Do we really represent the players?

OldGamerESO · April 2017

We don't know how many people play ESO, and we aren't likely ever to know. They have added 1.6 million accounts since last summer and that had sold 8 million before that. The reviews are good and all the platforms sell well. The game is very popular. It is very likely that the developers really don't value our feedback all that much, other than to find outright bugs in PTS. Would it be wrong to assume that most of their customers just don't care *that* much about the minutia of the game like forum warriors do? They don't have "rotations" or have ever done a DPS parse. They have never looked up builds, checked a fan site or googled "what is the best morph for X". They just log in and do Thieves guild quests, or farm skyshards, or trade, or chat or do a daily normal. They spend 8 hours trying on different colors in their armor. Many have no addons and would not know the first place to look to find them. Many would never consider it odd to ask for help in their guild to help kill a quest "boss". I am talking about a "boss" that dies in 2.5 seconds to any of our min/maxed gear-builds. I meet people in the game who have been playing more than a year and are like level 35, have no CP and are extremely HAPPY with the game.

We are the outliers, we are are the minority. It is the same with every online game. If you ever followed the forums of an online game like EverQuest, DaoC or WoW you will know that every time the company made sweeping changes the forums would erupt with rage and dire threats of how this would be the end of the game. And yet it was always a tempest in a teapot. The changes would be made, the sales numbers would go up and the forum warriors would be left nashing their teeth and nursing their rage.

I keep coming back to this: ESO developers probably read all these whine and rage infested posts and file them under "Hardmode Trials" feedback. Because they can probably rightly conclude that there is little to no content other than HM Trials that will really suffer from any of the proposed changes. You don't need major mending to do a dolman, 4-man vet dungeon or normal trial. You don't need much sustain to do a public dungeon or world boss. You don't need max dps to complete quests. 99.99 percent of the player base don't even know these changes are coming and won't know until the patch. They won't read the patch notes and will think of the CP changes as free respsec and will barely notice loss of sustain, etc. I took some straw polls in my guilds and people mention the Warden class as sounding interesting and are looking forward to the expansion, but out of five full guilds not one person said they had ever been here to the forums.

So yes, I think we should continue to keep up the good work and push for sane, reasonable changes that benefit the game. Just don't be surprised when our rage whines fall on deaf ears.

flguy147ub17_ESO · April 2017

I don't think the majorly of players ever visit the forums. They buy the game, log in and play when they get a chance. They really don't know much about best in slot or min maxing.

For example, I am was in a dungeon the other day and I have been getting some weird bug where I literally can't weave and am stuck just light attacking or just using abilities. So I ask in the group and there is a 400 and 500 CP player in the voice chat, I asked if they ever get the bug where they can't weave at all. Neither person had any clue what weaving actually was and has never heard of weaving before. I believe that is more the typical ESO player than what we see on the forums.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · April 2017

The forums are mostly an echo chamber of really rabid fans that only encompass an extremely small minority of people. This is no different that people who only get their news from 1 station or people who are extremely into politics.

If you're only inundated with 1 set of extremely radical opinions it's easy to think that everyone thinks that way. Then, when you are challenged by someone with an opposing viewpoint it's easy to think the other person is crazy. The only difference is that unlike politics our echo chamber has the rabid fans of both sides.

waterfairy · April 2017

I'm the average player (not casaual but not elite) so I'm one of the majority of players in this game who aren't happy with these changes...my friends share my feelings and many in my guilds as well. On the patch note day nobody in my guild was talking about Morrowind and the things being added, they were only talking about the things being taken away and how it will kill the game for us.

Had they simply separated pve and pvp, making these changes to pvp only, then most people would be ok as most people don't set foot in cyrodiil.

Vapirko · April 2017

Completely true I'm sure. However! I think that ZOS has been presented with ideas from people who really understand this game that would surely satisfy most people. But they really don't bother. I'll just keep bringing this up, but the dungeon finder has been broken for ages, why don't they take the time to fix these things?

Rohamad_Ali · April 2017

I wish if they really wanted player opinion they would make Ingame polls . The forums have never represented the population accurately .

TheStealthDude · April 2017

Vigarr wrote: »

I'm the average player (not casaual but not elite) so I'm one of the majority of players in this game who aren't happy with these changes...my friends share my feelings and many in my guilds as well. On the patch note day nobody in my guild was talking about Morrowind and the things being added, they were only talking about the things being taken away and how it will kill the game for us.

Had they simply separated pve and pvp, making these changes to pvp only, then most people would be ok as most people don't set foot in cyrodiil.

That's interesting since I am also an average player and the people I play with were rather excited about the changes being made. You don't speak for the majority of players when you say that they are unhappy.

On a side note: when are people going to understand that: 1) They aren't going to separate PvE and PvP balancing, per their own words, and 2) The changes being made were needed for PvE balancing just a much, if not more, as for PvP.

Turelus · April 2017

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I wish if they really wanted player opinion they would make Ingame polls . The forums have never represented the population accurately .

I worry as to where this would take us.

Do you want more sparkle mounts for £40?
Yes
No

Betheny · April 2017

I do...but everyone else here is an aberration.

Beardimus · April 2017

No the forum doesn't represent. Hardly any Xbox players I play with have ever come here.

Like all forums its the noisy few that are most vocal. Like the sub 1% pop trial guys declaring end game is dead repeatedly while millions of others are blissfully decorating their homes.

zaria · April 2017

Turelus wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I wish if they really wanted player opinion they would make Ingame polls . The forums have never represented the population accurately .

I worry as to where this would take us.

Do you want more sparkle mounts for £40?
Yes
No

Answer would probably be no,
However should light attacks do 10K damage or similar large universal buff would probably get an yes.

jedtb16_ESO · April 2017

the only thing people who post here represent is themselves.

Betheny · April 2017

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

the only thing people who post here represent is themselves.

You can't talk about what other people are if you truly believe what you just wrote

[Deleted User] · April 2017

The user and all related content has been deleted.

jedtb16_ESO · April 2017

Betheny wrote: »

jedtb16_ESO wrote: »

the only thing people who post here represent is themselves.

You can't talk about what other people are if you truly believe what you just wrote

lol...

Rex-Umbra · April 2017

Vast majority never use the forums . Even high end console players don't know what they are.

waterfairy · April 2017

TheStealthDude wrote: »

Vigarr wrote: »

I'm the average player (not casaual but not elite) so I'm one of the majority of players in this game who aren't happy with these changes...my friends share my feelings and many in my guilds as well. On the patch note day nobody in my guild was talking about Morrowind and the things being added, they were only talking about the things being taken away and how it will kill the game for us.

Had they simply separated pve and pvp, making these changes to pvp only, then most people would be ok as most people don't set foot in cyrodiil.

That's interesting since I am also an average player and the people I play with were rather excited about the changes being made. You don't speak for the majority of players when you say that they are unhappy.

On a side note: when are people going to understand that: 1) They aren't going to separate PvE and PvP balancing, per their own words, and 2) The changes being made were needed for PvE balancing just a much, if not more, as for PvP.

I don't hear the monsters complaining and if you can't see that pve and pvp are different and should be treated differently then obviously the nerf blanket to cover all is fine by you.

Bombashaman · April 2017

OldGamerESO wrote: »

<snip>

Good post. I agree.

Dreepa · April 2017

Having worked with data about exactly that topic, I can tell you that the average player is NOT visiting the forums.

The vocal minority that shouts loud and claims they speak for everyone are really in the <10% of the playerbase.

If you have a general forum participation of 15% of your player base, that is already a quite good number (for PC single player games. Might be different for MMOs, don't have any work experience in that field).

If developer REALLY want to gather data about their customers, they need to do an ingame survey that is combined with a reward, so even the lazy ones will answer.

So, yes, you are totally right. Forums are in no way a representative window into the playerbase. However, it gives you a good picture of the hardcore crowd.

Emmagoldman · April 2017

We collectively represent the player base, and should speak from our experience and be open to others. We can't speak for the entire community. There are some people that might represent an authority (not as in abusive, as in expert) who may speak for many people. 8 million accounts doesn't necessarily matter if they don't play. Even of the player population, if people do not wish to participate in discussion, their voice is absent. Same if there was a community meeting or workplace shopfloor meeting to discuss problems at work. If you don't participate, you're not taking place in community.

Draqone · April 2017

No.

jedtb16_ESO · April 2017

Emmagoldman wrote: »

We collectively represent the player base, and should speak from our experience and be open to others. We can't speak for the entire community. There are some people that might represent an authority (not as in abusive, as in expert) who may speak for many people. 8 million accounts doesn't necessarily matter if they don't play. Even of the player population, if people do not wish to participate in discussion, their voice is absent. Same if there was a community meeting or workplace shopfloor meeting to discuss problems at work. If you don't participate, you're not taking place in community.

no, we don't.

we are not delegates or representatives.

we come here and speak for ourselves and for ourselves only. to pretend otherwise is dishonest.

Peekachu99 · April 2017

Anyone that posts on these forums is not an "average" player. There's a fan-mentality (which can veer from giddy to hateful in an instant) that everyone here possesses. Average people do not take the time out of their day to discuss/ lament/ praise the nuances of a digital playground on a forum of like-minded souls.

They simply don't. The most they comit to is a "like" on FB here and there.

TheStealthDude · April 2017

Vigarr wrote: »

TheStealthDude wrote: »

Vigarr wrote: »

I'm the average player (not casaual but not elite) so I'm one of the majority of players in this game who aren't happy with these changes...my friends share my feelings and many in my guilds as well. On the patch note day nobody in my guild was talking about Morrowind and the things being added, they were only talking about the things being taken away and how it will kill the game for us.

Had they simply separated pve and pvp, making these changes to pvp only, then most people would be ok as most people don't set foot in cyrodiil.

That's interesting since I am also an average player and the people I play with were rather excited about the changes being made. You don't speak for the majority of players when you say that they are unhappy.

On a side note: when are people going to understand that: 1) They aren't going to separate PvE and PvP balancing, per their own words, and 2) The changes being made were needed for PvE balancing just a much, if not more, as for PvP.

I don't hear the monsters complaining and if you can't see that pve and pvp are different and should be treated differently then obviously the nerf blanket to cover all is fine by you.

This is what I mean, thank you for helping to make my point for me. Everyone can obviously see that PvE and PvP are different, but there is an overlapping problem exists in both: it's too easy to sustain resources. The game is designed on resources being a limit to how often you can use abilities and skills, as opposed to skill cooldowns. If there is basically 0 consideration needed to maintain said resources, the balance of the game is ruined.

The game balance was designed to revolve around: damage, survivability, and resource sustain. Upping one of those should have a negativr effect on the other two. Currently, speccing for 100% damage or 100% survivability is achievable with a negligible effect on resource sustain. That's a problem. And it's not just a PvP problem. It poses a PvE problem because 1) The only build choices you have to make are which best 3-4 damage sets to use and 2) DPS becomes so absurdly high that players can essentially skip mechanics of encounters. In other words, it's power creep and it needs to be rolled back.

GreenhaloX · April 2017

Nahh.. I just have the feeling only a small percentage of actual in-game players are messing around on this forum. Although questionable at times with some comments and feedback, whether trolling or not-so-positively, it is not as vile or bad as can be on the in-game zone text chats. That is more indicative of ESO gamers. Ha ha.

Final disclosure: I don't represent any other players or gamers, and my views and opinions on here are representative of my own.

parkham · April 2017

flguy147ub17_ESO wrote: »

[..]
For example, I am was in a dungeon the other day and I have been getting some weird bug where I literally can't weave and am stuck just light attacking or just using abilities. [..]

Dude.. that happens to me all the time. Please PM me if you know what fixes it.

Back on topic. I read the forums and take into consideration what is said and what I see. But it gets right down to it, "am I still having fun?" If answer is yes, I keep playing.

Kalante · April 2017

I wish there was a player count at the log in screen. Then we can talk.

Pallio · April 2017

Regardless of how much value they place on feedback, last patch cost players, guild membership etc. made that obvious, this patch will be massive hit to people leaving or quiting or whatever you want to quantify. It is almost as if they intentionally want to have a smaller player base.

parkham · April 2017

Pallio wrote: »

Regardless of how much value they place on feedback, last patch cost players, guild membership etc. made that obvious, this patch will be massive hit to people leaving or quiting or whatever you want to quantify. It is almost as if they intentionally want to have a smaller player base.

How can you say that and back it up with any concrete information?

Kiralyn2000 · April 2017

OldGamerESO wrote: »

We are the outliers, we are are the minority. It is the same with every online game.

It's actually probably a tad worse for this game, with the whole "invitation to the forums" thing. I know it took me longer to get here to post due to that - the first time I really felt the "ooh, want to say something about this" impulse, I ran headfirst into the "your account doesn't log you into the forums! What, you missed the invitation email when you first registered?" thing. And was just stunned that they'd do something so silly, threw my hands up in disgust, and wandered off to do something else. It took several more times of wanting to post something before I finally bothered to do the support ticket to get a new invitation.

Rainteal · April 2017

I think the other point that is often overlooked is that ZOS has real data. For all of the grand opinions that everyone on the forums have, regardless of the amount of hours played and consensus among friends, it still boils down to anecdotal accounts. We as players cannot rise to see an actual big picture because we lack big data.

ZOS can see and track EVERYTHING! They can juxtapose that information with what they read on the forums here and what they learn playing the game themselves. Simply put, they just have a perspective on the game that we will never have and make changes based on that view that we may or may not understand.

Do I like all of the changes that I have seen in the game? No, absolutely not. Do I like changes that I see coming? No, not that either, but for any of us to make sweeping statements about the wrongs, rights, or whys is shortsighted. It is best for us to provide our feedback so that ZOS has more data and information to compare with their data. But as far as any of us coming in here and shouting from the roof that we represent everyone and know better shows how little folks on the forums actually know.