Can we just get rid of the Champion Point system (as it currently exists)? Please?

AlexanderDeLarge · April 2017

The champion point system should be a vanity thing with slight play style customization and I don't mean percentages/numbers going up. Why not "ascendancy" classes? Why not abilities? The champion point system was poorly implemented from the start and as long as it's simply "numbers going up", nothing will make it varied or interesting as ZOS intended and with the cap increasing more and more with each DLC/"chapter", the power creep is real and it's causing nothing but problems. People will go on YouTube, look at the best numbers for what they're trying to do and they'll use those as always.

And now it seems with the PTS patch, the entire game is being designed around this system that is flawed to the core and everyone knows it. Why double down on it? It seems like this upcoming patch will only decrease the amount of build variety we see in PVE and PVP.

Give us more character customization and let us specialize even more than we already do.... Or just scrap the whole thing and make the level 50 experience as awesome as it can possibly be.

AlexanderDeLarge · April 2017

Ultimately, I just think these rebalance patches are a waste of time as long as it's being designed around a system that has never and will never achieve what it was supposed to.

I don't have all the answers but it just seems like a lot of time has been wasted on trying to get this system working and unless they stop with the power creep, they're always going to be tinkering with these numbers and it's only going to waste even more time.

Turelus · April 2017

I wish we could gut the CP system, but it's too late now.

Valykc · April 2017

Very much agreed. CP needs to go and be reworked and this whole balance patch need to be rolled back and designed.

Vapirko · April 2017

I think this is all common knowledge but patch after patch they keep pushing it and raising the cap. It's obviously there precious baby and they aren't gonna do away with it. EXCEPT, maybe, since BGs are going no cp direction perhaps they're considering experimenting with it and seeing how it goes. But I doubt it. It's not that they should abolish CP its just that it needs to serve a different function, and that is not simply adding on flat numbers for damage or whatever but acting to further certain skills so that the points can be implemented in a way that encourage people to figure out varied builds and styles of play. But I doubt that will happen.

AlnilamE · April 2017

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

The champion point system should be a vanity thing with slight play style customization and I don't mean percentages/numbers going up. Why not "ascendancy" classes? Why not abilities?

Like what?

Also, you will pry Master Gatherer from my cold, dead fingers. :-P

KerinKor · April 2017

Vapirko wrote: »

I think this is all common knowledge but patch after patch they keep pushing it and raising the cap. It's obviously there precious baby and they aren't gonna do away with it.

So what's YOUR solution to the problem of on-going CHARACTER progression?

Remove the CPs and you remove the point of playing beyond 50. The only progression after that is mindless grinding of dungeons for phat lewt GEAR which isn't why many of us play the game, take post-50 CHARACTER progression away and we're done at 50.

The abandoned VR system was at least character progression, though flawed in the way it was implemented as it was designed for force-group play and its demise was welcome, the CP system that replaced it wasn't ideal but better than nothing.

F7sus4 · April 2017

Somehow it's not CP that makes 1000CP+ Skyreach grind-scrubs good but actually both the player skill and theorycrafting know-how. The biggest misunderstanding is about attributing "having power" to CP and gear solely.

Bad players will still be bad - with and without CP. The system is already nerfed due to their cry below any meaningful level anyway.

AlexanderDeLarge · April 2017

Do it the way Guild Wars 1 did it. Let players progress in play style, let them progress cosmetically, give them some vanity rewards but no more "numbers going up". Power creep is a huge ongoing problem and it wastes a lot of development resources that could've gone to more useful things.

I really do applaud ZOS for keeping gear capped at CP160, it's very similar to how Guild Wars 1 never raised the level beyond 20. New expansion came out? It's for level 20 players. New raids? Level 20. New end-game content? Level 20. New armor? Level 20. That meant all content was always relevant, the game was easily accessible and they rarely had to go back and waste time revisiting things they developed 5 years ago because it was built on a solid foundation.

For a game that does so many things differently to every other major themepark MMO currently on the market, it's disappointing to see this game being a victim of the whole "numbers going up" cliche.

kalarro · April 2017

No thanks. As a low CP player, the thing that makes me want to keep playing at max level is getting stronger by earning CP. Well, what really makes me like the game is that I can keep playing tons of cool quests, after max level. But doing them for no reward wouldnt be fun. So I like doing the quests, while beeing rewarded with CP.

Removing CP would make me drop the game after a few days of doing cool content, but with no reward.

Sausage · April 2017

I fully disagree, CP is great way to keep player playing after they hit max lvl. Short progression (well, cp system isnt exactly short but it should be) with tons of power is way to do it. Sure, you one could do pure cosmetic endgame, but how many actually keep playing?

AlexanderDeLarge · April 2017

kalarro wrote: »

No thanks. As a low CP player, the thing that makes me want to keep playing at max level is getting stronger by earning CP. Well, what really makes me like the game is that I can keep playing tons of cool quests, after max level. But doing them for no reward wouldnt be fun. So I like doing the quests, while beeing rewarded with CP.

Removing CP would make me drop the game after a few days of doing cool content, but with no reward.

In this hypothetical, you'd be rewarded with cosmetics and ways to diversify your character through ascendancy (along with becoming a better, more skillful player). Why do you need your numbers to go up so you can feel stronger? Not only does that make content easier (which it really does, go make a character on the PTS, the vast majority of content at CP630 is a joke), it makes it far more difficult for players without your mindset to enjoy aspects of the game that many of them are perfectly able to enjoy if it weren't for the numbers being too low due to champion point passives ultimately to a smaller end-game community.

I've seen a lot of great CP160 players and I've seen absolute dog *** CP600s that went into Skyreach for a couple hours during a double XP event. There has to be a way to allow for more build diversity, which is really what this game should be excelling at since it's The Elder Scrolls Online.

AlexanderDeLarge · April 2017

It seems like the champion point system has only made characters increasingly identical since it came out. YouTube builds and skill calculators will always be a thing, I get that... But I'd rather have 50 viable builds instead of 10.

Elvenpath · April 2017

So, when they remove CP what you going to do with your earned experience? CP is ok but! totally need to rework on system, while they are changing whole CP system twice a year probably there is something wrong.

AlexanderDeLarge · April 2017

Let people keep their Champion Points. Treat it like the Paragon system from Blizzard's games. Give people costumes/mounts/skins/whatever for hitting certain levels. Good players are able to run Veteran Trials, bad players who grind Skyreach and come out not knowing a damn thing about endgame get cosmetic rewards. Everyone wins.

Just get rid of the passives and either replace it with something like an Ascendancy system that replaces passives with abilities that improve a character's specialization or make the base 160 experience as awesome as it can possibly be. Personally I prefer the latter but I see the appeal of something like endgame subclasses.

STEVIL · April 2017

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

kalarro wrote: »

No thanks. As a low CP player, the thing that makes me want to keep playing at max level is getting stronger by earning CP. Well, what really makes me like the game is that I can keep playing tons of cool quests, after max level. But doing them for no reward wouldnt be fun. So I like doing the quests, while beeing rewarded with CP.

Removing CP would make me drop the game after a few days of doing cool content, but with no reward.

In this hypothetical, you'd be rewarded with cosmetics and ways to diversify your character through ascendancy (along with becoming a better, more skillful player). Why do you need your numbers to go up so you can feel stronger? Not only does that make content easier (which it really does, go make a character on the PTS, the vast majority of content at CP630 is a joke), it makes it far more difficult for players without your mindset to enjoy aspects of the game that many of them are perfectly able to enjoy if it weren't for the numbers being too low due to champion point passives ultimately to a smaller end-game community.

I've seen a lot of great CP160 players and I've seen absolute dog *** CP600s that went into Skyreach for a couple hours during a double XP event. There has to be a way to allow for more build diversity, which is really what this game should be excelling at since it's The Elder Scrolls Online.

i do love the repeal and replace with solid on the repeal and nebulous on the replace arguments.

First - more anti-cp rants while the patch significantly reduces Cp power is hilarious.

Second - again focusing on the number of Cp and bemoaning the rise to 630 when right now 630 doesn't get you as much as 600 just did and acting like they are "raising" and thats power creep - again do some math. 630 to get 20% at 100 when 600 got you 25% at 100 is not "raising" - its just changing the units.

Third - anti-cp raise bemoans when this patch frontloads a lot more strongly so the diff between cp300 and cp630 to marginal is hilarious.

Fourth - Wow somebody figured out the vast majority of contet is easy at cp630... well let me offer a new nugget for those for whom that is news - its easy at cp10 too. its easy at level 30, level 40, level 20. I have leveled to max i think four characters now since 1T. in each case the only cp i allocated was 10 to get that node doubler - so that was 10 into the % boost to health regen iirc. No difficult content over the "vast majority". Why? Cuz that content is meant in part to be played by learners, folks without full gear even if its not sets but only white training. it gets longer as you develop yor character but not appreciably harder. As you unlock more options more challenges are presented but hey you have more so again not harder just different.
there is a vast majority of casual easy content and s small minority of challenging difficult to severely challenging content available. That is even if you have no Cp. At most, CP just spends things up for the vast majority of content.

Fifth - there are no cp pvp campaigns and you never have to allocate a single cp point. So, guess what, you can repeal and then imagine all the replacements for cp for yourself any day any time. You dont need rule changes to take it away from those who want it for you to not have to endure a single cp ruining your imagined ascensions.

Sixth - when you do come up with something other than adjectives for ascensions or whatever you see as the obvious phantom replacement for Cp, detail it and put it forth cuz you know it might be interesting and workable and it might be able to work right alongside cp. After all, customization shouldn't lock out development, right? I am sure many of us would love to see more customization capabilities... just some of us dont see it as having to be linked to taking away stuff we have now and like that you can opt-out of.

Darth_Trumpious · April 2017

No offence, but the request of "get rid of CP system" coming from someone who just joined 60 days ago sounds fishy to me. Seems that someone who just started playing and didnt want to spend efforts leveling. Do you really understand how CP system works? I only see you keep referring other games while calling current CP system "poorly implemented"

ofSunhold · April 2017

AlnilamE wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

The champion point system should be a vanity thing with slight play style customization and I don't mean percentages/numbers going up. Why not "ascendancy" classes? Why not abilities?

Like what?

Also, you will pry Master Gatherer from my cold, dead fingers. :-P

lol

Take the Arcane Well back again if you must, but not Treasure Hunter no no no no no

AlexanderDeLarge · April 2017

Darth_Trumpious wrote: »

No offence, but the request of "get rid of CP system" coming from someone who just joined 60 days ago sounds fishy to me. Seems that someone who just started playing and didnt want to spend efforts leveling. Do you really understand how CP system works? I only see you keep referring other games while calling current CP system "poorly implemented"

Been playing since launch. Had no reason to join the forums and I missed the invitation code so it was a pain to join. Had to send a ticket in.

Does anyone see the Champion Point system as anything more than a missed opportunity? If it's just going to be a bunch of passives, why not place those additional stats on gear or in skills and come up with something that changes the way the game plays?

Koensol · April 2017

@AlexanderDeLarge I would have preferred there to be more horizontal progression, in stead of vertical progression as we have now which has and will continue to cause a power creep.

But ZOS will never kill their baby. The CP system was the almighty savior back when 1.6 launched. They got rid of the veteran system and CP was their prized pony. They will not revamp it again, trust me.

AlexanderDeLarge · April 2017

Also leveling to Cp300 is nearly just as much work as leveling 1-50 and assuming you're not grinding Skyreach, that can take a good month or two of casual play 2-3 hours a night. As I've said before, the champion point system is no gauge of quality players and I've seen some awesome below 160 players and I've seen some awful CP600s.

The barrier for entry is far too high and it's driving people away. Not to mention older players that actually are Cp300-630 that are getting sick of having increasingly less choice with every real rebalance patch.

Graydon · April 2017

I'm late to the party here...

Why are Champion Points a bad thing?

I like earning points and progression after 50 and I have so many choices.

I do hope eventually ZOS adds more options to spend CP's. I really enjoy playing the powerful character (in my mind!) that I have built.

Kammakazi · April 2017

Nah.

I like having my 1033 CP.

estrong20b14_ESO · April 2017

ESO balances player to enemy. But, if you add in the champion points, won't that unbalance the "balance"? How does the game compensate for that? Two level tens, for example, one using champion pts, the other doesn't. How does the enemy then balance with that?

Then again, if two players, grouped or not, take on a single enemy, how is that balanced? I have so many questions about balance.

Spottswoode · April 2017

Unfortunately, we are at the point where the investment people have put into their CP builds is pretty emotionally heavy. Abandoning the CP system could be cataclysmic.

The CP system needs to be used to balance the game instead of balancing the game around the CP system. The CP system can be flexible enough to put all of the five classes on more even terms. Instead ZOS uses it as icing on the cake, so to speak, and it makes quite a few things so overwhelming that others can't catch up.

We might be at the point where we need dual specialization like many other MMO's have. Having two completely different setups would probably do better for long term balancing.

AlexanderDeLarge · April 2017

Graydon wrote: »

I'm late to the party here...

Why are Champion Points a bad thing?

I like earning points and progression after 50 and I have so many choices.

I do hope eventually ZOS adds more options to spend CP's. I really enjoy playing the powerful character (in my mind!) that I have built.

Because they make content significantly easier, it's a huge, intimidating barrier of entry for new players and it's a glorified passive system that feels like a giant missed opportunity for something more interesting like Ascendancy sub-classes or having a really strong foundation where you level to 50 and that's it.

If I could disable XP gain after CP300, I would have done it (the only reason I wouldn't want to after 160 is because vet trials are basically impossible at that level).

Also yeah, that's my concern is that it might be "too late" and we're stuck with a system that is going to receive incremental raises on the cap meaning they're going to be spending a lot of time rebalancing this system every couple patches and people are going to run the numbers again and the calculators will be updated within a day as always.

Graydon · April 2017

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Graydon wrote: »

I'm late to the party here...

Why are Champion Points a bad thing?

I like earning points and progression after 50 and I have so many choices.

I do hope eventually ZOS adds more options to spend CP's. I really enjoy playing the powerful character (in my mind!) that I have built.

Because they make content significantly easier, it's a huge, intimidating barrier of entry for new players and it's a glorified passive system that feels like a giant missed opportunity for something more interesting like Ascendancy sub-classes or having a really strong foundation where you level to 50 and that's it.

If I could disable XP gain after CP300, I would have done it (the only reason I wouldn't want to after 160 is because vet trials are basically impossible at that level).

Also yeah, that's my concern is that it might be "too late" and we're stuck with a system that is going to receive incremental raises on the cap meaning they're going to be spending a lot of time rebalancing this system every couple patches.

But isn't it up to the player? To decide to spend the CP's? If content is too easy the player should refrain from spending CP's. Let each player make that choice.

You don't have to disable xp gain after CP300...just respec and spend CP300.

Not sure how spending CP's for the new player is intimidating. They are level 50 when they earn CP. And making their character stronger isn't intimidating

I do hope they expand the CP feature for more goodies as you have mentioned. I don't think ZOS can take away CP's. Oh the rage!! LOL!

Wollust · April 2017

I'll never understand the need for constant character progression.

QuebraRegra · April 2017

AlnilamE wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

The champion point system should be a vanity thing with slight play style customization and I don't mean percentages/numbers going up. Why not "ascendancy" classes? Why not abilities?

Like what?

Also, you will pry Master Gatherer from my cold, dead fingers. :-P

but dat TREASURE HUNTER!!!

srsly, rework the system so it's more about useful passives like these rather than out and out direct huge dmg/rsource buffs.

flguy147ub17_ESO · April 2017

QuebraRegra wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

The champion point system should be a vanity thing with slight play style customization and I don't mean percentages/numbers going up. Why not "ascendancy" classes? Why not abilities?

Like what?

Also, you will pry Master Gatherer from my cold, dead fingers. :-P

but dat TREASURE HUNTER!!!

srsly, rework the system so it's more about useful passives like these rather than out and out direct huge dmg/rsource buffs.

Treasure Hunter, Master Gatherer are the types of things i think the CP system should have been about. Not 25% more damage, etc.