The Werewolf Experience

SickleCider · April 2017

Werewolves in ESO. Absolutely love the idea. My friends do, too. We think the werewolves are SUPER CUTE and are quite taken with the fact that an MMO has actually allowed you to become one. There's just one big, crippling thing that's putting a major damper in the experience. I was aware of it before, but realized what a damaging flaw it is when my friends both described the werewolf experience as "stressful."

Namely, the stress is coming from the strict werewolf timer. This results in a lot of dashing about looking for stacks of corpses to devour, which

doesn't allow you to form a comfortable rotation with the werewolf abilities and
more importantly, doesn't allow you to actually take a moment to admire the experience of being a werewolf.

The whole thing is very flash in the pan. Considering how difficult it is to become a werewolf if you adhere to the actual mechanics provided within the means of the game (i.e., don't beg for a bite in zone chat), you would hope there would be a little more return on that effort. All of us understand the purpose of the very narrow timer. For the sake of balancing PVP, the werewolf shouldn't be too overpowered. We feel that there could have been other ways of introducing that balance, though, without completely pinching the gameplay of those that aren't interested in PVP, and who really just wish to enjoy the mystique of being a wolf, hunting and exploring. Treating the whole thing as merely a combat ultimate seems a sad disservice.

Disclaimer: I'm aware of passives that allow the timer to be extended by taking damage or having other werewolves in your party. In practice, these passives don't seem to do a lot.

So, here are my personal thoughts on the matter. First, the simple ways to eliminate that stress:

Truly stackable werewolf feeding. Eliminating the hard cap on the timer would allow players to feed enough to potentially extend their transformation by minutes, even hours. This was the way it worked in Skyrim and it worked well. It didn't feel overpowered, rather a reasonable return. You still ran into situations where your timer ran out.
Eliminating the timer altogether. Making the transformation persistent until death, self-revert, or other circumstances.

Of course, the tweak would need to be balanced. Some thoughts on that:

Werewolf weaknesses. The vampires have a crippling weakness to fire and health regen that compensates for permanent vampiric state. A similar set of weaknesses could be instituted for werewolves.
Higher ultimate cost. Eliminate instances where players are popping into werewolf form every few minutes, but reward them with a greatly enhanced duration.
Soft nerf to werewolf DPS or sustain. Not so much that the werewolf no longer provides an advantage in combat, but just to prevent players from zooming through Tamriel like a wrecking ball. Not my favorite idea, but an obvious suggestion.

What would you suggest? I admit that I've only been playing the game since beginning of January, so I haven't done a lot of the intimate probing into the game that a lot of other players have. It's possible that there's some other very important reason that the system works the way it does. We're a group of 30 year old women who come to games like ESO in order to unwind while we wait for some of the other more punishing game franchises to drop new content; i.e., not super interested in PVP or min maxing. I'm not sure whether that puts us outside of the designated demographic and makes my opinion a very silly one.

Well, anyway, share your thoughts. No harm in it. Bless.

GrumpyDuckling · April 2017

I enjoy reading good suggestions on improving werewolf. My idea was to have a permanent lasting morph that was more tanky but did less damage. That would allow people who enjoy werewolf to actually enjoy it. Here is the link to my original thread:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/298109/werewolf-toggle-a-meticulous-suggestion

SickleCider · April 2017

That's very indepth! I love some of your ideas. It seems like we were on the same general page, willing to sacrifice some of the damage output for longer duration. I had a feeling I couldn't be in the minority on that one.

Alchemical · April 2017

I would probably like Werewolf better if they changed it and made it a toggle in exchange for increased weakness. It would involve a major overhaul of the whole tree to do that though. I'm not sure it really needs that yet, but it's got its problems.

I've got 3 weres, one I play in PVP, one PvE, and one just because why not. I find werewolf extremely underwhelming in PvE, to be honest, its almost embarassing. In both types it's completely impotent until you max out the skill line, but a lot of the problems and gripes start to go away once you have all your skills and passives. The problem is that it makes werewolf an extremely heavy skill investment just for buffing an ultimate to the point it's NOT a detriment to use it. And it's still on a timer on top of that.

Honestly the only effective way to play werewolf is with a group of other werewolves and do the whole 'pack' thing so you can keep transformation up. You can run the salvation 5 piece set and reduce the cost to play solo wolf, but then you're taking away a 5 piece that would boost your damage or survivability that would make playing werewolf not a gross DPS loss.

Werewolf sustain also for sure does not need a nerf. We explode when focused in PVP, and EVERYONE focuses a Were when they see it in PVP. It's a 'natural taunt'. Werewolves aren't super squishy, but they're sure not tanks. We're fast, we ambush, we slap you with DoTs, and then we peel out. Honestly it plays a lot like Feral Druid in WoW... only more terrible.

SickleCider · April 2017

Alchemical wrote: »

The problem is that it makes werewolf an extremely heavy skill investment just for buffing an ultimate to the point it's NOT a detriment to use it. And it's still on a timer on top of that.

That is such an eloquent way of putting it that it's almost painful to read. Nail, head, hit.

The bit about sustain: I admit I winced as I typed that, because I actually agree with you. I would definitely consider that suggestion a compromising plea for ZOS, since nerfing is kind of what they do lately. (Not that I have particularly strong feelings about the patch notes. I need to see the changes in action to know whether I hate them.)

WhitC1935 · April 2017

My Werewolf character is L9. I enjoy playing him, but I do understand the stress factor. Something needs to be done to improve transformation time.

One other suggestion I would like to see... an ability to access the Werewolf skill bar outside the transformed state in order to adjust the order or your skills.

starkerealm · April 2017

For what it's worth, you can extend the duration on the timer by a fair amount. Also, with some practice you can keep the werewolf transform going basically indefinitely, even without passives. With passives you can stay wolfed out for the duration of combat in most circumstances. What you can't do is pack up, store your transform and run around the map turning in quests, but that's intended.

SickleCider · April 2017

WhitC1935 wrote: »

One other suggestion I would like to see... an ability to access the Werewolf skill bar outside the transformed state in order to adjust the order or your skills.

There's a workaround for that, if it helps. If you go to a shrine of Hircine, within a small radius the timer freezes. You can do your skill bar then.

SickleCider · April 2017

starkerealm wrote: »

For what it's worth, you can extend the duration on the timer by a fair amount. Also, with some practice you can keep the werewolf transform going basically indefinitely, even without passives. With passives you can stay wolfed out for the duration of combat in most circumstances. What you can't do is pack up, store your transform and run around the map turning in quests, but that's intended.

Would you say an inability to turn in quests and speak to merchants in werewolf form would be a good balancing mechanic? As for the rest, I suppose we need more practice at it.

Rohamad_Ali · April 2017

I would be interested in seeing how WW would work if mechanically on the toolbar it swapped like Overload and with its own Ultimate . Being able to change back and forth for the duration would add a different dynamic .

SickleCider · April 2017

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I would be interested in seeing how WW would work if mechanically on the toolbar it swapped like Overload and with its own Ultimate . Being able to change back and forth for the duration would add a different dynamic .

That has potential. I would be interested to see how that would work, too.

Alchemical · April 2017

Versispellis wrote: »

As for the rest, I suppose we need more practice at it.

A Sorc with Power Stone (15%) and Salvation 5-piece (33%) can reduce the cost by 48% without any investment in the werewolf tree, but I have no idea how you would extend it without passives, much less indefinitely.

SickleCider · April 2017

Alchemical wrote: »

Versispellis wrote: »

As for the rest, I suppose we need more practice at it.

A Sorc with Power Stone (15%) and Salvation 5-piece (33%) can reduce the cost by 48% without any investment in the werewolf tree, but I have no idea how you would extend it without passives, much less indefinitely.

Interesting. Very interesting. Maybe not indefinite, but it's something tangible to work toward. Thanks!

KeiruNicrom · April 2017

Being in a group of 4 wws all with call of the pack passive have infinite time right now so that is one solution currently present, run as a pack.

Personally i would like the damage timer return passive to be changed into one that keeps you in ww form while in combat. Leave combat and the timer ticks down, stay in combat and the timer doesnt move. This would help wws stay in form mid combat possibly even making wws decent in vet dungeons and trials (doubtful but a wolf can dream).

SickleCider · April 2017

KeiruNicrom wrote: »

Being in a group of 4 wws all with call of the pack passive have infinite time right now so that is one solution currently present, run as a pack.

Personally i would like the damage timer return passive to be changed into one that keeps you in ww form while in combat. Leave combat and the timer ticks down, stay in combat and the timer doesnt move. This would help wws stay in form mid combat possibly even making wws decent in vet dungeons and trials (doubtful but a wolf can dream).

Infinite with four, really? We'll have to find a fourth werewolf and give this the old trial run!

That is a beautiful dream. I doubt that will ever be a reality, but it's truly sublime to think about.

starkerealm · April 2017

Versispellis wrote: »

KeiruNicrom wrote: »

Being in a group of 4 wws all with call of the pack passive have infinite time right now so that is one solution currently present, run as a pack.

Personally i would like the damage timer return passive to be changed into one that keeps you in ww form while in combat. Leave combat and the timer ticks down, stay in combat and the timer doesnt move. This would help wws stay in form mid combat possibly even making wws decent in vet dungeons and trials (doubtful but a wolf can dream).

Infinite with four, really? We'll have to find a fourth werewolf and give this the old trial run!

That is a beautiful dream. I doubt that will ever be a reality, but it's truly sublime to think about.

It's actually a -40% modifier, but still, that's a lot of time to mess around.

Celas_Dranacea · April 2017

Career werewolf here and I'm glad your enthusiastic about it - just my personal opinion that werewolf is great as is - I would prefer that ZOS do not touch werewolf and screw it up.

Also FYI that you can be in permanent werewolf by running with a group of werewolves - PERMANENT - it's truly fun and awesome and for me - it's the idea that your power becomes stronger when you run with a pack.

Good opinions though, fair ideas

SickleCider · April 2017

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

Career werewolf here and I'm glad your enthusiastic about it - just my personal opinion that werewolf is great as is - I would prefer that ZOS do not touch werewolf and screw it up.

Also FYI that you can be in permanent werewolf by running with a group of werewolves - PERMANENT - it's truly fun and awesome and for me - it's the idea that your power becomes stronger when you run with a pack.

Good opinions though, fair ideas

Can I just say that I think it's wonderful that you can disagree yet remain so positive and supportive? I think a lot of people could learn something from this.

And you know what, your opinion is valid! I think that perhaps my criticisms might have been coming from a place of premature ignorance about the pack modifier. There have been a lot of helpful tips in this thread.

Celas_Dranacea · April 2017

Versispellis wrote: »

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

Career werewolf here and I'm glad your enthusiastic about it - just my personal opinion that werewolf is great as is - I would prefer that ZOS do not touch werewolf and screw it up.

Also FYI that you can be in permanent werewolf by running with a group of werewolves - PERMANENT - it's truly fun and awesome and for me - it's the idea that your power becomes stronger when you run with a pack.

Good opinions though, fair ideas

Can I just say that I think it's wonderful that you can disagree yet remain so positive and supportive? I think a lot of people could learn something from this. And you know what, your opinion is valid! I think that perhaps my criticisms might have been coming from a place of premature ignorance about the pack modifier. There have been a lot of helpful tips in this thread.

Cheers brother - if you happen to be on NA PC and play AD, our guild Children of Hircine is a possible home for you

SickleCider · April 2017

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

Versispellis wrote: »

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

Career werewolf here and I'm glad your enthusiastic about it - just my personal opinion that werewolf is great as is - I would prefer that ZOS do not touch werewolf and screw it up.

Also FYI that you can be in permanent werewolf by running with a group of werewolves - PERMANENT - it's truly fun and awesome and for me - it's the idea that your power becomes stronger when you run with a pack.

Good opinions though, fair ideas

Can I just say that I think it's wonderful that you can disagree yet remain so positive and supportive? I think a lot of people could learn something from this. And you know what, your opinion is valid! I think that perhaps my criticisms might have been coming from a place of premature ignorance about the pack modifier. There have been a lot of helpful tips in this thread.

Cheers brother - if you happen to be on NA PC and play AD, our guild Children of Hircine is a possible home for you

Hehe, nah, console scrub here. Thank you, though!

SydneyGrey · April 2017

Alchemical wrote: »

I find werewolf extremely underwhelming in PvE, to be honest, its almost embarassing. In both types it's completely impotent until you max out the skill line, but a lot of the problems and gripes start to go away once you have all your skills and passives. The problem is that it makes werewolf an extremely heavy skill investment just for buffing an ultimate to the point it's NOT a detriment to use it. And it's still on a timer on top of that.

I've been a werewolf for only about a week, and agree so much with this. Basically, you have to "practice" being a werewolf lots and lots of times in order to build up the skills, so you can get those passives, otherwise you're weak as a kitten. (Puppy?)

I'm trying to remember to change into werewolf form whenever I go into a delve, because it's the perfect place to level it up ... lots of low-level enemies close to each other, at least until you get to the delve boss.

mr1sho · April 2017

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

Career werewolf here and I'm glad your enthusiastic about it - just my personal opinion that werewolf is great as is - I would prefer that ZOS do not touch werewolf and screw it up.

Also FYI that you can be in permanent werewolf by running with a group of werewolves - PERMANENT - it's truly fun and awesome and for me - it's the idea that your power becomes stronger when you run with a pack.

Good opinions though, fair ideas

What he said All I play is werewolves if they mess with my wolf I'm going be very angry

starkerealm · April 2017

Celas_Dranacea wrote: »

Also FYI that you can be in permanent werewolf by running with a group of werewolves - PERMANENT - it's truly fun and awesome and for me - it's the idea that your power becomes stronger when you run with a pack.

It's not, quite, permanent. I said it was a 40% cost discount, which isn't right, it's actually an 80% cost discount if you have the second point spent, which I forgot.

The way the mechanic technically works, your werewolf transform is a pool that constantly consumes resources. Reducing the cost (or recovering the transformation resource) extends the timer. So, the 80% discount effectively multiplies your transform timer by 5.

max_only · April 2017

Lovely ideas in here. Currently werewolf is like a neat trick my character can do, also it fits rp wise. I'd love it to have a passive when not in wolf form, maybe stamina regen. Just because I'm not on all fours doesn't mean I'm not still a werewolf!

Also
Is there a way to see the timer on the screen? I have Srendar add on....

starkerealm · April 2017

max_only wrote: »

Also
Is there a way to see the timer on the screen? I have Srendar add on....

It's the small blue bar under your Magicka bar.

Sakiri · April 2017

My stamblade actually relies on ww to kill stronger mobs like some delve bosses.

Nerfing the damage output makes it cosmetic fluff. No thanks.

Wolfchild07 · April 2017

Being in a group with other werewolves rarely ever happens. Maybe less than 1% of the time have I ever been in a dungeon with another werewolf. And that's just 1 other member. Since launch of the game, I have never been in a full group of wolves. So that 80% discount never happens and is a waste of a passive. It should just be longer naturally, or a toggle, and give us a more useful passive.

SickleCider · April 2017

Sakiri wrote: »

My stamblade actually relies on ww to kill stronger mobs like some delve bosses.

Nerfing the damage output makes it cosmetic fluff. No thanks.

I hear your concern and consider it legit.

SickleCider · April 2017

Wolfchild07 wrote: »

Being in a group with other werewolves rarely ever happens. Maybe less than 1% of the time have I ever been in a dungeon with another werewolf. And that's just 1 other member. Since launch of the game, I have never been in a full group of wolves. So that 80% discount never happens and is a waste of a passive. It should just be longer naturally, or a toggle, and give us a more useful passive.

I feel much the same way, but for the sake thoroughness and also honoring a lot of the helpful suggestions there have been in threads, let's hash this out. Do you have any friends you can bite, or have you joined any werewolf guilds?

mr1sho · April 2017

Wolfchild07 wrote: »

Being in a group with other werewolves rarely ever happens. Maybe less than 1% of the time have I ever been in a dungeon with another werewolf. And that's just 1 other member. Since launch of the game, I have never been in a full group of wolves. So that 80% discount never happens and is a waste of a passive. It should just be longer naturally, or a toggle, and give us a more useful passive.

Me and a couple guild members just did ww day we had a full group of WW and two healers and it was great you just gotta ask around or could start your own pack

geonsocal · April 2017

i had 4 ww's at one time...took a bunch of practice, but, they all were real useful for solo pve questing - made finishing up most bosses pretty quick...

switched two of the characters from stamina based to magicka based...

werewolf doesn't really mesh so great with light armor and magicka focused characters...

positive of it though - got about 22 skill points back to use...

it would be great if there was some magicka morph for damage absorption and the fear ability...

i don't know - I'm sure some folks have figured out a way to make it work with most of their attributes invested in magicka and wearing 5 light...

fun skill line to use...