Um Explain Shield Stacking

grim_tactics · April 2017

So, everyone is talking about shield stack and such on Sorcs and it sounds like the general consensus is to nerf it.

Both sides make good arguments - but as a Sorc I had to test it out because I wanted to see if I could free up space on my bar.

Now, I may be doing this wrong but when tested out against my friends in PvP - stacking shields did nothing of any worthiness IMO.

Both times - if I cast Harness Magic and Hardened Ward - took the same amount of blows to drop. When using only Hardened Ward - same result.

The damage mitigation seems the same and I saw no reason to use more than 1 shield on my bar.

The amount of damage I should've been able to absorb with both shields would've been around 35k if they do indeed stack - but when hit with wrecking blow or just heavy attacks - it took the same amount of strikes to drop the dual shield or single shield.

Am I missing something here?

dpencil1 · April 2017

They both only last 6 seconds, so that's only 5 seconds they can actually be stacked (9 if you use Empowered Ward). The amount of shielding does add up, but is half the PvE value. So a 30k shield stack in PvE is only 15k in PvP.

grim_tactics · April 2017

Ok - so really it isn't that big a deal.

Cause if I'm getting tanked by 7 ppl shield stacking isn't going to matter and 1vXing to win doing so will burn so much resources that you'll run out of magic so fast.

Think I'll run one shield for now and see how it goes.

Seems the whole shield stacking argument is overrated.

Beardimus · April 2017

It's not that big a deal @grim_tactics people have been moaning about Sorc wards forever.

U13 changed nothing to do with wards yet the cries on here start up. There's alot of Sorc hate.

Any skilled players killed Sorcs in 2016 same as 2017. But it's a easy bandwagon to jump on as new PvP players might think Wards are god mode, or better players who normally kill you in 1 sec need to think and take 2 second and try don't like it.

Passive defence sucks, its a resource burner and means you aren't attacking (less damage output) and it's pretty easy to CC a Sorc, wards down in 6 secs tops and slay them.

It's basically a storm in a teacup. Wards used to be 20 seconds but in PvP they lasted as long as they do now, a few attacks is all.

grim_tactics · April 2017

Yeah because it I even stack - that's , what - almost 6-7k in Mag for a shield that gets burned through or disappears almost as quick as the animation lasts.

I never really complain about builds but when it comes to dueling NBs that just spam fear - cc - and incap, that's just a broken 1v1 mechanic.

I know this game isn't meant for 1v1 to be balanced and I'm ok with that but after testing Sorc shields. All these people crying have never used a Sorc.

Juhasow · April 2017

grim_tactics wrote: »

So, everyone is talking about shield stack and such on Sorcs and it sounds like the general consensus is to nerf it.

Both sides make good arguments - but as a Sorc I had to test it out because I wanted to see if I could free up space on my bar.

Now, I may be doing this wrong but when tested out against my friends in PvP - stacking shields did nothing of any worthiness IMO.

Both times - if I cast Harness Magic and Hardened Ward - took the same amount of blows to drop. When using only Hardened Ward - same result.

The damage mitigation seems the same and I saw no reason to use more than 1 shield on my bar.

The amount of damage I should've been able to absorb with both shields would've been around 35k if they do indeed stack - but when hit with wrecking blow or just heavy attacks - it took the same amount of strikes to drop the dual shield or single shield.

Am I missing something here?

It starts to be a deal when multiple enemies attacking You at the same time. Also heavy attack and wrecking blows are slow attacks so used by 1 enemie take too much time to start dmg 2nd shields because You have 6 seconds of shields. When You meet enemie who really have burst and would normally burn through Your 1 shields then shieldstacking becomes game changer because You have time to play offensivly against him while still beeing protected enough by those 2 shields. Not even mentioning how pirate skeleton increase effectivness of shieldstacking. You can basicly hold 5 players on You and just shieldstack to survive.

grim_tactics · April 2017

But that's what I'm saying.

I was using the above attacks as an example as I had 2 of my friends just attack me with the same attacks just to see if there was a difference and there wasn't one.

The only reason I can see back baring another shield is so you can sustain through your rotations.

The duration between casting one shield then casting another is already close to 1 second which leaves 5 more but the overall stack will not sustain the accumulated total from what I've seen.

35k negation just doesn't seem to be what is happening when stacked.

And to keep constantly casting two shields just to try and avoid being killed from 5 people is a waste of resources. Why continue to burn 6-7k mag just to die any way?

If I main bar one shield it seems to do exactly the same job that trying to stack two was doing without any notice of a better or worse sustain.

I was mainly curious because I wanted the extra slot if it was a negligible drop, but I don't see any reason to waste resources on such a short duration that already doesn't seem to return any advantage in my favor with 1 shield or 2.

I would rather focus my DPS on the enemy while resorting to Hardened Ward to sustain instead of trying to stack while not doing damage for a shield that doesn't add any benefits other than maybe lasting 1 more second over the first.

Also, spamming 1 shield to cover the extra incoming damage does the same job as casting two separate ones. If youre taking that much DPS where you need that much sustain during those short seconds- you're going to lose out anyway.

For a 35k shield to be needed to negate equal damage over that time then your enemies are doing at minimum close to 6k per second as a whole. That's extremely low DPS so stacking will not fix nor allow a Sorc to sustain any 1vX situation where they are being hit by enemies averaging at least 7k DPS each.

RajinPVP · April 2017

Most people dont seems to know that .. mitigation from cp like hardy and elemental defender applies on shield.. and if you see mag sorcs in pvp running around in cyrodiil with goblin disguise or some kind of disguise you can loot on pve .. that means they are using pirate skeleton undaunted set which gives them 30% damage mits and the way how meta build for mag sorcs rightnow.. they also use resto ult. They use disguise not to be cool .. its because pirate skeleton is glitchy that if you transform there is some kind of delay that stop you for using skill and swapping and using disguise eliminates this problem.

grim_tactics · April 2017

b4nn3d7337 wrote: »

Most people dont seems to know that .. mitigation from cp like hardy and elemental defender applies on shield.. and if you see mag sorcs in pvp running around in cyrodiil with goblin disguise or some kind of disguise you can loot on pve .. that means they are using pirate skeleton undaunted set which gives them 30% damage mits and the way how meta build for mag sorcs rightnow.. they also use resto ult. They use disguise not to be cool .. its because pirate skeleton is glitchy that if you transform there is some kind of delay that stop you for using skill and swapping and using disguise eliminates this problem.

Even with the costume or disguise it glitches.

I quit using Pirate Skeleton because I would be locked on a bar and couldn't switch. I've died more because of that set so I dropped it.

It's pretty OP but ridiculously buggy on console.

And my tests were with 75 points in bastion.

WalksonGraves · April 2017

grim_tactics wrote: »

b4nn3d7337 wrote: »

Most people dont seems to know that .. mitigation from cp like hardy and elemental defender applies on shield.. and if you see mag sorcs in pvp running around in cyrodiil with goblin disguise or some kind of disguise you can loot on pve .. that means they are using pirate skeleton undaunted set which gives them 30% damage mits and the way how meta build for mag sorcs rightnow.. they also use resto ult. They use disguise not to be cool .. its because pirate skeleton is glitchy that if you transform there is some kind of delay that stop you for using skill and swapping and using disguise eliminates this problem.

Even with the costume or disguise it glitches.

I quit using Pirate Skeleton because I would be locked on a bar and couldn't switch. I've died more because of that set so I dropped it.

It's pretty OP but ridiculously buggy on console.

And my tests were with 75 points in bastion.

Weird, that's my main tanking set and I've never had any issues of any kind on console.

Fyi bastion has nothing to do with damage resistance.

grim_tactics · April 2017

WalksonGraves wrote: »

grim_tactics wrote: »

b4nn3d7337 wrote: »

Most people dont seems to know that .. mitigation from cp like hardy and elemental defender applies on shield.. and if you see mag sorcs in pvp running around in cyrodiil with goblin disguise or some kind of disguise you can loot on pve .. that means they are using pirate skeleton undaunted set which gives them 30% damage mits and the way how meta build for mag sorcs rightnow.. they also use resto ult. They use disguise not to be cool .. its because pirate skeleton is glitchy that if you transform there is some kind of delay that stop you for using skill and swapping and using disguise eliminates this problem.

Even with the costume or disguise it glitches.

I quit using Pirate Skeleton because I would be locked on a bar and couldn't switch. I've died more because of that set so I dropped it.

It's pretty OP but ridiculously buggy on console.

And my tests were with 75 points in bastion.

Weird, that's my main tanking set and I've never had any issues of any kind on console.

Fyi bastion has nothing to do with damage resistance.

I know, Bastion increases damage absorbing effects.

I was responding in regards to an earlier post about shields and stacking test.

Yeah, every time Pirate Skeleton procs - even with a costume - my guy freezes and so do my abilities to bar swap. I've died so many times trying to switch bars and it won't let me until I've transformed and at times even after that.

WalksonGraves · April 2017

grim_tactics wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

grim_tactics wrote: »

b4nn3d7337 wrote: »

Most people dont seems to know that .. mitigation from cp like hardy and elemental defender applies on shield.. and if you see mag sorcs in pvp running around in cyrodiil with goblin disguise or some kind of disguise you can loot on pve .. that means they are using pirate skeleton undaunted set which gives them 30% damage mits and the way how meta build for mag sorcs rightnow.. they also use resto ult. They use disguise not to be cool .. its because pirate skeleton is glitchy that if you transform there is some kind of delay that stop you for using skill and swapping and using disguise eliminates this problem.

Even with the costume or disguise it glitches.

I quit using Pirate Skeleton because I would be locked on a bar and couldn't switch. I've died more because of that set so I dropped it.

It's pretty OP but ridiculously buggy on console.

And my tests were with 75 points in bastion.

Weird, that's my main tanking set and I've never had any issues of any kind on console.

Fyi bastion has nothing to do with damage resistance.

I know, Bastion increases damage absorbing effects.

I was responding in regards to an earlier post about shields and stacking test.

Yeah, every time Pirate Skeleton procs - even with a costume - my guy freezes and so do my abilities to bar swap. I've died so many times trying to switch bars and it won't let me until I've transformed and at times even after that.

Strange I've never had that happen. The transformation is always instant and has no effect on my ability to control the character.

Jsmalls · April 2017

It's completely dependent upon how much damage you are taking per second. That's why shields are Overpowered in 1v1 scenarios and lack in 1vX scenarios. If you're taking more than ~12k unmitigatable damage per second (which is like 2 players laying steady damage on you) then you physically can't shieldstack. Because one shield is gone by the time you put the other one up.

aLi3nZ · April 2017

Seems you are doing it wrong.

Hardened ward on front bar
Harness magika and healing ward on back bar

If I get in trouble, I stack them all at once then cc the Enemy while they try tap away at my huge shields that is the result of having 50k magika. It's pretty easy to pop healing ward when low then put hardened ward over the top of that which is what a lot of people complain about. TBH I don't think it's any more cheap then nb spamming cloak and vigor, dk spamming wings, vigor, dragon blood or whatever they use or Templar spamming cleanse and bol. + magika nb has harness magika and healing ward to stack along with massive dot heals from swallow soul.

grim_tactics · April 2017

aLi3nZ wrote: »

Seems you are doing it wrong.

Hardened ward on front bar
Harness magika and healing ward on back bar

If I get in trouble, I stack them all at once then cc the Enemy while they try tap away at my huge shields that is the result of having 50k magika. It's pretty easy to pop healing ward when low then put hardened ward over the top of that which is what a lot of people complain about. TBH I don't think it's any more cheap then nb spamming cloak and vigor, dk spamming wings, vigor, dragon blood or whatever they use or Templar spamming cleanse and bol. + magika nb has harness magika and healing ward to stack along with massive dot heals from swallow soul.

With all those shields though you are sacrificing even more DPS only for sustain situations where you just want to get away because 6 seconds is far too short of a time.

I used that system for quite some time because the shields will stack over Healing Ward resulting in you being healed IF they don't burn through the other shield(s). That also spends a lot of resources.

Like I said - on a timer - only using the one shield or stacking the two - they negated the same amount. It just seems a waste of bar space when I'm comepletely fine with knowing I'm going to die against zergs.

Here is my set up just for the sake of my point (btw - I appreciate all of the responses and I'm in no way discrediting anyone else's play style- just wanted some constructive conversation. )

Front Bar:
Radiant Mage Light - Crushing Shock - Mages Fury - C-Frags - Hardened Ward

Back bar:

Streak - Power surge - Encase or Destructive Reach - Haunting Curse - Elemental drain.

So rotation for me is - when I see the enemies - back bar pop surge, cc them, cast curse then front bar shield - DPS DPS DPS - back bar Curse and cc - switch DPS and repeat.

I find it easy to sustain and the snares control movement and streak allows me to either kite or gap close.

If it's getting hairy then I can stay on front bar and still sustain with Ward and hitting with my single target skills while Curse eventually bursts again.

I just dont find the battles any more difficult with running only 1 shield because the stacking seems to not be such a big difference because spamming them together doesn't work any better than spamming Hardened as it runs out.

I've never been a fan of being a Sorc using a resto either because the only things I can back bar are shields and curse and a snare - that's it. No DPS on back bar doesn't suit my playstyle.

Waffennacht · April 2017

Shield stacking is only worth it imo if a single ward is large enough to survive more than one attack. If the ward is smaller, you'll end up only having one up at a time anyway.

So stacking becomes worth it when a ward is roughly 8k or higher imo

DHale · April 2017

Its a made up thing that would give you 2 (annulment morph over hardened ward) shields for four seconds that will prevent you from getting one shotted... only to get a dizzy swing then they back up crit rush only to dizzy swing then execute you by the you get up. That's is only if they put 0 points into shatter blows. It very fun... if you are using a two hander but not so much for the sorc.

grim_tactics · April 2017

DHale wrote: »

Its a made up thing that would give you 2 (annulment morph over hardened ward) shields for four seconds that will prevent you from getting one shotted... only to get a dizzy swing then they back up crit rush only to dizzy swing then execute you by the you get up. That's is only if they put 0 points into shatter blows. It very fun... if you are using a two hander but not so much for the sorc.

That's what I'm saying.

The only reason I can see using more than one shield would be to front bar and back bar just to help if you aren't comfortable with your rotations.

Just seems every popular build online always has 2-3 shields for Sorc builds in PvP but I don't find it useful or relevant in regards to sustain and DPS balance.

I'd rather cast when needed and press damage on people.

I'm going to die against zergs and really good players regardless of shield stacking or not cause the pure DPS output negates stacking.

s7732425ub17_ESO · April 2017

Shield stacking is only a problem in duels and very small scale battles. A shield stacking character essentially gets 7-10k free HP per second if they just spam shields repeatedly. So if your opponent cannot outdamage that, they cannot win.

WalksonGraves · April 2017

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

Shield stacking is only a problem in duels and very small scale battles. A shield stacking character essentially gets 7-10k free HP per second if they just spam shields repeatedly. So if your opponent cannot outdamage that, they cannot win.

And this helps you win how?

KCLucky · April 2017

WalksonGraves wrote: »

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

Shield stacking is only a problem in duels and very small scale battles. A shield stacking character essentially gets 7-10k free HP per second if they just spam shields repeatedly. So if your opponent cannot outdamage that, they cannot win.

And this helps you win how?

It has to come from the same players that will try to beat on a tank instead of the softer targets around them. They try to damage a Sorc while it's blocking/streaking/stacking and the whole time they get killed by other players and cry about the Sorc being OP. If a Sorc can shield stack and kill you then your damage is low or you need more PvP practice. All the time casting is time spent not playing offensively. If you can't outdamage the shield, use CC to get around it.

TheStankTank · April 2017

When I get destroyed in PvP, I instantly feel jealous of the other class (understandably so, my main is a Templar). I get jealous of Sorcs that are shielded well from my attacks, or from streaking away. I wish I could pull such a perfectly timed gank, like that NB that came out of nowhere and had me down in under 2 seconds. Look at that DK holding the top of that tower by himself, then leaping and knocking half of them off, while the rest of his team respawns and rides in to join the fight.

And I'm sure some players roll their eyes every time I run up and heal the damage they just inflicted and then Jesus Beam them into Oblivion.

A lot of time and resources go into a build, establishing CP placement, etc. And there is definitely skill involved in playing the build as well. I think many of us get upset seeing a popular build over and over.

So respect to those Cyrodiil lovers who murdered me into thinking of boosting my strengths instead of envying theirs.

WhiteMage · April 2017

Go find a really good sorcerer and try to duel him. After he beats you, ask him to give you a 5 second head start before attacking. You should be able to get at least a glimpse of the power of shieldstacking from that. A sorc spamming shields can proc frags and infernal guardian for high damage while being on the defensive.

Also, I'm no expert at sorcs, but I'm pretty sure you won't be 1vXing with only 1 defensive skill across both bars.

grim_tactics · April 2017

WhiteMage wrote: »

Go find a really good sorcerer and try to duel him. After he beats you, ask him to give you a 5 second head start before attacking. You should be able to get at least a glimpse of the power of shieldstacking from that. A sorc spamming shields can proc frags and infernal guardian for high damage while being on the defensive.

Also, I'm no expert at sorcs, but I'm pretty sure you won't be 1vXing with only 1 defensive skill across both bars.

I have - several times - and I main a Sorc.

Go test shield stacking for yourself.

That's why I feel stacking is a waste of resources.

Infernal Guardian is so easy to dodge most good Sorcs don't really use it anymore. I mean - see that huge AoE? Just move away.

Also, I don't know any good Sorc that mainbars two shields with CFrags or back bars Cfrags for that matter with two shields. (I am sure some people do but you really want a damage bar and a sustain DoT bar)

The easiest way to proc frags is the main shield on front bar and the spammable single target skill you use while weaving.

Even back barring two shields and none on the main leaves you open to getting burned down while trying to swap bars to shield.

Like I said, I my testing, stacking shields lends no other advantage as just recasting your main shield if you have to.

I mean, unless you have nothing else to back bar , just put a different shield to cast every time you swap bars then cast Hardened when you switch - but if your rotations and canceling is good you are not on the back bar much at all.

I just don't see the need in wasting 7k or so in resources stacking something that showed no increase in survivability let alone added damage mitigation.

WhiteMage · April 2017

I don't know the best way to make use of shield stacking on a sorc because I don't sorc (so I certainly don't 1vX as a sorc), but in a duel I was able to stand still in a channeled focus and do nothing but alternate shields (harness and healing ward) to survive indefinitely against a very bursty magblade. His biggest burst combo could penetrate both and drop me to 40% with the help of a stun, but once the shields were back up a single BoL healed my magplar up, and so the cycle continued till we just decided to call it. Stacking shields, at least against magicka opponents in a CP environment, can provide you with a perfect defense that doesn't run out of magicka (Live). I have not been able to weaponize this, but its strength and potential is pretty clear.

(No bastion points, 34k magicka. Imagine what a sorc could do.)

grim_tactics · April 2017

WhiteMage wrote: »

I don't know the best way to make use of shield stacking on a sorc because I don't sorc (so I certainly don't 1vX as a sorc), but in a duel I was able to stand still in a channeled focus and do nothing but alternate shields (harness and healing ward) to survive indefinitely against a very bursty magblade. His biggest burst combo could penetrate both and drop me to 40% with the help of a stun, but once the shields were back up a single BoL healed my magplar up, and so the cycle continued till we just decided to call it. Stacking shields, at least against magicka opponents in a CP environment, can provide you with a perfect defense that doesn't run out of magicka (Live). I have not been able to weaponize this, but its strength and potential is pretty clear.

(No bastion points, 34k magicka. Imagine what a sorc could do.)

I respect your opinion and not trying to be some kind of know it all, but the alternating you are talking about can be achieved by casting the same 1 also.

Some see the damage the Soul ulti can do (I've gotten mine up to almost 70k) but DKs and Sorcs can survive it because you either interrupt it or just heal through it. It's easy to survive channel attacks.

With CP - my one shield still does exactly the same as if I cast two at the same time in real combat.

I'm just telling you - on paper and not considering CP - my stacked shields should negate at least 34k in damage. 1 should withstand only 17k.

Against two people they absorbed the same amount of damage as if I had only cast the 1. Watch the bar - it falls just as fast whether it's 1 shield or two.

Anyone telling you they beat you because of shield stacking isn't telling the whole truth. He may have beaten you because he was spamming a shield but stacking doesn't make a difference.

Go try it out and see - I'm telling you it's not what everyone assumes it is just because of what they see on paper. There is no difference to make me waste a spot where more damage can go.

WhiteMage · April 2017

I think we just have a slight difference in experience with that one aspect of shield stacking. You say 1 attack = 1 shield for you. In that case, stacking shields would be pointless. For me, though, 1 attack is slightly less than 1 shield. When I'm hit by an attack that you wouldn't qualify as burst, I often end up with about 1k, give or take 500, of the shield left. That difference right there makes a shield stack more powerful, because I can now add that extra bit onto the top of a different shield, which will then have a little bit more leftover health on it, which can then be put back on top on the first shield, so on and so forth, till I have a sturdy defense enough to be able to attack my opponent who is not focused on defense, but unlike him, I don't have to be. If he suddenly goes on the defense, then I just got "tempo" which is a huge advantage.

Also, when you use different types of shields, you get multiple beneficial effects. Harness will restore magicka and ward will heal me in addition to "shielding" the harness. The implications of this will be seen next patch when mDKs use harness to keep up major mending longer. The ones who figure it out sooner will probably begin to shine among their peers.

So ya, if you really lose your shield to one typical attack, shield stacking is pointless, but if any of it gets leftover after an attack, that can eventually be turned into an offensive advantage. It will be interesting to see next patch how resource management affects all of this.

Irylia · April 2017

b4nn3d7337 wrote: »

Most people dont seems to know that .. mitigation from cp like hardy and elemental defender applies on shield.. and if you see mag sorcs in pvp running around in cyrodiil with goblin disguise or some kind of disguise you can loot on pve .. that means they are using pirate skeleton undaunted set which gives them 30% damage mits and the way how meta build for mag sorcs rightnow.. they also use resto ult. They use disguise not to be cool .. its because pirate skeleton is glitchy that if you transform there is some kind of delay that stop you for using skill and swapping and using disguise eliminates this problem.

I've always worn it to be cool.
I genuinely prefer the goblin to my original character frame. The shorter stature and goblin in general makes my skill animations smoother. Or it seems that way. Was using goblin long before all these reasons to use it on sorc. Mount bug. Dark deal bug. Pirate visual.
And I don't even use pirate 90% of the time.