There should be BOC sets - bound on crafting
Jacozilla
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Came up as tangent in mother discussion but wanted this to be separate focus as it deserves.
We have BOE gear - bind on equip. Fine. Can debate set balance, buffs, nerfs, but BOE is here to stay
We have BOP gear - bind on pick up. Fine. Limited trading with people in group when item dropped, but otherwise enforces ownership to 'you must go here to get it vs buy on guild store'. Again, fine - however sets are balanced, BOP category is here to stay.
So why aren't craters who spend 9+ months at fastest, rewarded with BOC - bound on crafting gear?
This would allow crafted sets to be superior in some ways, for some builds, for some sets - WITHOUT enraging the automatic response of vet and trials players who don't feel it was earned if you bought it. And not allow none to wear endgame gear just by paying a crafter.
We already have craftable BOE gear - almost all but ~3-4 sets which are fairly useless but however you feel about them, they are wearable by all.
If BOC sets were made, with the best sets limited to only 9 trait (or even new 10th trait) - this would limit ownership to those who actually attained 9 trait master crafter status.
That's my .02 cents. Please add endgame equivalent to top trials gear to newly created bound on crafting 9 or 10 trait sets. Ty.
We have BOE gear - bind on equip. Fine. Can debate set balance, buffs, nerfs, but BOE is here to stay
We have BOP gear - bind on pick up. Fine. Limited trading with people in group when item dropped, but otherwise enforces ownership to 'you must go here to get it vs buy on guild store'. Again, fine - however sets are balanced, BOP category is here to stay.
So why aren't craters who spend 9+ months at fastest, rewarded with BOC - bound on crafting gear?
This would allow crafted sets to be superior in some ways, for some builds, for some sets - WITHOUT enraging the automatic response of vet and trials players who don't feel it was earned if you bought it. And not allow none to wear endgame gear just by paying a crafter.
We already have craftable BOE gear - almost all but ~3-4 sets which are fairly useless but however you feel about them, they are wearable by all.
If BOC sets were made, with the best sets limited to only 9 trait (or even new 10th trait) - this would limit ownership to those who actually attained 9 trait master crafter status.
That's my .02 cents. Please add endgame equivalent to top trials gear to newly created bound on crafting 9 or 10 trait sets. Ty.
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mewcatus✭✭✭Why not just allow Bound to player Crafting materials, which can be used to craft Dungeon Sets, to drop? That would require a player who has not only mastered the crafting line, but also be a good dungeon crawler too. A perfect reward to completionist players. Just make the basic material cost like silk to be 10 times the non dungeon crafted set, and you will create a new demand for old currency.Edited by mewcatus on April 23, 2017 2:37AM0
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colig✭✭✭✭Please add endgame equivalent to top trials gear to newly created bound on crafting 9 or 10 trait sets. Ty.
Not going to happen. It's much easier -- well, only time required -- to research all traits than run trials repeatedly for good gear. Everything else you said is pretty spot on though.1 -
FlyLionel✭✭✭✭I do not even think there is a 9trait crafted set in Morrowind. Really? Guess I will just keep making these Tbs sets. 10/10The Flyers0 -
Please add endgame equivalent to top trials gear to newly created bound on crafting 9 or 10 trait sets. Ty.
Not going to happen. It's much easier -- well, only time required -- to research all traits than run trials repeatedly for good gear. Everything else you said is pretty spot on though.
This is not precisely true. After all, you have to feed gear into the hopper to do the research to acquire a trait. That gear has to have the trait you want to research. And where does that gear come from? Yeah, that gear comes from drops.0 -
colig✭✭✭✭BellatorMortalis wrote: »Please add endgame equivalent to top trials gear to newly created bound on crafting 9 or 10 trait sets. Ty.
Not going to happen. It's much easier -- well, only time required -- to research all traits than run trials repeatedly for good gear. Everything else you said is pretty spot on though.
This is not precisely true. After all, you have to feed gear into the hopper to do the research to acquire a trait. That gear has to have the trait you want to research. And where does that gear come from? Yeah, that gear comes from drops.
You get the items as you play the game. You don't have to go out of your way to get them, except for those pesky nirnhorned items.0 -
Jacozilla✭✭✭✭✭Please add endgame equivalent to top trials gear to newly created bound on crafting 9 or 10 trait sets. Ty.
Not going to happen. It's much easier -- well, only time required -- to research all traits than run trials repeatedly for good gear. Everything else you said is pretty spot on though.
And yet for many people, in many trial runs - time is all it takes as well.
Not all, not most or some exaggeration like that - but let's face it - for a pretty big chunk of your average trial runs, it is 2-4 key people carrying everyone else. And not with just their characters - not saying that. But the core knowledge, the Lexi g the group, calling out the boss mechanics and tactics to use, calling out corrections.
If you have 2-4 key people like that, basically everyone else is along for the ride and de facto free loot. Can they suck? No. But do they need some leet trial skills? Also no.
In short, getting trials gear for a substantial number of players involves nothing more than showing up. Just like crafters except no matter how much you grind, wish, or deny it - there is a precise hard math to how soon you can at best become a full 9 trait crafter on multiple lines to craft a complete 9 trait armor + weapons set.
If a trials player were told - no matter how good you are, no matter how much you repeat grind, you have 0% chance to attain X gear, what would be the reaction ? It would be what people re saying about VMA.
Fortunately the bis trials gear isn't as atrocious as VMA RNG v time spent. But neither is crafting as much a freebie that just takes time vs trials gear. If you disgrace that a big chunk of players earn top end trials gear just for showing up because of leadership of some key people , please explain why you disagree.2 -
Rainwhisper✭✭✭✭✭I think this is a great idea, and I liked my crafter-only items in WoW.
If getting a 9-trait crafter were easy, they wouldn't be so in demand.0 -
colig✭✭✭✭If you have 2-4 key people like that, basically everyone else is along for the ride and de facto free loot. Can they suck? No. But do they need some leet trial skills? Also no.
In short, getting trials gear for a substantial number of players involves nothing more than showing up.
So wait, the people being carried aren't allowed to suck but they only need to show up? Please clarify which one it is.Fortunately the bis trials gear isn't as atrocious as VMA RNG v time spent. But neither is crafting as much a freebie that just takes time vs trials gear. If you disgrace that a big chunk of players earn top end trials gear just for showing up because of leadership of some key people , please explain why you disagree.
I'm sorry, I don't understand this part, especially the second sentence.
edit: fixed wrong quote and elaborated furtherEdited by colig on April 23, 2017 3:03AM0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Came up as tangent in mother discussion but wanted this to be separate focus as it deserves.
We have BOE gear - bind on equip. Fine. Can debate set balance, buffs, nerfs, but BOE is here to stay
We have BOP gear - bind on pick up. Fine. Limited trading with people in group when item dropped, but otherwise enforces ownership to 'you must go here to get it vs buy on guild store'. Again, fine - however sets are balanced, BOP category is here to stay.
So why aren't craters who spend 9+ months at fastest, rewarded with BOC - bound on crafting gear?
This would allow crafted sets to be superior in some ways, for some builds, for some sets - WITHOUT enraging the automatic response of vet and trials players who don't feel it was earned if you bought it. And not allow none to wear endgame gear just by paying a crafter.
We already have craftable BOE gear - almost all but ~3-4 sets which are fairly useless but however you feel about them, they are wearable by all.
If BOC sets were made, with the best sets limited to only 9 trait (or even new 10th trait) - this would limit ownership to those who actually attained 9 trait master crafter status.
That's my .02 cents. Please add endgame equivalent to top trials gear to newly created bound on crafting 9 or 10 trait sets. Ty.
BoC gear, especially if it is BiS, would essentially require anyone interested in the best gear to be a master crafter. Anyone who had not bothered to do all that research would be left out and it is not a small undertaking to all of a sudden make it mandatory.
As someone who has everything researched and all crafting maxed I would day no.
Now, I would not mind special crafting material drop only in vet dungeons on last boss and HM offering a much larger amount. It could be required for crafting special sets and could be sold or traded to other players. It could increase the draw to raiding and maybe have anything that would be crafted with it require 9 traits.
That would strengthen crafting as well.0 -
itehache✭✭✭✭Why?
One of the main reasons I am a master crafter is that I can craft 9 trait gear for my guildies/friends/whoever in zone chat
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Rainwhisper✭✭✭✭✭The gear doesn't need to be uniquely Best-in-Slot, just an upgrade from what you can craft for others.
The idea is to not push more players into raiding, and to give an alternative path of diligence and persistence for better gear.1 -
Majeure✭✭✭✭Bound on Crafting .. that'd just be Bound on Pickup.
Anyway, you wouldn't really be rewarding those master crafters, but taking their potential of trade away.
At the same time, I don't see that as such a huge problem if it had been that way from the beginning of 9 traits or so, rolling it in now just doesn't make sense.1 -
Jacozilla✭✭✭✭✭If you have 2-4 key people like that, basically everyone else is along for the ride and de facto free loot. Can they suck? No. But do they need some leet trial skills? Also no.
In short, getting trials gear for a substantial number of players involves nothing more than showing up.
So wait, the people being carried aren't allowed to suck but they only need to show up? Please clarify which one it is.Fortunately the bis trials gear isn't as atrocious as VMA RNG v time spent. But neither is crafting as much a freebie that just takes time vs trials gear. If you disgrace that a big chunk of players earn top end trials gear just for showing up because of leadership of some key people , please explain why you disagree.
I'm sorry, I don't understand this part, especially the second sentence.
edit: fixed wrong quote and elaborated further
to first question - not sucking vs showing up - either you will agree or disagree, but hopefully agree --> there is a difference, rather critical, between actually sucking (e.g. not following directions even if you don't know why or understand - just follow the key raid leader and assistants directions) and just being neutral
so what I was saying was for a good portion of trials gear obtained, you just need to show up. You don't need to know the tactics, the mechanics, nothing - because one or more of these key players will call them out for you. You also don't need to be good or great at your class - just not be so bad you are the one they kick for causing too many wipes.
I am making the distinction that it is not a black white choice of you are either a skilled trials player or just suck. There is a big broad grey swath in between of avg, so so, or just no nothing but can follow directions people. My reply was in the context that crafting was portrayed as no skill being involved, just time. Hence it's somehow not as much 'earned' gear as trials gear.
To which I agree to some degree - but also point out that you can also basically be a complete blank check, show up, and in most trials earn end game gear just for being there AND not being so bad we classify you as detrimental to the raid even beyond the ability of the key people to carry you.
The second question - I was acknowledging that not all end game gear is simply time based. I believe VMA is acknowledged to be so bad, for some people, that it can be 9 hours or 9 months before you get your sharpened staff drop. If you get it in hours, great. If not, you're the guy posting without hyperbole or exaggeration that you did VMA for last year and still don't have what you want.
Reason I acknowledged this was because I believe I am fair - crafting 9 traits master crafter is simply a time sink, but a large time sink with no workaround. It is what it is, something around ~9 months. But so is trials gear - there is some rng involved, but not as atrocious as VMA. If you just show up, don't have to be good or great, just not suck so bad you get kicked - you will 'earn' your end game trials gear far before the 9 months a master crafter gets maxed out.
Can there be exceptions? Of course. There has to be at least 1 legit guy that spent 9+ months in trials and got all prosperous traits. It is possible. But that is not the norm that something like VMA is - I think we all agree VMA is so bad it is it's own exception. For trials gear in general, you are going to have your full set of whatever trials gear other than gold jewelry in far before 9 months.
So - apples and oranges yes, but as close as can be compared, you have 1 activity - crafting, requiring little skill but does require nose to grind stone and knowledge - what order, min max, reduce time to cut poorly planned trait research taking years, to minimum of ~9 months.
Trials - same thing, you can blow through normal to get gear and gold them out. Only vet trials for higher color jewelry. I ask again - without the typo, sorry I meant 'disagree' rather than the autocorrection of 'disgrace' - if you disagree that a big chunk of players can earn top end trials gear just for showing up, please explain why.
My contention is a big chunk of players can easily get end game trials gear just by showing up and know absolutely zero aspect of that trial - just do what the raid leader and key assistants tell you do. I don't classify this a somehow having some large differential of earned skill vs crafters who minimize their research order to get the most done over shortest period of time. They are both equivalent in terms of basically, show up, get it done.
I am not asking for BOC gear to be better, simply equivalent to SOME of the top end trials gear. It would only be able to be worn by the actual crafter who put in the time to get to that 9 or new 10th trait. That means by definition no one who hasn't been in the game at least 9-12 months is going to be wearing these trial equivalent gear.
So the question is - would 9-12 months waiting for some of the best trial gear be considered unreasonable? If the question was posed as you can't get trials gear by doing trials for at least 9 months - the answer would be F-No. And rightly so. that is the core of why VMA is so hated yes?
So why not agree that crafters should have end game trials equivalent sets that they can't get any sooner than ~9 months? You will never have 1 month just started newbies wearing this gear - so what is the objection? Time? Sorry no - crafters already put in more time than your average trials raider. Skill? Can agree to disagree but I maintain for many players, don't need any skill at all to binge through a bunch of normal raids and come out with trials gear - excluding gold jewelry of course, but crafting has no jewelry anyway so non issue.
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Jacozilla✭✭✭✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Came up as tangent in mother discussion but wanted this to be separate focus as it deserves.
We have BOE gear - bind on equip. Fine. Can debate set balance, buffs, nerfs, but BOE is here to stay
We have BOP gear - bind on pick up. Fine. Limited trading with people in group when item dropped, but otherwise enforces ownership to 'you must go here to get it vs buy on guild store'. Again, fine - however sets are balanced, BOP category is here to stay.
So why aren't craters who spend 9+ months at fastest, rewarded with BOC - bound on crafting gear?
This would allow crafted sets to be superior in some ways, for some builds, for some sets - WITHOUT enraging the automatic response of vet and trials players who don't feel it was earned if you bought it. And not allow none to wear endgame gear just by paying a crafter.
We already have craftable BOE gear - almost all but ~3-4 sets which are fairly useless but however you feel about them, they are wearable by all.
If BOC sets were made, with the best sets limited to only 9 trait (or even new 10th trait) - this would limit ownership to those who actually attained 9 trait master crafter status.
That's my .02 cents. Please add endgame equivalent to top trials gear to newly created bound on crafting 9 or 10 trait sets. Ty.
BoC gear, especially if it is BiS, would essentially require anyone interested in the best gear to be a master crafter. Anyone who had not bothered to do all that research would be left out and it is not a small undertaking to all of a sudden make it mandatory.
As someone who has everything researched and all crafting maxed I would day no.
Now, I would not mind special crafting material drop only in vet dungeons on last boss and HM offering a much larger amount. It could be required for crafting special sets and could be sold or traded to other players. It could increase the draw to raiding and maybe have anything that would be crafted with it require 9 traits.
That would strengthen crafting as well.
I agree - and this is why I did not ask for nor would I support BOC sets = BiS
All I asked for and would support is having SOME bound on crafting sets, requiring the highest level of maxed research at 9 traits or even a new 10th trait we'd have to attain, to have the mere 'equivalents' of some end game trials sets.
Now maybe ZOS would screw up and make it, if they ever did this, so that a BOC set was literally BiS. Fine, then nerf it. You'd have my blessing. All I am asking for is what I think is not unreasonable - some equivalent sets that can only be made and worn by maxed out crafters that is merely the equivalent of - not better - than the end game trials sets.
In fact, to make balancing easy - don't even make them separate sets. Just allow crafters to BOC craft some of the end game trials sets themselves. Whatever method - and maybe only crafters care - but there is no end game reason to craft. Period. At least right now.
If we had BOC sets that were at least equivalent to some trials gear, then you'd have a limited mechanic that would prevent people who don't have max crafting to wear those items, so no binge selling on guild stores, and a time sink that has no loophole or way to overcome short of sheer wait it out, so no 'hi I am a day 2 noob to ESO but here I am wearing endgame gear'0 -
colig✭✭✭✭If you have 2-4 key people like that, basically everyone else is along for the ride and de facto free loot. Can they suck? No. But do they need some leet trial skills? Also no.
In short, getting trials gear for a substantial number of players involves nothing more than showing up.
So wait, the people being carried aren't allowed to suck but they only need to show up? Please clarify which one it is.Fortunately the bis trials gear isn't as atrocious as VMA RNG v time spent. But neither is crafting as much a freebie that just takes time vs trials gear. If you disgrace that a big chunk of players earn top end trials gear just for showing up because of leadership of some key people , please explain why you disagree.
I'm sorry, I don't understand this part, especially the second sentence.
edit: fixed wrong quote and elaborated further
to first question - not sucking vs showing up - either you will agree or disagree, but hopefully agree --> there is a difference, rather critical, between actually sucking (e.g. not following directions even if you don't know why or understand - just follow the key raid leader and assistants directions) and just being neutral
so what I was saying was for a good portion of trials gear obtained, you just need to show up. You don't need to know the tactics, the mechanics, nothing - because one or more of these key players will call them out for you. You also don't need to be good or great at your class - just not be so bad you are the one they kick for causing too many wipes.
I am making the distinction that it is not a black white choice of you are either a skilled trials player or just suck. There is a big broad grey swath in between of avg, so so, or just no nothing but can follow directions people. My reply was in the context that crafting was portrayed as no skill being involved, just time. Hence it's somehow not as much 'earned' gear as trials gear.
To which I agree to some degree - but also point out that you can also basically be a complete blank check, show up, and in most trials earn end game gear just for being there AND not being so bad we classify you as detrimental to the raid even beyond the ability of the key people to carry you.
The second question - I was acknowledging that not all end game gear is simply time based. I believe VMA is acknowledged to be so bad, for some people, that it can be 9 hours or 9 months before you get your sharpened staff drop. If you get it in hours, great. If not, you're the guy posting without hyperbole or exaggeration that you did VMA for last year and still don't have what you want.
Reason I acknowledged this was because I believe I am fair - crafting 9 traits master crafter is simply a time sink, but a large time sink with no workaround. It is what it is, something around ~9 months. But so is trials gear - there is some rng involved, but not as atrocious as VMA. If you just show up, don't have to be good or great, just not suck so bad you get kicked - you will 'earn' your end game trials gear far before the 9 months a master crafter gets maxed out.
Can there be exceptions? Of course. There has to be at least 1 legit guy that spent 9+ months in trials and got all prosperous traits. It is possible. But that is not the norm that something like VMA is - I think we all agree VMA is so bad it is it's own exception. For trials gear in general, you are going to have your full set of whatever trials gear other than gold jewelry in far before 9 months.
So - apples and oranges yes, but as close as can be compared, you have 1 activity - crafting, requiring little skill but does require nose to grind stone and knowledge - what order, min max, reduce time to cut poorly planned trait research taking years, to minimum of ~9 months.
Trials - same thing, you can blow through normal to get gear and gold them out. Only vet trials for higher color jewelry. I ask again - without the typo, sorry I meant 'disagree' rather than the autocorrection of 'disgrace' - if you disagree that a big chunk of players can earn top end trials gear just for showing up, please explain why.
My contention is a big chunk of players can easily get end game trials gear just by showing up and know absolutely zero aspect of that trial - just do what the raid leader and key assistants tell you do. I don't classify this a somehow having some large differential of earned skill vs crafters who minimize their research order to get the most done over shortest period of time. They are both equivalent in terms of basically, show up, get it done.
I am not asking for BOC gear to be better, simply equivalent to SOME of the top end trials gear. It would only be able to be worn by the actual crafter who put in the time to get to that 9 or new 10th trait. That means by definition no one who hasn't been in the game at least 9-12 months is going to be wearing these trial equivalent gear.
So the question is - would 9-12 months waiting for some of the best trial gear be considered unreasonable? If the question was posed as you can't get trials gear by doing trials for at least 9 months - the answer would be F-No. And rightly so. that is the core of why VMA is so hated yes?
So why not agree that crafters should have end game trials equivalent sets that they can't get any sooner than ~9 months? You will never have 1 month just started newbies wearing this gear - so what is the objection? Time? Sorry no - crafters already put in more time than your average trials raider. Skill? Can agree to disagree but I maintain for many players, don't need any skill at all to binge through a bunch of normal raids and come out with trials gear - excluding gold jewelry of course, but crafting has no jewelry anyway so non issue.
Hey, thanks for the response. That makes a lot more sense. Ok, I agree, crafted sets could certainly do with greater parity with trial gear.0