WRONG FEEDBACK SOURCE Streamers don't represent most players

Thesiren · March 2017

Bungie does this as well: They listen to their few noisy Trials Streamers and ignore the rest of the player base. Unfortunately for Bungie, this has resulted in a huge round of nerfs this past month that impacted much of the game negatively, after which there has been a mass exodus from their game. Not only that, but now a lot of Destiny players don't care about the launch of Destiny 2, either; not too smart.

Hopefully Zenimax doesn't make the same mistake here.

xboxone1Q · March 2017

Never watched a ZOS stream or watched no life streamers on here. Why I DONT CARE about them, they are not good at eso they just play to much with meta builds I bet they have.

StackonClown · March 2017

Another quote from earlier : "@ZOS_RichLambert runs with some really elite PVE guilds"

Again this is some kind of joke right?

If true, and I can't know if it is or not, this reinforces that the elitism is coming in parts from the devs themselves and is a conflict of interest in some way.

Elitist Devs would favour and side with elitist players because 'they are my friends', and who cares about the lowly commoner 'L2P' rest of the community.

Since DEVs think like elitists, then they cater to them, meet up with them and raise their eyebrows at the rest of the community as 'bad's' who are there to pay subs so the elites can impress each other..

And "who cares about bots at dolmens - us elites don't visit such pathetic locations"... so leave the bots there and just put up with it while we are busy doing VMOL hard mode.

Turelus · March 2017

ZOS has very little professionalism in regards to their friendships and interactions with players.

This isn't a normal MMO or a normal MMO company. So accept that, enjoy the game and relax.

Or start making long, constructive, well thought out posts about the areas of gameplay you care about and how ZOS can improve.

StackonClown · March 2017

Turelus wrote: »

ZOS has very little professionalism in regards to their friendships and interactions with players.

This isn't a normal MMO or a normal MMO company. So accept that, enjoy the game and relax.

Or start making long, constructive, well thought out posts about the areas of gameplay you care about and how ZOS can improve.

I already have 'started' long ago.

Here's a *short*, constructive, well thought out post about an area of gameplay I care about and how ZOS can improve :

[constructive post]
Get rid of the bots! - instead of Devs running dungeons they should examine how much botting is going on.... Get rid of the structures around the dolmens where the bots 'camp'.. develop better bot train detection.
[/constructive post]

Feel free to contribute yourself.

Turelus · March 2017

StackonClown wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

ZOS has very little professionalism in regards to their friendships and interactions with players.

This isn't a normal MMO or a normal MMO company. So accept that, enjoy the game and relax.

Or start making long, constructive, well thought out posts about the areas of gameplay you care about and how ZOS can improve.

I already have 'started' long ago.

Here's a *short*, constructive, well thought out post about an area of gameplay I care about and how ZOS can improve :

[constructive post]
Get rid of the bots! - instead of Devs running dungeons they should examine how much botting is going on.... Get rid of the structures around the dolmens where the bots 'camp'.. develop better bot train detection.
[/constructive post]

Feel free to contribute yourself.

Okay, whatever you do for your job, when you get home tonight don't log into ESO and instead do more of that job.

The devs are not sat in the office during work hours running vMoL with their player chums, if they're doing content with players (who may not be fully aware who they are still) then it will be in their off work hours.

Also developers are not gamemasters, it falls on the secuirty/gm team to sort out botting within the game, sadly ZOS seems to outsource this like other big MMO companies which means they have no one in their office actually looking into the issues.

Rickter · March 2017

StackonClown wrote: »

Another quote from earlier : "@ZOS_RichLambert runs with some really elite PVE guilds"

Again this is some kind of joke right?

This is not a joke. i know the name of the community but im not going to post it here.

idk · March 2017

Thesiren wrote: »

Bungie does this as well: They listen to their few noisy Trials Streamers and ignore the rest of the player base. Unfortunately for Bungie, this has resulted in a huge round of nerfs this past month that impacted much of the game negatively, after which there has been a mass exodus from their game. Not only that, but now a lot of Destiny players don't care about the launch of Destiny 2, either; not too smart.

Hopefully Zenimax doesn't make the same mistake here.

Fortunately for us Zos does not ignore the various groups of the player base.

StackonClown · March 2017

Turelus wrote: »

Okay, whatever you do for your job, when you get home tonight don't log into ESO and instead do more of that job.

The devs are not sat in the office during work hours running vMoL with their player chums, if they're doing content with players (who may not be fully aware who they are still) then it will be in their off work hours.

Also developers are not gamemasters, it falls on the secuirty/gm team to sort out botting within the game, sadly ZOS seems to outsource this like other big MMO companies which means they have no one in their office actually looking into the issues.

What i do for a job is not your concern, dont give orders as if you are some self appointed authority in these forums.
How do you know what the devs do in office or off work hours? gimme a break

I can't see why you are acting like some ZOS spokesperson...

Riga_Mortis · March 2017

Some of the streamers that attended have sinced moved onto For Honor as their main game, mustve been an awesome feedback session indeed.

Turelus · March 2017

StackonClown wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Okay, whatever you do for your job, when you get home tonight don't log into ESO and instead do more of that job.

The devs are not sat in the office during work hours running vMoL with their player chums, if they're doing content with players (who may not be fully aware who they are still) then it will be in their off work hours.

Also developers are not gamemasters, it falls on the secuirty/gm team to sort out botting within the game, sadly ZOS seems to outsource this like other big MMO companies which means they have no one in their office actually looking into the issues.

What i do for a job is not your concern, dont give orders as if you are some self appointed authority in these forums.
How do you know what the devs do in office or off work hours? gimme a break

I can't see why you are acting like some ZOS spokesperson...

I'm not concerned what you do for a job nor did I ask. I was only making a comparison of what you're asking which would relate to yourself.

I am not aware of what the developers do in hours at ZOS, however I very much doubt Zenimax Media is going to be paying developers and staff to log in and play their personal accounts all day rather than working on the game.
Rich, Brian and others who have spoken about their personal accounts have normally stated that they're playing them in the evening.

As for acting like a spokesperson for ZOS I don't see myself doing that either. I was pointing out that in most MMO development it's not the developers who deal with botting but a security/GM team.
If you want me to act like a ZOS spokesperson I could point out that Jessica has already said they're looking at the issues of bots camping Dolmens as you requested, she posted this in thread about the issue.

As I said in a previous post ZOS breaks a lot of the rules which we have come to take as a standard in the industry, one of which is playing along side other players who may (not confirmed to my knowledge) know the names of developer accounts.
Even with this I very much doubt these players are given any special treatment which would undermine the fairness of the game.

Zvorgin · March 2017

xboxone1Q wrote: »

Never watched a ZOS stream or watched no life streamers on here. Why I DONT CARE about them, they are not good at eso they just play to much with meta builds I bet they have.

Some streamers or YouTube content creators actually put out really informative content that otherwise isn't available for ESO. I appreciate being able to maximize my time playing because they figure out and pass on knowledge. You don't have to be so derogatory, there is some good content out there that isn't simply "I play more so I'm better"

Turelus · March 2017

Riga_Mortis wrote: »

Some of the streamers that attended have sinced moved onto For Honor as their main game, mustve been an awesome feedback session indeed.

Even if they are not fully active within the game right now they were still players who displayed an open understanding to the games systems and issues. If they're not only streaming ESO then that just goes to show ZOS were looking for understanding than fame for the game.

I am with others on not understanding the outrage of this, they took a wide selection of players from various aspects of the game and took feedback from them all.
People are so focused on their rage at three or four big names they're completely ignoring the others who were/are relatively unknown or have decided not to open themselves up to the community.

TequilaFire · March 2017

Wonder when the non disclosure is up, would be interested in hearing some real feedback from those that went to ZOS not all this speculation from forum users.

Rouven · March 2017

TequilaFire wrote: »

Wonder when the non disclosure is up, would be interested in hearing some real feedback from those that went to ZOS not all this speculation from forum users.

That would be nice.

ADarklore · March 2017

Perhaps the reason some of these Streamers are taking a break from the game is because Morrowind will not be released for several more months and as of right now the ONLY thing new added to the game was Homestead, which I doubt is something many Streamers have any interested in streaming. Also, with the non-disclosure, they cannot even comment about it until ZOS gives the OK... I'm betting when Morrowind goes to PTS, you'll see a LOT more Streamers returning.

Turelus · March 2017

ADarklore wrote: »

Perhaps the reason some of these Streamers are taking a break from the game is because Morrowind will not be released for several more months and as of right now the ONLY thing new added to the game was Homestead, which I doubt is something many Streamers have any interested in streaming. Also, with the non-disclosure, they cannot even comment about it until ZOS gives the OK... I'm betting when Morrowind goes to PTS, you'll see a LOT more Streamers returning.

You mean watching Fengrush farm nodes for six hours isn't interesting viewing? Damn.

Asmael · March 2017

Turelus wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Perhaps the reason some of these Streamers are taking a break from the game is because Morrowind will not be released for several more months and as of right now the ONLY thing new added to the game was Homestead, which I doubt is something many Streamers have any interested in streaming. Also, with the non-disclosure, they cannot even comment about it until ZOS gives the OK... I'm betting when Morrowind goes to PTS, you'll see a LOT more Streamers returning.

You mean watching Fengrush farm nodes for six hours isn't interesting viewing? Damn.

Depends on the rant that comes with it

Turelus · March 2017

Asmael wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Perhaps the reason some of these Streamers are taking a break from the game is because Morrowind will not be released for several more months and as of right now the ONLY thing new added to the game was Homestead, which I doubt is something many Streamers have any interested in streaming. Also, with the non-disclosure, they cannot even comment about it until ZOS gives the OK... I'm betting when Morrowind goes to PTS, you'll see a LOT more Streamers returning.

You mean watching Fengrush farm nodes for six hours isn't interesting viewing? Damn.

Depends on the rant that comes with it

I'll be honest, I've never actually watched his streams/rants. I rarely watch streamers because I personally hate the way most live streams go.

I tried watching Sypher's first stream after he got back from this and after the first 10-15mins of just being people subbing/resubbing and him saying thanks over and over I remembered why I get bored.

I am sure there are streamers out there who I would enjoy though, and I'm sure the bigger ones are great people I just hate watching streams where it's constant pandering to chat and subs. I want someone playing the game, talking some interesting talk about it.

*darkcloaks away before people attack him*

ManwithBeard9 · March 2017

Riga_Mortis wrote: »

Some of the streamers that attended have sinced moved onto For Honor as their main game, mustve been an awesome feedback session indeed.

Partnered streamers have to follow the hype train. If they want money, they have to stay relevant. I don't see For Honor as having a large enough base for certain streamers to dip ESO add their bread and butter for making money. Especially when you can charge a couple hundred dollars to help people "git gud"

willlienellson · March 2017

Turelus wrote: »

ZOS has very little professionalism in regards to their friendships and interactions with players.

This isn't a normal MMO or a normal MMO company. So accept that, enjoy the game and relax.

Or start making long, constructive, well thought out posts about the areas of gameplay you care about and how ZOS can improve.

The fact that those posts produce so little change or even response is a large part of the frustration that inspired this thread originally.

If they had a more responsive relationship with their average players....if they actually listened to the feedback of those average players, then the little Baltimore Sleepover wouldn't be as much of a problem because it would represent a fraction of our constructive communication with Zos instead of the bulk of it. But when they roundly ignore mountains of feedback and broad consensus, then events like that which took place really present a problem.

Consider this thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/313666/11-obvious-flaws-and-11-easy-fixes-housing/p1

52 Insightful, 113 Agree, 45 Awesome.....and almost no arguments within the thread. It represented broad consensus on the PTS and was posted over 30 days before the end of the PTS.

It never even got a token Zos reply.

So it is in the context of constructive threads with broad consensus like that being completely ignored that having these special events with a small minority of elite gamer celebrities is especially irritating.

Turelus · March 2017

willlienellson wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

ZOS has very little professionalism in regards to their friendships and interactions with players.

This isn't a normal MMO or a normal MMO company. So accept that, enjoy the game and relax.

Or start making long, constructive, well thought out posts about the areas of gameplay you care about and how ZOS can improve.

The fact that those posts produce so little change or even response is a large part of the frustration that inspired this thread originally.

If they had a more responsive relationship with their average players....if they actually listened to the feedback of those average players, then the little Baltimore Sleepover wouldn't be as much of a problem because it would represent a fraction of our constructive communication with Zos instead of the bulk of it. But when they roundly ignore mountains of feedback and broad consensus, then events like that which took place really present a problem.

Consider this thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/313666/11-obvious-flaws-and-11-easy-fixes-housing/p1

52 Insightful, 113 Agree, 45 Awesome.....and almost no arguments within the thread. It represented broad consensus on the PTS and was posted over 30 days before the end of the PTS.

It never even got a token Zos reply.

So it is in the context of constructive threads with broad consensus like that being completely ignored that having these special events with a small minority of elite gamer celebrities is especially irritating.

Do we know they were only elite gamer celebs? We only know a few of the people invited.

Also checking your thread and maybe they have taken note of it, but they might not need to fly you out to their studios for simple fixes you've put forward which they may or may not want to do.
Also just because a bunch of forums players agree with you doesn't mean that's the direction ZOS wants to go with something.

They were looking for a very specific testing pool for a set number of in development features before an open roundtable at the end. They've said they took names from across all areas of the game and from many different countries. Some of whom didn't want to be named.

idk · March 2017

willlienellson wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

ZOS has very little professionalism in regards to their friendships and interactions with players.

This isn't a normal MMO or a normal MMO company. So accept that, enjoy the game and relax.

Or start making long, constructive, well thought out posts about the areas of gameplay you care about and how ZOS can improve.

The fact that those posts produce so little change or even response is a large part of the frustration that inspired this thread originally.

If they had a more responsive relationship with their average players....if they actually listened to the feedback of those average players, then the little Baltimore Sleepover wouldn't be as much of a problem because it would represent a fraction of our constructive communication with Zos instead of the bulk of it. But when they roundly ignore mountains of feedback and broad consensus, then events like that which took place really present a problem.

Consider this thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/313666/11-obvious-flaws-and-11-easy-fixes-housing/p1

52 Insightful, 113 Agree, 45 Awesome.....and almost no arguments within the thread. It represented broad consensus on the PTS and was posted over 30 days before the end of the PTS.

It never even got a token Zos reply.

So it is in the context of constructive threads with broad consensus like that being completely ignored that having these special events with a small minority of elite gamer celebrities is especially irritating.

@Turelus

No. Zos used theorycrafters and some happened to be streamers. Theorycrafters understand the workings of the game better than most. Certainly better than myself and that's what is needed in early developement.

As for comments others have made concerning who Zos listens to:

Zos has groups of all types of players that they keep communication with. PvE to PvP from more hard core in both groups to very casual.

At that, not all suggestions are fit well with the game. Others are just really bad like having played made content (comes up from time to time).

In the end, it seems OP is more upset Zos didn't accept his ideas. That's is clear since it's his thread from PTS he's linked and seems to suggest that since Zos did not immediately accept his ideas that Zos doesn't listen to anyone other than streamers. Not the case though.

Just because Zos didn't immediately accept any of your ideas doesn't mean they will never. It just wasn't needed for launch of the update. A could of the ideas he posted in that PTS thread are worthy of consideration though not all of them.

ZOS_JohanaB · March 2017

As the conversation of this thread in not constructive we will be closing it. Baiting and trolling are against the community rules and as this thread has both it's seem to have run its course. In the future please allow your post o be civil and constructive while following the community rules.

ZOS_RichLambert · March 2017

Just real quick before this thread gets closed... (sorry Johana)

Forum feedback is a huge part of our process. While we don't comment on every thread, or act on every suggestion, we do read as many of them as we can and compile the feedback to look for trends / issues. When deciding on fixes / features we have to evaluate each change, assess risk and weigh it against a number of factors such as overall health of the game, balance, other fixes, other features in development...etc. There isn't a magic button to fix issues and most of the time things aren't as simple as they may seem.

Couple other notes from the last few pages of the thread:

willlienellson wrote: »

They could be people that have good scores from inside the game that were asked in-game. They could be people that submitted very helpful feedback inside the game and were invited (wouldn't that be awesome). They could be people from these forums. They could be people from the reddit forums. They could be people selected at random.

I don't know. But I want to know.

Gina touched on this awhile back when we announced the event - we tried to select a very diverse group. We could only bring in 12, so we had to choose carefully. We had a good mix of streamer/non-streamers, some console folks, some PVE-only people and some PVP-only people. We wanted to try and get as many playstyles as possible. The people we chose tended to be the long-time players who had a very strong grasp of combat mechanics and have been able to put that theorycrafting into practice. They were identified either via in-game prowess (top guilds, top PVPers, top build crafters) or via their contributions to the theorycrafting community. (Mechanics posts on the forums, reddit, or other theorycrafting forums.)

We are leaving it up to the individuals to identify themselves. Not everyone is comfortable in the public eye and that is just fine by us. Also, please remember that these folks weren’t the only source of feedback we’ll be considering for Battlegrounds, the Warden class, and upcoming balance changes. They were just the beginning.

Rickter wrote: »

These same individuals are the most vocal on forums, many of them are streamers and many of them occupy the Council of PvPers who have a direct line to ZOS.

Council of PVPers? I know there is a group that wants to start something like that, but it isn't a thing right now and they haven't met with anyone at ZOS to present any feedback.

Rickter wrote: »

But because these celebrity streamers and longtime pvp elite keep brainwashing and flooding the forums with their OPINION of how eso pvp should be and the devs are listening and you see it over and over where changes are made to discourage large groups!!

The changes we've made (increasing damage caps specifically) were made because we didn't like the way groups were fighting. If you have 24 people in a group, all stacking on crown - 18 of those people automatically took 50% less damage from AOE attacks. Groups were using that to their advantage and we wanted superior tactics and group coordination to be more important than a game safety mechanic. We didn't make the change because a "celebrity" asked us to. (And the same can be said for any change we make.) We took feedback, played in Cyrodiil, looked at the numbers, and evaluated what we should and shouldn't do.

Rickter wrote: »

The issue is that the small scale proponents are insisting that theirs is the best way, and unfortunately they do have the ear of the developers. have you heard of hte Council of PVPers? thats actually a thing. its real.

As noted above, it’s not actually a thing. At least not yet. I'd love to have a group like that, but would want to make sure it’s a good cross section of various playstyles. Not just solo- or small-scale, but large-scale groups as well.

Rickter wrote: »

Devs play every day. they are in normal communities (well they go for the ones they heard of) and they are influenced by the players they surround themselves with. @ZOS_RichLambert runs with some really elite PVE guilds, and I fear their influence is negative for him. why? because the 1% does not represent the 99%.

This couldn't be farther from the truth. I actually don't run with really elite PVE guilds - I'm in a couple for feedback purposes (on NA and EU), but it's mostly to read about balance/bug types of things. I don't normally go on runs with them (even though they ask.). I turn down a number of invites to guilds and Discord/TS/Mumble...etc because I want to try and keep a fairly low profile. I love talking with people and hearing their concerns - but no one voice or group of voices is more powerful than another.

When I play PVE content, I actually spend most of my time solo either farming materials/gear, questing or in VMA. When I PVP, I much prefer the larger-group type fights and tend to "zerg surf" when my friends aren't on. When I do group up for both PVE and PVP, it’s either via the LFG tool or I run with a small group of friends who are more generally more casual-type folks.

willlienellson wrote: »

If they had a more responsive relationship with their average players....if they actually listened to the feedback of those average players, then the little Baltimore Sleepover wouldn't be as much of a problem because it would represent a fraction of our constructive communication with Zos instead of the bulk of it. But when they roundly ignore mountains of feedback and broad consensus, then events like that which took place really present a problem.

There's an underlying nugget in here that I do agree with, and that is better communication. We've started taking steps to improve that with our patch notes - specifically the developer notes. It's a small step but we've seen a really big impact on the player community, so we will keep doing it. We will continue trying to improve on this front.

willlienellson wrote: »

Consider this thread: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/313666/11-obvious-flaws-and-11-easy-fixes-housing/p1

52 Insightful, 113 Agree, 45 Awesome.....and almost no arguments within the thread. It represented broad consensus on the PTS and was posted over 30 days before the end of the PTS.

This is actually a really great example of what I stated in my opening comments. We can't comment on every thread and just because a thread is popular, doesn't mean we are going to act on it. This thread has some good ideas, yes, but most of them are very far from "easy" or “quick.”

-rich