Forum Trials bias

OldGamerESO · April 2017

I have noticed a trend on the forums that answers to class mechanics and gear selections seem to be mostly trial based when I suspect the question was more 4-man dungeon focused. When pressed, someone will write... "Oh, you are asking about 4-man? well do whatever you want, it doesn't matter <insert here a comment on how they solo vICP naked with a bucket on their head>"

When people say "I am building a tank and thinking about X" or "I heard I should run SPC but I only have Julianos is that OK?" they are usually talking about 4-man dungeons. Here is my thinking with no proof except in-game observation. Almost none of the player base has ever run a trial or ever intends to. People come on to the forums to ask questions are mostly average, normal players who quest, sometimes RP in non optimal gear, run Vampire because it is cool, 99.99 percent of their time is spent in open world content, and maybe they want to start running pledges. So I think we should start asking people what the context of their question is about before we start talking Akosh, Ebon, SPC, Tava, Moondancer, Infallible-Aether, BiS-hard-to-get-trial-gear, etc. As we all know, the dungeon finder has a lot of players that think bow with light attacks is the way to dps, or that healing is just BoL spam. Overwhelming them with trial-focused information (you need 30K self buffed DPS, or you need to Tank the Warrior with perma block, you should be running warhorn, etc) when they are currently doing 2K dps, etc is not the right level of response. I wonder how many people we have sent away discouraged and confused?

TheStealthDude · April 2017

Yes I have noticed that discussion for PvE heavily leans towards Trials. I think there is plenty of room for discussions about trials and I don't have any problem with that, but I think we do a disservice to the community by not distinguishing clearly enough in discussions that the topics relate to trials.

I also think we need to better recognize that what is optimal for trials may not exactly be optimal for dungeons. While the content may be laughably easy for someone who has cleared HM vMoL, it's not necessarily so for most the community. Certain things like, for example, using weapon/spell power pots are certainly normal assumptions for competitive trial play but horrible assumptions for dungeon play, as most players aren't going to have the gold to run these normally and it just isn't practical.

Other examples, like the assumption of availabiloty of shards or orbs in trials (perfectly valid assumptions there) are not good assumptions for dungeons. All of these greatly affect how you should optimally build a character for dungeons vs trials.

I would love to see more builds and discussions for the "common/casual ESO player" with the intent of getting the most out of what is available to them and their play style. I cringe a little when i see someone suggesting a BiS build to someone who is cleaely new to the game. There are plenty of people who offer non-BiS gear suggestions in their builds, but I think these seem to be hastily tacked on, rather than carefully thought out in most cases.

I think there is a lot of room for discussions that help the "normal/common/casual players" and I think we just need to do a better job at acknowledging that not everyone looking for help needs to know how to run their character in a Trial and give them better advice more closely related to where they are in the game.

Izaki · April 2017

What's wrong with telling someone about trials gear? It may actually make them want to get better and actually start doing trials.

TheStealthDude · April 2017

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

What's wrong with telling someone about trials gear? It may actually make them want to get better and actually start doing trials.

There's no problem with telling the about trial gear, but when the new player just hit cp 160 and is asking how to build for effective DPS, they likely aren't going to be hitting Trials right away. Saying "You should run TFS and VO" is more likely to put them off playing the game than saying something like "start with crafting yourself or asking a someone to craft you Hunding's rage and start looking around for blue level Spriggan jewelry and armor".

Providing advice closer to their level of play helps them learn the game better and keeps them interested in progressing.

Brrrofski · April 2017

Because most dungeons can be done with whatever.

There's only a few where you need to do more than spam dizzying swing in heavy armour.

Izaki · April 2017

TheStealthDude wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

What's wrong with telling someone about trials gear? It may actually make them want to get better and actually start doing trials.

There's no problem with telling the about trial gear, but when the new player just hit cp 160 and is asking how to build for effective DPS, they likely aren't going to be hitting Trials right away. Saying "You should run TFS and VO" is more likely to put them off playing the game than saying something like "start with crafting yourself or asking a someone to craft you Hunding's rage and start looking around for blue level Spriggan jewelry and armor".

Providing advice closer to their level of play helps them learn the game better and keeps them interested in progressing.

Well yeah that's obviously stupid lol
But there are so many people who don't ask their questions properly without specifing their level or anything else, that its quite hard to guess what they mean, ya know

Tyrion87 · April 2017

The best part is when people are struggling with completing vMA and asking for help regarding their build to be able to get it done, and the "advisors" say: "moondancer staff on front bar, and maelstrom staff on back bar" <both-of-course-sharpened>

Dao_Jones · April 2017

Amen, OP.

I always find it amusing that any "build advice" question almost immediately goes to a 1%, top-end BiS discussion designed to solo veteran content. It'd be like a new driver asking what kind of car they should drive, and people saying "you should aim to own a Bugatti Veyron."

Anecdotally, I'd suggest that there are three kinds of "help me with builds" players:

1. Newbies who genuinely have no idea what or how to play
2. Returning players, or somewhat experienced players who are looking for advice on how to better play their class
3. Experienced people looking to get into end-game content who want to optimize their build

Only group 3 really benefits from a discussion around top-flight end game gear. By the time the other two groups have gotten to that place, the meta is very likely to have changed.

As an added detriment, counseling people toward top level builds can actually discourage some players, because it creates a perception that anything that *isn't* a perfect class/race combo, rocking perfect gear, is garbage that will get kicked out of every pug they try to join. Kudos to those forum goers who make sure to emphasize that it's *not* necessary to strive for perfection to be successful in ESO.

People are generally very helpful on these forums, and I've gotten (and read) an enormous amount of good advice here. But sometimes I feel like a white belt in a room of 10th degree black belts, who are telling me that anything less than breaking 15 boards using only my mind is sub-optimal. ("Chi is BiS for Wing Chun, dude. You'll get kicked out of the dojo if you're still using your hands at level 8.")

OrphanHelgen · April 2017

Those who say you can do whatever you want in 4 man dungeons, either don't know what they are talking about or mean normal dungeons, not veteran.

You can use julianos on healer, but spc are best since it boost the group dps more then your own spell damage as a healer.

The better the group are in a 4 man dung, the smoother the run. Ofc, using spc on 2 dd's who don't have any rotation or dps anyway, wouldn't matter, but that's another story.

casparian · April 2017

Anecdotally, I'd suggest that there are three kinds of "help me with builds" players:

1. Newbies who genuinely have no idea what or how to play
2. Returning players, or somewhat experienced players who are looking for advice on how to better play their class
3. Experienced people looking to get into end-game content who want to optimize their build

Only group 3 really benefits from a discussion around top-flight end game gear. By the time the other two groups have gotten to that place, the meta is very likely to have changed.

This is true, though I would add a category between 2 and 3 (call it 2b): those who know what the meta is, but are trying to work out how to do something else. These people are somewhat experienced in the game, have an idea they haven't seen discussed much, and want to get advice on whether it will work. These are the ones who are trying to figure out how to make their magblade a frost mage, for instance, or wondering whether some obscure armor set could actually work well for them, or asking for help determining whether Automaton is better than Hunding's. Often when people ask questions like these, they get answers about what is BiS ("use TFS instead", or "why would you ever use Winterborn; BSW is so much better and flame damage is superior in trials" etc.) -- answers which are true but nevertheless not helpful.

I went through White Gold Tower the other day with a stamplar tank who had a bow on his back bar. It was great; we never wiped once. Dungeons (including vet dungeons) are one place in this game where real build diversity exists; let's not ruin that by insisting that people run trial-optimized setups.

masterbroodub17_ESO · April 2017

Tyrion87 wrote: »

The best part is when people are struggling with completing vMA and asking for help regarding their build to be able to get it done, and the "advisors" say: "moondancer staff on front bar, and maelstrom staff on back bar" <both-of-course-sharpened>

I want to slap every vet who makes guides for vMA and includes vMA weapons in the guide.

s7732425ub17_ESO · April 2017

Yes, this is true. Most players are not running Trials or even thinking about running hardcore Trials. At best, they are running in pug normal Trial groups which usually turn out ok and don't need very high skill.

A lot of the most active forum posters are hardcore players with hardcore raid groups that try to set world records. But they tend to forget that 99% of the players in this game do not fall into this category, nor do they want to be in this category.

WalksonGraves · April 2017

Typical tank forum response "Everything is so easy I tank in light utility sets, but also it can only be done by a dk because it's too hard".

Nestor · April 2017

It's almost like if you asked for what kind of sports car a person should get the reply would be:

When all most people need or would enjoy is:

Oompuh · April 2017

Nestor wrote: »

It's almost like if you asked for what kind of sports car a person should get the reply would be:

When all most people need or would enjoy is:

That's a good way to put it. I usually recommend the end for tanks (ebon and alkosh) due to the fact if that it works for hard mode trials, it will work in a normal dungeon. Too add on to that I think the fault also lies with the poster, what are you looking to do and what constraints do you have?

amasuriel · April 2017

I think it's mostly because vet trials right now are legitimately the hardest content, so people assume that it's your ultimate aim. I agree for lots of people it isn't, but honestly almost all the same advice applies.

I do find it amusing / annoying that the only DPS suggestions include vMA, Moondancer or IA sharpened weapons, which is rare even for people who do run trials.

I also think that the focus on gear is a bit of a red herring anyway. I mean the people who are DPSing in heavy are probably a lost cause, because they are not the type of people to think even for a second about the tooltips and what they mean, but for the average person using decent sets, DPS, tanking and healing is at least 70% about skills.

Not to say the gear isn't important to a degree, but when I started learning how to DPS I went from barely 16k to 30k self buffed parses wearing nearly identical gear (not BiS for the most part).

masterbroodub17_ESO · April 2017

amasuriel wrote: »

I think it's mostly because vet trials right now are legitimately the hardest content, so people assume that it's your ultimate aim. I agree for lots of people it isn't, but honestly almost all the same advice applies.

I do find it amusing / annoying that the only DPS suggestions include vMA, Moondancer or IA sharpened weapons, which is rare even for people who do run trials.

I also think that the focus on gear is a bit of a red herring anyway. I mean the people who are DPSing in heavy are probably a lost cause, because they are not the type of people to think even for a second about the tooltips and what they mean, but for the average person using decent sets, DPS, tanking and healing is at least 70% about skills.

Not to say the gear isn't important to a degree, but when I started learning how to DPS I went from barely 16k to 30k self buffed parses wearing nearly identical gear (not BiS for the most part).

Teach me your ways, I suck hahaha. And the worst part is I give myself cramps trying to animation cancel and still eff it up XD

Masel · April 2017

I always try to advise people correctly and include non-trial setups in guides, even though I might sometimes lose oversight...
Most people strive to be best, fastest highest, whatever, but that is not going to make you happy with a game if you always run the same content with the same gear... Where's the fun in that? I mean I'm on all trial leaderboards and did hardmodes and vMA on all classes and specs except stamplar, but that bias always annoyed me too.

If you want my advice, it's a lot more fun to try different setups and see if they're good than just grinding for the meta.

Magdalina · April 2017

Well, to be fair you really do not need much of a setup or skills or anything to do open world content. This is not a case of cp, this is a fact. So if someone is asking for build/skills advice, there're only 2 reasons that could possibly inspire them to.

1) They're complete and absolute newbie and hence they're actually struggling with the content because they're overwhelmed with all the new information and absolutely don't get how it works. In which case some explanations are in order and of course it's silly to suggest MA/Moondance/stuff, though a mention of Julianos/Hunding's never hurts as they're easily craftable/buyable and they are legit good.

2)They're not struggling with (openworld) content but they feel they can be more effective and they want to be more effective. Which probably implies they're at least interested in group dungeons or maybe trials at some point down the way. Why wouldn't they want to hear suggestions about most effective builds? I mean reading comprehension is always a good thing, if they specifically mention they just hit lvl 30 you might want to not recommend MA staff as their main weapon just yet, but still. Trial builds, to the best of my understanding, aren't made for some unique outstanding synergy that only exists in trials, they're builds that work most efficiently in group setting in terms of quickly and painlessly taking stuff down, which is something you're going to want in a dungeon too. I'm struggling trying to think of a setup that'd be effective in a trial but wouldn't work in a (vet) dungeon. Now if you're going to pug them, well, that's going to bring up some more variables as you're likely to have a healer who doesn't heal, tank who doesn't taunt and dps who do 8k dps together etc. But in general people assume the question is "how can I be most effective in a proper group?", not "how can I carry other people easily?" unless that's specifically what's stated in a question.

I think most people recommend stuff like Julianos/Hunding's along with Bsw/VO/etc. I also think trial-related focused builds can be helpeful even for newcomers because at least they'll point you in the right direction.

That said, part of it could also be that people who like giving others advises are mostly the people following meta etc

Take that as you will, good or bad.

Vaoh · April 2017

Hmm...... well if someone asks what the best gear to run on a Magicka Sorc DPS, the answer is always the same:

- 2x Ilambris
- 5x Necropotence/Burning Spellweave
- 4x Infallible Mage/Moondancer
- 1x Maelstrom Inferno Staff
- All Max Magicka enchants, Sharpened weapons/Divines armor/Arcane jewelry, Gold quality

etc etc....

This goes for either trials or dungeons. Using this gear you *will* have the highest DPS potential (also assuming you use the general meta Mag Sorc rotation as well).

I think people refer to trials because much more than 0.1% of players are running trials. Players are leveling up, and the want to run these trials is growing more and more all the time. It's cool to take on these immense group dungeons with 12-man groups. When people see that they need BiS gear (or close to it) in order to run Vet trials, they're gonna ask about it though. Seems normal to me.

Those who answer these questions aren't often given much context, and therefore will often provide them what they know regardless of the content. If asked what crafted gear or easy-to-acquire/cheap gear would be to use, then you wouldn't get the same response as what was purely BiS.

Also if asking only about group dungeons, then it is common for people to say it doesn't really matter because they are easy enough to the point where you can use whatever you want even at CP160.

Maybe I've overlooked the actual question of this thread.... just seems to me the people are trying to help other people and are giving what is likely great information away but it isn't casual-oriented enough to help? Idk. If you deal 2K DPS it is because you need to learn rotations which is the key to putting out high damage. Asking for good DPS gear is bound to provide disappointing answers.

parkham · April 2017

I started following the "meta" but I soon realized that it should be taken with a grain of salt. Chances are I will never, ever get a "BiS" set and that's "OK".

Use their builds a reference, get something similar to what they have, try it out. Keep what works for you, discard what doesn't. Experiment, rinse and repeat.

Sru · April 2017

As a returning player after 2 years out of the game, it has been fascinating to see the huge "meta" play burgeon. The stock response that "you need VMA gear to run VMA" is very prevalent and thoroughly off putting. However, when the BiS is paired with an alternative, crafted/drop list together with reasons, this is immensely helpful and gives good insight into current mechanics. Gear is a progression and if new players can be helped understand what real benefits accrues form changing gear, it is welcomed. They can then experiment from there with a solid understanding of what changes to core stats will impact.

Getting to run the trials without BiS is more challenging .. sadly there are substantial numbers of people who will just not even allow non-CP600 people into their groups in order to learn both the mechanics and get the gear. Those that might dain to allow a non-meta player in will often boot at the slightest perceived mechanism slight. I really have no idea how people are expected to learn unless vet players help - after all, they often benefited from a kind vet themselves when new. Reading guides is ok but nothing beats hands-on experience - a few wipes usually does wonders for learning

Yes, at cp160, I was booted from a normal dungeon as I was "obviously not capable and knew nothing"

pizzaow · April 2017

The problem is often that the author doesn't provide context/level/goals...

If I ask "What's the best gear for a mag sorc?" I'm going to get answers for the VERY BEST (i.e. hard to get) gear for mag sorc; maelstrom, sharpened trial drops, etc. However, I'll get very different answers if I provide more information and ask: "I just turned CP160 and want to gear out my mag sorc. I don't mind farming for 1 set, but I'd like to be able to craft/buy the other pieces. I also tend to have sustain issues, so any gear that can help with that would be great. What would you recommend?".

I think most people on the forums are generally very helpful, especially with new players.