killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »

may your balls grow as small as peas and your beard fall off your right chin only. May your deodorants always smell of elderberries and your girlfriends race be rodents. May your ego inflate enough to fly away and your game designers shut you down.

He is not even considering replying in a constructive way to the most obvious flaws in his logic. Look I can FLYYY and shoot from 300 feets away and since I am Miats I must be allowed to!!11! hes mad as a cup of tea with bacon flavour


All his argumenst can be cooked down to that; I am Miats therefore I must not be killed.

Except this addon doesnt prevent him from dying at all and thats not what he's saying.

I fire a crystal frag at you, you can see the animation of me casting the spell and after that the projectile flying at you, without any addons. This addon then also adds an UI notification to that.

The only time when this gives you any kind of advantage is if Im not in your field of view, which means Im either trying to jump you from stealth or hitting you in your back (while youre more than likely busy fighting other people). In both cases Ive got a huge opening advantage so who the heck even cares?

Much ado about nothing

killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »

Thats never the way I experience it. It seems most of you are gankers, but I am not. I experience this on a daily basis in keep fights and mass fights. It is not just coincidence when some of my targets has a 100% dodge rate. So saying it only gives an advantage when being ganked is at best a lie because of ignorance. It is commonly used by zerg balls in TF to avoid incoming ranged damage, and more than anything, stuns. Because of this it gives the zergier groups an even huger advantage and makes any attempt at countering or reducing the effectiveness of zerg mentality a huge blow. If noone can either stop the zerg from growing or target players within the zerg effectively the variations within the game will totally disappear. You might be lead to believe the best players/guilds are running around soloing and ganking people. That is not true. The best players and guilds group up to make effective PBAoE bomb squads. The only way to take on a bomb squad is by having a better omb squad or by hitting them from range. Ill elaborate on that; I follow the bomb squad, I pick a target, I snipe said target. The snipe hits and stuns the target. The bomb squad being on teamspeek discord or wahtever either leaves the target, thus most likely he will die, and hence reducing the numbers of the bomb squad, making it less effective, or the return to help the cc'd members. Either way you reduce the effectiveness of the bomb squad. They can not lose too many members, because theres a critical number of players they need to sustain themself. They can also not rely on the dead members to return from spawn because they will be stopped on their way. Hence stopping ranged target options against bomb squads is making them even stronger than today. Do you like bomb squads? Now the last option has been eliminated because of ONE half good guy who can not find a way to counter ranged attacks. Thats why Im leaving, because I dont play 1v1 or gank. I play the campaign. I am at keep defences, being now effectively eliminated. I run next to the bomb teams kiting them, I attack the ones on top of the walls when siege is fireing...Now I /drum, cause I cant hit anymore. Obviosuly there are still players not using this addon, but the difference between those not using it and those using it is so huge...

Speaking from the same perspective, (but as a fragger), I can add that its VERY obvious who is using this vs who isn't.
Its amazing how many people who were just moving in a straight line side-on suddenly rolldodge just as you frag, or how often somebody who is running away from you rolldodges just as you fire that frag from behind.

On a build which relies on burst, whixh can only be done every 3.5 seconds, and also relies on a ransom process, and also has no other non-execute way to deal damage, well, negating the largest part of that burst with an add-on is simply not right.

1v1 isn't so bad cos I can frag from point blank range without getting targeted by every man and his dog.. But that isn't advisable with so much short and melee range cc around.

It Does gut some builds. And you have to use it or you're at a disadvantage to those who do.

I don't blame Miat for this as its just using info that zos decided to provide, but please don't pretend that it doesn't change the balance of power between builds.

Miat's PVP making unskillful players fill like pros, I would prefer fighting someone using cheat engine, at least they acknowledge that they have no skill. When you have to have an add-on to alert you that your enemy is near to expect to get attacked and when to dodge roll. Your might as well have a infinite life hack on.

you forgot 2 things; as a ranged, forget about playing pvp with this addon in its current state, so 3: leave the game. I did and cancelled all subs.

and finally, the exact same arguments were used when this addon showed which players were stealthed, where they were, class, health etc. Exactly the same arguments. Did ZOS react? yes. When it finally becomes clear to them this addon is excluding one of the core classes from pvp, I seriously hope for the sake of the competitive game they adress this issue as well.

Valencer wrote: »

killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »

may your balls grow as small as peas and your beard fall off your right chin only. May your deodorants always smell of elderberries and your girlfriends race be rodents. May your ego inflate enough to fly away and your game designers shut you down.

He is not even considering replying in a constructive way to the most obvious flaws in his logic. Look I can FLYYY and shoot from 300 feets away and since I am Miats I must be allowed to!!11! hes mad as a cup of tea with bacon flavour


All his argumenst can be cooked down to that; I am Miats therefore I must not be killed.

Except this addon doesnt prevent him from dying at all and thats not what he's saying.

I fire a crystal frag at you, you can see the animation of me casting the spell and after that the projectile flying at you, without any addons. This addon then also adds an UI notification to that.

The only time when this gives you any kind of advantage is if Im not in your field of view, which means Im either trying to jump you from stealth or hitting you in your back (while youre more than likely busy fighting other people). In both cases Ive got a huge opening advantage so who the heck even cares?

Much ado about nothing

False, there are lots of times when players are in your field of view and they hit you with projectiles you may not have seen coming.

Valencer wrote: »

Then it should be easy for you to come up with an example or 2

When you are solo kiting a zerg on an elevated platform.
When you are in stealth facing oncoming players.
When you are fighting AvA in high numbers.
When you use other players to obstruct your casting animations.
When you use a corner to los.

.... I can keep going if you want.

Dorrino wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

When you are solo kiting a zerg on an elevated platform.
When you are in stealth facing oncoming players.
When you are fighting AvA in high numbers.
When you use other players to obstruct your casting animations.
When you use a corner to los.

.... I can keep going if you want.

Hm, isn't all that a perfect set of examples why to use my addon's notification feature?^_^

No, its a perfect example of why your add-on contributes to the already disastrous one dimensional play, because it eliminates the use of long range strategic play.

Cathexis wrote: »

No, its a perfect example of why your add-on contributes to the already disastrous one dimensional play, because it eliminates the use of long range strategic play.

None of your examples involved strategic play of any kind. On the contrary - all of them described combat situations where additional awareness (besides the limitations of the 'window in 3d world) is very much welcomed.

Any purely visual perks we have in the real world (parallax shift, binocular vision, high motion sensitivity of side field of view etc) are not available through a computer screen. What you can see is more or less like looking through a small peephole with one eye.

I find it quite misleading to say that 'this is the world, use only 3d information!', because this 3d information is highly limited compared to what we got used to in our lives. This is fake 3d, a bad imitation and i really don't see why would we start pretending it's adequate.

Some people don't see this difference. Some other people THINK they don't see the difference. But it is there and it's so large that a simple visual alert my addon provides is suddenly 'night and day' for some people.

Your claim that this notification somehow 'limits strategic play' is very similar to saying 'fighting with both eyes and ears open doesn't leave a place for thinking and strategic choices'. Not sure why some people prefer to see less than more, but in any case having more information and of better quality can only lead to better gameplay choices.

I urge you to really think about it.

If you want to play a 2d version of ESO just go here

http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime

No, no and no. Using my logic players needs to be made aware about what's happening to THEM is the most clear way possible. In my mind only THAT can make pvp environment truly challenging and skillful. When each participant is satisfied with the amount, type and clarity of information being fed to him. ONLY then we can start talking about awareness and complexity. Before that it's a mudpool filled with shadows.

So does that mean you are going to make players who don't use your add-on aware that you are using it before you engage them since it provides you with an unanticipated advantage if I am unaware of it? How can I anticipate that you are using an add-on that will boost your ability to avoid my attacks to a level that is always 1/3 of the minimum time required to hit a target and doesn't require any situational awareness. How is THAT any less of a mudpool.

As I said before, if you are given all the information before hand, it makes an entire battle calculated. There is no risk involved. Thats why we have battles now where players show up on either side, and if one side has a certain number of players beyond a mathematical threshold, that side wins.

Its not a mudpool filled with shadows, its a margin of guesswork and prediction. Prediction is a skill.

No. I'm trying to make EVERYTHING clearly presented. Not ranged, not melee. E-very-thing. See above.

Yet you conveniently overlook the fact that you have created an unbreakable dodge paradigm.

And the environment STILL stays '3d'. You just 'open your other eye' and thus have better grasp on '3d-ness' of the environment. Nothing in the notifications takes away from 3d complexity. You seem to (and your example strengthens this) equate complexity of the 3d environment with the complexity of PERCEPTION of the said environment. In other words it feels like if player can perceive what's going on, this will reduce complexity. In my mind if any game is made in this way - this is a bad game. It means the gameplay itself is too simple, so developers need to obscure it by making environment intentionally vague. Since, again, due to interfacing media limitations the perception is already highly limited and overcoming THIS perceptional gap is a feat on its own

Yes, creating those obstructions are ways of increasing the skill level required. If you can't see it, you can't react to it. You're add-on circumvents the need to actually see anything happening beyond the surface area of your "window to that world." Which brings me back to my example of the game being reduced to one button push and a combat log entry.

The thing is as i said above the environment is not 3d. And thus the complexity of wayfaring in a 3d environment is being held back by the limitations of the input and output media.

It's hard to notice some attacks not because the player lacks some hard-to-define skill quality, but because of the limitations of the said media.

It is a 3d environment. It may be predicated on 2d variables, but the ability to translate that to a 3d environment allows for the creation of more complex and interesting dynamics. What you are proposing is to flatten those dynamics and essentially make the 3d environment just a cutscene.

Lets say you go bowling.
The goal to beat your opponent is to get a higher score. Do you run up the isle every turn and kick down the pins to ensure a 100% outcome?

No because thats not bowling anymore its just kicking over bowling pins. The whole act of needing to actually bowl is gone.

Just because you know you can get a strike, doesn't mean you always will.

Furthermore, I would even make the argument that this margin is what allows for players to do great things and make impossible plays, and that the fact that it has been deminished is what has led to the overwhelming predictability of pvp.

Cathexis wrote: »

So does that mean you are going to make players who don't use your add-on aware that you are using it before you engage them since it provides you with an unanticipated advantage if I am unaware of it?

If the player don't anticipate my addon he's a new pvp player and he's not anticipating a lot of more important things. Thus this point is irrelevant.

Cathexis wrote: »

How can I anticipate that you are using an add-on that will boost your ability to avoid my attacks to a level that is always 1/3 of the minimum time required to hit a target and doesn't require any situational awareness. How is THAT any less of a mudpool.

You numbers are quite weird. 1/3 of what time exactly? Or flight time? Then it's wrong. Of animation time? Then we're talking about 0.2-0.3 sec at most. And this is irrelevant.

Cathexis wrote: »

doesn't require any situational awareness

On the contrary. To be able to properly react you need to be aware about the whole battlefield. Something that is heaps harder to do without this addon. As i said the addon shows you MORE things thus while using it the complexity of battle drastically increases.

Cathexis wrote: »

As I said before, if you are given all the information before hand, it makes an entire battle calculated.

This is false considering randomnes of the game, incomplete information even with the addon and limits of human perception capability. It's irrelevant that addon informs you about 6 attacks if your perceptional limit is 3.

Cathexis wrote: »

There is no risk involved. Thats why we have battles now where players show up on either side, and if one side has a certain number of players beyond a mathematical threshold, that side wins.

This is demonstrably wrong. Both because gross overestimation of addon's general influence and particular overestimation of addon's usefulness in equal skill battles.

Cathexis wrote: »

Its not a mudpool filled with shadows, its a margin of guesswork and prediction. Prediction is a skill.

Nobody ever can take prediction away from you. If using the addon allows you to predict the outcome with high degree of precision (as opposed to not having the addon) i urge you to log on pts (or NA server if you have a char there) and fight me. I'll post my evaluation of your effectiveness with and without the addon in this thread.

Cathexis wrote: »

Yet you conveniently overlook the fact that you have created an unbreakable dodge paradigm.

This is demonstrably wrong as i keep writing in multiple posts:)

Since you skipped my response about number of dodges and how bad that is for the 'dodger' i don't really know how can you hold this paradigm in the light of rebuttal.

Cathexis wrote: »

Yes, creating those obstructions are ways of increasing the skill level required.

As i said i fully disagree with this point. The only thing obstructions can create is drastic REDUCTION of skill required since you introduce randomness based on limits of human perception.

Cathexis wrote: »

If you can't see it, you can't react to it.

Exactly. No hints for response - no response - no skill required.

Cathexis wrote: »

You're add-on circumvents the need to actually see anything happening beyond the surface area of your "window to that world."

And thus making the 'effective world' richer, more complex and more fun.

Cathexis wrote: »

Which brings me back to my example of the game being reduced to one button push and a combat log entry.

Unfortunately extreme 'examples' like this serve only one purpose - to ridicule the subject:(

Cathexis wrote: »

It is a 3d environment. It may be predicated on 2d variables, but the ability to translate that to a 3d environment allows for the creation of more complex and interesting dynamics.

Not because it's 3d:) It's only because of the sheer NUMBER of different things that effect you at once in this particular game. The game environment is not even 'the 3d', since 3rd degree of freedom is usually unavailable to traverse for the players. It's mostly 2d with some special cases.

Cathexis wrote: »

What you are proposing is to flatten those dynamics and essentially make the 3d environment just a cutscene.

Not in the slightest. If you can find anything in what i wrote that makes this hint - please let me know and i'll apologize for bad wording.

Cathexis wrote: »

Lets say you go bowling.
The goal to beat your opponent is to get a higher score. Do you run up the isle every turn and kick down the pins to ensure a 100% outcome?

No because thats not bowling anymore its just kicking over bowling pins. The whole act of needing to actually bowl is gone.

Just because you know you can get a strike, doesn't mean you always will.

You need to proof that this example is indeed very much relevant to the subject.

Cathexis wrote: »

Furthermore, I would even make the argument that this margin is what allows for players to do great things and make impossible plays, and that the fact that it has been deminished is what has led to the overwhelming predictability of pvp.

I fail to see where you're coming from with this. Ability 'to do great things and make impossible plays' can only flourish with the increased awareness. Unless by 'impossible plays' you mean something purely random, i.e. totally devoid of any skill involved.

Cathexis wrote: »

The issue is not just obscurity, if you look at human reaction times your add-on effectively allows you to react in 1/3 of the time it takes to be hit by a casted ability, consistently, with 0 situational awareness required.

As i said above i have zero idea how you were able to come up with this number.

PS. I'm serious about evaluating your battle effectiveness with and without the addon. This would be the best demonstration of the addon's influence on the individual gameplay and since you keep on insisting that this influence is huge i can only expect from you a high level play there. I swear i'll put the detailed feedback in the thread as i promised above:)

Dorrino wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

So does that mean you are going to make players who don't use your add-on aware that you are using it before you engage them since it provides you with an unanticipated advantage if I am unaware of it?

If the player don't anticipate my addon he's a new pvp player and he's not anticipating a lot of more important things. Thus this point is irrelevant.

Cathexis wrote: »

How can I anticipate that you are using an add-on that will boost your ability to avoid my attacks to a level that is always 1/3 of the minimum time required to hit a target and doesn't require any situational awareness. How is THAT any less of a mudpool.

You numbers are quite weird. 1/3 of what time exactly? Or flight time? Then it's wrong. Of animation time? Then we're talking about 0.2-0.3 sec at most. And this is irrelevant.

Cathexis wrote: »

doesn't require any situational awareness

On the contrary. To be able to properly react you need to be aware about the whole battlefield. Something that is heaps harder to do without this addon. As i said the addon shows you MORE things thus while using it the complexity of battle drastically increases.

Cathexis wrote: »

As I said before, if you are given all the information before hand, it makes an entire battle calculated.

This is false considering randomnes of the game, incomplete information even with the addon and limits of human perception capability. It's irrelevant that addon informs you about 6 attacks if your perceptional limit is 3.

Cathexis wrote: »

There is no risk involved. Thats why we have battles now where players show up on either side, and if one side has a certain number of players beyond a mathematical threshold, that side wins.

This is demonstrably wrong. Both because gross overestimation of addon's general influence and particular overestimation of addon's usefulness in equal skill battles.

Cathexis wrote: »

Its not a mudpool filled with shadows, its a margin of guesswork and prediction. Prediction is a skill.

Nobody ever can take prediction away from you. If using the addon allows you to predict the outcome with high degree of precision (as opposed to not having the addon) i urge you to log on pts (or NA server if you have a char there) and fight me. I'll post my evaluation of your effectiveness with and without the addon in this thread.

Cathexis wrote: »

Yet you conveniently overlook the fact that you have created an unbreakable dodge paradigm.

This is demonstrably wrong as i keep writing in multiple posts:)

Since you skipped my response about number of dodges and how bad that is for the 'dodger' i don't really know how can you hold this paradigm in the light of rebuttal.

Cathexis wrote: »

Yes, creating those obstructions are ways of increasing the skill level required.

As i said i fully disagree with this point. The only thing obstructions can create is drastic REDUCTION of skill required since you introduce randomness based on limits of human perception.

Cathexis wrote: »

If you can't see it, you can't react to it.

Exactly. No hints for response - no response - no skill required.

Cathexis wrote: »

You're add-on circumvents the need to actually see anything happening beyond the surface area of your "window to that world."

And thus making the 'effective world' richer, more complex and more fun.

Cathexis wrote: »

Which brings me back to my example of the game being reduced to one button push and a combat log entry.

Unfortunately extreme 'examples' like this serve only one purpose - to ridicule the subject:(

Cathexis wrote: »

It is a 3d environment. It may be predicated on 2d variables, but the ability to translate that to a 3d environment allows for the creation of more complex and interesting dynamics.

Not because it's 3d:) It's only because of the sheer NUMBER of different things that effect you at once in this particular game. The game environment is not even 'the 3d', since 3rd degree of freedom is usually unavailable to traverse for the players. It's mostly 2d with some special cases.

Cathexis wrote: »

What you are proposing is to flatten those dynamics and essentially make the 3d environment just a cutscene.

Not in the slightest. If you can find anything in what i wrote that makes this hint - please let me know and i'll apologize for bad wording.

Cathexis wrote: »

Lets say you go bowling.
The goal to beat your opponent is to get a higher score. Do you run up the isle every turn and kick down the pins to ensure a 100% outcome?

No because thats not bowling anymore its just kicking over bowling pins. The whole act of needing to actually bowl is gone.

Just because you know you can get a strike, doesn't mean you always will.

You need to proof that this example is indeed very much relevant to the subject.

Cathexis wrote: »

Furthermore, I would even make the argument that this margin is what allows for players to do great things and make impossible plays, and that the fact that it has been deminished is what has led to the overwhelming predictability of pvp.

I fail to see where you're coming from with this. Ability 'to do great things and make impossible plays' can only flourish with the increased awareness. Unless by 'impossible plays' you mean something purely random, i.e. totally devoid of any skill involved.

Cathexis wrote: »

The issue is not just obscurity, if you look at human reaction times your add-on effectively allows you to react in 1/3 of the time it takes to be hit by a casted ability, consistently, with 0 situational awareness required.

As i said above i have zero idea how you were able to come up with this number.

PS. I'm serious about evaluating your battle effectiveness with and without the addon. This would be the best demonstration of the addon's influence on the individual gameplay and since you keep on insisting that this influence is huge i can only expect from you a high level play there. I swear i'll put the detailed feedback in the thread as i promised above:)

http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime

I actually overestimated the amount if time required. Human benchmark pegs the median at 215ms. It takes at least 1s for a timer attack to hit (not including the time a projectile takes to hit a target). If you know a projectile is coming AS SOON AS IT IS BEING CAST that means you have almost 5x the necessary window to respond, and your addon not only allows you to respond immediately every single time, it allows you to respond up to 5x faster than a person who isnt running it, because it removes any need to have situational awareness for visual cues. It effectively boils down fighting range attacks to "do I have stamina." The margin for error on the players part is "I forgot to press the button." The queues that inherently exist are fundamentally good because they are subtle.

As for a person being new to the game and not anticipating, you already made the argument these are the people you are trying to help and that everyone predicts so thats a direct contradiction.

We also discussed that there are hints and there are strategies and that you just arent using them.

My example of having a single button function as combat entirely on a 2 dimensional world was not ridicule, that is what you end up with if you subscribe to the philosophy that a 3d world is no better than a 2d one. You end up with a game where it's just "who can press the buttons the best sequentially."

As i said i fully disagree with this point. The only thing obstructions can create is drastic REDUCTION of skill required since you introduce randomness based on limits of human perception.

Yes, and that variability requires practice to create consistency, and it is not 100% reliable. It is abstract, which means it leaves margin for error. Your addon drastically deminishes the margin for error, and makes combat excessively predictable. It reduces it to "who's build has better numbers." Its the exact same as running an infinite block build.

The only thing you need in the video game is the motion, which you have in order to dodge an object. Anything else is extra, which you would not have naturally in order to dodge an object; even the deaf can dodge things they can see.

Anyone who thinks the games UI is inadequate in order to effective make good decisions is *** themselves, you are NOT humanly capable of making the decisions you do if you get additional information in which you would NEVER have as a human being otherwise.

Dorrino wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

The only thing you need in the video game is the motion, which you have in order to dodge an object. Anything else is extra, which you would not have naturally in order to dodge an object; even the deaf can dodge things they can see.

Anyone who thinks the games UI is inadequate in order to effective make good decisions is *** themselves, you are NOT humanly capable of making the decisions you do if you get additional information in which you would NEVER have as a human being otherwise.

While this in understandable it's completely wrong when applied to video games. Any video game has its 2d interface which contains the MOST important information to react to. I'm not going to repeat myself about limits of game media interfaces and human perception so i will refer you to this post instead.

On a side note, out of all things motion has the worst representation in a video game media, since for us, humans, our area of the highest motion sensitivity - peripheral vision - is NOT properly activated when looking on a 2d screen in front of us. See my comparison with 'looking through a peephole with one eye' in a post above.

I am a Psych Major and a Military Veteran, I don't need you to tell me how perception works, I am quite the expert in the field both figuratively and literally.

There are enhanced perceptual benefits in the game already, period. There is really no argument because it does not exist.

A player already gets everything they need in the game to detect the stimulus as humanly possible, claiming the game is inadequate is false, there is already more than enough information in the game needed to respond; no additional information is needed unless the player themselves are inadequate at detecting stimuli.

There is already more stimuli in the game needed to make a decision, the fact that a person needs extra means individual is not capable of actually making the decision unless the game tells the otherwise, meaning they're not good on their own merits, period.