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Should Warlord and Magician be removed
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pieratsos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yes Remove themCompletely remove every single combat related passive from CP and replace it with convenience passives like master gatherer. Then adjust the content.
There u go, u fixed cp and u can raise the cap every patch without completely breaking balance.3 -
Eshja✭✭✭✭This is Zenimax and Bethesda's game so if they think it should be removed - it should be. They're trying to improve the game.
And during ESO live Gina said that this is part of big change so we shouldn't really judge it till we won't see all the changes.
improve the game with big nerf where top player will a bit feel this nerf in HM trials while average players will feel very big hurt to just vet trials, without hm...so it should look like?
There was an information somewhere that most of vMols was done ignoring mechanic of last boss, just nuking, this will make it impossible so not only average players will be nerfed.
And most of problems on trials is not bashing, not ressurecting, not stacking (or stacking too much when we shouldn't stack) and not observing the boss carefully. Not the dps, hps etc. Excepting vMol there is not much situations when too low dps can wipe a team. Just wispmother in vAA I think... Bash and block are main problems of right side of vHRC which is estimated as harder than left side.
on vMoL maybe...but what about vAA hard mode? with to low dps you wont go to 50% boss because of so fast respawning storm atronach and mini-mages with it, without huge dps you wont do it, same on vHRC hm, without enough huge dps also single gargoyle is huge problem and what when boss will go into enrage phase and all firecasters and warrios will wakeup? 2 healers wont heal this insnae damage.
and about vMoL hard mode...at all now still so small amount of player have done this so boss burnt without all mechancicks or no....at all you need huge dps to kill boss with comming adds with time and dps loss will wipe group because adds will be not killed enough fast and with it is comming more harder work to healer to keep everyone alive keeping all buffs on group and support
I don't think it'll be impossible to finish HM, if it will be - we can only cry on forums. But Zenimax don't want to make game impossible, just harder. And for me it's okay to make hard modes actually really hard.
And remember that we're trying to nuke every boss so long that we almost forgot about tactics. Maybe we will need to think more instead of doing wave and anim cancel? Okay, probably we will need to do it still, but more tactics would be fine.
Zeni will make ESO unplayable only when they would want to destroy it and release TESVI or ESO 2. And everything in CP can be changed if it'll be ineffective. So no need to panic.
Edited by Eshja on March 20, 2017 1:19PM@Eshja (PC EU) Master crafter | Roleplayer | Trial scrub | Love healing ♥
My characters: Nimpys Elenmir| Narielle Telvanni | Moans-Loudly | Vivienne The Zookeeper | Zamiatająca-Ogonem | Kha'mathre | Irgret Soul-Breaker0 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes Remove themDon't care either way. The players will adapt.
like always because they are forced to this, especially top player will adapt without huge problem while average player who now can have problem with vet trials after nerf like this he will have much bigger problem to be able at all done vet trial
What i think is that we are looking at one (potential) change torn out of context of all the other changes that will (likely) accompany it.
Would removing warlord and co. make trials much harder for the players who struggle with them even now? Undoubtedly.
But.
Would ZOS want to make trials unplayable for the players who currently are able to (barely) complete it? I very much doubt that. So let's wait and see the whole package first before crying foul.4 -
Edziu✭✭✭✭✭
✭This is Zenimax and Bethesda's game so if they think it should be removed - it should be. They're trying to improve the game.
And during ESO live Gina said that this is part of big change so we shouldn't really judge it till we won't see all the changes.
improve the game with big nerf where top player will a bit feel this nerf in HM trials while average players will feel very big hurt to just vet trials, without hm...so it should look like?
There was an information somewhere that most of vMols was done ignoring mechanic of last boss, just nuking, this will make it impossible so not only average players will be nerfed.
And most of problems on trials is not bashing, not ressurecting, not stacking (or stacking too much when we shouldn't stack) and not observing the boss carefully. Not the dps, hps etc. Excepting vMol there is not much situations when too low dps can wipe a team. Just wispmother in vAA I think... Bash and block are main problems of right side of vHRC which is estimated as harder than left side.
on vMoL maybe...but what about vAA hard mode? with to low dps you wont go to 50% boss because of so fast respawning storm atronach and mini-mages with it, without huge dps you wont do it, same on vHRC hm, without enough huge dps also single gargoyle is huge problem and what when boss will go into enrage phase and all firecasters and warrios will wakeup? 2 healers wont heal this insnae damage.
and about vMoL hard mode...at all now still so small amount of player have done this so boss burnt without all mechancicks or no....at all you need huge dps to kill boss with comming adds with time and dps loss will wipe group because adds will be not killed enough fast and with it is comming more harder work to healer to keep everyone alive keeping all buffs on group and support
I don't think it'll be impossible to finish HM, if it will be - we can only cry on forums. But Zenimax don't want to make game impossible, just harder. And for me it's okay to make hard modes actually really hard.
And remember that we're trying to nuke every boss so long that we almost forgot about tactics. Maybe we will need to think more instead of doing wave and anim cancel? Okay, probably we will need to do it still, but more tactics would be fine.
Zeni will make ESO unplayable only when they would want to destroy it and release TESVI or ESO 2. And everything in CP can be changed if it'll be ineffective. So no need to panic.
yeah we want harder content...but as other player writing.....still same old content, nothing new so why we should get nerf and doing it much longer etc if we have done it and just for fun, "sport", why I should struggle with same old conent without nothhing new? more sense will be to add mechanics like we have in cradle and mazzatun dung, until you do this mechanic you cant damage to boss but now seriousily when not very much people are able to dont just vet trial then what about very very less amount of people able to dont hm vet trial now? with nerf like this ZOS is doing impossible to do very old content for non-top players just because they dont want to skip mechanics?
sorry but in v HRC and AA unskippalbe mechanics with just nonsotp comming adds are hm, nerf will force to do mechanics only in hm vMoL while AA and HRC will be impossible to done for more players because of lower dps.
and as I wrote....if they want people to not skip mechanics then they should or just new content which is comming with morrowind or just rework current trials mechanics to be like mazzatun and cradle dung instead of nerf everyone, people will be force to do those mechanics instead of skipping and will b eno nerfs to everyone1 -
ookami007✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes Remove themYes, the sooner they send this game into it's death spiral, the sooner my wife and I can move onto something else.
Unlike the hardcore players, we will never see Maelstrom or raids, we are casual players that enjoy casual gaming. But it's obvious to us that the developers have no clear direction and this constant nerfing of things THEY CREATED is getting tiresome.
They tried AND FAILED to balance a PvP and PvE game, as so many before them. But you CAN'T DO IT. There are diametrically opposed mechanics in fighting players as there are in fighting PvE bosses, raid bosses and even just trash mobs. This is fact. YOU CANNOT RECONCILE THE TWO. PERIOD. END OF STORY. DISCUSSION OVER.
The problem is, they cannot admit this and this are constantly trying to balance something that cannot be balanced.
They need to create a PvP megaserver and a PvE megaserver and never the two shall meet. Then, balance the PvP for PvP mechanics and PvE for PvE mechanics. It actually opens up some very interesting possibilities for both.
But that will never happen because ZoS will continue to beat the dead horse. And beat it... and beat it... and beat it.
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deadlychaos1991✭✭✭No Magician and Warlord should stayOkay so my biggest issue wth removing these comes from a pve perspective. Have you ever played an end game damage dealer mag sorc or stamplar? They can't sustain for **** as it is....don't take away one thing that helps them be semi viable. People can barely complete a dps parse on a 3 mil dummy on a sorc without running out of mana and destroying their time. Don't make it any worse.
I think champ points should be left alone and instead, some limitation should be put into battle spirit for pvp. I understand that it's a problem in pvp but to be honest the biggest problem plaguing pvp right now is proc sets. People have quit the game due to it. Fix proc sets first, then start tackling champ points.
But blanket nerfing doesn't really fix the problem.3 -
Liofa✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yes Remove themCPs carry people . Any kind of spamming will be gone . No more shield spamming . No more BoL spamming . People will actually have to play smart . I support it completely .
Anyone who plays in Azura and Trueflame seperately knows what I am talking about . Difference CP makes in sustain is huge . Do high damage , have crazy sustain and be tanky at the same time . This is what CP did to the game . They never should have implemented CP from start . Champion System is unbalanced and should be removed completely .2 -
Eshja✭✭✭✭This is Zenimax and Bethesda's game so if they think it should be removed - it should be. They're trying to improve the game.
And during ESO live Gina said that this is part of big change so we shouldn't really judge it till we won't see all the changes.
improve the game with big nerf where top player will a bit feel this nerf in HM trials while average players will feel very big hurt to just vet trials, without hm...so it should look like?
There was an information somewhere that most of vMols was done ignoring mechanic of last boss, just nuking, this will make it impossible so not only average players will be nerfed.
And most of problems on trials is not bashing, not ressurecting, not stacking (or stacking too much when we shouldn't stack) and not observing the boss carefully. Not the dps, hps etc. Excepting vMol there is not much situations when too low dps can wipe a team. Just wispmother in vAA I think... Bash and block are main problems of right side of vHRC which is estimated as harder than left side.
on vMoL maybe...but what about vAA hard mode? with to low dps you wont go to 50% boss because of so fast respawning storm atronach and mini-mages with it, without huge dps you wont do it, same on vHRC hm, without enough huge dps also single gargoyle is huge problem and what when boss will go into enrage phase and all firecasters and warrios will wakeup? 2 healers wont heal this insnae damage.
and about vMoL hard mode...at all now still so small amount of player have done this so boss burnt without all mechancicks or no....at all you need huge dps to kill boss with comming adds with time and dps loss will wipe group because adds will be not killed enough fast and with it is comming more harder work to healer to keep everyone alive keeping all buffs on group and support
I don't think it'll be impossible to finish HM, if it will be - we can only cry on forums. But Zenimax don't want to make game impossible, just harder. And for me it's okay to make hard modes actually really hard.
And remember that we're trying to nuke every boss so long that we almost forgot about tactics. Maybe we will need to think more instead of doing wave and anim cancel? Okay, probably we will need to do it still, but more tactics would be fine.
Zeni will make ESO unplayable only when they would want to destroy it and release TESVI or ESO 2. And everything in CP can be changed if it'll be ineffective. So no need to panic.
yeah we want harder content...but as other player writing.....still same old content, nothing new so why we should get nerf and doing it much longer etc if we have done it and just for fun, "sport", why I should struggle with same old conent without nothhing new? more sense will be to add mechanics like we have in cradle and mazzatun dung, until you do this mechanic you cant damage to boss but now seriousily when not very much people are able to dont just vet trial then what about very very less amount of people able to dont hm vet trial now? with nerf like this ZOS is doing impossible to do very old content for non-top players just because they dont want to skip mechanics?
sorry but in v HRC and AA unskippalbe mechanics with just nonsotp comming adds are hm, nerf will force to do mechanics only in hm vMoL while AA and HRC will be impossible to done for more players because of lower dps.
and as I wrote....if they want people to not skip mechanics then they should or just new content which is comming with morrowind or just rework current trials mechanics to be like mazzatun and cradle dung instead of nerf everyone, people will be force to do those mechanics instead of skipping and will b eno nerfs to everyone
Yea, waves of mobs 'mechanic' is exhausting and I hope it'll be less things like that and I have a feeling that Zeni found out about it (DLC dungeons you mentioned have awesome mechanic comparing to old stuff) and they learned something. I love mechanic of Twins in vMol and I wish that more of challenges like that will be implemented (they said that the new trial will have less waves of mobs, ooh, I really want to believe it..).
But unfortunately it's really hard to balance pure hard mechanics and dps tests... There is a player with 20k dps and 50k dps and it should be hard for both of them. It's not easy to find a happy medium. I see this cp change like trying to find it so I just can't be against it.Edited by Eshja on March 20, 2017 1:51PM@Eshja (PC EU) Master crafter | Roleplayer | Trial scrub | Love healing ♥
My characters: Nimpys Elenmir| Narielle Telvanni | Moans-Loudly | Vivienne The Zookeeper | Zamiatająca-Ogonem | Kha'mathre | Irgret Soul-Breaker0 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Nelson_Rebel wrote: »Yes.
A lot of things in the CP tree need gutting or changing in order to bring some level of challenge and balance back to the game.
We're currently in an age where you don't need any regen or cost reduction on gear because it's all handled by the CP system, this means you just stack max stat and damage sets.
They're not making this change as a middle finger to everyone, they're doing it because right now it's not healthy for the game. Everyone wants balance and keeps asking for more challenge or more chance for builds other than "stack damage" and now they're working on it.
Doctordarkspawn wrote: »
» show previous quotes
1. Most people I've seen in this thread have reacted negatively to the change. If you'd like to do a experiment, I urge you. Go into game, during primetime hours, and ask people what they think of the change in several different zones and start tallying reactions.
1A. GIVE THEM THE FULL STORY, OR IT DOES NOT COUNT. I dont trust you not to lie to pad the results.
Of course you wont, because your more concerned with crushing dissent and discussion you think dosent need to be happening, but it's a thought. Put your money where your mouth is.
2. No. The Devs have no obligation to respond to any of it. However, this 'lack of obligation' does not mean they should not. The devs have the ability to take things into their own hands, try to communicate the changes, and possibly put this issue to bed before it even hits PTS.
But they dont. They've likely allready decided the change, which is why it really does not matter if they noticed or not. It's going through.
3. The people I see going on about how this change is great are either sarcastic, or allready well off. This is a class war. The people lawding for the change are the same people yelling incessantly for this game to be harder when they need to go play darksouls again. These people who will never be satisfied, who's happiness come at the cost of ours. Forgive me if I dont think very highly of these greedy people.
I dont have faith it'll be fine. I have faith it'll either be the death of, or a step in the direction of the death of, this game. Spurred on by people who allready raid at the endgame level, or people like Alcast who cant understand the myriad of differences between what this game was a year ago, and what it is now. The ill informed and gullable, and the greedy and manipulative.
***Posting this as this is exactly how I feel about it*** @Doctordarkspawn
End of the game because of those 2 passives? Lol... TBH i miss one option in the poll, I dont care. After hundrets of changes made to all classes, nerfing to ground and then overbuffing etc. etc. I have learned how to adapt Ill change some things here and there and Ill do fine as used to, Im more concerned about disturbance in the Force caused by Warden class I'm done with this game because of ZOS pushing us into Vengeance, because they don't know how to fix Cyrodiil.0 -
DeadlyRecluse✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Yes Remove themPoll is aggressively oversimplified, but...
CP need a rework to address creep, PvE/PvP balancing issues, etc. I don't think they are just removing these stars, I assume it comes with an examination of ability costs/base regens and whatnot.
JUST remove the stars? That's kind of nonsense.
Remove them in conjunction with an actual solution for vertical power creep? Sure.Thrice Empress, Forever Scrub3 -
Nelson_Rebel✭✭✭✭✭
✭No Magician and Warlord should stayDeadlyRecluse wrote: »Poll is aggressively oversimplified, but...
CP need a rework to address creep, PvE/PvP balancing issues, etc. I don't think they are just removing these stars, I assume it comes with an examination of ability costs/base regens and whatnot.
JUST remove the stars? That's kind of nonsense.
Remove them in conjunction with an actual solution for vertical power creep? Sure.
It's stated exactly how PAX has represented the change, word it however you want they ARE removing them, however you want to glitter the statement. And thus far there have been no words to indicate that they are adding changes to the base game costs or mechanics in dungeons to compensate for the nerfs.
Therefore, the simply stated poll is the exact representation of what is changing.
Edited by Nelson_Rebel on March 20, 2017 2:12PM1 -
andreasranasen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭No Magician and Warlord should stayThe game is digging it's own grave.#VMATOKENSYSTEM #WEAPONDYE #TRAITCHANGE #CROWNCRATELOVER- Alliance/Platform: Aldemerii - PS4/NA - CP 800+
- Mag Sorc: Arya Rosendahl - Altmer - Highelf
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Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Yes Remove themFor all PvE players that cry they'll not handle trials - we dont know all changes that come in morrowind and You guys just looking at this change like it would be the only change. I assume Morrowind will bring more changes then just this one yet most of the people cry about game future like warlord/magician change would be the only change to base game patch.
That's the major mistake that people makes and I also maded in the past - looking at 1 future change from current meta perspective without full knowledge about all future changes improvements and fixes.
Maybe new trial will give sets with major slayer buff , maybe hp of bosses will be lowered, or we'll get some new support things that will increase dmg , maybe there will be few new nice sets that will allow to keep DPS high or old sets will get interresting change (like BSW in OT). Perosnally from PvE perspective I am very happy that finally good old times return and DD will need something else in his build than just brainless stacking up offensive statistics.
For PvP this change is very good and needed because this is one of major problems that allows some builds to have good dmg while also managing resources extremly easy on CP campaigns. This game needed more skill in the past then now and I hope with this changes that requirements will return .
But that's just my thoughts and I am waiting for Morrowind PTS to create an opinion about the subject. I advice many people that gets crazy after hearing about CP's changes to calm down and wait to create opinions after seeing/hearing more details in the future then just 1 raw fact atm.Edited by Juhasow on March 20, 2017 2:22PM0 -
Jacozilla✭✭✭✭✭No Magician and Warlord should stayYes.
A lot of things in the CP tree need gutting or changing in order to bring some level of challenge and balance back to the game.
We're currently in an age where you don't need any regen or cost reduction on gear because it's all handled by the CP system, this means you just stack max stat and damage sets.
They're not making this change as a middle finger to everyone, they're doing it because right now it's not healthy for the game. Everyone wants balance and keeps asking for more challenge or more chance for builds other than "stack damage" and now they're working on it.
When you use extremes like "everyone", it's rather simple to prove you 100% wrong by simply providing one voice in dissent - since you said everyone in your hyperbole to portray this as something desired.
Count me as a no - I do not want warlord/magician removed from CP or reduced in boost.
Since you have one No, your statement is now wrong. When you inevitably change it to 'the vast majority want this new challenge', then please provide proof how you know or speak for the majority - whether it is simple +1 majority, or 99% - when by common fact the largest proportion of users are not even on this or any forum at all? e.g. the masses of people that just play casually, never register, read, much less write on forums?
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NobleNerd✭✭✭✭No Magician and Warlord should stayYes.
A lot of things in the CP tree need gutting or changing in order to bring some level of challenge and balance back to the game.
We're currently in an age where you don't need any regen or cost reduction on gear because it's all handled by the CP system, this means you just stack max stat and damage sets.
They're not making this change as a middle finger to everyone, they're doing it because right now it's not healthy for the game. Everyone wants balance and keeps asking for more challenge or more chance for builds other than "stack damage" and now they're working on it.
Can't you just choose not to point into those options if you want a different flavor? It seems to me they offer more than these points in each Champion constellation. I am all for adjusting how much % or stat each option gives, but I don't think removing a feature is the best option.0 -
Riga_Mortis✭✭✭✭✭No Magician and Warlord should stayZeniMax still dont know what direction to take eso progession wise, and thats something they should've had down and stuck to within the first year and a half of this games release.
This time next year it wouldn't surprise me if vet ranks returned, thats how much faith I personally have in ZOS at the moment.
XBOX 1X
GT - TAGNUTZ0 -
AhPook_Is_Here✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes Remove themThere are already some good cliches in this thread but can we get some "Toxic", "Cancerous" and "Triggered' memes going so this thread can entertain me?“Whatever.”
-Unknown American3 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No Magician and Warlord should stay@nelsonus_ESO
Sorry to inform you that the poll design available in these forums doesn't provide information on what the silent majority or even the player base feels. Has nothing to do with what you created.
The polls in the forums are entertainment value only.0 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭No Magician and Warlord should stayWhere's the option to reduce the CP by 8-10% but keep it around?2 -
TheBonesXXX✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yes Remove themI do not care if they get removed, but I'm for it if they do.
To be truthful, they should have never inflated the stats to be multiplicative to begin with and should have been adjusting the algorithms around Character to Character to begin with and adjusting the bosses from there.
It was laziness not to do so, the CP system should have never been so game changing, rather a compliment to the system already in place, instead it became the system with gear and character being the complement to CP.
I am not in favor of removing the CP system any longer because the time it would take to fix it. I am in favor of moving things around in the Thief tree that makes the "The Tower the Tower" and putting Haste/Weighted back into the game. Only a few will be able to use those things positively because it benefits and compliments the active player controlled mechanics of the game.1 -
Cinbri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Yes Remove themCP promote small-scaling. Reduce cost CP promote troll builds.
No reduce cost CP = CP will still promote small-scale but without promoting troll builds.0 -
Kodrac✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Meh. I don't use them much now, but I use 7/7 light or 7/7 medium on my toons. None of them are built for PvP with heavy armor and damage dealing. I'll adjust to whatever is there after the patch depending on what they do to the other CPs. Put me in the 'meh' category.2 -
Rickter✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No Magician and Warlord should stayIm saying they should leave things as is, but honestly? even if it did change, everyone would adapt. the same knee jerk reaction happened when they announced stamina would not regen while blocking. and again when they said they were moving the block cost reduction out of the red tree.
but we all survived and we all still love the game.RickterESO
PC | NA | DC
YouTube
______________________
Guilds: PvP:Bloodletter | StamDK | Alliance Rank 46 | Former Emperor of Shor (2018) | Former Emperor of Thornblade #4terms (2015)PvE:vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vMA | vDSA | vMoL | ALL Vet 4 Man Dungeons4 -
Nelson_Rebel✭✭✭✭✭
✭No Magician and Warlord should stayGiles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »@nelsonus_ESO
Sorry to inform you that the poll design available in these forums doesn't provide information on what the silent majority or even the player base feels. Has nothing to do with what you created.
The polls in the forums are entertainment value only.
There are alot of players that come in here and have accounts on all kinds of platforms from all different countries. Not all of them comment, so that the poll was implemented to gauge what a general consensus is throughout all the different playerbases. No it is not exact, but it is most definitely relevant as this is the exact same format used in real life polls to give reference information for statistics all the way from popular voting booths to drug and alcohol polls.
Each vote is a person, they cast their vote and from the votes I gather what the majority of people who come on here have to say I.E. how they feel about it determines their vote
That is how polls work buddyEdited by Nelson_Rebel on March 20, 2017 2:55PM0 -
seaef✭✭✭✭✭Yes Remove themThey should probably go. Once they're gone, the whining will disappate after a few months whereas if they stay, the whining could go on for years."The Illuminati are very achievement focused. It's like Xbox - only everything is hardcore."
- Kirsten Geary1 -
Aquanova✭✭✭✭✭No Magician and Warlord should stayI see no reason for their removal. This is a senseless change that doesn't do anything except nerf pve. Pvp players should already be accustomed to playing against players that have points invested in these tree's.
There is already a no cp campaign if you have trouble with this. Play on it if you do!
To ZOS, you do more to make players leave your game than anything else. Think on that!NA/PC0 -
Mgghool✭✭✭No Magician and Warlord should stayRemoving magician/warlock and substituting it with yet another sensless way to spend your CP is just pretty lazy. I want more awesome sings I can invest my points into so I feel sorry, that I am missing some great benefits in other aspects. So devs - do your work better, I am paying you to be entertained, and this change I do not find amusing.0 -
VodkaVixen1979✭✭✭No Magician and Warlord should stayThis is all the fault of heavy armor PVP cancer builds. I did some dungeons with those points removed (husband moved them to get treasure hunter without telling me lol) and was wondering why sustain was so sucky. I moved the points back and now all is right with the world again!0 -
usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Im saying they should leave things as is, but honestly? even if it did change, everyone would adapt. the same knee jerk reaction happened when they announced stamina would not regen while blocking. and again when they said they were moving the block cost reduction out of the red tree.
but we all survived and we all still love the game.
No stamina return gutted the already weak Heavy Armor in PVP and S&B blocking until HA was buffed to the sky.0331
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CyrusArya✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭No Magician and Warlord should stayShould stay, but be capped at like 5%-10% rather than 16%. OR, it should be removed and a blanket cost reduction be applied to all skills...because costs were raised multiple times to compensate for CPs.
I like the idea of severely gutting cp cost reduction and regen though because it forces people to make more well rounded builds.0