I dont find his replies levelheaded at all. I find them disturbing. He is clearly in believe HE is entitled to make the game the way himself can benefit the most for it. How that is annihilating anything except the integrity of the developers of the game is beyond my comprehension. In any other game abything disturbing the rock/paper/scissor model would be struck hard down upon, while the Zenimax developers clearly does not understand what is happening. That itself doesnt justify what he is doing. If I made a mod which allowed me to fly (which is possible with the game engine, dont think otherwise), gain infinite immunity to damage (also very possible) and raised my skillcap to 6000 (same) and used the exact same logic Dorrino is using, would it be annihilating the complainers as well.

You should instead be thankful for those raising the seriousness of player made addons biasing gameplay against one specific group of players, ranged classes. Bear in mind the same addon maker used exactly the same arguments to why he should be allowed to know exactly where stealthed players where, what they were doing and their stats. Exactly the same. And he is still advocating it. Are we still within boundaries of well deserved punishment? It has nothing to do with resource-exploiting 1vx builds anymore, and how it is skilled play. It is an addon which eliminates ranged play totally. It doesnt matter what situation anymore. I find it usually happening in keep defences, where the zerg used this addon to effectively avoiding anything stopping them (ranged attacks), or the zergballs running around in melee annihilating anything in its way (melle ofc) and dodging 100% effectively anything ranged targeting them. This is an addon which FURTHER encourages zergballs, and makes it even easier and more appealing to group up in a melee ulti bomb. How that is a well deserved punishment for lonely stealthers I fail to understand.

Yeah....you guys, let it go, you're getting trolled... Miat is not an idiot, and he knows the answers to the questions he's asking already. It's tongue-in-cheek. He just wants you to state the answers in your own words so that he can pick them apart with terminology and technicality. This isn't a helpful discussion at all.

...but Miat's opinion of stealth play seems set in stone. He just has the advantage of being able to make neat addons to support those opinions, whereas most of us don't.

I mean, just think. What if we found ways to code addons that invalidated other playstyles or builds that we personally found cheesy, cheap, or cancerous (each of those terms being completely relative and defined only by the user)? Imagine the possibilities! We as a community have a great track record when it comes to knowing what is truly good for the game, so I say, let's just balance it ourselves.

^This actually convinced me that there is nothing to be gained from this argument. @killimandrosb16_ESO You can't have a productive discussion with someone so passionate about the subject.

Valencer wrote: »

The more I read about this the more I get the impression this addon is mostly giving grief to the kind of players who spend their whole PvP time sniping people who are already getting mobbed by 5 other guys.

I dont see how this addon can possibly be a big deal in a "fair" fight, and that's coming from someone that doesnt actually use it (yet).

This is *exactly* when it's useful. If you are getting zerged, it doesn't help. In a zerg v zerg fight there's too much stuff going on anyway. If you are getting one-shot ganked, you are dead before the notification pops up. If you are fighting one or two, it's redundant. But if you are fighting off 3+ people and then one of those guys that does nothing but Xv1 gank shows up, it's VERY useful to see that name pop up.

I don't see how this is any different from a playability/fairness standpoint than a debuff tracker that shows you have poison injection on you that was an animation cancelled 100% invisible attack. Or that gankers, while totally invisible, can see who has a radiant magelight buff up, or is a vamp or WW. Or why Miat takes so much grief when pretty much every other interface add-on has the same "dodge now" type feature, just without the name attached.

The camp notification on death screen is pretty cool too. The rest I have turned off.

Leandor wrote: »

I just love to read these levelheaded replies of @Dorrino totally annihilating all those so-called pros that think of one shot ganking and resource-exploiting 1vX builds as "skilled play".

Jajajaja if you think hes annihilating arguments your dreaming. You just agree with him that long range styles are cheese probably because you have the same issue with ganks.

The_Outsider wrote: »

Yeah....you guys, let it go, you're getting trolled... Miat is not an idiot, and he knows the answers to the questions he's asking already. It's tongue-in-cheek. He just wants you to state the answers in your own words so that he can pick them apart with terminology and technicality. This isn't a helpful discussion at all.

...but Miat's opinion of stealth play seems set in stone. He just has the advantage of being able to make neat addons to support those opinions, whereas most of us don't.

I mean, just think. What if we found ways to code addons that invalidated other playstyles or builds that we personally found cheesy, cheap, or cancerous (each of those terms being completely relative and defined only by the user)? Imagine the possibilities! We as a community have a great track record when it comes to knowing what is truly good for the game, so I say, let's just balance it ourselves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqEq8mxwt2M

^This actually convinced me that there is nothing to be gained from this argument. @killimandrosb16_ESO You can't have a productive discussion with someone so passionate about the subject.

The issue I have with the notion that it has 0 drawbacks is that that isnt true. There is counterplay. The counterplay is just pre-emptive. The counterplay is learning where you are going to get hit with gank.

In that discussion in that video, that point that he needs to make a sacrifice is right. It does ruin your build, thats the point. Im not saying it should be that way but thats the overall game balance. But I would make the argument that you yourself miat you are playing a gank style with such low health and medium armor. Nightblades are inherently balanced for optimized close range gank style. Your addon mostly prevents people from playing long range gank/kite which is predominantly the sorcerer style.

Can you see now, how by circumventing the need to balance defensively, you've created a normally mathematically impossible competitive edge?

That said, I AGREE with the idea that the high damage high survivability tradeoff, as a separate issue, is bullshjt. It means that if you arent a tank class, you are relegated to gank style combat.

after the rage outburst you had in that video because you DIED to a stealthed player...I can hardly take you serious anymore...sorry...but you showed your true colours there. Only thing I see is someone who can not effectively respond to certain playstyles, and finds the only logical solution to remove these playstyles. Take the insults you like but theyre truly and very honest.

killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »

after the rage outburst you had in that video because you DIED to a stealthed player...I can hardly take you serious anymore...sorry...but you showed your true colours there. Only thing I see is someone who can not effectively respond to certain playstyles, and finds the only logical solution to remove these playstyles. Take the insults you like but theyre truly and very honest.

This is fine that you have a bad opinion about a person you don't know.

This is NOT fine to express this opinion on a public forum like this.

If you keep doing it, at best the thread will be locked. At worst you'll get banned and the thread will be locked.

If you want to discuss me - feel free to use PMs. Thank you!

Dorrino wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Jajajaja if you think hes annihilating arguments your dreaming. You just agree with him that long range styles are cheese probably because you have the same issue with ganks.

Can we assume that some people disagree that 'long range styles are cheese' and are capable to justify their option?:)

Cathexis wrote: »

The issue I have with the notion that it has 0 drawbacks is that that isnt true. There is counterplay. The counterplay is just pre-emptive. The counterplay is learning where you are going to get hit with gank.

The playstyle doesn't have drawbacks. 'Counterplay' is a different way of saying 'way not to die'. If people don't die from say stealth ganks it doesn't mean there's a drawback in the playstyle:)

Cathexis wrote: »

In that discussion in that video, that point that he needs to make a sacrifice is right. It does ruin your build, thats the point. Im not saying it should be that way but thats the overall game balance.

This isn't 'overall game balance'. This is 'not-heavy armor game balance'. As it was discussed in the video medium armor does not allow for compromises. Keep in mind though, the video is quite old. Since then stealth ganks were toned down (besides onslaught ganks).

Cathexis wrote: »

But I would make the argument that you yourself miat you are playing a gank style with such low health and medium armor.

This is incorrect. 20-21k hp is what you get in medium armor. In any build, unless you start stacking hp.

Cathexis wrote: »

Nightblades are inherently balanced for optimized close range gank style.

Unfortunately i fail to follow you here. Gank usually means unexpected attack with high burst. Nightblades are quite the same with other classes in this respect unless they play special builds (called gank builds). And this is not my case.

Cathexis wrote: »

Your addon mostly prevents people from playing long range gank/kite which is predominantly the sorcerer style.

As i asked at least 4-5 times already please describe the problems a 'long range gank/kite' build has with regards of my addon. What exactly they have to try to do to get denied by the addon?

This can't be 1vx, since random dodge of frags is not crucial there.

This can't be 1v1, because as outlined above frags are noticeable enough in 1v1 without any additional notifications.

If this is xv1 - i STILL fail to understand how can you get denied there. By definition of xv1 you have more than you ganging up on 1 target. Your efforts can't solely determine the outcome.

Nightblades do not have the same tanking viability as a dk or temp and do not have the same mobility as a sorcerer.

You are correct about the health issue in medium armor. But in the current state of the game, the need to sacrifice offense for defense is the current state of the game. That is the balance. I know this because I faced the same exact build problem when dark brotherhood dropped. You just haven't solved it using in game variables yet.

I get it is an infuriating problem.
On a sorc, you cant have enough melee damage and tanking stats at the same time to be effective at either one.

If its a similar issue on a nightblade... you just have to find the balance and combat dynamic that works.

killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »

I know you from how you expressed yourself in that video...which is concerning enough...

I'm not sure what is concerning about an expression of a sad state medium armor were at that time. The only point in the video was that there was no counterplay for med armor nightblades to oneshot proc ganks.

killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »

then I know you from the way you decide you do not want to face ranged players unaware...

I honestly fail to see how anybody would want to face anybody unaware. Especcially since, as we finally figured out, 'ranged players' means bow gank nightblades sniping from stealth. Would you want to be unaware about them sniping you for 8-11k a pop?

killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »

program eliminating a major part of the WvW options available...which is unacceptable and the reason why I have both reported the addon and this thread.

I'm really sorry to hear how these notifications eliminated major part of your options available.

killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »

How this will get me banned, I dont know,

Having a limited gameplay options in pvp won't get you banned.

Being aggressive towards and insulting another player on the forums - will.

killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »

but fortunately you can not make a MOD to remove posts questioning your ambitions towards changing the game to your catering...that must be frustrating

I enjoy people questioning my stuff as long as they don't become personal.

It'd be really weird for me to want to hear only praise.

killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »

edit; and since you effectively avoid the core of the problem, always returning to the 1vx situation which I personally never find myself in, it makes your arguments even more hollow. Most gameplay in Cyrodiil TF is centered around zergs vs zergbusters, or sieges. In these situations having a 100% dodge rate against the ranged damage dealers effectively takes the scissor away and leaves the rock and paper. Which one you are, is obvious...

I'm putting quite a bit of effort to try to understand what this problem is.

Now you told me you never 1vx. You mentioned zergs so i can assume you're not talking about 1v1.

Please tell me how having my addon helps zergs in any imaginable manner.

What are the 'scissors' applied to zergs?

One brave nightblade bow ganker?:)

killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »

Ultimately the poster making me aware of your video and then testifying that you indeed understand the reason, you just want the cake for yourself, is correct.

Even setting aside the point that everybody run the same addon as i do - what cake are we talking about? 1vx zergs on a stamblade?:)

Dorrino wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

^This actually convinced me that there is nothing to be gained from this argument. @killimandrosb16_ESO You can't have a productive discussion with someone so passionate about the subject.

Keep in mind guys - personal insults definitely cross the line of any productive discussion.

The only thing you will achieve with these - is this thread getting locked.

Please muster your will and refrain from similar remarks in a public forum in the future.
I welcome productive discussion so please keep your emotions under control. Thank you!

I'm not insulting you, I'm merely stating the fact that you are passionate about the subject (with evidence), and how I think that makes it harder to have a productive discussion. That said, you are right about people's frustrations:

I understand you're frustrated and i can assure you never in the addon's development there was an intent to make people feel bad.

The original features (now removed) and the current heavy attack notifications have caused an equal amount of frustration to folks with long range play styles as you yourself have experienced in combating them. In this situation, the difference is, players with long range play styles (snipe, staff or bow heavys, Assassin's Will ect) cannot code an addon to invalidate your melee burst build, whereas you can and have done that to their's.

I think a further measure of empathy toward the players your addon effects will go a long way in realizing just how it buffs your build/play style, and nerfs theirs. I trust @Cathexis to argue the finer points and technicalities, I've no energy for that, lol.

Now I reported ALL my posts in this section, which could be slightly offensive. Hopefully it might give some sort of response. I already unstalled the game until the addon is removed, as I am a ranged damage dealer. In one way or another gameplay will change for me

Come on now, don't do that!

v

Dorrino wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

You are correct about the health issue in medium armor. But in the current state of the game, the need to sacrifice offense for defense is the current state of the game. That is the balance. I know this because I faced the same exact build problem when dark brotherhood dropped. You just haven't solved it using in game variables yet.

The problem with medium armor stamblade indeed does have a solution - to play in heavy armor:)

No other solutions ultimately work.

However this is indeed irrelevant to the subject of this thread. We're discussing how ethical/gamebreaking is to have these notifications, not medium armor problems.

It is not irrelevant to the thread, you aren't supposed to be able to be unbreakable in the current game balance, with the exception of healthstack>block>healspam builds on cp servers which are blatantly overpowered and need to be removed. Every design has at least one if not some weaknesses. Nightblades are such a high damage orrientation that to play in medium armor accelerates your offensive advantage even further. It makes sense given the current balance you at the very least would be vulnerable to being ganked as well. That is currently how counterplay is working. It isn't working like "Player does X and it counters Y." YES, it is stupid. YES, it is simplified. Its like pokemon now. Its dumb as ***. This is the stupidity I have been campaigning against on the forums regularly on the forums, the balance has become "Player X shows up as Y, which counters players who are Z but is countered by players who are A."

killimandrosb16_ESO wrote: »

no you know the problem, you just dont care because it caters to how you play the game, and since you can not deal with ranged damage dealers in a coherent way you decide to eliminate that threat. Does it make you honourable in any way? Yes, a hackers honour, or a p2w honour, but skillwise, not so much. You discovered the flaws in your own gameplay, which is reasonably well, but you fail to counter them, which is not so ok. Solution? eliminate the players your playstyle can not counter.

Most gameplay in Cyrodiil TF is centered around zergs vs zergbusters, or sieges. In these situations having a 100% dodge rate against the ranged damage dealers effectively takes the scissor away and leaves the rock and paper.

Ultimately you dont want ranged damage dealers

Now I reported ALL my posts in this section, which could be slightly offensive. Hopefully it might give some sort of response. I already unstalled the game until the addon is removed, as I am a ranged damage dealer. In one way or another gameplay will change for me

This is the point I am making, it collapses an entire element of play in the game that is interesting and dynamic because it isn't predictable from the limited scope of a gankblade design.

The_Outsider wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

^This actually convinced me that there is nothing to be gained from this argument. @killimandrosb16_ESO You can't have a productive discussion with someone so passionate about the subject.

Keep in mind guys - personal insults definitely cross the line of any productive discussion.

The only thing you will achieve with these - is this thread getting locked.

Please muster your will and refrain from similar remarks in a public forum in the future.
I welcome productive discussion so please keep your emotions under control. Thank you!

I'm not insulting you, I'm merely stating the fact that you are passionate about the subject (with evidence), and how I think that makes it harder to have a productive discussion. That said, you are right about people's frustrations:

I understand you're frustrated and i can assure you never in the addon's development there was an intent to make people feel bad.

The original features (now removed) and the current heavy attack notifications have caused an equal amount of frustration to folks with long range play styles as you yourself have experienced in combating them. In this situation, the difference is, players with long range play styles (snipe, staff or bow heavys, Assassin's Will ect) cannot code an addon to invalidate your melee burst build, whereas you can and have done that to their's.

I think a further measure of empathy toward the players your addon effects will go a long way in realizing just how it buffs your build/play style, and nerfs theirs. I trust @Cathexis to argue the finer points and technicalities, I've no energy for that, lol.

Its not just that range builds have become invalidated, its that once you eliminate range variables completely, there are builds which arguably become uncounterable, because there is no need to compensate for the risk of being ganked in a damage vs health dynamic.

The_Outsider wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

The_Outsider wrote: »

^This actually convinced me that there is nothing to be gained from this argument. @killimandrosb16_ESO You can't have a productive discussion with someone so passionate about the subject.

Keep in mind guys - personal insults definitely cross the line of any productive discussion.

The only thing you will achieve with these - is this thread getting locked.

Please muster your will and refrain from similar remarks in a public forum in the future.
I welcome productive discussion so please keep your emotions under control. Thank you!

I'm not insulting you, I'm merely stating the fact that you are passionate about the subject (with evidence), and how I think that makes it harder to have a productive discussion. That said, you are right about people's frustrations:

I understand you're frustrated and i can assure you never in the addon's development there was an intent to make people feel bad.

The original features (now removed) and the current heavy attack notifications have caused an equal amount of frustration to folks with long range play styles as you yourself have experienced in combating them. In this situation, the difference is, players with long range play styles (snipe, staff or bow heavys, Assassin's Will ect) cannot code an addon to invalidate your melee burst build, whereas you can and have done that to their's.

I think a further measure of empathy toward the players your addon effects will go a long way in realizing just how it buffs your build/play style, and nerfs theirs. I trust @Cathexis to argue the finer points and technicalities, I've no energy for that, lol.

Its not just that range builds have become invalidated, its that once you eliminate range variables completely, there are builds which arguably become uncounterable, because there is no need to compensate for the risk of being ganked in a damage vs health dynamic.

Right and these are the issues we run into when the community takes balance into our own hands. As much as ZOS gets flak for their decisions, they are correct a far higher % of the time than the community (*cough*destroUlt) and... again it's their job to create balance, not ours. Much of my issue with PVP Alerts had to do with the original anti-stealth functions which have now been disallowed. I would still prefer that the heavy attack function was disallowed as well, but I'll have to pick my battles.

I think of CP. Much of the balance issue with CP is that it removes the weaknesses of builds. Why enchant my large pieces with Tri-glyphs, for example, to compensate for burst damage, when I have a tool like this at my disposal?

Cathexis wrote: »

Nightblades are such a high damage orrientation that to play in medium armor accelerates your offensive advantage even further.

Unfortunately this is incorrect and thus invalidates the following point.

Heavy armor users have higher damage output than medium stamblades. This is partially because heavy armor puts everything into damage while medium has to use additional regen to stay alive (i uise 2 stam regen glyphs on a khajiit). And partially because heavy armor has sets giving higher overall damage than medium. Common examples are fury and ravager.

This way medium armor is not a glass cannon choice. It's just glass.

I play it solely because i enjoy active defense playstyle (dodges, timed blocks) more than passive defense (damage reduction, perma blocks, high heals). There's no damage advantage, thus no justification for

Cathexis wrote: »

It makes sense given the current balance you at the very least would be vulnerable to being ganked as well.

Cathexis wrote: »

This is the point I am making, it collapses an entire element of play in the game that is interesting and dynamic because it isn't predictable from the limited scope of a gankblade design.

And yet i still don't see how xv1'ing from the bushes is 'interesting and dynamic' might be my limited perspective though.

Cathexis wrote: »

Its not just that range builds have become invalidated, its that once you eliminate range variables completely, there are builds which arguably become uncounterable, because there is no need to compensate for the risk of being ganked in a damage vs health dynamic.

This is theoretically true, but unfortunately demonstrably false.

Tanky builds are uncounterable regardless (think hard counters, not zerging them down). Squishy builds are easily killable when the user makes a mistake. If this is not the essence of skilled play (the user find or fails to find a response strategy) i don't really know what is.

The_Outsider wrote: »

Passion is defined as: strong and barely controllable emotion, or Passionate: showing or caused by strong feelings or a strong belief. I feel this word was appropriate to describe the intensity of those emotions.

And this is exactly what i meant by 'failing to interpret my emotions'.

Even though i sounded quite passionate i wasn't. Some people tend to sound way more emotional they feel they are.

In the video i was replying to a question. I played it in a way i was 'omfganrgy' because i wanted to do that in a response to a friend to make him feel the problem.

And keep in mind the discussion had nothing to do with the current one.

The_Outsider wrote: »

I'm sincerely sorry you feel insulted and attacked by that statement, it was not my intent, forgive me.

I'm thriving to have a constructive discussion. Remarks like this have a danger to skew the whole thread into personal attacks and counterattacks. I find it boring.

Unfortunately this is incorrect and thus invalidates the following point.

Heavy armor users have higher damage output than medium stamblades. This is partially because heavy armor puts everything into damage while medium has to use additional regen to stay alive (i uise 2 stam regen glyphs on a khajiit). And partially because heavy armor has sets giving higher overall damage than medium. Common examples are fury and ravager.

This way medium armor is not a glass cannon choice. It's just glass.

I play it solely because i enjoy active defense playstyle (dodges, timed blocks) more than passive defense (damage reduction, perma blocks, high heals). There's no damage advantage, thus no justification for

I fundamentally disagree. Medium provides significantly higher up front burst potential than heavy armor does. Heavy armor provides you with better defensive capacity and offensive capacity when you are in prolonged combat. The problem is you are trying to play a high maneuverability/low passive survivability burst armor type up close for prolonged combat, and then getting mad when you get ganked.

And yet i still don't see how xv1'ing from the bushes is 'interesting and dynamic' might be my limited perspective though.

For starters, the style actually is better suited to fighting more than one person, as one person alone. It also requires patience and careful planning. You would see how it is an interesting dynamic when you encounter other players who fight with similar styles, or when you fight a player who is persistent in pursuing in a stealth battle through open combat. It also often means playing with a high degree of vulnerability if you fail in an attempt. With regard to open kiting without stealth, it is significantly harder, since most abilities that you can use to actively kite with (at least on a stam sorc) don't generally do enough damage and it ends up being about searching for vulnerabilities, than about actually bursting your opponent down with adequate damage.

may your balls grow as small as peas and your beard fall off your right chin only. May your deodorants always smell of elderberries and your girlfriends race be rodents. May your ego inflate enough to fly away and your game designers shut you down.

He is not even considering replying in a constructive way to the most obvious flaws in his logic. Look I can FLYYY and shoot from 300 feets away and since I am Miats I must be allowed to!!11! hes mad as a cup of tea with bacon flavour


All his argumenst can be cooked down to that; I am Miats therefore I must not be killed.