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Warden compared to other classes: Lack of damage-dealing skills
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Artis✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Are you kidding me? Did you read the thread? Who cares about 10 damaging spells if only 3 are used? Cripple path and impale. MAYBE resolve - many are arguing that it's actually a DPS loss. You don't don't what numbers will wardens have too - their bear might result in huge DPS. Or scorch or that dot. No, sap essence is not used. Shades? What? Wardens have way more. They have an AOE debuff, they have tons of different heals, buffs and CC. Why are you forgetting about them? NBs only have other DPS skills that nobody is using except for play as you want crowd that doesn't care about efficiency. Well wardens have tons of utility skills to choose from - and those skills are actually useful.
I don't understand how you say nbs do the same when, as voah has listed, they have 10 damaging spells, of which at least 5 of them (cripple, path, merciless resolve, impale and sap essenec) are usually used on standard rotations, whereas warden's have 3 viable spells, if lucky, and dive doesn't get outparse by force pulse at close range, would be two (2) spells. Not even mentioning that nbs actually have at least 3 more that might be useful on some scenarios, strife, conceal weapon and shades, and warden doesn't even have that possibilty.
You seem to be missrepresenting warden's value to a team as a support and not by it's dps capabilities. Yes, they have some useful traits, but those are usually asigned to either tanks or healers. No one is gonna bring a warden dps cause of the major toughness (which actually is already provided for horns), or the portals displacements.
I get it none of you two are playing a magicka NB in endgame?
Horns are nt' up 100% sometimes, besides - that major aoe debuff alone is enough to have at least one warden. And what do NBs bring? nothing. And it's not NB you shoudl be looking at. There are sorcs and DK and templars. They deal way more DPS than NB already - more than enough to fill 8 group slots. And the portals - yes for sure. Just like people would bring DKs to vMOL just because of chains even if their dps was a bit lower.
And if Wardens have as high DPS as , say, NB - then there's no point to bring a NB, considering how much more a warden can give to a group.
[quote="Vaoh;3995933"
I'll main the Warden as a Magicka DPS forever once it launches. I'm just hoping it isn't as terrible as it sounds right now in this regard. Mag NB looks really strong right now
[/quote]
What? are you trolling? Where does NB look strong? Open the leaderboards or something. They are the lowest DPS and bring no utility compared to other classes. As a result - underrepresented on the leaderboards. You won't raid as a NB unless you have friends who will take you (and don't have better options at the moment of deciding).
Ajnd again - you can't say anything about wardens dps right now. For all we know , the bear alone will outdps a magicka NB. The number of skills doesn't matter if the skills hit so hard that the DPS is high.
Also, for all we know - it's gonna be an era of 50/50, no more pure healers if magicka wardens can also heal a lot.2 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
What? are you trolling? Where does NB look strong? Open the leaderboards or something. They are the lowest DPS and bring no utility compared to other classes. As a result - underrepresented on the leaderboards. You won't raid as a NB unless you have friends who will take you (and don't have better options at the moment of deciding).
Are you kidding me? Did you read the thread? Who cares about 10 damaging spells if only 3 are used? Cripple path and impale. MAYBE resolve - many are arguing that it's actually a DPS loss. You don't don't what numbers will wardens have too - their bear might result in huge DPS. Or scorch or that dot. No, sap essence is not used. Shades? What? Wardens have way more. They have an AOE debuff, they have tons of different heals, buffs and CC. Why are you forgetting about them? NBs only have other DPS skills that nobody is using except for play as you want crowd that doesn't care about efficiency. Well wardens have tons of utility skills to choose from - and those skills are actually useful.
I don't understand how you say nbs do the same when, as voah has listed, they have 10 damaging spells, of which at least 5 of them (cripple, path, merciless resolve, impale and sap essenec) are usually used on standard rotations, whereas warden's have 3 viable spells, if lucky, and dive doesn't get outparse by force pulse at close range, would be two (2) spells. Not even mentioning that nbs actually have at least 3 more that might be useful on some scenarios, strife, conceal weapon and shades, and warden doesn't even have that possibilty.
You seem to be missrepresenting warden's value to a team as a support and not by it's dps capabilities. Yes, they have some useful traits, but those are usually asigned to either tanks or healers. No one is gonna bring a warden dps cause of the major toughness (which actually is already provided for horns), or the portals displacements.
I get it none of you two are playing a magicka NB in endgame?
Horns are nt' up 100% sometimes, besides - that major aoe debuff alone is enough to have at least one warden. And what do NBs bring? nothing. And it's not NB you shoudl be looking at. There are sorcs and DK and templars. They deal way more DPS than NB already - more than enough to fill 8 group slots. And the portals - yes for sure. Just like people would bring DKs to vMOL just because of chains even if their dps was a bit lower.
And if Wardens have as high DPS as , say, NB - then there's no point to bring a NB, considering how much more a warden can give to a group.
[quote="Vaoh;3995933"
I'll main the Warden as a Magicka DPS forever once it launches. I'm just hoping it isn't as terrible as it sounds right now in this regard. Mag NB looks really strong right now
Ajnd again - you can't say anything about wardens dps right now. For all we know , the bear alone will outdps a magicka NB. The number of skills doesn't matter if the skills hit so hard that the DPS is high.
Also, for all we know - it's gonna be an era of 50/50, no more pure healers if magicka wardens can also heal a lot.
LOL. Geez you're getting salty rn. Half of your words are spelled wrong and your thoughts jumbled into a giant rage paragraph which won't properly quote
My "Mag NB looks really strong right now" comment was sarcasm dude...
By strong, I meant weak asf, and hope the Warden doesn't turn out unused like Mag NBs currently are in endgame. Reread the comment when you chill and it'll be clearer.
And no, we know plenty about the Warden, and it's not as unknown to us that we could ever assume the bear might out-dps a Mag NB.... we have a good general idea of the strength of each Warden ability.
Also no again, we will always need healers. Having DPS/Healer builds everywhere causes much less DPS and Healing to be done overall than if people are in dedicated roles.
I can't wait until a few months from now when a big thread pops up on the Forums of the exact same topic and everyone jumps to support it. jsEdited by Vaoh on April 16, 2017 10:30AM1 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭TBH, ZoS are limiting themself. There could be so many morphs that go either way if they just dropped the whole "morphs are minor upgrades to base ability"
That skill that pulls you to ally and heal it? Second morph could be gapcloser with damage or work on allies but be aimed at selfish defense or stun/root enemy with vines and deal damage to them.
Half the green balance tree morphs could have been some poison (ok, that is stamina... then maybe simple magic damage) offensive skills.
Half the frost spells could have been one morph buff second morph enemy debuff or one be half defense half offense with health based scaling and second more offensive with magicka based scaling.
Instead of every type (tank, dd, healer) getting one skill tree with double the morphs (so they cant use half of them) there could have been 36 morphs and every type instead of 6 skills would get... DOUBLE.
Edited by SodanTok on April 16, 2017 11:26AM0 -
STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭To my ways of thinking a couple key things play out in this discussion:
Argument about how the bear's non-spent attacks raise DPS. much ado about nothing. there are other ults which do the same thing... only instead of having an animated bear raise their DPS, they do it with gains like "+ABC% to all damage when slotted" or "+ABC% for every sorceror slotted" or "+ABC magica when slotted" whether from the ability itself or other passives. Plenty of ults raise your damage without spending ult on them, that is nothing new. here, with the bear, its "DPS when slotted" boost will show up on your recaps as separate attacks, not be masked in the damage recaps for other abilities. The net result is playtest will occur and damage results for the bear being out and swiping with claws will be assessed, just like dawnbreaker or meteor non-listed in recap boosts are.
Core argument: Again, the number of abilities causing damage that can be slotted from class skills is NOT a determinant factor for overall DPS capability or suitability/viability for trials and other content. Debuffs which boost damage wont should up on that kind of overly simplistic count, for instance. if i choose to slot a power that gives me berserk and another that gives the enemy major breach and fractures, they may not count as "damaging" abilities but they may wind up producing more extra DPS than any one attack does. Classes vary in their dependencies on weapon skills for damage slots... its as simple as that. As evidence i refer you to the opening post...
In that post the OP listed how they were counting skills showing various debuffs as not included. Also in that post the tallies as counted were...
NB-10
Dk-10
Tem-9
Sor-8
if we accept that "number of damage causing skills in the class skill lists" has relevance to the issues of DPS or trial/content viability in roles, well, we would expect to see this reflected when you compare these rates to those in the trials/content we see now. but frankly, i dont think you will find many folks priaising the Dk and NB as top dogs for DPS even though they have more class damage dealing skills than the rest.
Now sure, the argument could be that its not about how many but about some threshold... that 4-5 is too few but 8-10 is not going to show a difference... but if you really look at it... a typical weapon skill line has 4-5 damaging skills and the guild lines have 3-4 so you are not so much looking at 4 for warden vs 10 for the awesomely overgunned DPS monster NB but more like 3(guild)+5(wpn)+4(class) 12 for warden vs 18 for NB when you have 12 slots available to use at any time.
Sorry but the conclusions don't follow from the premises.
Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
YFMV Your Fun May Vary.
First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
"The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."0 -
Jitterbug✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I did a thread on this a few weeks back... my point was more that so many of the Warden skills become mandatory buffs that you can barely fit any damage skills.
But the output is the same.
I think I'll be going a different route with my warden, centering the build around the weird skills like teleport and friendly chains. Partly because I'm a snowflake, but also because (in my mind) the playstyle seems boring otherwise and I might as well just stay on my mag nb and save myself the grind for horse/guild/rank/craft.Edited by Jitterbug on April 16, 2017 11:44AM0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Warden skills that do dmg are :
Dive
Scorch
Swarm
Bear (the bear by itself doesnt cost ult since its a pet and it can be up 100% of the time)
Arctic blast
Impaling shards
Crystallized Shield
Frozen gate
There you go. 8 abilities so its sort of balanced with the other classes. What you could do is count the available buffs from each class. Thats where things get out of balance.
we don't count bear since everyone has access to generic dps ults on comet and destro ult anyways, then all of which you have listed below that aren't skills worth consideration for dps setups.
The bear does not work like other ults. Thats literally what i said and the whole point why i listed it. All ultimates cost ult to do dmg. The bear ability costs ult to do dmg but the bear by itself doesnt. Its up 100% of the time and deals dmg without costing you anything.
I know that half of the abilities i listed are not considered DPS abilities. But the same applies for fragmented shield, petrify, stonefist, focused charge, blazing shield, mines, encase, agony etc which ironically were all listed and compared to warden abilities. You are comparing apples with oranges. Either they are all out or all in.
I'm well aware of that, but zos has stated that the bear will be on line with other ults dps-wise, altough still a bit stronger since you got to double bar it. If you want to count the bear, so you got to with soul harvest, or standard of might, etc.
You are saying that you are well aware of how it works and yet you keep comparing it with other ults. You cant compare it with other ults. Soul harvest, standard etc will not do dmg unless u have ult. The bear will always do dmg whether u have ult or not. Its special ability that u can activate can be compared with soul harvest etc. But the bear by itself will always do dmg regardless of its special ability. The fact that they said that its normal attacks will be in line with other ults actually makes it even stronger. That means that u basically have two ults. Its normal attacks will do enough dmg to be compared with other ults and its completely free, and on top of that u have its special ability that also does a ton of dmg as a bonus.
It's not me who compared it but Zos, when they said it's close, in terms of dps done, with other ults on the last Eso Live. Because if it were that strong, it would overshadow any other ult.
I know what they said and i just pointed that out. They said that we looked how much dmg ults do and adjusted the bear attacks to much that dmg. The issue is that the bear also has a special ability on top of that.
Anw i didnt mention the bear to start a debate on whether the bear will be strong or not and im also not debating on whether the warden will be good or not in PVE DPS. No one knows before we test it. I just responded and mentioned every warden ability that does dmg cause this whole thread started by comparing every single ability with any sort of dmg component attached to it, with only warden's actual DPS abilities.
Point we are argueing here is that there is no way warden can compete with other dpses with only 2 or 3 skills, agaisnt 5 or more that other clases have, and we feel like this a wrong approach for the game, and would like something to be done.
Of course we could see that swarm, dive and scorch (not bear cause we know it's comparable with comet and ele rage) are so strong that it will end up making the difference, but we hardly doubt it.
You are arguing here that the warden cant compete with other DPS before you test the class. Not min/max it but before you even test it. There was a time when stam sorcs were prety much kings and the only thing they had from their class was hurricane.Edited by pieratsos on April 16, 2017 12:22PM0 -
Stamden✭✭✭✭✭
✭Honestly, with the 8% bonus magika from Northern Storm and even more with Necropotence, Mag Wardens might still pump out respectable DPS even with only like 4 damage abilities. Not Mag Sorc levels of DPS, but similar to Magplars potentially.
Stam Wardens don't get the 8% more stats from that ult, and don't get some overturned set to run around in. They are also missing features from their Bear and Dive morphs, and don't even have a Swarm morph.
Mag Wardens are probably okay, Stam Wardens are pretty screwed.PC NA
~Currently taking a break from the game until my DK can become something more than just a crafter~0 -
KeiruNicrom✭✭✭✭✭Warden was initially designed to fit the role of support so this is to be expected. A support based class would have less skills built for direct damage and more towards buffing self and allies or debuffing enemies. This will just take a little more....creativity to find a unique build. I myself look forward to this challenge0 -
Turelus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Well it's like the Green Balance tree is just heals, they could have done so much more with it but... heals only.
This isn't ESO style class design for me, it feels more akin to WoW/SWTOR where you have your tree's made for your role and then that's it.@Turelus - EU PC Megaserver
"Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves."1 -
Nemesis7884✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭and i still don't know if i will play a argonian-magicka-ice mage-warden or a nord-stamina-ranger-warden
0 -
Stamden✭✭✭✭✭
✭Well it's like the Green Balance tree is just heals, they could have done so much more with it but... heals only.
It's really unfortunate because Templars will still be better all around healers. They are just too straightforward and impossible to screw up, whereas the Warden actually requires some competence to heal with.
I think they should consider adding some interesting damage morphs into the Green Balance tree. Poison is green
PC NA
~Currently taking a break from the game until my DK can become something more than just a crafter~1 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Warden skills that do dmg are :
Dive
Scorch
Swarm
Bear (the bear by itself doesnt cost ult since its a pet and it can be up 100% of the time)
Arctic blast
Impaling shards
Crystallized Shield
Frozen gate
There you go. 8 abilities so its sort of balanced with the other classes. What you could do is count the available buffs from each class. Thats where things get out of balance.
we don't count bear since everyone has access to generic dps ults on comet and destro ult anyways, then all of which you have listed below that aren't skills worth consideration for dps setups.
The bear does not work like other ults. Thats literally what i said and the whole point why i listed it. All ultimates cost ult to do dmg. The bear ability costs ult to do dmg but the bear by itself doesnt. Its up 100% of the time and deals dmg without costing you anything.
I know that half of the abilities i listed are not considered DPS abilities. But the same applies for fragmented shield, petrify, stonefist, focused charge, blazing shield, mines, encase, agony etc which ironically were all listed and compared to warden abilities. You are comparing apples with oranges. Either they are all out or all in.
I'm well aware of that, but zos has stated that the bear will be on line with other ults dps-wise, altough still a bit stronger since you got to double bar it. If you want to count the bear, so you got to with soul harvest, or standard of might, etc.
You are saying that you are well aware of how it works and yet you keep comparing it with other ults. You cant compare it with other ults. Soul harvest, standard etc will not do dmg unless u have ult. The bear will always do dmg whether u have ult or not. Its special ability that u can activate can be compared with soul harvest etc. But the bear by itself will always do dmg regardless of its special ability. The fact that they said that its normal attacks will be in line with other ults actually makes it even stronger. That means that u basically have two ults. Its normal attacks will do enough dmg to be compared with other ults and its completely free, and on top of that u have its special ability that also does a ton of dmg as a bonus.
It's not me who compared it but Zos, when they said it's close, in terms of dps done, with other ults on the last Eso Live. Because if it were that strong, it would overshadow any other ult.
I know what they said and i just pointed that out. They said that we looked how much dmg ults do and adjusted the bear attacks to much that dmg. The issue is that the bear also has a special ability on top of that.
Anw i didnt mention the bear to start a debate on whether the bear will be strong or not and im also not debating on whether the warden will be good or not in PVE DPS. No one knows before we test it. I just responded and mentioned every warden ability that does dmg cause this whole thread started by comparing every single ability with any sort of dmg component attached to it, with only warden's actual DPS abilities.
Point we are argueing here is that there is no way warden can compete with other dpses with only 2 or 3 skills, agaisnt 5 or more that other clases have, and we feel like this a wrong approach for the game, and would like something to be done.
Of course we could see that swarm, dive and scorch (not bear cause we know it's comparable with comet and ele rage) are so strong that it will end up making the difference, but we hardly doubt it.
You are arguing here that the warden cant compete with other DPS before you test the class. Not min/max it but before you even test it. There was a time when stam sorcs were prety much kings and the only thing they had from their class was hurricane.
I know you're talking to the other guy but you're pretty far off here.
Stam Sorcs had a lot more than just Hurricane.... they have Dark Deal (very strong), Bolt Escape (lifesaver+great mobility), and Critical Surge on backbar (big HoT+pairs nicely with Caltrops). Stam Sorcs also have *very good* passives, with Implosion being a free execute that procs quite often at 15% health.0 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Nemesis7884 wrote: »and i still don't know if i will play a argonian-magicka-ice mage-warden or a nord-stamina-ranger-warden
Go with both!! Warden is an amazing class.
The issue I bring up in this thread only applies at late endgame when deciding maximum damage output builds or for diverse Magicka builds in PvP.0 -
pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Warden skills that do dmg are :
Dive
Scorch
Swarm
Bear (the bear by itself doesnt cost ult since its a pet and it can be up 100% of the time)
Arctic blast
Impaling shards
Crystallized Shield
Frozen gate
There you go. 8 abilities so its sort of balanced with the other classes. What you could do is count the available buffs from each class. Thats where things get out of balance.
we don't count bear since everyone has access to generic dps ults on comet and destro ult anyways, then all of which you have listed below that aren't skills worth consideration for dps setups.
The bear does not work like other ults. Thats literally what i said and the whole point why i listed it. All ultimates cost ult to do dmg. The bear ability costs ult to do dmg but the bear by itself doesnt. Its up 100% of the time and deals dmg without costing you anything.
I know that half of the abilities i listed are not considered DPS abilities. But the same applies for fragmented shield, petrify, stonefist, focused charge, blazing shield, mines, encase, agony etc which ironically were all listed and compared to warden abilities. You are comparing apples with oranges. Either they are all out or all in.
I'm well aware of that, but zos has stated that the bear will be on line with other ults dps-wise, altough still a bit stronger since you got to double bar it. If you want to count the bear, so you got to with soul harvest, or standard of might, etc.
You are saying that you are well aware of how it works and yet you keep comparing it with other ults. You cant compare it with other ults. Soul harvest, standard etc will not do dmg unless u have ult. The bear will always do dmg whether u have ult or not. Its special ability that u can activate can be compared with soul harvest etc. But the bear by itself will always do dmg regardless of its special ability. The fact that they said that its normal attacks will be in line with other ults actually makes it even stronger. That means that u basically have two ults. Its normal attacks will do enough dmg to be compared with other ults and its completely free, and on top of that u have its special ability that also does a ton of dmg as a bonus.
It's not me who compared it but Zos, when they said it's close, in terms of dps done, with other ults on the last Eso Live. Because if it were that strong, it would overshadow any other ult.
I know what they said and i just pointed that out. They said that we looked how much dmg ults do and adjusted the bear attacks to much that dmg. The issue is that the bear also has a special ability on top of that.
Anw i didnt mention the bear to start a debate on whether the bear will be strong or not and im also not debating on whether the warden will be good or not in PVE DPS. No one knows before we test it. I just responded and mentioned every warden ability that does dmg cause this whole thread started by comparing every single ability with any sort of dmg component attached to it, with only warden's actual DPS abilities.
Point we are argueing here is that there is no way warden can compete with other dpses with only 2 or 3 skills, agaisnt 5 or more that other clases have, and we feel like this a wrong approach for the game, and would like something to be done.
Of course we could see that swarm, dive and scorch (not bear cause we know it's comparable with comet and ele rage) are so strong that it will end up making the difference, but we hardly doubt it.
You are arguing here that the warden cant compete with other DPS before you test the class. Not min/max it but before you even test it. There was a time when stam sorcs were prety much kings and the only thing they had from their class was hurricane.
I know you're talking to the other guy but you're pretty far off here.
Stam Sorcs had a lot more than just Hurricane.... they have Dark Deal (very strong), Bolt Escape (lifesaver+great mobility), and Critical Surge on backbar (big HoT+pairs nicely with Caltrops). Stam Sorcs also have *very good* passives, with Implosion being a free execute that procs quite often at 15% health.
Stop mixing PVE with PVP and dps abilities with utility abilites. I was talking about stam sorc dps abilities in PVE to prove that the amount of dps abilities u have in the class does not make ur DPS good or bad. Dark deal, streak and surge are not dps abilities. They were doing fine and they still do fine compared to other stamina builds with only hurricane.
But if u really want to talk PVP and bring up utility then there is no comparison. Like i said wardens blow every class out of the water in that department. Brutality, sorcery, savagery, prophecy, expedition, berserk, toughness, defile, mending, protection, major heroism with no f*cking cooldown, resolve, ward, spammable DPS, dot, burst, burst heals, hots, the only class with a stamina based heal, heals and dmg scaling of hp, absorb/reflect, sustain, chain (sorts of anw). The possibilities in PVP are endless. You can literally use any combination of weapons and try to build around it cause you simply have absolutely everything in the class. Dark deal, surge and streak which make stam sorcs beasts, are literally nothing compared to what a warden can get.Edited by pieratsos on April 16, 2017 9:13PM0 -
SanTii.92✭✭✭✭✭
✭Warden skills that do dmg are :
Dive
Scorch
Swarm
Bear (the bear by itself doesnt cost ult since its a pet and it can be up 100% of the time)
Arctic blast
Impaling shards
Crystallized Shield
Frozen gate
There you go. 8 abilities so its sort of balanced with the other classes. What you could do is count the available buffs from each class. Thats where things get out of balance.
we don't count bear since everyone has access to generic dps ults on comet and destro ult anyways, then all of which you have listed below that aren't skills worth consideration for dps setups.
The bear does not work like other ults. Thats literally what i said and the whole point why i listed it. All ultimates cost ult to do dmg. The bear ability costs ult to do dmg but the bear by itself doesnt. Its up 100% of the time and deals dmg without costing you anything.
I know that half of the abilities i listed are not considered DPS abilities. But the same applies for fragmented shield, petrify, stonefist, focused charge, blazing shield, mines, encase, agony etc which ironically were all listed and compared to warden abilities. You are comparing apples with oranges. Either they are all out or all in.
I'm well aware of that, but zos has stated that the bear will be on line with other ults dps-wise, altough still a bit stronger since you got to double bar it. If you want to count the bear, so you got to with soul harvest, or standard of might, etc.
You are saying that you are well aware of how it works and yet you keep comparing it with other ults. You cant compare it with other ults. Soul harvest, standard etc will not do dmg unless u have ult. The bear will always do dmg whether u have ult or not. Its special ability that u can activate can be compared with soul harvest etc. But the bear by itself will always do dmg regardless of its special ability. The fact that they said that its normal attacks will be in line with other ults actually makes it even stronger. That means that u basically have two ults. Its normal attacks will do enough dmg to be compared with other ults and its completely free, and on top of that u have its special ability that also does a ton of dmg as a bonus.
It's not me who compared it but Zos, when they said it's close, in terms of dps done, with other ults on the last Eso Live. Because if it were that strong, it would overshadow any other ult.
I know what they said and i just pointed that out. They said that we looked how much dmg ults do and adjusted the bear attacks to much that dmg. The issue is that the bear also has a special ability on top of that.
Anw i didnt mention the bear to start a debate on whether the bear will be strong or not and im also not debating on whether the warden will be good or not in PVE DPS. No one knows before we test it. I just responded and mentioned every warden ability that does dmg cause this whole thread started by comparing every single ability with any sort of dmg component attached to it, with only warden's actual DPS abilities.
Point we are argueing here is that there is no way warden can compete with other dpses with only 2 or 3 skills, agaisnt 5 or more that other clases have, and we feel like this a wrong approach for the game, and would like something to be done.
Of course we could see that swarm, dive and scorch (not bear cause we know it's comparable with comet and ele rage) are so strong that it will end up making the difference, but we hardly doubt it.
You are arguing here that the warden cant compete with other DPS before you test the class. Not min/max it but before you even test it. There was a time when stam sorcs were prety much kings and the only thing they had from their class was hurricane.
I know you're talking to the other guy but you're pretty far off here.
Stam Sorcs had a lot more than just Hurricane.... they have Dark Deal (very strong), Bolt Escape (lifesaver+great mobility), and Critical Surge on backbar (big HoT+pairs nicely with Caltrops). Stam Sorcs also have *very good* passives, with Implosion being a free execute that procs quite often at 15% health.
Stop mixing PVE with PVP and dps abilities with utility abilites. I was talking about stam sorc dps abilities in PVE to prove that the amount of dps abilities u have in the class does not make ur DPS good or bad. Dark deal, streak and surge are not dps abilities. They were doing fine and they still do fine compared to other stamina builds with only hurricane.
You forgot bound armaments, but it's besides the point since no stamina setup builds up around class skills anyways.
Yes, I'm arguing that mag wardens will suck dpsing before even testing, because not being able to even properly fill up bars points in that direction.
It seems like some are on board of the idea that some classes should only perform at certain roles, well I'm not, and it's a fundamental turn on Zos balance approach.
Inb you tell me that dks were always best tanks and templars best healers, nothing similar ever happened regarding dpses. Here we seem to be getting a class that is designed to not dps at all.When the snows fall and the white winds blow,
the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.
Arg | Pc Na | Factionless Mag Warden.1 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Warden skills that do dmg are :
Dive
Scorch
Swarm
Bear (the bear by itself doesnt cost ult since its a pet and it can be up 100% of the time)
Arctic blast
Impaling shards
Crystallized Shield
Frozen gate
There you go. 8 abilities so its sort of balanced with the other classes. What you could do is count the available buffs from each class. Thats where things get out of balance.
we don't count bear since everyone has access to generic dps ults on comet and destro ult anyways, then all of which you have listed below that aren't skills worth consideration for dps setups.
The bear does not work like other ults. Thats literally what i said and the whole point why i listed it. All ultimates cost ult to do dmg. The bear ability costs ult to do dmg but the bear by itself doesnt. Its up 100% of the time and deals dmg without costing you anything.
I know that half of the abilities i listed are not considered DPS abilities. But the same applies for fragmented shield, petrify, stonefist, focused charge, blazing shield, mines, encase, agony etc which ironically were all listed and compared to warden abilities. You are comparing apples with oranges. Either they are all out or all in.
I'm well aware of that, but zos has stated that the bear will be on line with other ults dps-wise, altough still a bit stronger since you got to double bar it. If you want to count the bear, so you got to with soul harvest, or standard of might, etc.
You are saying that you are well aware of how it works and yet you keep comparing it with other ults. You cant compare it with other ults. Soul harvest, standard etc will not do dmg unless u have ult. The bear will always do dmg whether u have ult or not. Its special ability that u can activate can be compared with soul harvest etc. But the bear by itself will always do dmg regardless of its special ability. The fact that they said that its normal attacks will be in line with other ults actually makes it even stronger. That means that u basically have two ults. Its normal attacks will do enough dmg to be compared with other ults and its completely free, and on top of that u have its special ability that also does a ton of dmg as a bonus.
It's not me who compared it but Zos, when they said it's close, in terms of dps done, with other ults on the last Eso Live. Because if it were that strong, it would overshadow any other ult.
I know what they said and i just pointed that out. They said that we looked how much dmg ults do and adjusted the bear attacks to much that dmg. The issue is that the bear also has a special ability on top of that.
Anw i didnt mention the bear to start a debate on whether the bear will be strong or not and im also not debating on whether the warden will be good or not in PVE DPS. No one knows before we test it. I just responded and mentioned every warden ability that does dmg cause this whole thread started by comparing every single ability with any sort of dmg component attached to it, with only warden's actual DPS abilities.
Point we are argueing here is that there is no way warden can compete with other dpses with only 2 or 3 skills, agaisnt 5 or more that other clases have, and we feel like this a wrong approach for the game, and would like something to be done.
Of course we could see that swarm, dive and scorch (not bear cause we know it's comparable with comet and ele rage) are so strong that it will end up making the difference, but we hardly doubt it.
You are arguing here that the warden cant compete with other DPS before you test the class. Not min/max it but before you even test it. There was a time when stam sorcs were prety much kings and the only thing they had from their class was hurricane.
I know you're talking to the other guy but you're pretty far off here.
Stam Sorcs had a lot more than just Hurricane.... they have Dark Deal (very strong), Bolt Escape (lifesaver+great mobility), and Critical Surge on backbar (big HoT+pairs nicely with Caltrops). Stam Sorcs also have *very good* passives, with Implosion being a free execute that procs quite often at 15% health.
Stop mixing PVE with PVP and dps abilities with utility abilites. I was talking about stam sorc dps abilities in PVE to prove that the amount of dps abilities u have in the class does not make ur DPS good or bad. Dark deal, streak and surge are not dps abilities. They were doing fine and they still do fine compared to other stamina builds with only hurricane.
But if u really want to talk PVP and bring up utility then there is no comparison. Like i said wardens blow every class out of the water in that department. Brutality, sorcery, savagery, prophecy, expedition, berserk, toughness, defile, mending, protection, major heroism with no f*cking cooldown, resolve, ward, spammable DPS, dot, burst, burst heals, hots, the only class with a stamina based heal, heals and dmg scaling of hp, absorb/reflect, sustain, chain (sorts of anw). The possibilities in PVP are endless. You can literally use any combination of weapons and try to build around it cause you simply have absolutely everything in the class. Dark deal, surge and streak which make stam sorcs beasts, are literally nothing compared to what a warden can get.
Oh nvm then lol. Thought you meant PvP.
In PvE Stam Sorcs also have Bound Armaments, which is a great damage boost and grants Minor resists+good passives from Daedric Summoning. Hurricane made them the kings of PvE because it deals massive AoE damage and grants Major Resists as a bonus. The passives from Storm Calling just buff them even further.
For PvP, Warden will be a great class for all roles. It seems that Warden will find use (like every class usually can) in all roles regardless of content. What the Warden is most unique in is that they may become the first class where taking them as a PvE DPS could be a huge loss of damage even when placed next to currently underbuffed Mag NBs. We'll see.Edited by Vaoh on April 16, 2017 9:32PM0 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Warden skills that do dmg are :
Dive
Scorch
Swarm
Bear (the bear by itself doesnt cost ult since its a pet and it can be up 100% of the time)
Arctic blast
Impaling shards
Crystallized Shield
Frozen gate
There you go. 8 abilities so its sort of balanced with the other classes. What you could do is count the available buffs from each class. Thats where things get out of balance.
we don't count bear since everyone has access to generic dps ults on comet and destro ult anyways, then all of which you have listed below that aren't skills worth consideration for dps setups.
The bear does not work like other ults. Thats literally what i said and the whole point why i listed it. All ultimates cost ult to do dmg. The bear ability costs ult to do dmg but the bear by itself doesnt. Its up 100% of the time and deals dmg without costing you anything.
I know that half of the abilities i listed are not considered DPS abilities. But the same applies for fragmented shield, petrify, stonefist, focused charge, blazing shield, mines, encase, agony etc which ironically were all listed and compared to warden abilities. You are comparing apples with oranges. Either they are all out or all in.
I'm well aware of that, but zos has stated that the bear will be on line with other ults dps-wise, altough still a bit stronger since you got to double bar it. If you want to count the bear, so you got to with soul harvest, or standard of might, etc.
You are saying that you are well aware of how it works and yet you keep comparing it with other ults. You cant compare it with other ults. Soul harvest, standard etc will not do dmg unless u have ult. The bear will always do dmg whether u have ult or not. Its special ability that u can activate can be compared with soul harvest etc. But the bear by itself will always do dmg regardless of its special ability. The fact that they said that its normal attacks will be in line with other ults actually makes it even stronger. That means that u basically have two ults. Its normal attacks will do enough dmg to be compared with other ults and its completely free, and on top of that u have its special ability that also does a ton of dmg as a bonus.
It's not me who compared it but Zos, when they said it's close, in terms of dps done, with other ults on the last Eso Live. Because if it were that strong, it would overshadow any other ult.
I know what they said and i just pointed that out. They said that we looked how much dmg ults do and adjusted the bear attacks to much that dmg. The issue is that the bear also has a special ability on top of that.
Anw i didnt mention the bear to start a debate on whether the bear will be strong or not and im also not debating on whether the warden will be good or not in PVE DPS. No one knows before we test it. I just responded and mentioned every warden ability that does dmg cause this whole thread started by comparing every single ability with any sort of dmg component attached to it, with only warden's actual DPS abilities.
Point we are argueing here is that there is no way warden can compete with other dpses with only 2 or 3 skills, agaisnt 5 or more that other clases have, and we feel like this a wrong approach for the game, and would like something to be done.
Of course we could see that swarm, dive and scorch (not bear cause we know it's comparable with comet and ele rage) are so strong that it will end up making the difference, but we hardly doubt it.
You are arguing here that the warden cant compete with other DPS before you test the class. Not min/max it but before you even test it. There was a time when stam sorcs were prety much kings and the only thing they had from their class was hurricane.
I know you're talking to the other guy but you're pretty far off here.
Stam Sorcs had a lot more than just Hurricane.... they have Dark Deal (very strong), Bolt Escape (lifesaver+great mobility), and Critical Surge on backbar (big HoT+pairs nicely with Caltrops). Stam Sorcs also have *very good* passives, with Implosion being a free execute that procs quite often at 15% health.
Stop mixing PVE with PVP and dps abilities with utility abilites. I was talking about stam sorc dps abilities in PVE to prove that the amount of dps abilities u have in the class does not make ur DPS good or bad. Dark deal, streak and surge are not dps abilities. They were doing fine and they still do fine compared to other stamina builds with only hurricane.
You forgot bound armaments, but it's besides the point since no stamina setup builds up around class skills anyways.
Yes, I'm arguing that mag wardens will suck dpsing before even testing, because not being able to even properly fill up bars points in that direction.
It seems like some are on board of the idea that some classes should only perform at certain roles, well I'm not, and it's a fundamental turn on Zos balance approach.
Inb you tell me that dks were always best tanks and templars best healers, nothing similar ever happened regarding dpses. Here we seem to be getting a class that is designed to not dps at all.
^^^exactly
The worst part, is that Warden passives as a whole do very little for Warden DPS. Pretty sure there's 1-2 passives in the entire class that support Warden PvE DPS.
All it takes is a few morph changes to help Wardens fill their bars for this issue to be fixed.
1 -
Korah_Eaglecry✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I personally think ZOS is trying to be too cautious with this new class. There has been a lot of criticism over the last three years that ZOS cant correctly balance what is in the game. From NBs to Sorcerers to sets and Siege Equipment. And that criticism is largely accurate. They have swung balance like a pendulum for three years now. And with every passing major update they seem to change direction on previously held attitudes about balance. I can imagine that with the addition of a new class. Theyre weary of introducing a new dynamic to the balancing act theyre struggling with and making things far worse.
So instead of trying to find a class that can both act as a team player and a soloable class. They go with the niche support class that will likely underpeform not just in endgame content where the competiveness of DPS dictates what will and wont be tolerated. But in solo play where it wont have the umph to get through the content but at a snails pace.Penniless Sellsword CompanyCaptain Paramount - Jorrhaq VhentKorith Eaglecry * Enrerion Aedihle * Laerinel Rhaev * Caius Berilius * Seylina Ithvala * H'Vak the GrimjawlTenarei Rhaev * Dazsh Ro Khar * Yynril Rothvani * Bathes-In-Coin * Anaelle Faerniil * Azjani Ma'LesAban Shahid Bakr * Kheshna gra-Gharbuk * Gallisten Bondurant * Etain Maquier * Atsu Kalame * Faulpia SeverinusWhat is better, to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort? - Paarthurnax0 -
Nemesis7884✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It seems to me that looking at a stamina DK and a stamina warden, they seem to have nearly the same type of skills....a lot of the stamina options are pretty much the same?Edited by Nemesis7884 on April 17, 2017 1:46AM1 -
Nerouyn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭To put it plainly, Wardens have significantly less damage-dealing skills than any other class.
We can equip at most 12 abilities (including ultimates) at a time. So I don't care that Wardens have fewer damage-dealing skills than other classes. In fact I love that they don't.
Fewer damage skills means more defence and utility skills. This provides much more scope for variety of gameplay which I find desperately lacking in other classes, especially since 3 of those 4 classes were originally designed as melee classes and I'm more ranged inclined. So that means many of those 'extra' damage abilities the other classes have, I would never use anyway.
Personally I love wardens so far. On paper I'm not thrilled about some ice spells scaling off health but that's the worst of it for me.0 -
Artis✭✭✭✭✭
✭
What? are you trolling? Where does NB look strong? Open the leaderboards or something. They are the lowest DPS and bring no utility compared to other classes. As a result - underrepresented on the leaderboards. You won't raid as a NB unless you have friends who will take you (and don't have better options at the moment of deciding).
Are you kidding me? Did you read the thread? Who cares about 10 damaging spells if only 3 are used? Cripple path and impale. MAYBE resolve - many are arguing that it's actually a DPS loss. You don't don't what numbers will wardens have too - their bear might result in huge DPS. Or scorch or that dot. No, sap essence is not used. Shades? What? Wardens have way more. They have an AOE debuff, they have tons of different heals, buffs and CC. Why are you forgetting about them? NBs only have other DPS skills that nobody is using except for play as you want crowd that doesn't care about efficiency. Well wardens have tons of utility skills to choose from - and those skills are actually useful.
I don't understand how you say nbs do the same when, as voah has listed, they have 10 damaging spells, of which at least 5 of them (cripple, path, merciless resolve, impale and sap essenec) are usually used on standard rotations, whereas warden's have 3 viable spells, if lucky, and dive doesn't get outparse by force pulse at close range, would be two (2) spells. Not even mentioning that nbs actually have at least 3 more that might be useful on some scenarios, strife, conceal weapon and shades, and warden doesn't even have that possibilty.
You seem to be missrepresenting warden's value to a team as a support and not by it's dps capabilities. Yes, they have some useful traits, but those are usually asigned to either tanks or healers. No one is gonna bring a warden dps cause of the major toughness (which actually is already provided for horns), or the portals displacements.
I get it none of you two are playing a magicka NB in endgame?
Horns are nt' up 100% sometimes, besides - that major aoe debuff alone is enough to have at least one warden. And what do NBs bring? nothing. And it's not NB you shoudl be looking at. There are sorcs and DK and templars. They deal way more DPS than NB already - more than enough to fill 8 group slots. And the portals - yes for sure. Just like people would bring DKs to vMOL just because of chains even if their dps was a bit lower.
And if Wardens have as high DPS as , say, NB - then there's no point to bring a NB, considering how much more a warden can give to a group.
[quote="Vaoh;3995933"
I'll main the Warden as a Magicka DPS forever once it launches. I'm just hoping it isn't as terrible as it sounds right now in this regard. Mag NB looks really strong right now
Ajnd again - you can't say anything about wardens dps right now. For all we know , the bear alone will outdps a magicka NB. The number of skills doesn't matter if the skills hit so hard that the DPS is high.
Also, for all we know - it's gonna be an era of 50/50, no more pure healers if magicka wardens can also heal a lot.
LOL. Geez you're getting salty rn. Half of your words are spelled wrong and your thoughts jumbled into a giant rage paragraph which won't properly quote
My "Mag NB looks really strong right now" comment was sarcasm dude... By strong, I meant weak asf, and hope the Warden doesn't turn out unused like Mag NBs currently are in endgame. Reread the comment when you chill and it'll be clearer.
And no, we know plenty about the Warden, and it's not as unknown to us that we could ever assume the bear might out-dps a Mag NB.... we have a good general idea of the strength of each Warden ability.
Also no again, we will always need healers. Having DPS/Healer builds everywhere causes much less DPS and Healing to be done overall than if people are in dedicated roles.
I can't wait until a few months from now when a big thread pops up on the Forums of the exact same topic and everyone jumps to support it. js
No, I'm never getting salty. It was past the bed time. But whatever - if typos and spelling mean something to you - more power to you I guess. I for one look at the content instead of the cover and keep in mind that some people don't have English as their native language.
My point holds - the number of DPS skills doesn't matter, especially since we don't know how those skills will perform.0 -
usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭As well as it shouldn't have many damage skills.
The warden has an OBSCENE amount of control, group debuffs and utility. Allowing it to reach damage numbers that classes like Sorc can do (wherein sorc has no other purpose in PVE) would be a large balancing issue.0331
06020 -
Stamden✭✭✭✭✭
✭Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »I personally think ZOS is trying to be too cautious with this new class. There has been a lot of criticism over the last three years that ZOS cant correctly balance what is in the game. From NBs to Sorcerers to sets and Siege Equipment. And that criticism is largely accurate. They have swung balance like a pendulum for three years now. And with every passing major update they seem to change direction on previously held attitudes about balance. I can imagine that with the addition of a new class. Theyre weary of introducing a new dynamic to the balancing act theyre struggling with and making things far worse.
So instead of trying to find a class that can both act as a team player and a soloable class. They go with the niche support class that will likely underpeform not just in endgame content where the competiveness of DPS dictates what will and wont be tolerated. But in solo play where it wont have the umph to get through the content but at a snails pace.
They are being strangely conservative with the Warden. I think most people expected a really powerful class (atleast on paper) to encourage more sales of Morrowind. I guess they are just trying to appeal to all playstyles instead, but really I think they are shooting themselves in the foot a little bit.PC NA
~Currently taking a break from the game until my DK can become something more than just a crafter~0 -
SanTii.92✭✭✭✭✭
✭
What? are you trolling? Where does NB look strong? Open the leaderboards or something. They are the lowest DPS and bring no utility compared to other classes. As a result - underrepresented on the leaderboards. You won't raid as a NB unless you have friends who will take you (and don't have better options at the moment of deciding).
Are you kidding me? Did you read the thread? Who cares about 10 damaging spells if only 3 are used? Cripple path and impale. MAYBE resolve - many are arguing that it's actually a DPS loss. You don't don't what numbers will wardens have too - their bear might result in huge DPS. Or scorch or that dot. No, sap essence is not used. Shades? What? Wardens have way more. They have an AOE debuff, they have tons of different heals, buffs and CC. Why are you forgetting about them? NBs only have other DPS skills that nobody is using except for play as you want crowd that doesn't care about efficiency. Well wardens have tons of utility skills to choose from - and those skills are actually useful.
I don't understand how you say nbs do the same when, as voah has listed, they have 10 damaging spells, of which at least 5 of them (cripple, path, merciless resolve, impale and sap essenec) are usually used on standard rotations, whereas warden's have 3 viable spells, if lucky, and dive doesn't get outparse by force pulse at close range, would be two (2) spells. Not even mentioning that nbs actually have at least 3 more that might be useful on some scenarios, strife, conceal weapon and shades, and warden doesn't even have that possibilty.
You seem to be missrepresenting warden's value to a team as a support and not by it's dps capabilities. Yes, they have some useful traits, but those are usually asigned to either tanks or healers. No one is gonna bring a warden dps cause of the major toughness (which actually is already provided for horns), or the portals displacements.
I get it none of you two are playing a magicka NB in endgame?
Horns are nt' up 100% sometimes, besides - that major aoe debuff alone is enough to have at least one warden. And what do NBs bring? nothing. And it's not NB you shoudl be looking at. There are sorcs and DK and templars. They deal way more DPS than NB already - more than enough to fill 8 group slots. And the portals - yes for sure. Just like people would bring DKs to vMOL just because of chains even if their dps was a bit lower.
And if Wardens have as high DPS as , say, NB - then there's no point to bring a NB, considering how much more a warden can give to a group.
[quote="Vaoh;3995933"
I'll main the Warden as a Magicka DPS forever once it launches. I'm just hoping it isn't as terrible as it sounds right now in this regard. Mag NB looks really strong right now
Ajnd again - you can't say anything about wardens dps right now. For all we know , the bear alone will outdps a magicka NB. The number of skills doesn't matter if the skills hit so hard that the DPS is high.
Also, for all we know - it's gonna be an era of 50/50, no more pure healers if magicka wardens can also heal a lot.
LOL. Geez you're getting salty rn. Half of your words are spelled wrong and your thoughts jumbled into a giant rage paragraph which won't properly quote
My "Mag NB looks really strong right now" comment was sarcasm dude... By strong, I meant weak asf, and hope the Warden doesn't turn out unused like Mag NBs currently are in endgame. Reread the comment when you chill and it'll be clearer.
And no, we know plenty about the Warden, and it's not as unknown to us that we could ever assume the bear might out-dps a Mag NB.... we have a good general idea of the strength of each Warden ability.
Also no again, we will always need healers. Having DPS/Healer builds everywhere causes much less DPS and Healing to be done overall than if people are in dedicated roles.
I can't wait until a few months from now when a big thread pops up on the Forums of the exact same topic and everyone jumps to support it. js
My point holds - the number of DPS skills doesn't matter, especially since we don't know how those skills will perform.
Not especially since, but only if the scaling is obscenly strong. Wich i really, really doubt it.
Looks like some of you have given up on the idea that every class should perform at every role. Guess we have differente visions on how to achieve balance.When the snows fall and the white winds blow,
the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.
Arg | Pc Na | Factionless Mag Warden.1 -
Vosital✭✭✭✭
What? are you trolling? Where does NB look strong? Open the leaderboards or something. They are the lowest DPS and bring no utility compared to other classes. As a result - underrepresented on the leaderboards. You won't raid as a NB unless you have friends who will take you (and don't have better options at the moment of deciding).
Are you kidding me? Did you read the thread? Who cares about 10 damaging spells if only 3 are used? Cripple path and impale. MAYBE resolve - many are arguing that it's actually a DPS loss. You don't don't what numbers will wardens have too - their bear might result in huge DPS. Or scorch or that dot. No, sap essence is not used. Shades? What? Wardens have way more. They have an AOE debuff, they have tons of different heals, buffs and CC. Why are you forgetting about them? NBs only have other DPS skills that nobody is using except for play as you want crowd that doesn't care about efficiency. Well wardens have tons of utility skills to choose from - and those skills are actually useful.
I don't understand how you say nbs do the same when, as voah has listed, they have 10 damaging spells, of which at least 5 of them (cripple, path, merciless resolve, impale and sap essenec) are usually used on standard rotations, whereas warden's have 3 viable spells, if lucky, and dive doesn't get outparse by force pulse at close range, would be two (2) spells. Not even mentioning that nbs actually have at least 3 more that might be useful on some scenarios, strife, conceal weapon and shades, and warden doesn't even have that possibilty.
You seem to be missrepresenting warden's value to a team as a support and not by it's dps capabilities. Yes, they have some useful traits, but those are usually asigned to either tanks or healers. No one is gonna bring a warden dps cause of the major toughness (which actually is already provided for horns), or the portals displacements.
I get it none of you two are playing a magicka NB in endgame?
Horns are nt' up 100% sometimes, besides - that major aoe debuff alone is enough to have at least one warden. And what do NBs bring? nothing. And it's not NB you shoudl be looking at. There are sorcs and DK and templars. They deal way more DPS than NB already - more than enough to fill 8 group slots. And the portals - yes for sure. Just like people would bring DKs to vMOL just because of chains even if their dps was a bit lower.
And if Wardens have as high DPS as , say, NB - then there's no point to bring a NB, considering how much more a warden can give to a group.
[quote="Vaoh;3995933"
I'll main the Warden as a Magicka DPS forever once it launches. I'm just hoping it isn't as terrible as it sounds right now in this regard. Mag NB looks really strong right now
Ajnd again - you can't say anything about wardens dps right now. For all we know , the bear alone will outdps a magicka NB. The number of skills doesn't matter if the skills hit so hard that the DPS is high.
Also, for all we know - it's gonna be an era of 50/50, no more pure healers if magicka wardens can also heal a lot.
LOL. Geez you're getting salty rn. Half of your words are spelled wrong and your thoughts jumbled into a giant rage paragraph which won't properly quote
My "Mag NB looks really strong right now" comment was sarcasm dude... By strong, I meant weak asf, and hope the Warden doesn't turn out unused like Mag NBs currently are in endgame. Reread the comment when you chill and it'll be clearer.
And no, we know plenty about the Warden, and it's not as unknown to us that we could ever assume the bear might out-dps a Mag NB.... we have a good general idea of the strength of each Warden ability.
Also no again, we will always need healers. Having DPS/Healer builds everywhere causes much less DPS and Healing to be done overall than if people are in dedicated roles.
I can't wait until a few months from now when a big thread pops up on the Forums of the exact same topic and everyone jumps to support it. js
My point holds - the number of DPS skills doesn't matter, especially since we don't know how those skills will perform.
Not especially since, but only if the scaling is obscenly strong. Wich i really, really doubt it.
Looks like some of you have given up on the idea that every class should perform at every role. Guess we have differente visions on how to achieve balance.
Yep scaling is pretty important. Stuff like Crystal Frags has ridiculous scalings, where as stuff like Burning Talons barely budges from the base damage no matter how much spell damage you stack.
Since there is only like 4 damage abilities I would hope that the scalings are not terrible, but at this point who knows what Zenimax is thinking.0 -
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Not especially since, but only if the scaling is obscenly strong. Wich i really, really doubt it.
Looks like some of you have given up on the idea that every class should perform at every role. Guess we have differente visions on how to achieve balance.
If every class performs in every role without bringing anything for a group - then 1-2 best classes will be found and others won't be needed and won't be seen on the leaderboards (see stamina builds and magicka NBs, See DPS warriors in older addons of WoW).
If we want balance - we want each class to be different and bring stuff to the table that other classes can't have otherwise. For example, give each class a DPS buff that only that class has access too (and that also makes for solo play with this class).If you give wardens as much DPS as, say, magicka NB while they also can provide more stuff for the group, then there's no reason to take magicka NBs.0