Balance magic shields

B1ackjack187 · April 2017

Hello one of the biggest problems in eso in my opinion is magic shields aka "shield stacking" they negate too much. You can't crit them and armor/spell penetration doesn't effect them. So that pretty much negates racial passives, armor passives and gear, that's not good. Even in the champion tree shield stacking is ahead of the game while the rest of us are splitting up our red tree skill points shield stackers put 100 points into Bastion and theyre good against all damage. Please fix shields thank you.

Biro123 · April 2017

Will be 'fixed' with the resource changes in morrowind. Either they will have big shields and be unable to sustain them, or they will be smaller and sustainable... Depending how they build.

Chilly-McFreeze · April 2017

Right, Penetration doesn't effect them. Because shields have zero resistance. You always do 100% damage on them, no matter how much mitigation the armor under that shield has.

[SNIp]

[Edited for rude comments]

WalksonGraves · April 2017

Bubbles are only effective for characters with low hp that can sustain spamming expensive abilities. The lack of resistance makes the bubble worthless for most uses.

Waffennacht · April 2017

It's spreading into other forums! It's an "op sorc" epidemic!

KramUzibra · April 2017

B1ackjack187 wrote: »

Hello one of the biggest problems in eso in my opinion is magic shields aka "shield stacking" they negate too much. You can't crit them and armor/spell penetration doesn't effect them. So that pretty much negates racial passives, armor passives and gear, that's not good. Even in the champion tree shield stacking is ahead of the game while the rest of us are splitting up our red tree skill points shield stackers put 100 points into Bastion and theyre good against all damage. Please fix shields thank you.

They need to change! Fighting a skilled sorc that stacks between weaves and never let's their sheilds expire before reapplying all while able to effectively lay mines, streak and kite is to unbalance vs let's say medium armor using full two handed abilities. Plus their stun is incorporated in their primary dps so they don't have to worry about keeping those stuns up..

Waffennacht · April 2017

KramUzibra wrote: »

B1ackjack187 wrote: »

Hello one of the biggest problems in eso in my opinion is magic shields aka "shield stacking" they negate too much. You can't crit them and armor/spell penetration doesn't effect them. So that pretty much negates racial passives, armor passives and gear, that's not good. Even in the champion tree shield stacking is ahead of the game while the rest of us are splitting up our red tree skill points shield stackers put 100 points into Bastion and theyre good against all damage. Please fix shields thank you.

They need to change! Fighting a skilled sorc that stacks between weaves and never let's their sheilds expire before reapplying all while able to effectively lay mines, streak and kite is to unbalance vs let's say medium armor using full two handed abilities. Plus their stun is incorporated in their primary dps so they don't have to worry about keeping those stuns up..

But to say, LA, HA, and MA should all be able to well against the same thing makes no sense to me.

Medium Armor is not a brawler armor, you either kill or are killed within moments. To say that this style should do well against all other types is bad imo. Like MA (imo) destroys HA stam, while HA stam has the best chances against a LA sorc, while LA sorc pwns medium (just the basic ideas, this may or may not be accurate, however the idea should be)

I guess I'm saying, there should be a bit of rock paper scissors going on.

Koolio · April 2017

Just give medium armor a 15% increase damage to shields in a passive. Entice people to wear medium armor. Helps kill shields. Just woke up so I didn't think this all the way through

Jsmalls · April 2017

KramUzibra wrote: »

B1ackjack187 wrote: »

Hello one of the biggest problems in eso in my opinion is magic shields aka "shield stacking" they negate too much. You can't crit them and armor/spell penetration doesn't effect them. So that pretty much negates racial passives, armor passives and gear, that's not good. Even in the champion tree shield stacking is ahead of the game while the rest of us are splitting up our red tree skill points shield stackers put 100 points into Bastion and theyre good against all damage. Please fix shields thank you.

They need to change! Fighting a skilled sorc that stacks between weaves and never let's their sheilds expire before reapplying all while able to effectively lay mines, streak and kite is to unbalance vs let's say medium armor using full two handed abilities. Plus their stun is incorporated in their primary dps so they don't have to worry about keeping those stuns up..

HALP the Sorcerer isn't making any mistakes, and I:

A: Also am not making any mistakes and we can't kill each other, but clearly the only reason I'm losing is because his defense abilities are OP.

OR

B: Made a mistake and died, but the real problem was I couldn't kill him in 1 second. Please Nerf.

Think those two sum it up pretty well.

Nightsbane__ · April 2017

Really? We're back to "the shield-stacking sorc is too OP!" again?

KramUzibra · April 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

KramUzibra wrote: »

B1ackjack187 wrote: »

Hello one of the biggest problems in eso in my opinion is magic shields aka "shield stacking" they negate too much. You can't crit them and armor/spell penetration doesn't effect them. So that pretty much negates racial passives, armor passives and gear, that's not good. Even in the champion tree shield stacking is ahead of the game while the rest of us are splitting up our red tree skill points shield stackers put 100 points into Bastion and theyre good against all damage. Please fix shields thank you.

They need to change! Fighting a skilled sorc that stacks between weaves and never let's their sheilds expire before reapplying all while able to effectively lay mines, streak and kite is to unbalance vs let's say medium armor using full two handed abilities. Plus their stun is incorporated in their primary dps so they don't have to worry about keeping those stuns up..

But to say, LA, HA, and MA should all be able to well against the same thing makes no sense to me.

Medium Armor is not a brawler armor, you either kill or are killed within moments. To say that this style should do well against all other types is bad imo. Like MA (imo) destroys HA stam, while HA stam has the best chances against a LA sorc, while LA sorc pwns medium (just the basic ideas, this may or may not be accurate, however the idea should be)

I guess I'm saying, there should be a bit of rock paper scissors going on.

OK I see where your coming from and if that's what zos original intent for the was then cool but for example my stam med armor night blade if timed correctly can stun and finish a la sorc with how quick you can combo out the abilities..however in my sword singer dk or stam sorc It exceptionally difficult to achieve that kinda damage so quickly since the uppercut takes so long to actually hit the target.. I think it's just a sustaine issue, I can't seem to run good sorcs out of stam or magicka. Probably due to lich or necro. Also the changes to dodge, more and more things become non dodgeable I just get smacked in med..

Firerock2 · April 2017

Nightsbane__ wrote: »

Really? We're back to "the shield-stacking sorc is too OP!" again?

We never left it because it was never fixed

KramUzibra · April 2017

Jsmalls wrote: »

KramUzibra wrote: »

B1ackjack187 wrote: »

Hello one of the biggest problems in eso in my opinion is magic shields aka "shield stacking" they negate too much. You can't crit them and armor/spell penetration doesn't effect them. So that pretty much negates racial passives, armor passives and gear, that's not good. Even in the champion tree shield stacking is ahead of the game while the rest of us are splitting up our red tree skill points shield stackers put 100 points into Bastion and theyre good against all damage. Please fix shields thank you.

They need to change! Fighting a skilled sorc that stacks between weaves and never let's their sheilds expire before reapplying all while able to effectively lay mines, streak and kite is to unbalance vs let's say medium armor using full two handed abilities. Plus their stun is incorporated in their primary dps so they don't have to worry about keeping those stuns up..

HALP the Sorcerer isn't making any mistakes, and I:

A: Also am not making any mistakes and we can't kill each other, but clearly the only reason I'm losing is because his defense abilities are OP.

OR

B: Made a mistake and died, but the real problem was I couldn't kill him in 1 second. Please Nerf.

Think those two sum it up pretty well.

No I don't think they sum it up at all. This is merly a discussion on balancing sheilds or wether or not they even need it... I'm not crying for help because a sorc didn't make any mistakes.. I was able to effectively stun at every opportunity even timing stuns accordingly to try and catch the sheilds when it expires... Maybe it's not the sheilds at all maybe it the amount of defense/damage/sustain sorcs are able to achieve currently. Med armor users are getting the short end of the patches this year with all the nerfs to dodge...more and more abilities able to bypass the dodge mechanic. LA has sheilds, HA has resistance, and MED used to have evasiveness.. all I'm saying is Med shouldnt be just for ganking..

Nightsbane__ · April 2017

Firerock2 wrote: »

Nightsbane__ wrote: »

Really? We're back to "the shield-stacking sorc is too OP!" again?

We never left it because it was never fixed

Well, they've made them weaker, lessened the duration, and introduced a set specifically designed for damaging a damage shield user...so how much more fixing is needed?

Lynx7386 · April 2017

Ideally the way balance SHOULD be set up is this:
-Medium/stamina builds kill light/caster builds (light wearing casters should have very little defense against pokey things)
-Heavy builds kill medium/stamina builds (they have heavy armor to mitigate physical damage and outlast the bursty meds)
-Light/caster builds kill heavy builds (more sustain for long fights, more mobility than heavy to kite/avoid damage)

That's how almost all RPGs are set up in terms of class archetypes. Rogues kill mages, warriors kill rogues, mages kill warriors.

Zenimax, on the other hand, cant seem to tell left from right or up from down and balance is all over the place. Light pretty much kills everything and has the best defense on top of it. Medium can only kill if they get really lucky with proc sets and ganking, and has crap DPS for pve content. Heavy gives far less survivability and mitigation than light because of all the armor pen in the game and the damage shields light builds can spam for protection, while also having the lowest damage output and resource management.

If you ask me, they either need to completely do away with classes, or (better, IMO) make class roles a little more strict. It's impossible to balance a game when each class has a specialty but can still perform any role. In true no-class-system games, the abilities are balanced on an individual basis, but here we have a halfway point between classes and no classes.
Despite how many people it would *** off at this point in the game's development, i honestly think that each class should be restricted in their weapon and armor choices and the roles they can fulfill. The class trees need to be entirely redone to reflect that as well. It will never happen because ZOS is afraid of losing players from such a drastic change, but it would honestly solve a lot of issues this game has been suffering from since launch.

Twohothardware · April 2017

Nightsbane__ wrote: »

Firerock2 wrote: »

Nightsbane__ wrote: »

Really? We're back to "the shield-stacking sorc is too OP!" again?

We never left it because it was never fixed

Well, they've made them weaker, lessened the duration, and introduced a set specifically designed for damaging a damage shield user...so how much more fixing is needed?

A lot when in the last two major updates for One Tamriel and Homestead they gave Magsorc multiple buffs with stronger pets, much stronger Ults, damage increase when using destro staff, and double detonation Haunting Curse while at the same time nerfing Stamina builds. The increase in CP also helps shield using Magicka users even more than Stamina users because of not only larger shields but further reduced cost allowing easy endless shield stacking sustain. MagSorc was already one of the strongest 1v1 classes in the game prior to any of those buffs.

Waffennacht · April 2017

I just watched a mSorc and a mDK duel for... 20 or so minutes. Neither ran outta stam or magicka, both got each other close to dead and both were able to heal all the way back up.

I also killed 4 blue players on my lvl 12 in BWB...

I maybe starting to be swayed on the CP issue...

Lylith · April 2017

Nightsbane__ wrote: »

Really? We're back to "the shield-stacking sorc is too OP!" again?

the real neverending story.

KramUzibra · April 2017

Twohothardware wrote: »

Nightsbane__ wrote: »

Firerock2 wrote: »

Nightsbane__ wrote: »

Really? We're back to "the shield-stacking sorc is too OP!" again?

We never left it because it was never fixed

Well, they've made them weaker, lessened the duration, and introduced a set specifically designed for damaging a damage shield user...so how much more fixing is needed?

A lot when in the last two major updates for One Tamriel and Homestead they gave Magsorc multiple buffs with stronger pets, much stronger Ults, damage increase when using destro staff, and double detonation Haunting Curse while at the same time nerfing Stamina builds. The increase in CP also helps shield using Magicka users even more than Stamina users because of not only larger shields but further reduced cost allowing easy endless shield stacking sustain. MagSorc was already one of the strongest 1v1 classes in the game prior to any of those buffs.

Yup!!^^

oibam · April 2017

KramUzibra wrote: »

B1ackjack187 wrote: »

Hello one of the biggest problems in eso in my opinion is magic shields aka "shield stacking" they negate too much. You can't crit them and armor/spell penetration doesn't effect them. So that pretty much negates racial passives, armor passives and gear, that's not good. Even in the champion tree shield stacking is ahead of the game while the rest of us are splitting up our red tree skill points shield stackers put 100 points into Bastion and theyre good against all damage. Please fix shields thank you.

They need to change! Fighting a skilled sorc that stacks between weaves and never let's their sheilds expire before reapplying all while able to effectively lay mines, streak and kite is to unbalance vs let's say medium armor using full two handed abilities. Plus their stun is incorporated in their primary dps so they don't have to worry about keeping those stuns up..

Shield Breaker. Flaming incoming by those super-sorcs.

Biro123 · April 2017

Its simple.. Most damage dealing builds are made to get through heavy armour... High penetration, high crit chance/DMG.
You need a different build to combat shields.. Ofc that means you'd struggle vs heavy armour instead.... Its a choice.

Tasear · April 2017

Nightsbane__ wrote: »

Really? We're back to "the shield-stacking sorc is too OP!" again?

It's only 6 secs... you are doing something wrong here. if you are be defeated by this.

FriedEggSandwich · April 2017

Biro123 wrote: »

Will be 'fixed' with the resource changes in morrowind. Either they will have big shields and be unable to sustain them, or they will be smaller and sustainable... Depending how they build.

I'm doubtful that will fix the issue completely if at all; harness magicka pays for itself and hardened when fighting magic builds. The only way I see to fix the issue is to prevent harness stacking with any other shield. No major/minor BS, just hard code it.

Baconlad · April 2017

Stop pretending like shields are the problem here. [snip] Its sorc when considering overpowered magick builds. Shield fir everyone else are weak as ***, hence the reason you VERY rarely catch a GOOD player in light armor in cyrodil thats not a sorc.

Magplars wear heavy...because shields suck so bad we need heavy to mitigate health lost so our heals can work.

DKs wear heavy for the same reason.

Magblades are special. They still suck at using shields, but because they are better at getting out of tight situations than a templar or DK, they can run Light armor.

Honestly i have issues with stamina users in medium or especially heavy, and magsorcs, and somtimes mag DK as a heavy armor magplar.

Was fighting a heavy armored stamplar today, very good player, but i noticed something...he didnt doo...anything to worry about his defense. I would stun him and start hitting him, and he would cast vigor, and have five seconds of free offensive time cause lets face it...there s alot i have to do in order brust through that massive healing from vigor, even when i do enough damage to start lowering his health, bam theres the rally pop full health. Or i have to break damage so that i can heal up, but thats the key here, magick templars have to break from our offense phase so that we can go into a defense phase. This is not somthing 1v1 that anyone else has to do. and i only see it when fighting other templars. No stamina build needs to go into a full defense phase, all they have to do is pop rally and reapply vigor, and go back into the fight, knowing i wont bebable to do *** but spam BOL for the next five seconds till i can CC him again. It just kinda mind blowing that this guy gets a 10k+ heal over a moderatly short time when his weapon and resource says hes the one thats supposed to be dodge rolling or blocking.

I feel like no one on these forums really contemplates issues they see. "Nerf this nerf that". These [snip] nerfs are the things that have brought us here in the first place. That and ZOS *** decision to implement a powerfull stamina heal...that NO ONE ASKED FOR OR NEEDED....stamina toons back in the day just didnt know how to play theyre resource/ armor type

[edited for profanity]

Biro123 · April 2017

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Will be 'fixed' with the resource changes in morrowind. Either they will have big shields and be unable to sustain them, or they will be smaller and sustainable... Depending how they build.

I'm doubtful that will fix the issue completely if at all; harness magicka pays for itself and hardened when fighting magic builds. The only way I see to fix the issue is to prevent harness stacking with any other shield. No major/minor BS, just hard code it.

Harness does, yes - but the patch notes did say that they wanted rid of resource returns that scale on max stats - although they seem to have missed harness - I'm sure it will be added soon.

WalksonGraves · April 2017

Biro123 wrote: »

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Will be 'fixed' with the resource changes in morrowind. Either they will have big shields and be unable to sustain them, or they will be smaller and sustainable... Depending how they build.

I'm doubtful that will fix the issue completely if at all; harness magicka pays for itself and hardened when fighting magic builds. The only way I see to fix the issue is to prevent harness stacking with any other shield. No major/minor BS, just hard code it.

Harness does, yes - but the patch notes did say that they wanted rid of resource returns that scale on max stats - although they seem to have missed harness - I'm sure it will be added soon.

I'm more worried about invigorating drain, I need my 30k self heals.

psychotic13 · April 2017

Shields are far from OP, they're decent 1v1 but If you're trying to be defensive against more than 1 person shields will get torn straight down, dodge roll becomes superior

Yubarius · April 2017

KramUzibra wrote: »

B1ackjack187 wrote: »

Hello one of the biggest problems in eso in my opinion is magic shields aka "shield stacking" they negate too much. You can't crit them and armor/spell penetration doesn't effect them. So that pretty much negates racial passives, armor passives and gear, that's not good. Even in the champion tree shield stacking is ahead of the game while the rest of us are splitting up our red tree skill points shield stackers put 100 points into Bastion and theyre good against all damage. Please fix shields thank you.

They need to change! Fighting a skilled sorc that stacks between weaves and never let's their sheilds expire before reapplying all while able to effectively lay mines, streak and kite is to unbalance vs let's say medium armor using full two handed abilities. Plus their stun is incorporated in their primary dps so they don't have to worry about keeping those stuns up..

So fighting someone who is skilled at the class makes the class OP nowadays?