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Blanket Nerfs / Ruining Build Diversity / Missing Bugfixes

MADshadowman_
MADshadowman_
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Hey guys,

as we all know the recent patch notes for Morrowind made a majority of the playerbase very unhappy.

Me too, but not for the obvious reasons. There is more to it that bothers me than just sustain nerfs. There is an ongoing theme with the patches we've seen in the past year. Let me try to elaborate on this and tell you about the points that really disappoint me more and more with every patch.

Blanket Nerfs

ZOS tends to overdo some things. Too much damage, too much tankiness, too much sustain. Whatever it is, with every patch we get something that is just borderline broken. Then they ignore complaints about it for a couple months before they actually address it on the forums or on ESO Live. Then after 6 months they finally come up with a solution and push it to the live server. Not only is it inacceptable to let paying customers wait for such a long time, but their way of "fixing" the issue always misses the target.

Instead of figuring out where the actual problem is, they just nerf everything across the board. Which obviously doesn't solve the problem.

Here are a couple examples:

Sustain nerfs: everyone gets hit by these changes, even the players that didn't even have much sustain to begin with. I - for example - have 755 magicka regen on my dk. That's only a tiny bit above the absolute minimum. I'm in light armor, so i get some cost reduction and i have some CP in cost reduction too. That's all i get for passive sustain. I have to actively work for the rest of my sustain, which involves heavy attacks, pots and battle roar.

Light armor has always been a risk/reward option for builds. You are very squishy, because you barely get any resistances through your gear (i don't even run impen), but you were rewarded with better sustain, due to the regen and cost reduction passives. Next patch even light armor users will have sustain issues, which means light armor is now a risk/risk option. Where is my reward for being squishy?

Let's look at the other end of the spectrum. There are sorcs and nbs with 3k+ regen. Why is it even possible to have so much regen while still being able to deal massive amounts of damage? So next patch these people will still be at 2.5k regen. Why are we not targeting mechanics that allow you to have so much regen first, before we ruin sustain for everyone?

You don't solve a balancing issue by nerfing everyone. This just leads to the same issue, just on a different level.

Blocking: Your blocking changes are also not targeting the actual issue. You basically made blocking twice as expensive, which seems nice at the first glance, but AGAIN you nerfed it for EVERYONE. The real victims of these blanket nerfs aren't the ones that are causing the problem, but everyone else. There are PVP tanks, that can face tank 10 people for 5 minutes straight. Next patch they can still do it for like 2-3 minutes. That doesn't fix the issue, ZOS! The problem is the damage reduction when blocking with sword and board. that needs to be looked at + maaaaaybe the cost of it. Cause that makes sword and board block tanks weaker without punishing everyone for blocking. Magicka builds without sword and board or an ice staff can't afford to block anymore, because they will run out of stamina within 3 seconds if this change goes live.

Reduce the damage reduction of sword and board, cause then you could take out tanks with a well timed combo from 2 players, instead of having 10 people beat on them for 20 minutes.

Proc Set Meta

We've had this before and it will come back. With the changes to sustain it is kinda obvious that a build with 3 proc sets is your best option for sustain and damage because you GET YOUR DAMAGE FOR FREE with light and heavy attacks. Don't see the problem yet? Alright, let's continue.
This passive ability now reduces the enemy’s Health, Magicka, and Stamina Recovery for 3 seconds when you damage them with a Light or Heavy Attack, instead of reducing the cost of your Magicka abilities.

So, not only do you get your damage for free, you can also debuff your targets sustain without spending any of your resources. Now put a poison of your choice on top of that... you see where this is going...

Dear ZOS, why do we promote skill-less gameplay? Do you really want us all to run the same builds? Is this your vision of this game? Boy, i hope not.

Missing Sorc Changes

This is something that annoyed a lot of people. Sorcs are inarguably the strongest magicka class in the game right now, and they are the only class that has been consistently on a very high level since 1.5 or 1.6. High ranged damage, mobility, sustain and tankiness is maybe a bit much and needs some adjustments. Now, we still have a little over a month left and i'm sure there will be some changes, but no one knows what it's gonna be and if it actually tackles the issues with this class.

There was this mini change to dark deal with the 0.2 second cooldown, which is - in case you don't know - 1/5 of a second. So just look at your watch and realize how short 1 second is and now imagine this "cooldown" could have happened 5 times in that 1 second. So yeah, that is absolutely nothing.

Sorcs will hate me for this, but since they already do, i'm just gonna say it:

Dark Deal needs to get its movement speed reduction back. it's ridiculous that you can use this ability at full speed. Because this makes it super hard to interrupt the channel. You can't even reach a fully speed buffed stam sorc with your bash, because he will always be faster than you. A speed reduction would take care of that. Easy.

Sneak Speed Stacking

I get that you don't want players to be super super speedy, which can be achieved by stacking vamp and shadow dancer and night's silence and nbs can even stack concealed weapon on top of that. i agree, that is a little much, BUT removing the option to stack sneak speed all together will hurt solo gameplay a lot.

Here is a little story for you:

My good friend @JackDaniell made a Stamplar build called "ghost" way back in the day. This build made use of the fact that you could stack a speed buff on top of your mist form movement speed. That allowed him to effectively kite groups of players that were chasing him. Then, when the major and minor buffs were introduced, this wasn't possible anymore. So we figured out that you could use shadow dancer or night's silence to achieve the same effect and bring the "ghost" build back. If you remove this option, this build will be useless again. Which is a sad thing for many people in this community.

Here is the reason why i want to keep this mechanic: As a solo player, you are at a great disadvantage at all times. Zergs have more healing, more damage, more buffs, more debuffs, more everything. The only thing we solo players had to effectively get away from these groups was the clever use of movement and positioning. If you take this out of the game, you force players like me or @JackDaniell to just stand still and let 20 people beat us to death.

Counterplay

Over the course of the past 3 years you have removed a lot of counterplay from the game, which lead to stupid dumbed down gameplay that punishes good players and rewards bad players. This can't possibly be what you want in this game.

Let me name a few things real quick: Soul assault (used to be bashable/cleansable/cloakable), Meteor (used to be reflectable), Wrecking Blow (used to be bashable) and probably some other things, but you get the point.

Please bring back some counterplay to this game instead of slowly removing it with every patch.

This brings us to my last point i wanna talk about:

Missing Bug Fixes

Stop pushing out more and more content, without fixing the bugs you introduce with every patch. This mainly affects PVP, since ZOS seems to have given up on actually fixing things in Cyrodiil.

Why do we still have bugs that have been around since the beta of this game? ZOS, it's been 3 years! Why aren't you fixing these bugs? The amount of bugs and glitches is getting outta hand. I'm not overexaggerating when i'm saying this: i am encountering at least 1 bug per minute when i'm playing PVP. This is inacceptable.

Just a quick list: can't activate objects like wayshrines and doors, can't swap weapons, can't use a pot, can't use skills, can't use ultimates, horse gets slowed down on even terrain, crit rushing into loadscreen, LOADSCREENS in general, bloodmayne quicksand, sliding down terrain in slowmo, no cc break, double ccs, magelight not working half of the time, etc...

Feel free to add to the endless list of PVP bugs.

Can we please have weekly bug fixes? You can't just pile buggy code on top of buggy code without cleaning out these bugs. How many more people do you want to lose because they're fed up with the bad coding you're doing? Stop pushing content, fix the bugs! DAMMIT.

Alright, that's it. I'm done. Have fun ripping this thread to shreds.
  • Kodrac
    Kodrac
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    Nerfs are never gentle.
  • FlyLionel
    FlyLionel
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    Yep, counterplay is a big one. I like roll dodging proc'd frags, don't like getting executed through a dodge-roll but it is within design. Reflecting meteors, bashing resurrection and negating someone else's negate in a large vital fight. As for Wrecking Blow I think all you need to do is walk straight through the person or just do a quick block or dodgeroll lol...pretty easy to dodge honestly. And yeah what's up with soul assault? Curse+proc frag+execute+soul assault+spam execute= lol? Medium armour problems..Nice post.
    The Flyers
  • MADshadowman_
    MADshadowman_
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    FlyLionel wrote: »
    Yep, counterplay is a big one. I like roll dodging proc'd frags, don't like getting executed through a dodge-roll but it is within design. Reflecting meteors, bashing resurrection and negating someone else's negate in a large vital fight. As for Wrecking Blow I think all you need to do is walk straight through the person or just do a quick block or dodgeroll lol...pretty easy to dodge honestly. And yeah what's up with soul assault? Curse+proc frag+execute+soul assault+spam execute= lol? Medium armour problems..Nice post.

    Walking through a wrecking blow only works if you fight against a noob and have no other people attacking you. If you're 1vXing or have an experienced player wrecking blow you, you will have a hard time avoiding these attacks.

    And it's not that i have a problem with wrecking blow monkeys, i just wanted to mention that ZOS removed the direct counterplay to that, which was an interrupt.
  • MADshadowman_
    MADshadowman_
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    Kodrac wrote: »
    Nerfs are never gentle.

    Yeah, if you do it like ZOS. You can't fix issues by smashing everything to pieces.
  • Rinmaethodain
    Rinmaethodain
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    (...) Blocking: Your blocking changes are also not targeting the actual issue. You basically made blocking twice as expensive, which seems nice at the first glance, but AGAIN you nerfed it for EVERYONE. The real victims of these blanket nerfs aren't the ones that are causing the problem, but everyone else. There are PVP tanks, that can face tank 10 people for 5 minutes straight. Next patch they can still do it for like 2-3 minutes. That doesn't fix the issue, ZOS! The problem is the damage reduction when blocking with sword and board. that needs to be looked at + maaaaaybe the cost of it. Cause that makes sword and board block tanks weaker without punishing everyone for blocking. Magicka builds without sword and board or an ice staff can't afford to block anymore, because they will run out of stamina within 3 seconds if this change goes live.

    Reduce the damage reduction of sword and board, cause then you could take out tanks with a well timed combo from 2 players, instead of having 10 people beat on them for 20 minutes. (...)

    Implementing this change would be no different what you are complaining against: blanket nerfs that hurt people that are not part of the problem

    Reducing damage mitigation of block would backfire at PVE tanks and seriously threaten game balance in endgame content where trial bosses dish out large amount of damage in short time (vHRC HM Warrior Channeled Swipes, vMOL minigun attack, vAA HM 4+ axe tanking).

    But unfortunately this is what happens when ZOS since when game was released attempts to forcefully balance both PVP and PVE at the same time and refuses to finally spearate these two fields and start balancing them separately

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4055913

    The problem you are describing, 1 tank face tanking 10 people for 5 minutes - i do not see it as a problem at all. He is a tank, he is supposed to tank people and withstand damage. And people should counter it by simply ignoring him and attacking his teammates.

    If the real issue here is that he can face tank 10 people for 5 minutes and kill them, there is a very simple solution:

    Make all outgoing damage while blocking be reduced by 10/20/50/x%. Shield and 1-hander are meant to tank -> tank are meant to tank not deal damage -> with change like this the real PVE tanks are not hurt at all (nobody cares for tank's dps), the real PVP tanks are also not hurt at all (since role of real tank is provide support).

    The only "hurt" people are DPS with sword and shield pretending to be tanks while they are just permablocking DPSes - but that would be the exactly who this change would be aimed at. If they want to deal damage they should go back to 2-handers and DW. Real tanks suffered enough because of PVP issues already because of them.



    Edited by Rinmaethodain on April 28, 2017 2:15PM
  • MADshadowman_
    MADshadowman_
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    (...) Blocking: Your blocking changes are also not targeting the actual issue. You basically made blocking twice as expensive, which seems nice at the first glance, but AGAIN you nerfed it for EVERYONE. The real victims of these blanket nerfs aren't the ones that are causing the problem, but everyone else. There are PVP tanks, that can face tank 10 people for 5 minutes straight. Next patch they can still do it for like 2-3 minutes. That doesn't fix the issue, ZOS! The problem is the damage reduction when blocking with sword and board. that needs to be looked at + maaaaaybe the cost of it. Cause that makes sword and board block tanks weaker without punishing everyone for blocking. Magicka builds without sword and board or an ice staff can't afford to block anymore, because they will run out of stamina within 3 seconds if this change goes live.

    Reduce the damage reduction of sword and board, cause then you could take out tanks with a well timed combo from 2 players, instead of having 10 people beat on them for 20 minutes. (...)

    Implementing this change would be no different what you are complaining against: blanket nerfs that hurt people that are not part of the problem

    Reducing damage mitigation of block would backfire at PVE tanks and seriously threaten game balance in endgame content where trial bosses dish out large amount of damage in short time (vHRC HM Warrior Channeled Swipes, vMOL minigun attack, vAA HM 4+ axe tanking).

    But unfortunately this is what happens when ZOS since when game was released attempts to forcefully balance both PVP and PVE at the same time and refuses to finally spearate these two fields and start balancing them separately

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4055913

    The problem you are describing, 1 tank face tanking 10 people for 5 minutes - i do not see it as a problem at all. He is a tank, he is supposed to tank people and withstand damage. And people should counter it by simply ignoring him and attacking his teammates.

    If the real issue here is that he can face tank 10 people for 5 minutes and kill them, there is a very simple solution:

    Make all outgoing damage while blocking be reduced by 10/20/50/x%. Shield and 1-hander are meant to tank -> tank are meant to tank not deal damage -> with change like this the real PVE tanks are not hurt at all (nobody cares for tank's dps), the real PVP tanks are also not hurt at all (since role of real tank is provide support).

    The only "hurt" people are DPS with sword and shield pretending to be tanks while they are just permablocking DPSes - but that would be the exactly who this change would be aimed at. If they want to deal damage they should go back to 2-handers and DW. Real tanks suffered enough because of PVP issues already because of them.

    Ignoring a problem, doesn't solve the problem. no one should be able to reduce damage by 90%. Not even a PVE tank. If this affects you as a PVE player, you might wanna figure out a different way to stay alive. PVP players have to adapt to a new meta every 3-4 months. PVE players are welcome to join the hassle.

    You have active dodging, passive dodging, health based shields, magicka based shields, mist form, damage reduction passives from classes and item sets. There are so many mechanics in the game that help you as a PVE tank. If you think block is the only thing you can do, then i don't know what to tell you.

    And here would be a better solution for fixing the PVP/PVE balance issue:

    "incoming damage from players is reduced by X amount. Incoming damage from NPCs and bosses is reduced by Y amount."

    In Cyrodiil the system already differentiates between players and npcs when it comes to your outgoing damage. I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to expand this system to incoming player/npc damage.
  • DHale
    DHale
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    I like how people that don't play anymore make recommendations about the game.... gg.
    Sorcerna, proud beta sorc. RIP April 2014 to May 31 2016 DArk Brotherhood. Out of retirement for negates and encases. Sorcerna will be going back into retirement to be my main crafter Fall 2018. Because an 8 k shield is f ing useless. Died because of baddies on the forum. Too much qq too little pew pew. 16 AD 2 DC. 0 EP cause they bad, CP 2300 plus 18 level 50 toons. NA, PC, Grey Host#SORCLIVESMATTER actually they don’t or they wouldn’t keep getting nerfed constantly.
  • MADshadowman_
    MADshadowman_
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    DHale wrote: »
    I like how people that don't play anymore make recommendations about the game.... gg.

    Who are you referring to?
  • Synozeer
    Synozeer
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    How about all the bugs that have been in game for months/years without being fixed? Some bugs are ignored, others take a year to get to.

    Just off the top of my head:

    Shadow Cloak (broken every time no matter how many times they say it's fixed)
    Missing/wrong traits on PVP armor like no impen on Fasalla shields, weapon damage trait on Ice Furnace
    Broken armor sets (Truth, Willow's path)
    Flying Blade triggering poisons (no cooldown)
    Clouding Swarm invis issue (which was just changed into another spell instead of fixing it)
    Charging into loading screens
    Malubeth and other damage/heal items healing for ridiculous amounts (like 20k healing ticks)
    etc...

    Watch my PvP Videos on YouTube

    Azoi - Nightblade - Daggerfall Covenant - NA Server - 1st DC NA Grand Overlord
    Hzarn - Templar - Daggerfall Covenant - NA Server - Grand Overlord
    ...and many more.
  • MADshadowman_
    MADshadowman_
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    Synozeer wrote: »
    How about all the bugs that have been in game for months/years without being fixed? Some bugs are ignored, others take a year to get to.

    Just off the top of my head:

    Shadow Cloak (broken every time no matter how many times they say it's fixed)
    Missing/wrong traits on PVP armor like no impen on Fasalla shields, weapon damage trait on Ice Furnace
    Broken armor sets (Truth, Willow's path)
    Flying Blade triggering poisons (no cooldown)
    Clouding Swarm invis issue (which was just changed into another spell instead of fixing it)
    Charging into loading screens
    Malubeth and other damage/heal items healing for ridiculous amounts (like 20k healing ticks)
    etc...

    Well, I kinda touched on this topic at the end of my post, but I welcome every addition to the long list of pvp bugs.
  • Synozeer
    Synozeer
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    Synozeer wrote: »
    How about all the bugs that have been in game for months/years without being fixed? Some bugs are ignored, others take a year to get to.

    Just off the top of my head:

    Shadow Cloak (broken every time no matter how many times they say it's fixed)
    Missing/wrong traits on PVP armor like no impen on Fasalla shields, weapon damage trait on Ice Furnace
    Broken armor sets (Truth, Willow's path)
    Flying Blade triggering poisons (no cooldown)
    Clouding Swarm invis issue (which was just changed into another spell instead of fixing it)
    Charging into loading screens
    Malubeth and other damage/heal items healing for ridiculous amounts (like 20k healing ticks)
    etc...

    Well, I kinda touched on this topic at the end of my post, but I welcome every addition to the long list of pvp bugs.

    That you did. Meant to expand on that part of your post with some examples but I sounded like I was adding a new chapter - you covered pretty much everything.
    Watch my PvP Videos on YouTube

    Azoi - Nightblade - Daggerfall Covenant - NA Server - 1st DC NA Grand Overlord
    Hzarn - Templar - Daggerfall Covenant - NA Server - Grand Overlord
    ...and many more.
  • SnubbS
    SnubbS
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    I've played PvP since 1.6 and in my opinion there hasn't ever been "Too much damage." Too much Tankiness, yes—not damage though.
    Xbox NA: SnubbS
    GoW eSports player & part time ESO Pug Ball Zerger.
    GB
  • MADshadowman_
    MADshadowman_
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    SnubbS wrote: »
    I've played PvP since 1.6 and in my opinion there hasn't ever been "Too much damage." Too much Tankiness, yes—not damage though.

    So the 25k insta proc fiasco we had with one tamriel wasn't enough?
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