Is tapping down your trigger a violation?

zaria · May 2017

WhitePawPrints wrote: »

Jacozilla wrote: »

WhitePawPrints wrote: »

Jacozilla wrote: »

JasonSilverSpring wrote: »

Yes, it is against the TOS to tape down the trigger or to use something like a rubber band to accomplish the same task. ZOS has posted this clearly. Any actions occurring not by your own direct control is an issue.

To be fair, I don't see ZOS going after someone because they automate the issue of a mouse down event with some means to continue it indefinitely until a mouse up event is passed.

They are against unattended play - meaning regardless how you issue the commands, if you are the one actively initiating and stopping them, that is regular play. If you are not, then that is unattended play and if caught - more likely to be enforced as TOS violation.

If automated mouse down events were the sole trigger, every handicap, arthritis, repetitive stress, etc player using built in OS supported alternative input devices or controls would be banned. Which they are not.

for example, right out of the box, Windows supports changing your mouse at any time so that a mouse left or right click can be pressed just once and it is held down automatically for you, until you press it again to give the mouse up signal. This is for people who have any sort of accessability issue that makes it easier to use the mouse this way vs continuously hold mouse button down mode.

So taping the mouse down is not needed, just enable what every operating system I know of provides as matter of course. The way the TOS is written, it allows ZOS to basically ban any player for any reason, at any time. But I don't see them going after some who is actively there, attending their play, but using alternate accessability controls.

*which they can't detect anyways because all that can be tracked is the mouse down and up events, not how those events were passed to the server.

It is very easy to tell the difference between someone who rubberbanded versus someone with that function on. If someone has that function on and is playing the game, they will be moving and capable of responding to player chat. Simple as that. So... you'll still be banned no matter the story you make up if you're rubberbanding.

Good thing you are not ZOS.

Because I've never rubber banded, don't use Microsoft's alternative mouse controls because I don't need it, but I don't move at all until the dolmen ends.

I sit in my daedric minefield and just let the mobs come to me If solo or with very few people, and if with zerg no point moving as things die so fast anyways.

What you are describing as the issue, which I agree with, is players who don't EVER move. As in before the dolmen, after the dolmen, they are parked at same spot forever basically. That CAN be detected - simple x, y, z co-ords of your character at same position for multiple # of dolmen spawns. Fair enough.

What CANT be detected is precisely what I stated - a mouse down event passed to the server via a player actively holding regular mouse down, via alternative control function where mouse down is automatically continued until same button is clicked again, or primitive rubber band vs software methods doing same thing.

My sole contention was that if automated mouse down events were the criteria, then players who were not doing unattended play would be caught up in the net. Which again, is a good thing you are not ZOS. Inquisition much?

If you move after a dolmen, then you're obviously not rubberbanding and therefore should not be subjected to the restrictions of automated play that is on the TOS. Have you seen bots? They're so painfully obvious, that ZOS should not even care about someone who's skillset is standing still and worry about them violating the TOS regarding automated play.

Rubberbanding is the primary issue and is easily detectable. Using third party software, even for those with special needs, is still against the TOS and is subject to ZOS investigation, and they make that decision.

The point is rubberbanding automated play is very easy to detect, as you admitted. So if someone tries to defend their ways by saying "I'm handicap, and I use this software".. that won't fly.

Saw one player on pc doing volley over and over on an dolmen.
This was an macro as he shot again every 8 or 10 second, however he not standing there after we killed dolmen.
I guess he was AfK and enabled the macro, he came back before dolmen ended and continued to play.
Only thing I have seen on pc lately.
Who know who many uses macros for animation canceling however

Elsonso · May 2017

johnnified wrote: »

However it isn't against the rules on a PC if you have your laptop on your lap watching TV and holding down the left mouse button and casually looking at the screen.

It isn't "Unattended" play

Can't tell if you are serious or joking. Don't act like someone who is rubberbanding.

WhitePawPrints · May 2017

zaria wrote: »

WhitePawPrints wrote: »

Jacozilla wrote: »

WhitePawPrints wrote: »

Jacozilla wrote: »

JasonSilverSpring wrote: »

Yes, it is against the TOS to tape down the trigger or to use something like a rubber band to accomplish the same task. ZOS has posted this clearly. Any actions occurring not by your own direct control is an issue.

To be fair, I don't see ZOS going after someone because they automate the issue of a mouse down event with some means to continue it indefinitely until a mouse up event is passed.

They are against unattended play - meaning regardless how you issue the commands, if you are the one actively initiating and stopping them, that is regular play. If you are not, then that is unattended play and if caught - more likely to be enforced as TOS violation.

If automated mouse down events were the sole trigger, every handicap, arthritis, repetitive stress, etc player using built in OS supported alternative input devices or controls would be banned. Which they are not.

for example, right out of the box, Windows supports changing your mouse at any time so that a mouse left or right click can be pressed just once and it is held down automatically for you, until you press it again to give the mouse up signal. This is for people who have any sort of accessability issue that makes it easier to use the mouse this way vs continuously hold mouse button down mode.

So taping the mouse down is not needed, just enable what every operating system I know of provides as matter of course. The way the TOS is written, it allows ZOS to basically ban any player for any reason, at any time. But I don't see them going after some who is actively there, attending their play, but using alternate accessability controls.

*which they can't detect anyways because all that can be tracked is the mouse down and up events, not how those events were passed to the server.

It is very easy to tell the difference between someone who rubberbanded versus someone with that function on. If someone has that function on and is playing the game, they will be moving and capable of responding to player chat. Simple as that. So... you'll still be banned no matter the story you make up if you're rubberbanding.

Good thing you are not ZOS.

Because I've never rubber banded, don't use Microsoft's alternative mouse controls because I don't need it, but I don't move at all until the dolmen ends.

I sit in my daedric minefield and just let the mobs come to me If solo or with very few people, and if with zerg no point moving as things die so fast anyways.

What you are describing as the issue, which I agree with, is players who don't EVER move. As in before the dolmen, after the dolmen, they are parked at same spot forever basically. That CAN be detected - simple x, y, z co-ords of your character at same position for multiple # of dolmen spawns. Fair enough.

What CANT be detected is precisely what I stated - a mouse down event passed to the server via a player actively holding regular mouse down, via alternative control function where mouse down is automatically continued until same button is clicked again, or primitive rubber band vs software methods doing same thing.

My sole contention was that if automated mouse down events were the criteria, then players who were not doing unattended play would be caught up in the net. Which again, is a good thing you are not ZOS. Inquisition much?

If you move after a dolmen, then you're obviously not rubberbanding and therefore should not be subjected to the restrictions of automated play that is on the TOS. Have you seen bots? They're so painfully obvious, that ZOS should not even care about someone who's skillset is standing still and worry about them violating the TOS regarding automated play.

Rubberbanding is the primary issue and is easily detectable. Using third party software, even for those with special needs, is still against the TOS and is subject to ZOS investigation, and they make that decision.

The point is rubberbanding automated play is very easy to detect, as you admitted. So if someone tries to defend their ways by saying "I'm handicap, and I use this software".. that won't fly.

Saw one player on pc doing volley over and over on an dolmen.
This was an macro as he shot again every 8 or 10 second, however he not standing there after we killed dolmen.
I guess he was AfK and enabled the macro, he came back before dolmen ended and continued to play.
Only thing I have seen on pc lately.
Who know who many uses macros for animation canceling however

I have seen a sorcerer that light attacked and macro'd to cast shields on himself and his pet. Easy to detect when they're attacking with no dolmen down and no enemies to be attacked, and do so for multiple hours.

Marco's are against the ToS and are an offense warranting ban time. Player's actively using them are difficult to detect though. It doesn't help when ZoS is flooded with reports of Macro-use whenever a player reports it when they're killed in Cyrodil. I've had myself, and my group of two others reported for using macros when we took a keep and killed the Emperor that was defending that keep, with just the three of us. Apparently he thought he became Emperor by being good....

Jollygoodusername · May 2017

My mouse has an auto click function for light attacks, I can easily do this at Dolmens and have. I just don't see it being worthwhile since I get DC'd from the NA server every 5-10 min. If I'm lucky, there isn't an Error 200 at login. Honestly, doesn't matter to me when and where someone goes afk, that's their business.

O_LYKOS · May 2017

A lot of people report every player at dolmens doing this. So I wouldn't recommend it.

S1ipperyJim · May 2017

Jacozilla wrote: »

I don't see ZOS going after someone because they automate the issue of a mouse down event

You're wrong, ZOS ban people all the time for this, and have specifically confirmed it is against the Terms of Service.

Also, hilarious the way you obfuscated 'taping down the mouse button' into this: "they automate the issue of a mouse down event with some means to continue it indefinitely until a mouse up event is passed." looool.

You need a reality check.

People aren't "attending their play" at dolmens, they are AFK, anyone with half a brain can tell that, they get killed by monsters because they don't move, they lay there dead for hours, they don't rotate dolmens like everyone else playing the game, they sit their characters deliberately on rooftops and rocks to try to be safe from attack while AFK...need I go on. Trying to explain away their cheating is enabling their cheating behaviour which needs to be stamped out by ZOS. Also, for the use of macros are also against the TOS.

Jacozilla · May 2017

S1ipperyJim wrote: »

Jacozilla wrote: »

I don't see ZOS going after someone because they automate the issue of a mouse down event

You're wrong, ZOS ban people all the time for this, and have specifically confirmed it is against the Terms of Service.

Also, hilarious the way you obfuscated 'taping down the mouse button' into this: "they automate the issue of a mouse down event with some means to continue it indefinitely until a mouse up event is passed." looool.

You need a reality check.

People aren't "attending their play" at dolmens, they are AFK, anyone with half a brain can tell that, they get killed by monsters because they don't move, they lay there dead for hours, they don't rotate dolmens like everyone else playing the game, they sit their characters deliberately on rooftops and rocks to try to be safe from attack while AFK...need I go on. Trying to explain away their cheating is enabling their cheating behaviour which needs to be stamped out by ZOS. Also, for the use of macros are also against the TOS.

Just to be clear so we're not mixing our arguments and disagreeing over something we apparently both agree on -

-I am not for botting or unattended play. I am against it, and agree if you are not controlling your character actively, that is unattended play.

-ZOS TOS is so open ended they have the right to ban you for pretty much any reason, no reason, whatever. So I have no issue with ZOS terminating access to any player they deem in unattended play

So, with the above caveats, let's take your response - you are basically saying ZOS will ban people for automating the issue of a mouse down event - that is my statement, that's the quote you quoted of me above.

Not sure if you understand what the technical description of mouse down event really means, but assuming you do, what you are saying is anyone that does the following will and should be banned:

1- use a handicapped access device for people with arthristis, repetitive stress in wrists, etc that makes holding down the mouse button easier (e.g. common ways being mouse that accepts 1 click to press down, another click to indicate up)

2- any person who enables the built in, OS function like in Windows to turn on mouse accessability controls to do same thing as #1

Sorry - but not only are you wrong, but there is no way ZOS would ban players who ARE doing attended, normal play BUT using a mouse or OS handicap accessability control to make mouse input controls easier by automating the holding down of mouse left or right click

@ZOS_GinaBruno - can you confirm, should you read this, that ZOS does or does not go after individuals who are not performing any unattended play but DO make use of assistive devices or software implemented into operating systems per section 508 amendment to the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 and ADA disability guidelines.

While these regulations for Federal agencies do not apply as federal law over private agencies, all major computer OS manufacturers comply with them. Is ZOS deeming use of ADA devices or other assistive software built into operating systems to be a separate violation of TOS? (as the concession here is no unattended play is at issue - just the mere use of assistive controls)

Kharnamatic · May 2017

What if whenever I fall asleep I make sure to have my laptop (running ESO) by my bed and my finger resting on the heavy attack mouse button? That way I can gain levels overnight. Is that bannable? It's still me operating the game.

Galwylin · May 2017

The only time I notice it is when there isn't anything there its just happens to be a spawn point they keep firing at. I'm sure there's a logical reason why that is just as I'm sure they are violating TOS. However, I'm not doing ZOS job. Its easy for them to figure it out and since it happens so often then I can only conclude they don't care regardless what their rules say.

Brictoria · May 2017

I still think these accounts, where found, shouldn't be banned. It'd be much more enjoyable to have ALL toons on the account having their skill points reset and capped at a single skill point per toon, and no CP available to be allocated, regardless of CP "level" of toons.

Then they can "play"\rubber band as much as they like on the account.

On a side note, rubber-banding would be so much easier to be flagged if people would kite mobs onto the AFK toons...Once dead, there is no legitimate reason for a "player" to be continuing with the heavy attacks instead of re-spawning, which should make ZoS's job of detecting these "players" much easier.

Ojustaboo · May 2017

I agree with most of what's been said, and none of it applies to me anyway.

However, I often play with just my main guilds chat window and that allows group and that guild only. You could try to talk to me all day and I wouldn't acknowledge it as I wouldn't see it. So I don't see that as an indication of someone being a bot or afk play. I'm sure I'm not the only player that does this?

snakester320 · May 2017

Depends if they actually do anything like the cp 184 character in cold harbour at the start of the game farming daedric hearts on n/a PS4 for weeks and weeks ...

pattyLtd · May 2017

Who cares? Seriously, how does it effect anyone?

I really doubt ZoS actively bans people for this it might be caught by a anti-bot system that automaticly flags the account or something. I really don't think ZoS gives a damn how you level up and they shouldn't in my opinion they have bigger issues to focus on.

IronCrystal · May 2017

Kharnamatic wrote: »

What if whenever I fall asleep I make sure to have my laptop (running ESO) by my bed and my finger resting on the heavy attack mouse button? That way I can gain levels overnight. Is that bannable? It's still me operating the game.

Yes this is bannable. It doesn't matter what you are doing on "the other side of the screen." They are gonna look at your in-game actions and decide for themselves.

F7sus4 · May 2017

In 99% of the such dilemmas it's "If I just kiss her on a cheek is this cheating or not yet?" case.

Ep1kMalware · May 2017

If you hold ur finger down on it, that's legit. If you use tape, that's cheating. Makes no sense but rules is rules since you must ask.

Ep1kMalware · May 2017

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

WhitePawPrints wrote: »

If you move after a dolmen, then you're obviously not rubberbanding and therefore should not be subjected to the restrictions of automated play that is on the TOS.

If the player is using automation to play the game, it does not matter if they are there or not.

Jacozilla wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Jacozilla wrote: »

To be fair, I don't see ZOS going after someone because they automate the issue of a mouse down event with some means to continue it indefinitely until a mouse up event is passed.

They are against unattended play - meaning regardless how you issue the commands, if you are the one actively initiating and stopping them, that is regular play. If you are not, then that is unattended play and if caught - more likely to be enforced as TOS violation.

If automated mouse down events were the sole trigger, every handicap, arthritis, repetitive stress, etc player using built in OS supported alternative input devices or controls would be banned. Which they are not.

for example, right out of the box, Windows supports changing your mouse at any time so that a mouse left or right click can be pressed just once and it is held down automatically for you, until you press it again to give the mouse up signal. This is for people who have any sort of accessability issue that makes it easier to use the mouse this way vs continuously hold mouse button down mode.

So taping the mouse down is not needed, just enable what every operating system I know of provides as matter of course. The way the TOS is written, it allows ZOS to basically ban any player for any reason, at any time. But I don't see them going after some who is actively there, attending their play, but using alternate accessability controls.

*which they can't detect anyways because all that can be tracked is the mouse down and up events, not how those events were passed to the server.

Yeah, they can, and do, go after players for just holding down the mouse button, or holding the trigger. No matter how they are doing it. Even if they are sitting right there watching a moving while they are playing. You might not see it, but we certainly hear about it, from time to time, in the forum.

Don't do it.

You seem to be taking my quote out of context.

The very first sentence is the key ---> "They are against unattended play - ...."

So I agree, any form of unattended play, however you issue the controls, is not only against TOS but just common sense to ban. Fair enough.

My sole point was the distinction between issuing automated commands while you actively play and are attending to the game session, vs. unattended play which includes the situations you described.

Actually, your very first sentence is "To be fair, I don't see ZOS going after someone because they automate the issue of a mouse down event with some means to continue it indefinitely until a mouse up event is passed."

That is not good advice to be giving.

No, they do not like unattended play, but that is not the real issue. The reason that unattended play is a bad thing is because to actually play the game while away, the player has to use some form of method that automates the playing of the game. It is actually this that is the violation. Playing unattended is a side effect that makes it easier to detect.

"Users are forbidden from using any unapproved third party applications, programs, scripts or any other game modifying mechanic used to change the game play experience on a ZeniMax Game, Service, forum, or other games or services provided by ZeniMax, including the distribution of said programs via ZeniMax services, sites, forums, communities, etc. This would include but is not limited to using or distributing speed hacks, aim bots, mouse controllers, spam bots, automated game play devices, etc. Third party applications are defined as any program, application or script written by an individual, company, corporation, or private party not employed by or contracted to perform services by ZeniMax."

"Automating your character in any way, including placing tape or a rubber-band on a console controller, is considered a violation of our Terms of Service, and action may be taken on your account. You must be actively controlling your character."

I guess that equates to a hell of a lot of violations, as that's how numerous people got their VMoL skins on console. Lol. People would work their way up as far as they could, then proceed with "rubber-banding" the instance. That way a group's progress in the trial could be kept, and they'd not have to start over again from the beginning. I personally don't care either way, as it's none of my business. Plus, it's not harming me in the slightest. Therefore I'd not even bother reporting it if I had heard of and or seen it. There's bigger fish to fry such as people account sharing for content clears, and gold sellers.

I remember those old progression groups, took people 9 days at first, then turned into a weekend thing. It takes along time to learn mechs, ppl get tired and need breaks. So what? Not a big deal. What about when I accidentally leave my mic plugged in and never log out?

Merlin13KAGL · May 2017

First, the easy fix at dolmens: Have a large scale knockback event occur when the anchor drops. It moves, reorients, and disrupts every player in a large radius. Or have an unavoidable guard regularly wander through the boss's spawn point when the dolmen isn't live - one that 'prevent attacking the innocents' doesn't affect. Place a reflect projectiles barrier around the dolmen when it's not live... Any of these solve the problem.

Second, some of you are grasping for straws saying the automation can't be distinguished from a player doing the same.

Players respond to events - automation generally doesn't. I can think of no less than half a dozen fairly easy ways to see if the inputs are automated. (For instance, after any one of the above leads to the characters death, continued input monitoring would pretty well paint the picture, unless someone can give a valid reason for heavy attacking while dead?)

To counter the other asinine argument: If it is an actual player playing in the same way that would be interpreted by the above, then the result should be the same. It's not ZoS's job to prove you aren't a real person - it's your job to prove you are.

The overall moral of the story:

Don't do it - it's a violation
Don't do it - it's incredibly lazy.

johnnified wrote: »

However it isn't against the rules on a PC if you have your laptop on your lap watching TV and holding down the left mouse button and casually looking at the screen.

It isn't "Unattended" play

You're not actively playing the game. It's unattended play. See above, especially #2.

XDragonDoomX · May 2017

As a point of principle, whenever I find a group in a static position on a dolmen with repetitive actions whether the dolmen is active or not & not looting the end chest - I make a point of reporting each one & then ZoS can determine how its handled after that.

Jayman1000 · May 2017

You could just have your laptop doing that right next you while you watch tv-shows for 8 hours on your desktop computer. For example 13 episodes of Stargate, not even a full season. Every few minutes you'll just look at the laptop to see if anyone sent you a pm and reply or move around if they did to prove you are still "attending" the game. No one will ever be able to distinguish between you legitimately using your finger or if you illegitimately put a weight on the mouse button (like the edge of the bottom of your coffee cup for example).

Rickter · May 2017

a lot of first time MOL clears were achieved this way - i dont see any of them banned. lul. ZOS wont catch you - they cant.

Elsonso · May 2017

Jacozilla wrote: »

Not sure if you understand what the technical description of mouse down event really means, but assuming you do, what you are saying is anyone that does the following will and should be banned:

1- use a handicapped access device for people with arthristis, repetitive stress in wrists, etc that makes holding down the mouse button easier (e.g. common ways being mouse that accepts 1 click to press down, another click to indicate up)

2- any person who enables the built in, OS function like in Windows to turn on mouse accessability controls to do same thing as #1

Sorry - but not only are you wrong, but there is no way ZOS would ban players who ARE doing attended, normal play BUT using a mouse or OS handicap accessability control to make mouse input controls easier by automating the holding down of mouse left or right click

My thinking is that you are looking for an out to allow people to go ahead and use that method of automation. People have asked this question before, and ZOS has not answered it.

My thought is that ZOS will ban or suspend anyone who is using this, for whatever reason, if they find out. You can pull up laws and regulations, but those laws and regulations only apply to the people who need the assistance, not everyone who knows how to use the assistance. If ZOS wants to comply with the ADA, they only have to do it for those people who can demonstrate that they need it. This can happen after the ban or suspension, when the player appeals and attempts to explain. It can be handled on a case by case basis.

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

First, the easy fix at dolmens: Have a large scale knockback event occur when the anchor drops. It moves, reorients, and disrupts every player in a large radius. Or have an unavoidable guard regularly wander through the boss's spawn point when the dolmen isn't live - one that 'prevent attacking the innocents' doesn't affect. Place a reflect projectiles barrier around the dolmen when it's not live... Any of these solve the problem.

There are a number of game play things that they could do at dolmens to defeat the people botting (and I use that term to include all people cheating by using automation, whether they are sitting at the keyboard or not)

I do like the knockback event that goes 30-40m out from the dolmen when the anchor drops. This will, at least, get the people who are playing unattended. There are a few players that have learned. They are there, but not attentive. They set their character to fire at the spot, then go do something else. They are close enough to notice that the anchor is gone, go grab the chest, then return to their spot and start up the automation. (Edit: Yes, I would report these people)

A lot of these people using automation are probably just trying to get the General Achievement. They can make automation less beneficial by not having the dolmen boss drop at the same spot every time. Right now, 30 players all cluster around the drop spot and start firing wildly. They had to change the dolmens so that the boss did not die on the way down. Making the boss drop in a random place would also help break up the "pre-drop AoE" crowd. One problem with a random drop location is that it would be harder to get the achievement because those camped at the correct random spot would be the only ones who would probably get a piece of the general.

Ideally, the players should just stop using automation to accomplish this. I think that would start to happen if ZOS spent some time and really policed the dolmens, on all platforms, to get the message across. Even if they just teleported the suspected players to a safe distance from the dolmen, with a generic "if you are using automation, stop" warning, that would help. Right now, I have only heard of them doing this on PS4, and not nearly enough. Hire a few college students as interns for the summer. Those people work for cots and free ramen soup.