Maintenance for the week of December 29:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – December 29
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – December 29
Miat's PVP Alerts just got updated! Now in 3D!
-
killimandrosb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭as always logic only applies to the maker of this addon. So when he tells people to be careful about how they adress himself, it doesnt mean HE has to be careful himself when HE is adressing others. Because HE is Dorrino. So far including me I have counted 13 of my fellow ranged players (that I have known since beta) leaving the game for one reason only; you Dorrino and your addon.
No I dont like you. Thats correct. I think you are a pompous *** with a very huge god complex. What annoys me more is how you have ruined my gameEdited by killimandrosb16_ESO on April 20, 2017 11:23PM6 -
Darnathian✭✭✭✭✭
✭killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »as always logic only applies to the maker of this addon. So when he tells people to be careful about how they adress himself, it doesnt mean HE has to be careful himself when HE is adressing others. Because HE is Dorrino. So far including me I have counted 13 of my fellow ranged players (that I have known since beta) leaving the game for one reason only; you Dorrino and your addon.
No I dont like you. Thats correct. I think you are a pompous *** with a very huge god complex. What annoys me more is how you have ruined my game
Agree. Zos u are losing more players.
And Dorrino, one thing others havent mentioned, I highly doubt you all of a sudden learned how to program. I am curious about how long you used this and other add ons you created you have been using. Trash3 -
clocksstoppe✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm truly sorry that 'many' people left the game, because the only pvp playstyle available to them was capitalizing on limitations of the game's ui.
Can you explain how not having eyes at the back of your head is a limitation of the game's ui?
Let me already answer for you: You can't.3 -
TheBonesXXX✭✭✭✭✭
✭TheBonesXXX wrote: »I am a Psych Major and a Military Veteran, I don't need you to tell me how perception works, I am quite the expert in the field both figuratively and literally.
Then, without doubt you'll find it really easy to support all of your claims. Please do so.TheBonesXXX wrote: »There are enhanced perceptual benefits in the game already, period. There is really no argument because it does not exist.
Please, being 'a Psych Major and a Military Veteran', provide the proper definition of 'enhanced perceptual benefits' (enhanced compared to what? To what degree? Why this degree is sufficient? Under which critera?).TheBonesXXX wrote: »A player already gets everything they need in the game to detect the stimulus as humanly possible, claiming the game is inadequate is false, there is already more than enough information in the game needed to respond; no additional information is needed unless the player themselves are inadequate at detecting stimuli.
I'm quite sure 'a Psych Major and a Military Veteran' would provide an extensive description as to the degree of the overlap between the game's default interface and range of stimuli humans possess and a proper justification that this degree is sufficiently high.TheBonesXXX wrote: »There is already more stimuli in the game needed to make a decision, the fact that a person needs extra means individual is not capable of actually making the decision unless the game tells the otherwise, meaning they're not good on their own merits, period.
This argument changes the subject from expanding players awareness to the necessity of expanding it. Meanwhile none of my arguments included said necessity, since the addon by no means is necessary to be effective in any aspect of the game. Claiming its necessity is wrong both from the design standpoint and real world experience.
But i'm sure you know all that, being 'a Psych Major and a Military Veteran', and this argument was simply misunderstood^_^
I'll put in plain English, your add-on is a crutch, if people need this blatant advantage they are just fooling themselves into thinking they're improving their decision making.
Our species is not capable of detecting the stimulus your add-on provides, theres nothing else that needs to be said. That's basic level Psychology you would learn in college.
Half of the visual queues in the game are additional stimulus, they're also not needed, but yours is over the top because it's 3rd party and no matter what you say or how you word your argument, you get additional information outside the game. It's not insufficient, you're relying on manipulating algorithms and information in order to get an edge because you actually lack it otherwise, the only thing you do is expose others who cannot process information fast enough to actually make decisions a human would normally make.
That's ACTUALLY what it is, no matter how much you bs yourself with your sentiments.
2 -
Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭Alrighty.
1. You have been heard. I hear some of you think that notifications should only happen for unobstructed targets within the current view-cone.
While i disagree with that and, unfortunately i haven't yet heard a strong justification for the benefits of this approach i do understand this point of view.
2. Even if we disagree please try to respect your opponent. He believes in his point as much as you believe in yours. If he disagrees he doesn't do that to make your feel bad or because he's too stupid to understand your arguments. Please use respect as a baseline of the conversations.
3. If you want ZOS to change this feature you need to think about a way to justify it more than 'it don't like it' or 'this is actually what it REALLY is'. Feeling strongly about the subject doesn't add any credibility to your opinion, because the opposing party might feel it even stronger:)
Now please keep a civil discussion going!
0 -
WhiteMage✭✭✭✭✭
✭The problem with justifying this one way or another is it seems to boil down to "It just doesn't feel right..." or "It's not fair!" There is not actually argument in there, though, so if no action will be taken without a compelling reason, nothing will change. That wouldn't really be an issue if "outside forces" had driven us to this point, but I don't think we even have that. We're just stuck in some arbitrary state of game mechanics with no particular reason to go anywhere or do anything about it. It's not optimized but it can't really become optimized, either.
What we have is a sneak attack mechanic that gives a tangible advantage to the "ganker" on top of the intangible advantage known as the element of surprise, as with any pre-emptive attack. Is this fair? It is not. It is intentionally unfair. What is unfair? Any advantage is an unfairness, but it is slight and arguably is what makes it exciting. The element of surprise is unfair, but no one really wants to (nor could) equalize it. So, that unfairness is written off. Now for the tangible, imposed advantage of a stun, an untelegraphed attack, a guaranteed critical hit, and a critical damage increase. That is unusual with respect to the rest of the game, and so is unfair. As said above, it is intentionally unfair. But by whose intention is it unfair, and what motive do they have to make it unfair?
I would assert that this unfairness was adopted because it is traditional in these games and class archetypes. For no other reason than it has been done before, so much so that it has become an accepted theme with stealth attacks. I believe the developer have no unique reason to include this than it was already the status quo to do so. Is that wrong? No. However, that does render it nearly indefensible.
As for addons, the developers have provided tools for player to use to make UI's for their own benefit and the game supplies hooks that feed information that can be interpreted and transformed for the convenience of the player. Why? Perhaps because it is a traditional thing for developers to do. Addons themselves are used to provide an external benefit, and so have a solid defense which is more than stealth attacks have. So, in order to better have an argument, a proponent of sneak attack advantages would reduce the scope that they have a problem in addons, specifically the telegraphing of attacks with a traveltime. The developers have spoken, in the meantime, and have sided with both sides in turn: sneak attacks do not have an increased critical damage modifier, but addons can no longer detect sneak attacks.
And so here we are. One sect takes issue with the telegraphing of ranged attacks, and another defends it. The developers, the arbitrators in the dispute, have determined through both action and inaction, that both sides have merits. I believe a compromise has already been struck, and that is in the travel time of ranged attacks. Already ranged attacks are telegraphed, especially if they are particularly dangerous. Addons amplify these signals, but some attacks are just too fast to react to, even with more obvious warnings. And without a compelling reason to change that, I'm fairly certain we will remain in this position.Edited by WhiteMage on April 21, 2017 11:08PMThe generally amicable yet sporadically salty magplar that may or may not have 1vXed you in Sotha Sil. Who knows?2 -
Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭The problem with justifying this one way or another is it seems to boil down to "It just doesn't feel right..." or "It's not fair!" There is not actually argument in there, though, so if no action will be taken without a compelling reason, nothing will change. That wouldn't really be an issue if "outside forces" had driven us to this point, but I don't think we even have that. We're just stuck in some arbitrary state of game mechanics with no particular reason to go anywhere or do anything about it. It's not optimized but it can't really become optimized, either.
What we have is a sneak attack mechanic that gives a tangible advantage to the "ganker" on top of the intangible advantage known as the element of surprise, as with any pre-emptive attack. Is this fair? It is not. It is intentionally unfair. What is unfair? Any advantage is an unfairness, but it is slight and arguably is what makes it exciting. The element of surprise is unfair, but no one really wants to (nor could) equalize it. So, that unfairness is written off. Now for the tangible, imposed advantage of a stun, an untelegraphed attack, a guaranteed critical hit, and a critical damage increase. That is unusual with respect to the rest of the game, and so is unfair. As said above, it is intentionally unfair. But by whose intention is it unfair, and what motive do they have to make it unfair?
I would assert that this unfairness was adopted because it is traditional in these games and class archetypes. For no other reason than it has been done before, so much so that it has become an accepted theme with stealth attacks. I believe the developer have no unique reason to include this than it was already the status quo to do so. Is that wrong? No. However, that does render it nearly indefensible.
As for addons, the developers have provided tools for player to use to make UI's for their own benefit and the game supplies hooks that feed information that can be interpreted and transformed for the convenience of the player. Why? Perhaps because it is a traditional thing for developers to do. Addons themselves are used to provide an external benefit, and so have a solid defense which is more than stealth attacks have. So, in order to better have an argument, a proponent of sneak attack advantages would reduce the scope that they have a problem in addons, specifically the telegraphing of attacks with a traveltime. The developers have spoken, in the meantime, and have sided with both sides in turn: sneak attacks do not have an increased critical damage modifier, but addons can no longer detect sneak attacks.
And so here we are. One sect takes issue with the telegraphing of ranged attacks, and another defends it. The developers, the arbitrators in the dispute, have determined through both action and inaction, that both sides have merits. I believe a compromise has already been struck, and that is in the travel time of ranged attacks. Already ranged attacks are telegraphed, especially if they are particularly dangerous. Addons amplify these signals, but some attacks are just too fast to react to, even with more obvious warnings. And without a compelling reason to change that, I'm fairly certain we will remain in this position.
Quoted the whole post, because it's worth it:)
Thank you, my friend, for this thorough analysis. Awesomely written.
Indeed, both 'sects' stances on the issue are completely valid and, unlike stealth attacks, it seems like we'll have a stalemate here.
I really have nothing to add to this post, but /thread:)0 -
Valencer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Then it should be easy for you to come up with an example or 2
When you are solo kiting a zerg on an elevated platform.
When you are in stealth facing oncoming players.
When you are fighting AvA in high numbers.
When you use other players to obstruct your casting animations.
When you use a corner to los.
.... I can keep going if you want.
And all those options involve stealth or a zerg. Is this really what's considered fun PvP nowadays?
That's basically my point. Couldnt care less about what happens to this addon but I have a problem with people who feel the burning desire to condemn its' use because it's exactly this dull playstyle that imo needs to be dealt with by the developers, and not catered to.
But hey, I stopped going to Cyrodiil because it's such a mind-bogglingly dumb zergfest at the moment, so what do I knowEdited by Valencer on April 22, 2017 11:20AM0 -
Cathexis✭✭✭✭✭
✭Then it should be easy for you to come up with an example or 2
When you are solo kiting a zerg on an elevated platform.
When you are in stealth facing oncoming players.
When you are fighting AvA in high numbers.
When you use other players to obstruct your casting animations.
When you use a corner to los.
.... I can keep going if you want.
And all those options involve stealth or a zerg. Is this really what's considered fun PvP nowadays?
That's basically my point. Couldnt care less about what happens to this addon but I have a problem with people who feel the burning desire to condemn its' use because it's exactly this dull playstyle that imo needs to be dealt with by the developers, and not catered to.
But hey, I stopped going to Cyrodiil because it's such a mind-bogglingly dumb zergfest at the moment, so what do I know
Zerg is now the core element to pvp, I don't believe it should be, but thats entirely a separate issue from what this addon is doing.
I'm not for it, but the solution to "I had one leg cut off and now I only have one leg" is not "cut off the other leg."The problem with justifying this one way or another is it seems to boil down to "It just doesn't feel right..." or "It's not fair!" There is not actually argument in there, though, so if no action will be taken without a compelling reason, nothing will change. That wouldn't really be an issue if "outside forces" had driven us to this point, but I don't think we even have that. We're just stuck in some arbitrary state of game mechanics with no particular reason to go anywhere or do anything about it. It's not optimized but it can't really become optimized, either.
What we have is a sneak attack mechanic that gives a tangible advantage to the "ganker" on top of the intangible advantage known as the element of surprise, as with any pre-emptive attack. Is this fair? It is not. It is intentionally unfair. What is unfair? Any advantage is an unfairness, but it is slight and arguably is what makes it exciting. The element of surprise is unfair, but no one really wants to (nor could) equalize it. So, that unfairness is written off. Now for the tangible, imposed advantage of a stun, an untelegraphed attack, a guaranteed critical hit, and a critical damage increase. That is unusual with respect to the rest of the game, and so is unfair. As said above, it is intentionally unfair. But by whose intention is it unfair, and what motive do they have to make it unfair?
I would assert that this unfairness was adopted because it is traditional in these games and class archetypes. For no other reason than it has been done before, so much so that it has become an accepted theme with stealth attacks. I believe the developer have no unique reason to include this than it was already the status quo to do so. Is that wrong? No. However, that does render it nearly indefensible.
As for addons, the developers have provided tools for player to use to make UI's for their own benefit and the game supplies hooks that feed information that can be interpreted and transformed for the convenience of the player. Why? Perhaps because it is a traditional thing for developers to do. Addons themselves are used to provide an external benefit, and so have a solid defense which is more than stealth attacks have. So, in order to better have an argument, a proponent of sneak attack advantages would reduce the scope that they have a problem in addons, specifically the telegraphing of attacks with a traveltime. The developers have spoken, in the meantime, and have sided with both sides in turn: sneak attacks do not have an increased critical damage modifier, but addons can no longer detect sneak attacks.
And so here we are. One sect takes issue with the telegraphing of ranged attacks, and another defends it. The developers, the arbitrators in the dispute, have determined through both action and inaction, that both sides have merits. I believe a compromise has already been struck, and that is in the travel time of ranged attacks. Already ranged attacks are telegraphed, especially if they are particularly dangerous. Addons amplify these signals, but some attacks are just too fast to react to, even with more obvious warnings. And without a compelling reason to change that, I'm fairly certain we will remain in this position.
Quoted the whole post, because it's worth it:)
Thank you, my friend, for this thorough analysis. Awesomely written.
Indeed, both 'sects' stances on the issue are completely valid and, unlike stealth attacks, it seems like we'll have a stalemate here.
I really have nothing to add to this post, but /thread:)
Except that it isn't a compromise at all. You can react faster than a projectile can hit you. Every. Single. Time.
Not only that, but you arent using any situational awareness, or building any passive defense into your build which is the counter to stealth attacks.
I don't agree with that being how it should be, but you are displacing the balance of the core game to your advantage by not having to adhere to the balance, allowing you to engage in tactical maneuvers you otherwise would not be able to. Its not just stats. If I can avoid stealth and range attacks completely, the danger of engaging in close range combat away from defensive positions is drastically reduced. That means you can make offensive plays other players can't because the time you have to engage aggressively is higher. It impacts entire tactical scenarios at a wider scale.Edited by Cathexis on April 22, 2017 4:14PMTome of Alteration Magic I - Reality is an Ancient Dwemer Construct: Everything You Need to Know About FPS
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/520903/tomb-of-fps-alteration-magic-everything-you-need-to-know-about-fps
Tome of Alteration Magic II - The Manual of the Deceiver: A Beginner's Guide to Thieving
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/462509/tome-of-alteration-mastery-ii-the-decievers-manual-thieving-guide-for-new-characters
Ultrawide ESO Adventure Screenshots - 7680 x 1080 Resolution
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/505262/adventures-in-ultra-ultrawide-an-ongoing-series1 -
Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭Except that it isn't a compromise at all. You can react faster than a projectile can hit you. Every. Single. Time.
And that is exactly what skilled combat is supposed to be. That you have to have a chance to 'react faster than a projectile can hit you. Every. Single. Time.' Have a chance. A chance.
Skilled combat ends when you're not given a chance to react. The chance does NOT mean you'll be able to use that chance. It means that you have this option.
Can you react to 100ms warning? I can't. Should you be given a chance to do the impossible and react to 100ms attack? Yes you should. That's how i view skilled combat. You don't have to share my view.Not only that, but you arent using any situational awareness, or building any passive defense into your build which is the counter to stealth attacks.
Yes i do. Having a chance to react still results in failing to react in many cases. There's a bare minimum of passive defense you NEED to have.I don't agree with that being how it should be, but you are displacing the balance of the core game to your advantage by not having to adhere to the balance, allowing you to engage in tactical maneuvers you otherwise would not be able to. Its not just stats. If I can avoid stealth and range attacks completely, the danger of engaging in close range combat away from defensive positions is drastically reduced. That means you can make offensive plays other players can't because the time you have to engage aggressively is higher. It impacts entire tactical scenarios at a wider scale.
Maybe this is not what you meant, but this whole paragraph sounds like it's ONLY ME who obtained this 'advantage'. Is it?:)
And even more, this paragraph yet again grossly overestimates the 'benefits' of running the addon.
As i showed multiple times this part 'avoid stealth and range attacks completely' is not true at all.
'That means you can make offensive plays other players can't because the time you have to engage aggressively is higher.'
This part is true though:) I can even give you the numbers. For med stamblades this means 2 sec on the target instead of 1. Twice as effective, right?Edited by Dorrino on April 23, 2017 5:01AM0 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭You made yourself an addon to bend the gameplay in your favour, to give you an advantage that you wasn't intented to have. At least admit that one reason you created this is because you want to have it easier.
And save yourself this "the games UI makes it hard for me" argument. Everyone had the same ui before you decided what is right and fair and what is not: we had the Ui that the gamemakers gave us, the UI they intented for us to have. And they decided that the audio- and visual clues you get from a started projectile is what it is and not some bright warning on your screen.
IIrc you said in an earlier post that you see your addon as a convenience. People are literally quitting PvP because of your addon. Doesn't it dawn on you that maybe, just maybe, you crossed a line with this? Nobody is quitting bc of death screen additions. But because you're giving yourself an edge in a fight you shouldn't have, recieved soley by running your addon. If you were a responsible addon creator you wouldn't contribute in anything that brings people to leave this game. Your addon has so much to offer, people would still download it if the projectile warning would be discontinued.
I've come to terms that I'd find it best for the game if they lock addons completly from PvP. Inconvenient but still better than this incline in competitiveness, created through addons like this. In game bufftracker is on the way anyway.2 -
Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »You made yourself an addon to bend the gameplay in your favour, to give you an advantage that you wasn't intented to have. At least admit that one reason you created this is because you want to have it easier.
One of the main reasons to create any interface addition is definitely to make some gameplay aspect easier to interact with. I've been telling this exact thing all the time. Ultimately there's you and there's the game's environment. Some people want the environment to be less complex (and thus easier), i want the medium, the link between them, to be clearer. That's it about my motivation.Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »And save yourself this "the games UI makes it hard for me" argument.
And yet again, as is a good tradition of this thread, the whole complex of interaction between players and the game is constantly being dumbed down to my, Miat's, personal problems with the game:) If it was purely my problem, then why those people allegedly keep leaving the game? Because they failed to kill me out of tens of thousands of players in pvp? I don't find it to be a compelling reason.
This thread alone shows scores of people complaining they cannot be effective at what they like to do ONLY because of my addon. Again and again i'm asking what EXACTLY are they trying to do to get denied by the addon and again and again i'm getting only vague responses like 'playing a ranged spec'. The only 'randged spec' that might have slight difficulties in the result of people using the addon is a bow ganker sniping from stealth from 30m away from his target. And even then the only (clear to me) problem they might have is 'damn, this guy just avoids my snipes! Yeah, i'm fine in stealth there, nobody killed me, but WHY CAN'T HE JUST DIE?!'. It's been counter-argued repeatedly that bow ganker playstyle is NOT an example of skillful play. That bow ganker snipes were already quite loud and that in vast majority of encounters skilled targets already avoided most if not all of the snipes.
But i still hear about those people quitting the game:) Why? If any of those could share with me WHAT did he try to do and WHAT was the result and HOW my addon was involved - we would finally be able to start a productive conversation.Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Everyone had the same ui before you decided what is right and fair and what is not: we had the Ui that the gamemakers gave us, the UI they intented for us to have. And they decided that the audio- and visual clues you get from a started projectile is what it is and not some bright warning on your screen.
As it's been shown many many times even in this thread this is incorrect. Devs implemented bare minimum and added API for the players themselves to fill in the gaps. Saying something wasn't dev's interntion BECAUSE they didn't do that themselves is wrong from all sides (including game design philosophy).Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »IIrc you said in an earlier post that you see your addon as a convenience. People are literally quitting PvP because of your addon. Doesn't it dawn on you that maybe, just maybe, you crossed a line with this? Nobody is quitting bc of death screen additions. But because you're giving yourself an edge in a fight you shouldn't have, recieved soley by running your addon.
As i said above let them speak. I'm all ears.Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »If you were a responsible addon creator you wouldn't contribute in anything that brings people to leave this game.
People constantly make decisions. Addon authors can't make them quit nor can make them stay. What addon authors can do is to listen.Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Your addon has so much to offer, people would still download it if the projectile warning would be discontinued.
This is exactly my point. These notifications were such a minor feature that i could add them way back then when the addon showed stealth attacks. I decided not to, because i didn't want to clutter the screen even more. And i added them now to make it up for the loss of stealth attacks warnings:)
Btw i cannot just discontinue any of addon's features. Because i can't force people to update. So if this feature is huge, no matter what i do people will still gonna be using it. If it's a minor one and not worth the efforts then what are we talking about here?:)Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »I've come to terms that I'd find it best for the game if they lock addons completly from PvP. Inconvenient but still better than this incline in competitiveness, created through addons like this. In game bufftracker is on the way anyway.
Well, i kinda disagree. Competitiveness in eso pvp is a myth, otherwise we wouldn't have been discussing gankers problems for so long:)
Edited by Dorrino on April 24, 2017 4:39PM0 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭No, this is not a minor feature. The warning is a huge problem. Just because your addon provides more than that doesn't mean it's minor or neglectable.
Making the interface less complex or adding a timer to let you know when your food runs out is one thing. Giving people the option to filet all their fish at once is a convenience. Giving people the warning of an incoming attack in an environment where players attack other players to succeed is more than that. It's an advantage that we are not supposed to have since an third party software doesn't only make the game easier for you but at the same time more difficult for others. You basically screw other players, even if they don't use your mod. And this is where the fun ends.
If I were in a cynical mood I would ask you why you don't programm something that analyses the players playstyle and advicing you to do specific stuff as it is the most effectiv in that situation? Or code something that tells you when your opponent is out of resources or what's on their bar/ what sets they are wearing. Or giving us a 360 degree field of view?
Would you find that a bit over the top? This is a hypothetical question and it doesn't matter if that would even be possible.
Can you please elaborate further why you think it's wrong to say that the designers intented to only give you a specific field of view and only visual/ audio clues for incoming ranged attacks and leave you vulnerable to what happens in your back? Also, what is the whole point in positioning yourself behind someone or using stealth to engage combat if not for the opponent to be surprised (to an extent, mind the audio clues)?
As for why they are quitting: they are "annoyed" (I'm in lack of a more fitting word) that your addon has direct impact on their game. Like I said, it's not that you drive people out of cyrodiil bc you have a buff timer or an extended death recap. It's the fact that you make it harder for them to do what they have to do. BTW you gave an example yourself who is affected by that. And even if you or I or even the bigger part of the player base (hypotetical again, we have no numbers) don't like 30m stealthed snipe gankers and think it's unskillfull, it's still wrong to push your opinion on them by making their build in their game less viable. You said the it yourself, snipe makes an obvious noise. If you hear that and take approriate actions to avoid or lessen the damage, that is what is called skill. By giving an giant warning on the screen you eliminate the need to listen and promote an even more unskillfull playstyle. And I repeat myself, but you are not in the position to decide what is unskillfull AND take actions to diminish that playstyle. You can always have the opinion to think it's unskillfull etc. But the only group of people that have the right to directly *** up others playstyle in a game people paid money to play are the developers. It's kind of a question of morality.
People told you they are quitting bc of your addon. Bc it ruins their gamestyle. It takes the fun out of the game. People are upset and quiting about nerfs that weaken their style and therefore lessen their fun too. But that is something that comes from the offical game designers. Not from someone of the player community. That is the important difference. They paid for a product, the product will change bc the developers develop their game even further. But not someone who doesn't even work at ZOS.
I disagree with you about the line that people make decisions themselves, it's not the modders that do it for them. By forcing your vision on them you drive them out. They have no way to detract from the impact your addon has. If I should take a guess why they quit is bc they feel "robbed, betrayed, tricked" by you and the addon users bc they can't flee it's impact. And why they don't send you a massage? 7 pages of you not even slightly recognizing it hits non-users in a bad way makes every effort to communicate feel kind of in vain.
Further down your text I can do nothing but agree, you can't force them to update. But I strongly believe that sooner or later you will (need to) update your addon, maybe even because of ui changes. That is the time where you can make the decision to keep this feature or let it go.
As for your last line, we are also debating your warning feature for it's entire lifetime.
I have no issue with the features that only affects the addon users. But the impact is has on players not using it is the problem.
And just to add: I apologize in advance if this reads kinda aggressive or personal. It's not my intention to do so.Edited by Chilly-McFreeze on April 24, 2017 6:04PM0 -
Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »No, this is not a minor feature. The warning is a huge problem. Just because your addon provides more than that doesn't mean it's minor or neglectable.
I do appreciate polite argument and will do my best to address all your points in a respectful manner as well.
To the quoted point - this is what we need to find out. How much of a problem are the notifications and whether their benefits overweight these problems.
First let me address the whole idea of 'dev's intent', because this idea have been persistently used against the addon.
So what is dev's intent? Or, in the broad sense, what is ANY dev's intent as to his creation?
It's not a secret that any developer wants everybody to love what he does. This love brings everything: self-fulfillment, money, guarantee that future is secured. Developers, publishers, shareholders - all want the same thing: Happy Paying Customers (c).
Ideally literally everybody loves what you do and are willing to pay you to use it. Realistically the goal is to have as many Happy Paying Customers are possible. Even more realistically some companies seem to prefer to have just paying customers, without 'happy' prefix, but they didn't end up with that paradigm because it's better, they ended up with it because they failed to provide happiness.
Now back to eso, shall we? In terms of game-design ESO is not an exception. We have huge world with varied and sometimes quite complicated game mechanics.And that all is provided with one single purpose - to obtain a healthy pool of Happy Paying Customers.
This, by the way, is the main reason why the game has quite a bit of grind and lottery. It's not enough for customers to be happy, they need to stay CUSTOMERS. If they were allowed to quickly farm everything they want many of them would not have a reason to stay. So we would have Happy Paying Customers for a rather small period of time.
Now having all that in mind let's venture into pvp. Pvp in any game has the least amount of happy customers. Yes, they keep coming back, yes they might buy something from your crown store from time to time, but they, as a mass, are not really happy. So in pvp dev goal is not to make everybody happy, it's impossible. Instead, the goal becomes to reduce their frustration as much as possible. if you want to find pvp design paradigm - that would be to provide as much instant gratification with minimum amount of frustration to as many people as possible.
This is why some specifics of pvp design, like stealthed attacks or anim canceling or perma blocks or non-blockable and non-dodgable spells are not really important and never were the goal of pvp design. Pvp design cares only about achieving less frustration with high attractiveness of pvp environment.
There's a reason why stealthed attacks are even allowed in this game - because this enables a very effective and (this is the key) accessible pvp playstyle. People don't go ganking because it's the most complicated or rewarding activity. People go ganking because ganking has one of the highest reward-to-risk ratio, especially for a new player. Mind you, there is quite a bit of great players playing ganking specs, but those players are effective at anything. When ganking becomes weaker they will happily move to some other playstyle. They can play anything at a very high level.
So, given all that, we can finally discuss my addon:)
Notifications in my addon are a blessing and a curse.
They are awesome because they allow for more transparent, more accessible, more informative combat - the quality both new and veteran players enjoy equally. They provide the information that allows the player to perform more effective DEFENSE against most things that can really hurt in pvp. Some specs are less reliant on active defense - this is mostly tanks and heal-tanks (who don't care) and gankers (who are invisible, thus possessing the most effective defense you can find in the game). With the upcoming changes we will probably see less tanks, but more gankers, because people still want to be effective with the least amount of effort put in this task, thus the amount of people who could really benefit from the notifications will most likely stay the same.
On the other hand the notifications are a curse for the same exact reason they are a blessing:) People are having harder time to actually kill other people. While this is minuscule and largely irrelevant for the great players out there, the rest of the playerbase might experience more frustration because of ineffectiveness of their previously effective strategies. And while great players can just adapt and ignore the addon, some others don't have this luxury and will be stuck with a playstyle that some guy on the internet made less rewarding and thus less fun. And as you can see they don't miss the chance to inform me about their predicament:)
So the real question we have here is whether less frustration with pvp due to a higher defense potential provided by the notifications and available to everybody (for free) is worth the increased frustration of some part of the player base due to effective reduction of their offence?
If we set aside the topic of encouraging unskillful and/or unfair play, the answer is not really clear to me. I'm quite sure the answer is not clear to zos as well. Unlike stealthed attacks case when zos quite promptly (for zos) decided that the amount of frustration of a noticeable part of the playerbase is too high.
And so here we are.
Now let me answer some of your points not covered here:"Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »You basically screw other players, even if they don't use your mod. And this is where the fun ends.
Since we're talking about a chance of better defense only, the need to use the addon is not really that high. Many people exhibit similar pvp performance with and without the addon, many others (as outlined above) don't get noticeable benefits from it due to their spec/playstyle. Thus we're left with some people who enjoy the game more with the addon (like myself) and, as i showed above, with some people being frustrated because their offense feels weaker. But generally having worse offense is better than having worse defense, since in the first case you might fail an attack, but are otherwise fine. In the second case you die."Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »If I were in a cynical mood I would ask you why you don't programm something that analyses the players playstyle and advicing you to do specific stuff as it is the most effectiv in that situation?
I'd love to do something like this. This shouldn't come as a surprise though:)"Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Or code something that tells you when your opponent is out of resources or what's on their bar/ what sets they are wearing.
I seriously considered everything in this sentence:) Resources, unfortunately, are not possible to reliable estimate. Some skills on their bars and some sets that they are wearing are ALREADY tracked in the addon for spec detection purposes:P"Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Or giving us a 360 degree field of view?
Wouldn't work due to limitation of human perception. And yet again - unfortunately."Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Would you find that a bit over the top? This is a hypothetical question and it doesn't matter if that would even be possible.
No i wouldn't. As i said many times if you're capable of perceiving the information and you find it useful - it should be provided to you. This is my personal preference though:)"Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Can you please elaborate further why you think it's wrong to say that the designers intented to only give you a specific field of view and only visual/ audio clues for incoming ranged attacks and leave you vulnerable to what happens in your back?
I think i already did that above. To reiterate - game design doesn't really care about all this, if players would be happy game design would happily provide anything they like.
To add to this - the design provided a basic ui and an ability to further tailor it to personal needs. Everything (literally everything) that is provided in the API carries the same degree of the intention as the vanilla interface. It was a conscious choice to make those things available to players should they have a need and/or desire for that. In this aspect API is literally the same as the vanilla ui."Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Also, what is the whole point in positioning yourself behind someone or using stealth to engage combat if not for the opponent to be surprised (to an extent, mind the audio clues)?
To have a better chance to perform an effective attack than from the front. This should be quite obvious:) For some reason (i have my suspicions here) some players expect this chance to be enormous. I think we need to ask them why they have these expectations:)"Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »It's kind of a question of morality.
There's a reason why people who complain above the addon breaking their playstyle almost never give specifics about the said playstyle:) The blade of morality has both edges. They know perfectly well that the things my addon makes harder to do, for the most part are unfair and thus immoral. If they don't describe their playstyles they feel they can play the card that the addon is cheaty, unfair and bad. But if they had to actually describe it we would have an unfair playstyle which was reduced in effectiveness by an unfair addon and thus harmony^_^"Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »People told you they are quitting bc of your addon. Bc it ruins their gamestyle. It takes the fun out of the game. People are upset and quiting about nerfs that weaken their style and therefore lessen their fun too. But that is something that comes from the offical game designers. Not from someone of the player community. That is the important difference. They paid for a product, the product will change bc the developers develop their game even further. But not someone who doesn't even work at ZOS.
But addons can't change the product. The addons are allowed to have ZERO impact on game mechanics. What is always overlooked in this type of argument that NOTHING has been changed about the game. The only thing that is different is players awareness."Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »I disagree with you about the line that people make decisions themselves, it's not the modders that do it for them. By forcing your vision on them you drive them out. They have no way to detract from the impact your addon has. If I should take a guess why they quit is bc they feel "robbed, betrayed, tricked" by you and the addon users bc they can't flee it's impact. And why they don't send you a massage? 7 pages of you not even slightly recognizing it hits non-users in a bad way makes every effort to communicate feel kind of in vain.
Since most of this was covered above i have a question - how exactly those people KNOW that their targets are using my addon?:) Can it be, that for the most part, it's the same type of witch-hunting as alleged prevalence of macros and cheats in pvp?"Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Further down your text I can do nothing but agree, you can't force them to update. But I strongly believe that sooner or later you will (need to) update your addon, maybe even because of ui changes. That is the time where you can make the decision to keep this feature or let it go.
This still doesn't work like this. If this feature is indeed that awesome somebody else would make it work again. The source-code is there. It's really easy to do."Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »And just to add: I apologize in advance if this reads kinda aggressive or personal. It's not my intention to do so.
And as i said right at the start of my response i truly appreciate this. Thank you.
Edited by Dorrino on April 25, 2017 11:54PM0 -
Darnathian✭✭✭✭✭
✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »No, this is not a minor feature. The warning is a huge problem. Just because your addon provides more than that doesn't mean it's minor or neglectable.
I do appreciate polite argument and will do my best to address all your points in a respectful manner as well.
To the quoted point - this is what we need to find out. How much of a problem are the notifications and whether their benefits overweight these problems.
First let me address the whole idea of 'dev's intent', because this idea have been persistently used against the addon.
So what is dev's intent? Or, in the broad sense, what is ANY dev's intent as to his creation?
It's not a secret that any developer wants everybody to love what he does. This love brings everything: self-fulfillment, money, guarantee that future is secured. Developers, publishers, shareholders - all want the same thing: Happy Paying Customers (c).
Ideally literally everybody loves what you do and are willing to pay you to use it. Realistically the goal is to have as many Happy Paying Customers are possible. Even more realistically some companies seem to prefer to have just paying customers, without 'happy' prefix, but they didn't end up with that paradigm because it's better, they ended up with it because they failed to provide happiness.
Now back to eso, shall we? In terms of game-design ESO is not an exception. We have huge world with varied and sometimes quite complicated game mechanics.And that all is provided with one single purpose - to obtain a healthy pool of Happy Paying Customers.
This, by the way, is the main reason why the game has quite a bit of grind and lottery. It's not enough for customers to be happy, they need to stay CUSTOMERS. If they were allowed to quickly farm everything they want many of them would not have a reason to stay. So we would have Happy Paying Customers for a rather small period of time.
Now having all that in mind let's venture into pvp. Pvp in any game has the least amount of happy customers. Yes, they keep coming back, yes they might buy something from your crown store from time to time, but they, as a mass, are not really happy. So in pvp dev goal is not to make everybody happy, it's impossible. Instead, the goal becomes to reduce their frustration as much as possible. if you want to find pvp design paradigm - that would be to provide as much instant gratification with minimum amount of frustration to as many people as possible.
This is why some specifics of pvp design, like stealthed attacks or anim canceling or perma blocks or non-blockable and non-dodgable spells are not really important and never were the goal of pvp design. Pvp design cares only about achieving less frustration with high attractiveness of pvp environment.
There's a reason why stealthed attacks are even allowed in this game - because this enables a very effective and (this is the key) accessible pvp playstyle. People don't go ganking because it's the most complicated or rewarding activity. People go ganking because ganking has one of the highest reward-to-risk ratio, especially for a new player. Mind you, there is quite a bit of great players playing ganking specs, but those players are effective at anything. When ganking becomes weaker they will happily move to some other playstyle. They can play anything at a very high level.
So, given all that, we can finally discuss my addon:)
Notifications in my addon are a blessing and a curse.
They are awesome because they allow for more transparent, more accessible, more informative combat - the quality both new and veteran players enjoy equally. They provide the information that allows the player to perform more effective DEFENSE against most things that can really hurt in pvp. Some specs are less reliant on active defense - this is mostly tanks and heal-tanks (who don't care) and gankers (who are invisible, thus possessing the most effective defense you can find in the game). With the upcoming changes we will probably see less tanks, but more gankers, because people still want to be effective with the least amount of effort put in this task, thus the amount of people who could really benefit from the notifications will most likely stay the same.
On the other hand the notifications are a curse for the same exact reason they are a blessing:) People are having harder time to actually kill other people. While this is minuscule and largely irrelevant for the great players out there, the rest of the playerbase might experience more frustration because of ineffectiveness of their previously effective strategies. And while great players can just adapt and ignore the addon, some others don't have this luxury and will be stuck with a playstyle that some guy on the internet made less rewarding and thus less fun. And as you can see they don't miss the chance to inform me about their predicament:)
So the real question we have here is whether less frustration with pvp due to a higher defense potential provided by the notifications and available to everybody (for free) is worth the increased frustration of some part of the player base due to effective reduction of their offence?
If we set aside the topic of encouraging unskillful and/or unfair play, the answer is not really clear to me. I'm quite sure the answer is not clear to zos as well. Unlike stealthed attacks case when zos quite promptly (for zos) decided that the amount of frustration of a noticeable part of the playerbase is too high.
And so here we are.
Now let me answer some of your points not covered here:"Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »You basically screw other players, even if they don't use your mod. And this is where the fun ends.
Since we're talking about a chance of better defense only the need to use the addon is not really that high. Many people exhibit similar pvp performance with and without the addon, many others (as outlined above) don't get noticeable benefits from it due to their spec/playstyle. Thus we're left with some people who enjoy the game more with the addon (like myself) and, as i showed above, with some people being frustrated because their offense feels weaker. But generally having worse offense is better than having worse defense, since in the first case you might fail an attack, but are otherwise fine. In the second case you die."Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »If I were in a cynical mood I would ask you why you don't programm something that analyses the players playstyle and advicing you to do specific stuff as it is the most effectiv in that situation?
I'd love to do something like this. This shouldn't come as a surprise though:)"Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Or code something that tells you when your opponent is out of resources or what's on their bar/ what sets they are wearing.
I seriously considered everything in this sentence:) Resources unfortunately is not possible to reliable estimate. Some skills on their bars and some sets that they are wearing are ALREADY tracked in the addon for spec detection purposes:P"Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Or giving us a 360 degree field of view?
Wouldn't work due to limitation of human perception. And yet again - unfortunately."Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Would you find that a bit over the top? This is a hypothetical question and it doesn't matter if that would even be possible.
No i wouldn't. As i said many times if you're capable of perceiving the information and you find it useful - it should be provided to you. This is my personal preference though:)"Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Can you please elaborate further why you think it's wrong to say that the designers intented to only give you a specific field of view and only visual/ audio clues for incoming ranged attacks and leave you vulnerable to what happens in your back?
I think i already did that above. To reiterate - game design doesn't really care about all this, if players would be happy game design would happily provide anything they like.
To add to this - the design provided a basic ui and an ability to further tailor it to personal needs. Everything (literally everything) that is provided in the API carries the same degree of the intention as the vanilla interface. It was a conscious choice to make those things available to players should they have a need and/or desire for that. In this aspect API is literally the same as the vanilla ui."Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Also, what is the whole point in positioning yourself behind someone or using stealth to engage combat if not for the opponent to be surprised (to an extent, mind the audio clues)?
To have a better chance to perform an effective attack than from the front. This should be quite obvious:) For some reason (i have my suspicions here) some players expect this chance to be enormous. I think we need to ask them why they have these expectations:)"Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »It's kind of a question of morality.
There's a reason why people who complain above the addon breaking their playstyle almost never give specifics about the said playstyle:) The blade of morality has both edges. They know perfectly well that the things my addon makes harder to do, for the most part are unfair and thus immoral. If they don't describe their playstyles they feel they can play the card that the addon is cheaty, unfair and bad. But if they had to actually describe it we would have an unfair playstyle which was reduced in effectiveness by an unfair addon and thus harmony^_^"Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »People told you they are quitting bc of your addon. Bc it ruins their gamestyle. It takes the fun out of the game. People are upset and quiting about nerfs that weaken their style and therefore lessen their fun too. But that is something that comes from the offical game designers. Not from someone of the player community. That is the important difference. They paid for a product, the product will change bc the developers develop their game even further. But not someone who doesn't even work at ZOS.
But addons can't change the product. The addons are allowed to have ZERO impact on game mechanics. What is always overlooked in this type of argument that NOTHING has been changed about the game. The only thing that is different is players awareness."Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »I disagree with you about the line that people make decisions themselves, it's not the modders that do it for them. By forcing your vision on them you drive them out. They have no way to detract from the impact your addon has. If I should take a guess why they quit is bc they feel "robbed, betrayed, tricked" by you and the addon users bc they can't flee it's impact. And why they don't send you a massage? 7 pages of you not even slightly recognizing it hits non-users in a bad way makes every effort to communicate feel kind of in vain.
Since most of this was covered above i have a question - how exactly those people KNOW that their targets are using my addon?:) Can it be, that for the most part, it's the same type of witch-hunting as alleged prevalence of macros and cheats in pvp?"Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Further down your text I can do nothing but agree, you can't force them to update. But I strongly believe that sooner or later you will (need to) update your addon, maybe even because of ui changes. That is the time where you can make the decision to keep this feature or let it go.
This still doesn't work like this. If this feature is indeed that awesome somebody else would make it work again. The source-code is there. It's really easy to do."Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »And just to add: I apologize in advance if this reads kinda aggressive or personal. It's not my intention to do so.
And as i said right at the start of my response i truly appreciate this. Thank you.
Just stop. You make me vomit in my mouth. You are not a developer. FACT. This add on ruins a playstyle that paying customers like. FACT. Thats all that matters. Zos. Change you api again.0 -
killimandrosb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭...not to mention he deliberately overlooks any examples on how this addon ruins eg. my playstyle, whitout me being what he tries to target (ranged gankers) and at the same time rewards zergs who now have ranged target immunity. I already gave in at least 3 posts a good accountance for how it ruined (past tense since I dont play anymore) my team of zergbusters playstyle to the point continuing to weaken a guild PBAoE group is now not only futile, its stupid. There are guild groups, and also PUG zergs where the majority (in guild groups 100%) runs this addon. Reason I know this is because since Miats was introduced, the effectiveness has gone to close to 0%. It was worse when they knew exactly where we were and our stats (always targeting the weakest player, even if said player was STEALTHED...).
So what happened here for us to quit? Our playstyle consisted of following foremost PUG zergs and PBAoE operated groups. It never involved ganking. I personally also always partook in keep defences and sieges on the offence. I am only a ranged damage dealer, and buffer. I am not specced or geared for melee bursts. This addon makes my playstyle obsolete. I can not play the way I like it anymore (and again I dont gank...which is the failure in concept you have, that all and the best players gank...)
The solution would be to respecc into melee burst gank style, or PBAoE and run bomb team. Effectively you are forcing me into a playstyle which is BOTH unwanted by a huge part of the community, and also something I do not enjoy. Continue claiming noone explained or only vaguely how the addon effects or ruins their playstyle. Its a lie on your side, but to be expected following your posts which always ignores anything that doesnt fit your won playstyle completely. You are not her to help the community. You are here to ruin it. You are here to make sure what your own abilities can not handle must be excluded.0 -
Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »...not to mention he deliberately overlooks any examples on how this addon ruins eg. my playstyle, whitout me being what he tries to target (ranged gankers)
The addon doesn't target any playstyle specifically. Instead it raises players awareness about a wide range of attack directed at them. Melee and ranged alike.
The addon was never meant to be a balancing tool. Addon's can't do that. The addon was meant as a tool to make the interface clearer and therefore to promote educated (and thus skillful) playstyles.killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »and at the same time rewards zergs who now have ranged target immunity.
Zergs always had ranged target immunity due to sheer amount of heals a zerg possesses. Yes, sometimes a smaller group is capable to pick larger zerg members one by one, but in organized good ballgroup that was always irrelevant, since other group members could always res them.killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »I already gave in at least 3 posts a good accountance for how it ruined (past tense since I dont play anymore) my team of zergbusters playstyle to the point continuing to weaken a guild PBAoE group is now not only futile, its stupid.
And i've read them. I don't want to sound disrespectful, but what you described there doesn't exist in this game. Unless you meant something very peculiar and particular like chasing a zerg with another zerg and picking those who left behind. My addon changes nothing there.killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »There are guild groups, and also PUG zergs where the majority (in guild groups 100%) runs this addon. Reason I know this is because since Miats was introduced, the effectiveness has gone to close to 0%. It was worse when they knew exactly where we were and our stats (always targeting the weakest player, even if said player was STEALTHED...).
Pug zergs can be killed by solo or 2-3 small group of good players. I'm not sure what did my addon change there.killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »So what happened here for us to quit? Our playstyle consisted of following foremost PUG zergs and PBAoE operated groups. It never involved ganking. I personally also always partook in keep defences and sieges on the offence. I am only a ranged damage dealer, and buffer. I am not specced or geared for melee bursts. This addon makes my playstyle obsolete. I can not play the way I like it anymore (and again I dont gank...which is the failure in concept you have, that all and the best players gank...)
Since you're 'a ranged damage dealer, and buffer' why do you rely on your targets to be oblivious about your attacks? You can still spam snipe from the walls and kill a bunch of people. What exactly is the difference?killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »You are not her to help the community. You are here to ruin it. You are here to make sure what your own abilities can not handle must be excluded.
Thank you for your kind words, but i'm still not quite sure what exactly your playstyle does. I'm sorry about that.Edited by Dorrino on April 26, 2017 4:16AM0 -
kadar✭✭✭✭✭
✭I've been playing my mNB lately. Typical Destro/Resto, you know.
It gets really old seeing, forgive my language, scrubs just auto dodge my Destro medium/heavy attacks. Players who have no business dodging them. I expect and even applaud (quietly) when skilled players see and react to my attacks, but... distracted scrubs?
1 -
Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭The_Outsider wrote: »I've been playing my mNB lately. Typical Destro/Resto, you know.
It gets really old seeing, forgive my language, scrubs just auto dodge my Destro medium/heavy attacks. Players who have no business dodging them. I expect and even applaud (quietly) when skilled players see and react to my attacks, but... distracted scrubs?
There's a thing about 'scrubs'. It doesn't matter what they do - they still gonna die.
I feel for them though and i love when they dodge my ambush. If that's because my addon - i'm proud and happy for them.
That's just me though.Edited by Dorrino on April 26, 2017 4:14AM0 -
kadar✭✭✭✭✭
✭
From your perspective, totally. Every time someone avoids your burst it's like a pat on the back-- "woot, addon is working." And with your stamblade you can just begin your burst combo all over again as soon as their roll finishes-- not a big deal. That's my usual experience on my Stam NB as well.The_Outsider wrote: »I've been playing my mNB lately. Typical Destro/Resto, you know.
It gets really old seeing, forgive my language, scrubs just auto dodge my Destro medium/heavy attacks. Players who have no business dodging them. I expect and even applaud (quietly) when skilled players see and react to my attacks, but... distracted scrubs?
There's a thing about 'scrubs'. It doesn't matter what they do - they still gonna die.
I feel for them though and i love when they dodge my ambush. If that's because my addon - i'm proud and happy for them.
That's just me though.
It's a bit different on a ranged build like a mNB. Each time the scrub dodges the burst they would not have otherwise been able to, all we can do is sigh and try again.
0 -
kadar✭✭✭✭✭
✭I understand that there are logical hoops to jumped through and circles we can argue around and round and round. Especially about what should or should not be able to be known, ect ect... I'm tired of that. For me it just comes down to being un-fun. When I have to wonder going into a 1v1 or small scale fight if my opponant(s) is running Miat's, that's not fun. I know some other ranged or projectile based folks here can relate to that.0 -
Cathexis✭✭✭✭✭
✭The_Outsider wrote: »I've been playing my mNB lately. Typical Destro/Resto, you know.
It gets really old seeing, forgive my language, scrubs just auto dodge my Destrproxyo medium/heavy attacks. Players who have no business dodging them. I expect and even applaud (quietly) when skilled players see and react to my attacks, but... distracted scrubs?
There's a thing about 'scrubs'. It doesn't matter what they do - they still gonna die.
I feel for them though and i love when they dodge my ambush. If that's because my addon - i'm proud and happy for them.
That's just me though.
No, they don't, because the concept of what is a scrub is inherently social and also it fluctuates dramatically in terms of the meta, how and what a player is playing, and your perception based on your own capacity.
You don't do *** for scrubs, scrubs improve their ability by playing, period. This addon just removes any need to improve.
You shouldn't be proud of what you are doing at all and you don't get to take credit for that, you are not the teacher of all players, and people need to stop feeding this guys ego trip because he is flat out spinning falsehoods to justify creating an advantage for himself and others who feel they are too lazy to learn to play properly and deserve to be better. If you buy into this ***, you need to think about the idea that in that sentence, he is taking credit for your improvement as a player. It's nothing about you, he doesn't care about you even remotely, he doesn't care about your game play experience because he is perfectly fine with flattening it to a 2 dimensional press X to win.
Be better for yourself, instead of deluding yourself. Supporting this *** just pollutes the game.
Edited by Cathexis on April 26, 2017 5:20AMTome of Alteration Magic I - Reality is an Ancient Dwemer Construct: Everything You Need to Know About FPS
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/520903/tomb-of-fps-alteration-magic-everything-you-need-to-know-about-fps
Tome of Alteration Magic II - The Manual of the Deceiver: A Beginner's Guide to Thieving
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/462509/tome-of-alteration-mastery-ii-the-decievers-manual-thieving-guide-for-new-characters
Ultrawide ESO Adventure Screenshots - 7680 x 1080 Resolution
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/505262/adventures-in-ultra-ultrawide-an-ongoing-series2 -
Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭The_Outsider wrote: »I understand that there are logical hoops to jumped through and circles we can argue around and round and round. Especially about what should or should not be able to be known, ect ect... I'm tired of that. For me it just comes down to being un-fun. When I have to wonder going into a 1v1 or small scale fight if my opponant(s) is running Miat's, that's not fun. I know some other ranged or projectile based folks here can relate to that.
I see your point and i am sorry that i involuntary made some aspects of the game less fun for you. I do have the rationale behind it all (as you have seen), but indeed even if you understand it it doesn't have to help you bring that very specific fun back to you.
Thus i AM sorry, even though i'd do it again given a chance.No, they don't, because the concept of what is a scrub is inherently social and also it fluctuates dramatically in terms of the meta, how a player is playing, and your perception based on your own capacity.
Yep, that's why i put 'quotation marks' around it. I don't consider anybody playing the game a scrub/noob or any other derogatory term (besides some human beings whose moral qualities are demonstrably lacking, that's a pet peeve of mine).You don't do *** for scrubs, scrubs improve their ability by playing, period. This addon just removes any need to improve.
You shouldn't be proud of what you are doing at all and you don't get to take credit for that, you are not the teacher of all players, and people need to stop feeding this guys ego trip because he is flat out spinning falsehoods to justify creating an advantage for himself and others who feel they are too lazy to learn to play properly and deserve to be better. If you buy into this ***, you need to think about the idea that in that sentence, he is taking credit for your improvement as a player. It's nothing about you, he doesn't care about you even remotely, he doesn't care about your game play experience because he is perfectly fine with flattening it to a 2 dimensional press X to win.
Be better for yourself, instead of deluding yourself. Supporting this *** just pollutes the game.
This is really unfortunate that you feel such strong emotions towards some guy on the internet and i'm sorry you need to express them in this way.
In this thread i discuss my addon with those who want to discuss it. I truly regret that you find my manners offending and/or patronizing.
Having all that in mind i still disagree with your assertions about my addon and myself as a person. Sorry about that.Edited by Dorrino on April 26, 2017 5:32AM0 -
Cathexis✭✭✭✭✭
✭The_Outsider wrote: »I understand that there are logical hoops to jumped through and circles we can argue around and round and round. Especially about what should or should not be able to be known, ect ect... I'm tired of that. For me it just comes down to being un-fun. When I have to wonder going into a 1v1 or small scale fight if my opponant(s) is running Miat's, that's not fun. I know some other ranged or projectile based folks here can relate to that.
I see your point and i am sorry that i involuntary made some aspects of the game less fun for you. I do have the rationale behind it all (as you have seen), but indeed even if you understand it it doesn't have to help you bring that very specific fun back to you.
Thus i AM sorry, even though i'd do it again given a chance.No, they don't, because the concept of what is a scrub is inherently social and also it fluctuates dramatically in terms of the meta, how a player is playing, and your perception based on your own capacity.
Yep, that's why i put 'quotation marks' around it. I don't consider anybody playing the game a scrub/noob or any other derogatory term (besides some human beings whose moral qualities are demonstrably lacking, that's a pet peeve of mine).You don't do *** for scrubs, scrubs improve their ability by playing, period. This addon just removes any need to improve.
You shouldn't be proud of what you are doing at all and you don't get to take credit for that, you are not the teacher of all players, and people need to stop feeding this guys ego trip because he is flat out spinning falsehoods to justify creating an advantage for himself and others who feel they are too lazy to learn to play properly and deserve to be better. If you buy into this ***, you need to think about the idea that in that sentence, he is taking credit for your improvement as a player. It's nothing about you, he doesn't care about you even remotely, he doesn't care about your game play experience because he is perfectly fine with flattening it to a 2 dimensional press X to win.
Be better for yourself, instead of deluding yourself. Supporting this *** just pollutes the game.
This is really unfortunate that you feel such strong emotions towards some guy on the internet and i'm sorry you need to express them in this way.
In this thread i discuss my addon with those who want to discuss it. I truly regret that you find my manners offending and/or patronizing.
Having all that in mind i still disagree with your assertions about my addon and myself as a person. Sorry about that.
Well it is patronizing, you act like you made it possible for other players to play, when they are perfectly capable if they just put in some time to learn.
I'm willing to bet even if you look at the addon it farms metadata about the players who are running it, and that that is the actual intent.Edited by Cathexis on April 26, 2017 5:39AMTome of Alteration Magic I - Reality is an Ancient Dwemer Construct: Everything You Need to Know About FPS
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/520903/tomb-of-fps-alteration-magic-everything-you-need-to-know-about-fps
Tome of Alteration Magic II - The Manual of the Deceiver: A Beginner's Guide to Thieving
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/462509/tome-of-alteration-mastery-ii-the-decievers-manual-thieving-guide-for-new-characters
Ultrawide ESO Adventure Screenshots - 7680 x 1080 Resolution
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/505262/adventures-in-ultra-ultrawide-an-ongoing-series0 -
Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭Well it is patronizing, you act like you made it possible for other players to play, when they are perfectly capable if they just put in some time to learn.
And again i'm sorry if anything that i've said could have made this impression. This is not how i see the addon and this is way out of reach for addons to do.I'm willing to bet even if you look at the addon it farms metadata about the players who are running it, and that that is the actual intent.
Even if it was possible i don't see a point to do such a thing.
0 -
Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭The_Outsider wrote: »Every time someone avoids your burst it's like a pat on the back-- "woot, addon is working."
I actually missed that part in my response and it's too important to skip.
No. Not "woot, addon is working." . The addon cannot dodge at the right moment. The players managed to notice the danger in time and found a proper response. I'm happy for them to be able to DO that.0 -
Having died at the hands of Miat many times, including last night, I can only salute him. I know when I see him that I will have a greater challenge and I like that. I get better by playing in hard mode and that is what I consider his add on. So, please use the add on all you want. Maybe add a feature that shows a Miat add on user in the area.
Now can you add a feature that identifies the macro spammers by their ability to mash keys faster than any human possible? I would like to track those that can hit you with multiple heavy attacks and spells before you can even hit one key. Weaving for some players is truely amazing. I am certain I will learn more the more I insta-die from them.0 -
Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭Having died at the hands of Miat many times, including last night, I can only salute him. I know when I see him that I will have a greater challenge and I like that.
Thank you:)Maybe add a feature that shows a Miat add on user in the area.
Not really possible to do.Now can you add a feature that identifies the macro spammers by their ability to mash keys faster than any human possible?
Doesn't work like this:( Sometimes i get ~5 (five) milliseconds between light attack and surprise attack myself. No macros. I don't see a way to define 'faster than any human possible' in terms of button presses.I would like to track those that can hit you with multiple heavy attacks and spells before you can even hit one key.
This is not possible with or without macros. Heavy attacks share gcd of 1 sec with other heavy/light attacks and skills.0 -
Kas✭✭✭✭✭There are several problems with the add-on API. Some just do not make sense at all.
Imho the most extreme example is that you can queue for any campaign. This has been done with script calls for some time and now there is even an add-on that lets you do this.
Meanwhile ZOS implements restrictions and costs for changing guest campaigns... There is ZERO use in having set a guest campaign apart from being able to queue there. If the Add-on API allows you to queue for any campaign, this just contradicts the changes made elsewhere.
I can see how it may be worth discussing if players should or shouldn't be able to queue for any campaign. However, I cannot see any valid reason why the game's UI should explicitly forbid it but the Add-on API allows it.
For exactly this reason, I think the Add-on API is still WAAAAY to powerful (or at least disconnected from the core game's design). The next worst thing is raid notifier for PvE which informs you MUCH earlier about some crucial mechanics (e.g.who is the target of the negate in MOL) that any visual indicator in the game would possibly do.
Only after that, there's stuff like Miat's PvP Alerts (which gives you a huge advantage but much of that could be seen with perfect camera movement and eyes - not all though, e.g. knowing you're the target of a channel cast). And I am glad it's making lots of the good API things public and I currently use it - to not be at a disadvantage. That said, it's also an add-on that uses parts of the API that are way too strong and partially just contradict game design.
The solution can never be to ban those add-on and if they should target such add-ons, Miat's only somewhere midway through the list of OP stuff. The solution has to be that ZOS have another closer look at ALL parts of the API and evaluate if those things are in line with the core game (e.g. buffs, debuffs, etc: the game tells you about them anyway but, so far, puts them in useless places or with shady visual indicators. add ons can help to display them more prominently. fine!) or if they aren't (seriously, I just cannot get over that guest campaign thing ^^)Edited by Kas on April 27, 2017 10:39AM@bbu - AD/EU
Kasiia - Templar (AR46)
Kasiir Aberion - Sorc (AR38)
Dr Kastafari - Warden (~AR31)
+ many others0 -
Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭For exactly this reason, I think the Add-on API is still WAAAAY to powerful (or at least disconnected from the core game's design). The next worst thing is raid notifier for PvE which informs you MUCH earlier about some crucial mechanics (e.g.who is the target of the negate in MOL) that any visual indicator in the game would possibly do.
Unlike your first example this is not a contradiction between API and default interface.And I am glad it's making lots of the good API things public and I currently use it - to not be at a disadvantage.
I'm curious, how can you be in a disadvantage by not using the addon? Could you describe it to me please?That said, it's also an add-on that uses parts of the API that are way too strong and partially just contradict game design.
Let's discuss which parts do that:)0