Morrowind and Enrage Timers

Ch4mpTW · March 2017

Does anyone know what's going to happen with them? If damage is going to be lowered in response to having to build for sustain, rather than building for damage... What is going to happen with enrage-based mechanics? Or mechanics that cause you to take increased damage the longer a fight drags on?

For example, let's look at VMA. Crematorial Guards have a passive DOT that increases the longer they are left alive. A creature/monster that was originally added in the Imperial City update. What is going to happen with them? If we don't kill them in time, we'll get melted by its DOT. Same as the atronachs in Imperial City Prison. If you don't kill them in time, they'll enrage and one-shot players. Is that being done away with?

Or back on the topic of VMA, the longer you stay on the top part of the second phase of Stage 9's final boss round — the more damage you take. Thus causing you to either die, or drop down and deal with another Crematorial Guard and Clanfeer. And thus repeat the whole progress again. What is going to happen with that?

Better yet, let's look at things from a different perspective. Let's look at fights that give you more adds to deal with the longer fights carry on for. Such as the second boss in VMoL. The longer you carry on the fight, the more adds you have to chain and or deal with. Is that being removed and or nerfed? Or the fact that if you kill 1 way before the other, you essentially get wiped (assuming you take too long to burn the last boss alive down). Is that being done away with, or changed?

There's just so many mechanics involving these types of things that I'm genuinely curious about. Any type of feedback would be awesome, and much appreciated.

Rohamad_Ali · March 2017

I imagine the Dev team will need to look at how these things work with the changes and if it shifts out of balance , make NPC corrections and adjustments .

Ch4mpTW · March 2017

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I imagine the Dev team will need to look at how these things work with the changes and if it shifts out of balance , make NPC corrections and adjustments .

@Rohamad_Ali I'd imagine that too, however that would require a LOT of overhauls and tweaks to be done. And while I'm aware that Morrowind is supposed to usher in a wave of new changes, this particular change (if one is actually being done) would be among the most dramatic. They'd essentially be changing a lot of deeply-rooted mechanics, which would cause certain things to have to be re-learned and mastered. All due to core mechanics being altered. As previously mentioned, certain creatures/monsters even would have to be redone.

Rohamad_Ali · March 2017

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I imagine the Dev team will need to look at how these things work with the changes and if it shifts out of balance , make NPC corrections and adjustments .

@Rohamad_Ali I'd imagine that too, however that would require a LOT of overhauls and tweaks to be done. And while I'm aware that Morrowind is supposed to usher in a wave of new changes, this particular change (if one is actually being done) would be among the most dramatic. They'd essentially be changing a lot of deeply-rooted mechanics, which would cause certain things to have to be re-learned and mastered. All due to core mechanics being altered. As previously mentioned, certain creatures/monsters even would have to be redone.

If those changes are necessary . They may have already made the adjustments . Either way we will need to re learn some playstyle for the greater good . The CP system in its current state has been formulated to perfection by some players and they are now PVE and PVP immortals . ZoS is at least recognizing this and making a effort to bring some balance back . I expect there to be big and small issues when ever ZoS holds the scales with a blindfold but you know who might have more insight on this play change would be @FENGRUSH and @Sypher who were both there to test Marrorwind material . I would ask them or one of the others there how it effects playing against those types of NPCs , if they even got a chance . I think there focus was battlegrounds but they would know the most and or who did do PVE .

lolo_01b16_ESO · March 2017

There is a general rule in mmos that the damage you do increases every patch. I'm pretty sure this will also happen this time. You might have to change your build, but you will most likely still be able to do everything you can do now.
Just look at the homestead patch. People cried that they would loose so much dps with the changes to elemental drain, warhorn, non crit monstersets, aether, ... and what happened? - We do more damage than ever before.

smacx250 · March 2017

I don't think the Dev team will do anything - difficulty changes for everyone, and unless it makes the content unbearable at the most basic levels (which it obviously doesn't as they don't have CP) or unplayable at the higher levels (doubt it) it's tough luck and get to work beating it. It's not like difficulty doesn't change over time with all kinds of balance changes that are made. This is just another.

Ch4mpTW · March 2017

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

There is a general rule in mmos that the damage you do increases every patch. I'm pretty sure this will also happen this time. You might have to change your build, but you will most likely still be able to do everything you can do now.
Just look at the homestead patch. People cried that they would loose so much dps with the changes to elemental drain, warhorn, non crit monstersets, aether, ... and what happened? - We do more damage than ever before.

I personally never was with that particular bandwagon of how Homestead would result in major DPS losses. This is because I was always a PetSorc from the jump (pets were buffed), I always was a MagDK (MagDK's for the most were buffed, although they still lack in regards to sustain), and the changes made to Elemental Drain and Warhorn I didn't find too critical. If anything, I found the Elemental Drain change to be a buff. The non-crit monster set change I found to be disappointing, but eh. It wasn't too dramatic of a negative change (although a decent DPS loss). But yeah. The only thing I felt experienced the most negative impact was my MagPlar, which while I feel can sustain a bit more — is now lacking in regards to DPS. The Blazing Spear nerf was completely unneeded, and I feel the devs went way too hard on the Radiant Destruction nerf.

Those things above aside however, the things I mentioned in my initial post I feel will have the most profound effect on the game (if in fact they are altered). We're talking about entire CORE mechanics to things shifting, and or being brought into the equation. Like say AA for example. The longer you take to kill the boss, the more axes the tanks have to deal with. Although I have no tank characters, I'd absolutely hate having to manage 9 or more axes wailing on me. All because of damage being dropped, due to having to build around sustain. That'd be horrible.

zaria · March 2017

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I imagine the Dev team will need to look at how these things work with the changes and if it shifts out of balance , make NPC corrections and adjustments .

@Rohamad_Ali I'd imagine that too, however that would require a LOT of overhauls and tweaks to be done. And while I'm aware that Morrowind is supposed to usher in a wave of new changes, this particular change (if one is actually being done) would be among the most dramatic. They'd essentially be changing a lot of deeply-rooted mechanics, which would cause certain things to have to be re-learned and mastered. All due to core mechanics being altered. As previously mentioned, certain creatures/monsters even would have to be redone.

If those changes are necessary . They may have already made the adjustments . Either way we will need to re learn some playstyle for the greater good . The CP system in its current state has been formulated to perfection by some players and they are now PVE and PVP immortals . ZoS is at least recognizing this and making a effort to bring some balance back . I expect there to be big and small issues when ever ZoS holds the scales with a blindfold but you know who might have more insight on this play change would be @FENGRUSH and @Sypher who were both there to test Marrorwind material . I would ask them or one of the others there how it effects playing against those types of NPCs , if they even got a chance . I think there focus was battlegrounds but they would know the most and or who did do PVE .

I don't understand how this was not predicted?
Was it not tested with cp600 characters on players who min/max?
Don't require lots of competence.

And using the upcoming meta battlegrounds builds for balancing the game will be insane.
Yes it will be very easy to pull data on who classes, build and races who does well in battlegrounds far easier than Cyrodil or PvE so it would be easy to use for balancing.
This was the argument against small scale organized PvP during beta.

We all know organized groups of good players will own the battleground hard after a few days as its no ranking system.

Ep1kMalware · March 2017

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Does anyone know what's going to happen with them? If damage is going to be lowered in response to having to build for sustain, rather than building for damage... What is going to happen with enrage-based mechanics? Or mechanics that cause you to take increased damage the longer a fight drags on?

For example, let's look at VMA. Crematorial Guards have a passive DOT that increases the longer they are left alive. A creature/monster that was originally added in the Imperial City update. What is going to happen with them? If we don't kill them in time, we'll get melted by its DOT. Same as the atronachs in Imperial City Prison. If you don't kill them in time, they'll enrage and one-shot players. Is that being done away with?

Or back on the topic of VMA, the longer you stay on the top part of the second phase of Stage 9's final boss round — the more damage you take. Thus causing you to either die, or drop down and deal with another Crematorial Guard and Clanfeer. And thus repeat the whole progress again. What is going to happen with that?

Better yet, let's look at things from a different perspective. Let's look at fights that give you more adds to deal with the longer fights carry on for. Such as the second boss in VMoL. The longer you carry on the fight, the more adds you have to chain and or deal with. Is that being removed and or nerfed? Or the fact that if you kill 1 way before the other, you essentially get wiped (assuming you take too long to burn the last boss alive down). Is that being done away with, or changed?

There's just so many mechanics involving these types of things that I'm genuinely curious about. Any type of feedback would be awesome, and much appreciated.

This is thenpart that confuses me the most. They already punish you for lvling up by increasing skill cost, and encourage high dps in vet dungeons by adding enrage timers. Like manticora, bloodspawn, or the adjudicator. They've done nothing but promote high damage/group sustain gameplay. But now they want 'lower the ceiling' without making any sort of infrastructure changes while dropping another trial with what I am sure has more enrage mechanics.

I can't see this positively, it's just too lazy.

alexkdd99 · March 2017

Waseem wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Waseem wrote: »

we will learn to play and make less QQ threads of "game is too easy"

Wow OP layed out a well thought issue that is a legitimate concern and your stupid ass just
said GG?

Pathetic

you come to video games forums to flame people?

Pathetic

Ummmm what do you call your first post? The first post in the thread to flame someone I might add.

On topic. It doesn't seem zos wants to talk about it and is one of those subjects they keep locked away. No worry though, I am taking a little break to play ghost recon wildcards, maybe I will become concerned when it happens.

I just wish they wouldn't make big sweeping changes, and instead made small incremental ones. But I know that is asking to much. I just have this feeling they are going to screw something big up when they release morrowind.

ericprydz82ub17_ESO · March 2017

I can't even remember a patch that made raid dps drop as a whole. Sure, once CP had a hard cap introduced but beyond that, no. Our damage will be better than before with the CP increase, new sets, new class introduced into raids.

BeardedOrphan · March 2017

Simple answer to this post is that if damage does drop as low as the OP is insinuating then we will just have to actually follow mechanics again.

Ch4mpTW · March 2017

Loganpierz11ub17_ESO wrote: »

Simple answer to this post is that if damage does drop as low as the OP is insinuating then we will just have to actually follow mechanics again.

But that's not exactly what I think the solution would be. Especially when we are already following mechanics for certainly things. Like take the first boss of VMoL for an example. You have no choice but to follow mechanics. However, there is a shield phase. If you don't destroy that shield in time, the group gets wiped. That will be very problematic if damage is significantly lowered. Thus resulting in VMoL being once again a trial that hardly anyone can complete. Granted a decent amount of guilds have completed VMoL now, with some even skipping lunar on the standard version and a select few having beaten it on hard mode. The upcoming patch could make said things damn near impossible.

Sheva I 7 I · March 2017

tho

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Loganpierz11ub17_ESO wrote: »

Simple answer to this post is that if damage does drop as low as the OP is insinuating then we will just have to actually follow mechanics again.

But that's not exactly what I think the solution would be. Especially when we are already following mechanics for certainly things. Like take the first boss of VMoL for an example. You have no choice but to follow mechanics. However, there is a shield phase. If you don't destroy that shield in time, the group gets wiped. That will be very problematic if damage is significantly lowered. Thus resulting in VMoL being once again a trial that hardly anyone can complete. Granted a decent amount of guilds have completed VMoL now, with some even skipping lunar on the standard version and a select few having beaten it on hard mode. The upcoming patch could make said things damn near impossible.

You can lower that shield phase with half decent group (everyone @ 25k dps on skeletons)

Ch4mpTW · March 2017

Sheva I 7 I wrote: »

tho

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Loganpierz11ub17_ESO wrote: »

Simple answer to this post is that if damage does drop as low as the OP is insinuating then we will just have to actually follow mechanics again.

But that's not exactly what I think the solution would be. Especially when we are already following mechanics for certainly things. Like take the first boss of VMoL for an example. You have no choice but to follow mechanics. However, there is a shield phase. If you don't destroy that shield in time, the group gets wiped. That will be very problematic if damage is significantly lowered. Thus resulting in VMoL being once again a trial that hardly anyone can complete. Granted a decent amount of guilds have completed VMoL now, with some even skipping lunar on the standard version and a select few having beaten it on hard mode. The upcoming patch could make said things damn near impossible.

You can lower that shield phase with half decent group (everyone @ 25k dps on skeletons)

I agree, but what are you supposed to do once sustain goes down the drain...? You have people building for resources and when you build for resources, your damage output plummets. So that simple mechanic of burning the boss' shields becomes more of a challenge. You see where this is going?

Paulington · March 2017

Nothing needs to change.

Myself and many others have done vMA with zero CP spent, we almost managed to clear vMOL with 300 CP templates and nowadays enrage isn't even thought about. Rakkhat is almost always killed in one lunar cycle by any guild running vMOL.

The stark reality of the proposed change is about a ~350 spell damage loss for magicka DPS users. Whilst that is a large chunk, it's not going to suddenly make content unplayable. Back when it released we had far less DPS than we would have come this change and we still managed it.

Shader_Shibes · March 2017

They aint gonna change anything regarding enrage timers. Whats the point in nerfing us and nerfing mechanics at the same time?

Vahrokh · March 2017

Shader_Shibes wrote: »

They aint gonna change anything regarding enrage timers. Whats the point in nerfing us and nerfing mechanics at the same time?

Well, there could be a point, considering the changes are going to affect non hard core trials guilds struggling with vet trials as is.

ZOS_Ragnar · March 2017

We have removed some comments that were disruptive to the discussion. Please ensure your posts are contributing to the discussion is a civil and constructive manner.

mr_wazzabi · March 2017

Paulington wrote: »

Nothing needs to change.

Myself and many others have done vMA with zero CP spent, we almost managed to clear vMOL with 300 CP templates and nowadays enrage isn't even thought about. Rakkhat is almost always killed in one lunar cycle by any guild running vMOL.

The stark reality of the proposed change is about a ~350 spell damage loss for magicka DPS users. Whilst that is a large chunk, it's not going to suddenly make content unplayable. Back when it released we had far less DPS than we would have come this change and we still managed it.

Good for you. The other 90% of players need the cp

Nifty2g · March 2017

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Paulington wrote: »

Nothing needs to change.

Myself and many others have done vMA with zero CP spent, we almost managed to clear vMOL with 300 CP templates and nowadays enrage isn't even thought about. Rakkhat is almost always killed in one lunar cycle by any guild running vMOL.

The stark reality of the proposed change is about a ~350 spell damage loss for magicka DPS users. Whilst that is a large chunk, it's not going to suddenly make content unplayable. Back when it released we had far less DPS than we would have come this change and we still managed it.

Good for you. The other 90% of players need the cp

You come in here to imply that he is elitist, but look at your attitude, you are acting more entitled than he is lol.

Ch4mpTW · March 2017

Paulington wrote: »

Nothing needs to change.

Myself and many others have done vMA with zero CP spent, we almost managed to clear vMOL with 300 CP templates and nowadays enrage isn't even thought about. Rakkhat is almost always killed in one lunar cycle by any guild running vMOL.

The stark reality of the proposed change is about a ~350 spell damage loss for magicka DPS users. Whilst that is a large chunk, it's not going to suddenly make content unplayable. Back when it released we had far less DPS than we would have come this change and we still managed it.

You've done VMA with no CP spent? What? Wait what? I'm not trying to call you a liar, but I've never heard of anyone doing that. I've heard of others being told to do it, if they wanted a challenge. But until now have never actually heard of someone doing it. Never seen a video of it either.

Also, you're aware that just because say some seasoned players are able to do something like that — it means nothing to those who still struggle to do it. There's still a huge majority of players who still have yet to even beat VMA to this day, and let alone Flawless Conqueror it. And that's on both PC-NA and PS4-NA. You see what I mean? How can a change like this going through encourage players to want to complete the content at hand now? If they couldn't do the content while things were easy (for the most part in our opinion), what are they supposed to do down the road when things are vastly more difficult?

Nelson_Rebel · March 2017

ZOS_RyanM wrote: »

We have removed some comments that were disruptive to the discussion. Please ensure your posts are contributing to the discussion is a civil and constructive manner.

Agreed, apologies for the obstruction.

Anyways, back to on topic.

Paulington wrote: »

Nothing needs to change.

Myself and many others have done vMA with zero CP spent, we almost managed to clear vMOL with 300 CP templates and nowadays enrage isn't even thought about. Rakkhat is almost always killed in one lunar cycle by any guild running vMOL.

The stark reality of the proposed change is about a ~350 spell damage loss for magicka DPS users. Whilst that is a large chunk, it's not going to suddenly make content unplayable. Back when it released we had far less DPS than we would have come this change and we still managed it.

I'v mentioned this in multiple other threads, JUST BECAUSE you and YOUR buddies and maybe a couple streamers. DOES NOT justify that the changes are "good as is" and that people should just "l2p"

that's lazy, narrow minded thinking. Right now all content takes into account current CP effects because it calculates our CP damage and content is attuned to our CURRENT damage capability.

Therefore it only makes sense to adjust certain aspects of the game to compensate

Ch4mpTW · March 2017

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

ZOS_RyanM wrote: »

We have removed some comments that were disruptive to the discussion. Please ensure your posts are contributing to the discussion is a civil and constructive manner.

Agreed, apologies for the obstruction.

Anyways, back to on topic.

Paulington wrote: »

Nothing needs to change.

Myself and many others have done vMA with zero CP spent, we almost managed to clear vMOL with 300 CP templates and nowadays enrage isn't even thought about. Rakkhat is almost always killed in one lunar cycle by any guild running vMOL.

The stark reality of the proposed change is about a ~350 spell damage loss for magicka DPS users. Whilst that is a large chunk, it's not going to suddenly make content unplayable. Back when it released we had far less DPS than we would have come this change and we still managed it.

I'v mentioned this in multiple other threads, JUST BECAUSE you and YOUR buddies and maybe a couple streamers. DOES NOT justify that the changes are "good as is" and that people should just "l2p"

that's lazy, narrow minded thinking. Right now all content takes into account current CP effects because it calculates our CP damage and content is attuned to our CURRENT damage capability.

Therefore it only makes sense to adjust certain aspects of the game to compensate

@Nelson_Rebel That's how I view things. I mean, just imagine trying to do VMA on a MagDK with no CP allocated. You're literally asking for torment at that point, and failure. Am I saying it can't be done? No. But why on Earth even attempt something like that. And trust me, I've done a lot of questionable things for a challenge regarding VMA. Such as using a PetSorc to farm it (I've been using a PetSorc literally since I've started playing ESO), to calling myself beating VMA with no weapons used (MagPlar attempt).

So yeah, I've challenged myself in a variety of means as well. But, something as delicate as CP should be handled accordingly in places like VMA and VMoL. Regardless of your skill and knowledge of the task(s) at hand there. Even at the cap, I still struggle to maintain resources in VMA on my MagDK. And that's with a best-in-slot setup of: Grothdarr, BSW, Maelstrom Inferno, and Maelstrom Resto. With 3pcs. Moondancer on top. And before asked, yes. I use double Destro when in a group of others doing content on my MagDK. But anyway, it's still hard to sustain with it. It's incredibly hard. Why? Because ZOS made DK skills cost a ton. Why they did that, I have no idea. But, the fact still remains.