Would you take CP changes or Vertical Progression?

Rickter · March 2017

My question and also TL;DR: If you had to choose one over the other, would you rather accept the currently leaked CP changes to resource management and maintain horizontal progression OR would you rather them leave the resource management changes in CP as is, and ZOS address the power creep by introducing vertical progression aka: increasing gear level?

A lot of people are up in arms about the recently leaked CP Changes to Warlord/Magician & Mooncalf/Arcanist. Many theories are being thrown around as to why this change was even considered and unfortunately, that has led to people blaming the other aspect player of the game. Primarily, PvErs blaming PvPers for the changes. I tend to agree with that assessment because to me, it's obvious that ZOS is attempting to balance pvp further in lieu of Battlegrounds. But in my rantings and research, another aspect was presented: Its to also address the PvE power creep.

Essentially, The percentage of players who participate in competitive PvE content are currently pushing very high dps numbers. Nerfing cost reduction and regen forces those players to focus on regen and cost reduction over pure damage.

Now, one thing i love about ESO is its fairly horizontal progression. Gear levels have not increased in quite some time with the development focusing on CP progression and new gear sets in stead. They updated some older sets making them meta staples etc. Here is a good article in regards to what exactly Horizontal versus Vertical Progression is in MMO Land: LINK

But basically: Vertical progression is a more simplistic method of advancement in which your character levels up, and seeks higher level gear which is by default better than lower level gear. Horizontal Progression is more complex by instead focusing on providing many options and Progression is less defined by gear level etc.

Duiwel · March 2017

Really OP? Such a broad range of choices...

I will rather abstain from your poll & suggest that instead of Nerfing classes and the players and instead buffing the under-powered classes, bosses and other lacking elements.

Doing this to implement a feeling of "increased difficulty" is merely an illusion and a lazy method of going about it.

However increasing the gear level when you have terrible RNG on items such as sharpened Maelstrom bows, lightning, inferno staves and various other weapons...
Monster helmets and shoulders that can drop in x3 different armour values AS WELL AS in traits such as prosperous...

I certainly cannot see that as a viable solution either and do not even remotely see how you came to the conclusion that those two elements would be linked for the means of the alternative solution you are seeking.

EldritchPenguin · March 2017

Neither, really. I think the CP changes are ham-fisted, poorly thought out, and short sighted.

On the other hand, raising the gear level will accomplish nothing productive in the long run. Sure, we'll have higher stats, but the devs will inevitably scale the content back to whatever new height that they set the gear level to. So all that's accomplished here is making everyone's gear utterly useless overnight, which is an even worse change than the CP star changes.

I think they need to overhaul the CP system entirely and redistribute its power. Give us back the base stats they took away when they introduced the CP system, and remove the extra H/M/S that CP stars give us. That would be a great place to start.

Aquanova · March 2017

I rather ZOS wise up and stop messing around with things that don't need fixing and I stead work on more important, long standing problems.

Power creep vs Lag and disconnects. Which is more important?

Tandor · March 2017

Carry on as existing, I have no problem with the way it is.

That said, if you do want to tinker with champion points to create a better form of continued character progression from level 50 then the best way would be to make champion points character-specific rather than account-wide. The only issue at the moment is that once you've leveled one character all your other characters have no progression beyond level 50 because it's already been done for them. That's fine for those who just want instant endgame alts, but doesn't do anything for those who want meaningful progression for all their characters.

Elloa · March 2017

I would rather accept the currently leaked CP changes to resource management and maintain horizontal progression

I'm not competent in theoricrafting enough to have a proper opinion about HOW Zenimax should adresses the problems, but I do like horizontal progression.
I also believe there is a problem of balance with Damages that are way too high.

Shadow_Viper_vX · March 2017

Just keep CP as it is now

xSkullfox · March 2017

Gonna take answer 3, no changes to the current cp system.

Add more answers srsly !

Rickter · March 2017

I would rather accept the currently leaked CP changes to resource management and maintain horizontal progression

Duiwel wrote: »

I certainly cannot see that as a viable solution either and do not even remotely see how you came to the conclusion that those two elements would be linked for the means of the alternative solution you are seeking.

I never claimed to or sought to create a poll with absolute solution oriented options. I said the changes to CP were to address pvp balance in battlegrounds and specifically what this poll is focusing on: adressing the power creep in pve.

The question was, if you had to choose, would you accept those cp changes to stave off the power creep and maintain this games horizontal progression - or would you say "eff it, i want my cost reduction and regen embedded in CP" which would not address the power creep which would damage horizontal progression and elements of vertical progression would seep into the game.

Zvorgin · March 2017

Raising gear level is more a tool to extract wealth from the economy, this isn't needed since we just had housing as a huge wealth sink.

A gear level raise with current RNG elements and I would personallly quit. I've already had to grind too much for the gear I have, if a restart is required without an adjustment to RNG it would be too much.

As far as power creep, 1T made most of the game too easy, so how about end game mobs and vet dungeon mobs get increased from CP150 to a higher level CP, maybe CP180? I don't think Zos will fix overland and that's fine.

Saint_Bud · March 2017

Many said that befor homestad that the monsterset nearf (no crit) will reduce the dps and they were all wrong. Same will be when player run with 1-2 coastreduction glyphs. The differant from bis to not so goof sets is really small so no reason to make panic. Reg in pve was always not a good choise and in pvp reg builds change to coastreduction.

DeadlyRecluse · March 2017

1. No gear increase (or as rarely as possible, please).
2. A rework of CP that avoids nerfing PvE players while still making build decisions more meaningful in PvP.

Mojmir · March 2017

Neither

Galenus_of_Pergamon · March 2017

I would rather them leave the resource management changes in CP as is, and ZOS address the power creep by introducing vertical progression aka: increasing gear level

Tandor wrote: »

Carry on as existing, I have no problem with the way it is.

That said, if you do want to tinker with champion points to create a better form of continued character progression from level 50 then the best way would be to make champion points character-specific rather than account-wide. The only issue at the moment is that once you've leveled one character all your other characters have no progression beyond level 50 because it's already been done for them. That's fine for those who just want instant endgame alts, but doesn't do anything for those who want meaningful progression for all their characters.

This would alienate a lot of casual players. Reaching 600cp on multiple characters is nearly impossible for those of us that have full-time jobs and/or family obligations.

Maybe a lot of people would like to see the game cater to hardcore players like this, but Zenimax wants to capture as big of an audience as possible. Personally, I'd dread having to get multiple characters to high CP levels or CP cap. Even with account-wide CP, there is still a lot of gear grinding to be done to optimize builds. This is hardcore enough for me, but I cannot speak for everyone.

Rickter · March 2017

I would rather accept the currently leaked CP changes to resource management and maintain horizontal progression

Galenus_of_Pergamon wrote: »

Maybe a lot of people would like to see the game cater to hardcore players like this, but Zenimax wants to capture as big of an audience as possible.

You'd think right? but the current CP changes are really only going to widen the gap for endgame content. Which some people are great proponents for.

Kodrac · March 2017

I would rather accept the currently leaked CP changes to resource management and maintain horizontal progression

Horizontal > Vertical

Build variety > meta stacking

Crap > Current CP system

Voxicity · March 2017

I would rather accept the currently leaked CP changes to resource management and maintain horizontal progression

Game is already far too easy. You can complete the hardest content in the game without even seeing one of the most important mechanics (lunar cycle) because of the insane amount of dps we output. Give us a reason to spec into recovery and find our own balance and make our builds more personal

rotaugen454 · March 2017

I would rather accept the currently leaked CP changes to resource management and maintain horizontal progression

As someone with top gear and 776 CP, it would benefit me to have things not change, however, I realize that power creep is very real every time I team up with my lower CP friends and I can clear areas they struggle in.

Tandor · March 2017

Galenus_of_Pergamon wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Carry on as existing, I have no problem with the way it is.

That said, if you do want to tinker with champion points to create a better form of continued character progression from level 50 then the best way would be to make champion points character-specific rather than account-wide. The only issue at the moment is that once you've leveled one character all your other characters have no progression beyond level 50 because it's already been done for them. That's fine for those who just want instant endgame alts, but doesn't do anything for those who want meaningful progression for all their characters.

This would alienate a lot of casual players. Reaching 600cp on multiple characters is nearly impossible for those of us that have full-time jobs and/or family obligations.

Maybe a lot of people would like to see the game cater to hardcore players like this, but Zenimax wants to capture as big of an audience as possible. Personally, I'd dread having to get multiple characters to high CP levels or CP cap. Even with account-wide CP, there is still a lot of gear grinding to be done to optimize builds. This is hardcore enough for me, but I cannot speak for everyone.

Such an approach is only catering to hardcore players and spoiling things for casual players if you accept the argument that "Rome has to be built in a day". I'm casual, I play limited hours and split those hours across multiple characters (and games) - and yet I favour developing all my characters equally and fully and hate short-cuts. I simply accept that it will take a long time to do that, which is why I play MMOs that are intended to be my main gaming home for years rather than an offline game that can be finished in a couple of weeks.

I fully realise it's not a popular view, but it is a way of providing meaningful character progression. The problem is that there are people who don't want to have time-challenging content, and there are people who complain that there's nothing to do - and quite often they are one and the same people

!

Rickter · March 2017

I would rather accept the currently leaked CP changes to resource management and maintain horizontal progression

KaiVox22 wrote: »

Game is already far too easy. You can complete the hardest content in the game without even seeing one of the most important mechanics (lunar cycle) because of the insane amount of dps we output. Give us a reason to spec into recovery and find our own balance and make our builds more personal

I like this statement.

I suppose folks are afraid of feeling weaker, but if it affects everyone then its not a big deal.

Bam_Bam · March 2017

Kinda, ever so slightly, stilted opinion poll (nice try OP). To answer the question - I'm more than happy as things are. Most of my time is spent in Cyrodiil in Azura's Star NO-CP campaign so the changes coming don't impact me. But that aside, increasing gear level etc is never a good solution as it causes people to have to refried and THAT is a game killer. Better to increase the variety of monsters, armour and weapons. I'd like to see hard challenges rewarded with personalised/one off weapons and gear.

Rickter · March 2017

I would rather accept the currently leaked CP changes to resource management and maintain horizontal progression

Baranthus wrote: »

But that aside, increasing gear level etc is never a good solution as it causes people to have to refried and THAT is a game killer. Better to increase the variety of monsters, armour and weapons. I'd like to see hard challenges rewarded with personalised/one off weapons and gear.

I dont agree with you on this. I love horizontal progression but games like WoW are still chugging along regardless of the gear grind and it simplifies the game - providing more options and forcing players to theorycraft a build might sound great on paper, but in reality, its daunting for a new player not understanding what they have to do to get more than 12k dps

idk · March 2017

Many are not up in arms about this change. Yes, it's on our mind. Many serious competitive raiders will look at it on the PTS rather than make hasty opinions with only partial information. Especially since live has no regen issues raids vs his this game has been historically at time.

History tells us the sky is likely not falling. When tanks open st stam regen while blocking we survived. When block cost reduction was shuffled around and the CP was put in competition with stat regen and cost reduction, we survived.

We will probably be fine with small adjustments.

EvilCroc · March 2017

I would rather them leave the resource management changes in CP as is, and ZOS address the power creep by introducing vertical progression aka: increasing gear level

I like power creep. It should be balanced with new, harder content, not nerfing.
CP's are pure time investments. Nobody likes inflation and investments value decrease.

Cryptical · March 2017

Neither.

Leave it as is. Modify the early game to more rigorously exercise the importance of learning how to play the character in a wider variety of scenarios, and thus blunt the ability of grinding to create champ level players who don't know how to bash or avoid area attacks. Modify the late game to more rigorously exercise the importance of perfecting the rough techniques learned in the modified early game.

Example: We all know that any class can effectively tank, or heal, or dps. Taking away resources will only diminish the other classes ability to run content with a sorc / nb / dk as healer - effectively enforcing the Templar as the only class capable of filling that healer role. The first impact of removing resource buffs will have a secondary ripple of limiting my placement in late game content, merely by what has befallen others.

I'm not refusing to acknowledge the issue that Zeni is trying to address, I just think that there is a more-effective way to go that will alleviate other issues at the same time.

In other news, the change I want to see most is a taxidermist. I want to be able to convert my collectible rare fish into housing furnishings. I want to turn my magrove shark into a decoration the size of a senche pet. I want the viperfish to be the size of the bear cub. Eels, pikes, marlins, piranha, and more. I've got what feels like 50 of these named rare fish in my inventory because of the desperate hope of making an aquarium to go with the angler boat. Please.

Emma_Overload · March 2017

I would rather them leave the resource management changes in CP as is, and ZOS address the power creep by introducing vertical progression aka: increasing gear level

The proposed CP changes are a flat out BETRAYAL to everyone who has invested hundreds of hours grinding CP to progress their characters, so I choose the other option.

Rickter · March 2017

I would rather accept the currently leaked CP changes to resource management and maintain horizontal progression

I feel like if, at the end of the day, both pvp balance and pve powercreep is addressed while preserving horizontal progression, then its a win win for players. you will just need to slot resource management gear sets and be smart when building your character which is what ZOS wanted in the beginning i believe.

Skayaq · March 2017

I would rather accept the currently leaked CP changes to resource management and maintain horizontal progression

Well I'm all for making resource management matter, and I would hate a gear level increase.

KochDerDamonen · March 2017

I would rather accept the currently leaked CP changes to resource management and maintain horizontal progression

Sustain is absolutely out of whack

IronCrystal · March 2017

I would rather accept the currently leaked CP changes to resource management and maintain horizontal progression

KaiVox22 wrote: »

Game is already far too easy. You can complete the hardest content in the game without even seeing one of the most important mechanics (lunar cycle) because of the insane amount of dps we output. Give us a reason to spec into recovery and find our own balance and make our builds more personal

Most group's minimum dps requirement is so they can skip lunar phase...most people don't want to go through that crazy mechanic. No matter the changes, people will always have a minimum requirement to be able to skip lunar, unless they all know what they plan on getting into. My group has a harder time completing the fang focused achievement than completing the trial itself.

Edit: I would also like to add that vet trials right now aren't too easy for the vast majority of players. How many do you think have actually cleared vMoL? Let alone vMoL hard mode? I'm only bringing this up since you seem to believe that vMoL is easy when you bring up lunar phase.

I've done vMoL plenty of times (wow ZOS why make it weekly twice in a row PC NA, I'm tired of running it every day lol), but know a lot of my friends that can't get into vMoL groups because it's difficult mechanically along with the high dps requirement.

Chilly-McFreeze · March 2017

I was going to write a wall of text but I'm so tired of this. Your poll is bad, your link doesn't reads neutral, you seem to have an agenda. You should feel bad, OP.

The Elder Scrolls Online

Would you take CP changes or Vertical Progression?

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