that? As a Woodelf Nightblade player, I really want to play the character in PvE next update, but I'm afraid of losing 5-10% DPS just because I chose a race that has weak racial passives. For that race I have a small suggestion on how to fix it: Reduce the Stamina recovery and increase poison and disease damage, or add a different passive that would not only make the race more competitive, but also feel more unique than 'more regen,but not as much as redguard, resistance against stamina nightblades'.
1
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Tigeracer✭✭✭✭I find that the balance between the classes is great, actually. You are correct in saying that they aren't all optimised for DPS, but that's what makes it more balanced.
A race that dominates in DPS, isn't going to play well as a tank or healer.
I think you are completely incorrect about Bosmer though. Any race that has an increase to max stats is definitely at the top of the DPS game. You say that Khajiit are at the top due to crit chance, but there is no max stat increase for Khajiit.
I personally play a mix of PVP and PVE and Bosmer are crawling all over both.2 -
raasdal✭✭✭✭✭
✭Races are in quite fine balance if you ask me - and i have PvP Perspective.
Only change i would like to see, was Health Regen on Argonian, to open this avenue up for magicka players more easily.
Other than that, each race are BiS (yes, even Argonians - especially with their decent buff for Morrowind) for some very specific builds.
But of course; If we are talking PvE DPS or PvE Healer or anything PvE, there will never be more than 1-2 choices, if you want the best result. There will ALWAYS be something that is BiS, since PvE does not really allow for theorycrafting based on mechanics. PvE is all about the stats and the numbers.PC - EU
Gromag Gro-Molag - Sorcerer - EP
Dexion Velus - Dragonknight - AD
Chalaux Erissa - Nightblade - AD
Firiel Erissa - Templar - AD2 -
psychotic13✭✭✭✭✭
✭Racial balance is actually pretty good, the only one I think could do with tweaking is Breton, but then again that cost reduction will be stronger come Morrowind
Edit: you also touched upon wood elves, imo they're best suited for pvp. Not every race will be great for PvE. It's more well rounded in pvp for example my opinion of best race for pvp would be as follow:
Sorcerer - Altmer
Stamina Sorcerer - Orc
MagDK - Dunmer
StamDK - Redguard
Stamblade - Bosmer
Magblade - Breton/Altmer/Dunmer
Magplar - Breton/Altmer
Stamplar - Redguard
And then you'll get people going argonians/nord/imperials as tank/healers to so it really is pretty balanced
As for PvE you can't have every race pulling top DPS there ment for different things, they're not supposed to mirror each other that would be very borongEdited by psychotic13 on April 30, 2017 1:56PM2 -
OrphanHelgen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭You forgot dunmer.
Also, after CP change, breton will be more viable.
People starting taking imperial before redguard after the redguard nerf and for the hp that helps alot in trials.
Recovery in general doesn't help pve alot, but is more needed in pvp, which is where wood elf is a strong choice.
In my opinion, only race that is not good for dps is nord and argonian, allthough nord got max stam bonus buff.PC, EU server, Ebonheart Pact
Finally a reason not to play League of Legends1 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Breton costreduce is better than highelf regen - especially in situations where skills get spammed every gcd or on templates with very little magica regeneration on gear.
The reason why breton is not desireable is that they parse considerably lower than highelves in the current meta.Edited by Derra on April 30, 2017 8:05PM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 501 -
Micah_Bayer✭✭✭✭✭I want to talk real quickly on why I believe that racial passives are currently in a bad state in terms of balance between the races:
There are 3 races that are currently dominating the meta for all DPS, who are namely the Altmer(Highelf), Khajiiit and Redguard. If we look at their racial passives, we notice something that they all have in common: 3 passives that apply at all times.
The Altmer is the king on that with having Magicka Recovery, Max Magicka and 4% damage increase on all magic based elemental damage. Basically, to a sorcerer this applies to all but crystal frags and curse, to a DK this applies to everything, for templars and nightblades it applies to less skills, but there is no comparable race for them so people usually either go Altmer or Dunmer, which increases a specific damage type that is currently dominating the meta (Fire).
The Khajiit has 3 racial passives that aren't balanced against each other, but one of them is really strong: Carnage increases weapon crit chance by 8%. This is, without class passives or the shadow mundus a damage increase of 4%, as default crit multiplier is 1.5. This is even stronger on shadow or being a nightblade. Then they have 10% stamina regen, which is pretty standard for all stamina races. They also have 20% health recovery, but with the rise of vampires, something becomes clear: aside from Troll King, nobody cares about health recovery, as its so little that people generally don't rely on it as they are using heal skills. Then they have the stealthy passive, which is exclusive to PvP, and is mostly just stealth detection radius reduction, as 10% extra damage from sneak only applies to the first strike, which isn't too relevant for most builds.
The third and last one I'd like to look at is Redguard. This race gets 9% stamina recovery, a little less than khajiit, 10% maximum stamina and a passive that is heavily being nerfed in the current state of morrowind, as the race is the king of sustain, restoring resources by using melee attacks, so it is active all the time for stamina users, as most of them are in melee for most of their time.
Now, if we look at other races, we find some very situational passives: Breton has Spell resistance, which is still decent, and 3% cost reduction, which is weaker than 9% extra recovery, but not by a huge margin. Dunmer are currently popular on the Dragonknight as all their damage is fire based, but they have a passive that only works in certain situations: Flame resistance. This is balanced out by their extra fire damage, which is the best damage time for damage dealing right now, as the condition can trigger extra damage, and some skills doing extra damage if used in their fire version. Now to the heavily underused races: Woodelf has a passive that increases Poison and Disease resistance, which currently only occur in very few cases, in PvP it pretty much only affects nightblades and dragonknights, as other classes barely have any disease or poison damage. They also have the PvP only passive Stealthy, weakness described in the Khajiit section.
The races I didn't list yet, namely Argonian, Orc, Nord and Imperial are clearly not made for plain PvE DPS, which is why I intentionally left them out, as they are a whole different topic.
Whats your thought on that? As a Woodelf Nightblade player, I really want to play the character in PvE next update, but I'm afraid of losing 5-10% DPS just because I chose a race that has weak racial passives. For that race I have a small suggestion on how to fix it: Reduce the Stamina recovery and increase poison and disease damage, or add a different passive that would not only make the race more competitive, but also feel more unique than 'more regen,but not as much as redguard, resistance against stamina nightblades'.
It's only elemental dmg not magic based0 -
WuffyCerulei✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Argonians are probably the only race that can be any role and any build, cuz that potion rebate is amazing. And with the extra health, poison/disease resistance, and both healing done and received (which stacks for self heals), they have really good survivability.For the love of Kyne, buff sorc. PC NACP 2100+Star-Sïnger - Khajiit Magicka Sorc - EP Grand Overlord - Flawless Conqueror vMA/vBRP/vDSA no death/vHel Ra HM/vAA HM/vSO HM/vMoL HM/vHoF HM/vAS +2/vCR+3/vSS HMs/vKA HMs/vVH/vRG Oax HM/vDSR1 -
Tigeracer✭✭✭✭WuffyCerulei wrote: »Argonians are probably the only race that can be any role and any build, cuz that potion rebate is amazing. And with the extra health, poison/disease resistance, and both healing done and received (which stacks for self heals), they have really good survivability.
Anything with bonuses to magicka can also play all three roles.0 -
Trinity_Is_My_Name✭✭✭✭✭
✭The races aren't the same therefore they have different passives. They are not supposed to be "balanced". This is where we get diversity to make different builds.0 -
Ruby437Soul ShrivenWhat I wanted to express is that some races have more universally useful passives, while others have very situational ones, like the poison resistance and the frost resistance.0
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waitwhat✭✭✭✭✭Yeah, no offence to the other walkers out there, but khajiit healer isn't taken very seriously.
DPS isn't everything, and versatility is more likely to be OP/imbalanced than specialization.PS4 NA AD ScourgeVivec Loading Screen Simulator 2017
Khajiit stamblade main - Walking the Two-Moons Path and robbing cute Breton boys.
Breton magplar vet Trial Healer - Promoting wellness through self-reflection.
Argonian Tripot DK Cyrodiil Tank - One with the Hist and guarding cute Breton boys.
Altmer magsorc PvE DPS - Scamp tramp and unrepentant lush.
"30s to eval"
"Read the ******* lorebook."0 -
subtlezeroub17_ESO✭✭✭✭Trinity_Is_My_Name wrote: »The races aren't the same therefore they have different passives. They are not supposed to be "balanced". This is where we get diversity to make different builds.
Imo it actually restricts versatility because people are picking races based on what they like, they are picking them based on the ups and downs of racial passives.
The result, for example, is that you'll find one month of nothing but the same magicka dps high elves then next month they're all dunmer and so on and so forth.
Or, you could say that racial passives being so strong shoehorns races into one play style only. How is that even appropriate for an mmo that encourages diversity? What you find is that every time you see a certain race ,they're all the same play style. There's no creativity because the racials being so strong discourages wandering off the beaten path into a non optimal playstyle.Edited by subtlezeroub17_ESO on May 2, 2017 3:02AM1 -
Nord_Templar✭✭✭
The main idea is correct. But equality is an illusion. There is no equality. Each races has its own advantage. Initially, it was conceived to create colorful, different in composition groups of players, so that each member of the group would be of use. This system came from games that were released earlier.
I do not think that to fight in the Arena, to representatives of two different races, with different abilities - this is correct and fair. In PvP, especially where just a pack gnaws madly with another flock.
I think that an honest fight is a fight between units (for example, a group of 3 vampires against a group of 6 ordinary knights).
Of course, I will never believe that an ordinary warrior with a sword and shield can fight the Werewolf. If the player uses the bonuses from Daedra, he must be ready to fight alone against a group of hunters on werewolves.
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Armann✭✭✭Strider_Roshin wrote: »Why am I the only person that likes Nords :-\
You're not the only person, my issue has been the difficulty of not having a class that Nords fit to, well there's DKs but the community usually prefer other races even as tanks.
With the Warden I think my Nord finally found his class, frost based tanking, fitting theme for a Nord.EU megaserver | XboxNord Nightblade | Ebonheart PactImperial Dragonknight | Ebonheart PactDunmer Sorcerer | Ebonheart PactDunmer Warden | Ebonheart PactOrc Necromancer | Daggerfall CovenantAltmer Templar | Aldmeri Dominion0 -
JonnytheKing✭✭✭✭DO POEPLE FORGET THAT THERE IS PVP IN THIS GAME
that is allTWITCH jtk__gaming
GM of Elder-Skills DC PVP Guild NA
Main Toons
MagSorc
MagTemp0 -
Strider_Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Strider_Roshin wrote: »Why am I the only person that likes Nords :-\
You're not the only person, my issue has been the difficulty of not having a class that Nords fit to, well there's DKs but the community usually prefer other races even as tanks.
With the Warden I think my Nord finally found his class, frost based tanking, fitting theme for a Nord.
Yeah but then you're choosing a Nord for RP reasons rather than for their passives.0 -
Armann✭✭✭Strider_Roshin wrote: »Strider_Roshin wrote: »Why am I the only person that likes Nords :-\
You're not the only person, my issue has been the difficulty of not having a class that Nords fit to, well there's DKs but the community usually prefer other races even as tanks.
With the Warden I think my Nord finally found his class, frost based tanking, fitting theme for a Nord.
Yeah but then you're choosing a Nord for RP reasons rather than for their passives.
Not entirely, frost tree has some max hp scaling skills in there that fits with the Nord racials.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cqmuccwr4Q Edited by Armann on May 2, 2017 11:55AMEU megaserver | XboxNord Nightblade | Ebonheart PactImperial Dragonknight | Ebonheart PactDunmer Sorcerer | Ebonheart PactDunmer Warden | Ebonheart PactOrc Necromancer | Daggerfall CovenantAltmer Templar | Aldmeri Dominion0 -
IlCanis_LupuslI✭✭✭✭✭I want to talk real quickly on why I believe that racial passives are currently in a bad state in terms of balance between the races:
There are 3 races that are currently dominating the meta for all DPS, who are namely the Altmer(Highelf), Khajiiit and Redguard. If we look at their racial passives, we notice something that they all have in common: 3 passives that apply at all times.
The Altmer is the king on that with having Magicka Recovery, Max Magicka and 4% damage increase on all magic based elemental damage. Basically, to a sorcerer this applies to all but crystal frags and curse, to a DK this applies to everything, for templars and nightblades it applies to less skills, but there is no comparable race for them so people usually either go Altmer or Dunmer, which increases a specific damage type that is currently dominating the meta (Fire).
The Khajiit has 3 racial passives that aren't balanced against each other, but one of them is really strong: Carnage increases weapon crit chance by 8%. This is, without class passives or the shadow mundus a damage increase of 4%, as default crit multiplier is 1.5. This is even stronger on shadow or being a nightblade. Then they have 10% stamina regen, which is pretty standard for all stamina races. They also have 20% health recovery, but with the rise of vampires, something becomes clear: aside from Troll King, nobody cares about health recovery, as its so little that people generally don't rely on it as they are using heal skills. Then they have the stealthy passive, which is exclusive to PvP, and is mostly just stealth detection radius reduction, as 10% extra damage from sneak only applies to the first strike, which isn't too relevant for most builds.
The third and last one I'd like to look at is Redguard. This race gets 9% stamina recovery, a little less than khajiit, 10% maximum stamina and a passive that is heavily being nerfed in the current state of morrowind, as the race is the king of sustain, restoring resources by using melee attacks, so it is active all the time for stamina users, as most of them are in melee for most of their time.
Now, if we look at other races, we find some very situational passives: Breton has Spell resistance, which is still decent, and 3% cost reduction, which is weaker than 9% extra recovery, but not by a huge margin. Dunmer are currently popular on the Dragonknight as all their damage is fire based, but they have a passive that only works in certain situations: Flame resistance. This is balanced out by their extra fire damage, which is the best damage time for damage dealing right now, as the condition can trigger extra damage, and some skills doing extra damage if used in their fire version. Now to the heavily underused races: Woodelf has a passive that increases Poison and Disease resistance, which currently only occur in very few cases, in PvP it pretty much only affects nightblades and dragonknights, as other classes barely have any disease or poison damage. They also have the PvP only passive Stealthy, weakness described in the Khajiit section.
The races I didn't list yet, namely Argonian, Orc, Nord and Imperial are clearly not made for plain PvE DPS, which is why I intentionally left them out, as they are a whole different topic.
Whats your thought on that? As a Woodelf Nightblade player, I really want to play the character in PvE next update, but I'm afraid of losing 5-10% DPS just because I chose a race that has weak racial passives. For that race I have a small suggestion on how to fix it: Reduce the Stamina recovery and increase poison and disease damage, or add a different passive that would not only make the race more competitive, but also feel more unique than 'more regen,but not as much as redguard, resistance against stamina nightblades'.
I play a woodelf stamblade and since stamina nb are crap in pve anyway and i already got carried through all the vet raids with my measily 30k dps im only doing pvp on it. I made myself a healbot for pve to keep in touch with pve content
Xbox-EU-AD
Khajiit Night blade Healer(BiS for cuteness)-Flawless Conquerer Grand Overlord
Khajiit Stamsorc Werewolf, Flawless Conquerer (1st attempt ww form during the entire dungeon) main
Khajiit(Master Race) Templar Healer, Flawless Conquerer
Khajiit Stam dk, Flawless conquerer, 2nd attempt
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQhCmVHwZioVyTEDberxGtA?view_as=public
Werewolf Veteran player, Since Wrathstone-DLC "Raid-Wolf", 50k dps with fracture, Pvp Healer.0 -
AcadianPaladin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭My character is a Bosmer. Has been so through Oblivion and Skyrim and that is not going to change. Yet she prefers to play as a magic character. Sigh. A curse she lives with. At least she can dodge-roll and block a bit better than the industry standard 'magic' races.
I don't like that every member of the same race comes out of the exact same box regarding stats and size. Surely, once in awhile, there is a tiny magically inclined orc born. Or a small melee inclined Altmer. Being small for a Bosmer is ingrained in who my elf is, but we do miss having to deny the fact that (for roleplay) she was (in the other games) born with more magical talent. For a game that touts build your character anyway you like, I find the character generation options to be rather a cramped box of constraints.Edited by AcadianPaladin on May 2, 2017 12:15PMPC NA(no Steam), PvE, mostly solo0 -
WalksonGraves✭✭✭✭✭
✭ArgonianJonnytheKing wrote: »DO POEPLE FORGET THAT THERE IS PVP IN THIS GAME
that is all
Trust me the other 99% of us are well aware of your mini game, it's the reason ESO has become as balanced as a one legged drunk at sea with an ear infection.1 -
CTSCold✭✭✭I would like to see the Bosmer 'dmg from stealth passive' changed to a 'ranged dmg passive'. Basically a ranged version of the orcs melee dmg passive.
At least until we get a full bow rework.1 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I would like to see the Bosmer 'dmg from stealth passive' changed to a 'ranged dmg passive'. Basically a ranged version of the orcs melee dmg passive.
At least until we get a full bow rework.
This, but not to take it too far. I would be for any passive that replaces those USELESS stealth passives that have 0 use in PVE outside of those stealth mission and 0 use in PVP outside of ganking or hiding...
When you play Bosmer Medium Armor Nightblade it almost feels like 1/3 of your potential is lost unless you gank.Edited by SodanTok on May 3, 2017 6:31PM0 -
Sakiri✭✭✭✭✭
✭Strider_Roshin wrote: »Why am I the only person that likes Nords :-\
My stamblade is Nord and my stamDK is Nord. My magplar healer is Nord.
My stamsorc is bosmer and my warden will be khajiit.
I'm probably one of the few that picks race based on what I like over what's best.0