Support for crown crates?
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Mrs_Malaka✭✭✭✭Buying up crown crates by the dozens cuz I cannnnn xD
What's great about them is that I can get crown gems from the stuff I don't want (or from duplicate items)
I just get my mount with these!
I think that is one of the best parts about being an adult - if I see something and I wants it, I GETS IT! lol
I like Pacrooti. We have some really great times together. The free moonsugar is always a nice touch, too
Save Pacrooti!
BUY CROWN CRATES! SUPPORT A KHAJIIT LIFE!
"But screw your courage to the sticking-place,
And we’ll not fail."
PC/NA & EU4 -
MishMash✭✭✭✭I don't play ESO to gamble my money. I go to Atlantic City for that. So, no I will not bother with crown crates.PC NA DC 4eva! I try my very best. If it is not good enough for you too bad! Playing off and on since April 2014 CP2009.3 -
lord_dal✭✭✭I do like the crates, and spend my sub crowns on them, but would never buy crowns to get the crates.0 -
SydneyGrey✭✭✭✭✭
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Wow, how incredibly condescending and insulting. What the heck is wrong with you?Daran_Cousland wrote: »what troubles me is that some players may be spending money they can't afford because they have some mental disorder that prevents them from making practical choices about money. they aren't spending money like that because they're rich they're doing it because they are compulsive.
"Waaah ... they're buying something I don't approve of, so they must have a mental disorder!"
Edited by SydneyGrey on March 6, 2017 2:41PM3 -
Ajaxduo✭✭✭✭✭Oh look another one of those threads. *buys crown crates* Edited by Ajaxduo on March 6, 2017 12:45PM- - -
GM of Verum Aeternus, PC EU
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Martan✭✭✭As soon as the sale comes I'm gonna buy me some crates.
And possibly a Mansion.Addons that should already be in-game
BugCatcher, Binder, Chat Completion, Craft Bag Extended, Joviex's Addon Settings Transfer,
NoAccidentalStealing, SetMeUp, Shissu's Game/AvA Booster, Votan's Adaptive (Video-)Settings
Recommended Addons
Action Duration Reminder, Inventory Grid View, JoGroup2 -
Ep1kMalware✭✭✭✭✭
✭There's that phrase people mention alot.. about a fool and his money. But I get labeled an elitest when I say most players are fools. ;(1 -
Ep1kMalware✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don't agree with them but people can do with their own money whatever they want. Its not down to anyone else to judge.
It is the people who do not buy them in the minority.
You got it backwards. If you blow through 45-60 crates amd come here to *** about it, of course we get to judge. That's one f the main benefits of being slightly wiser: getting to secretly laugh at the gullible. If you don't like it well then don't tell us how much you wasted xD4 -
Nyx2✭✭✭✭Mrs_Malaka wrote: »Buying up crown crates by the dozens cuz I cannnnn xD
I think that is one of the best parts about being an adult - if I see something and I wants it, I GETS IT! lol
I like Pacrooti. We have some really great times together. The free moonsugar is always a nice touch, too
Save Pacrooti!
BUY CROWN CRATES! SUPPORT A KHAJIIT LIFE!
Adult, huh? I don't even question the support of crates with troll posts like these. Also you don't get the thing you see, you get some random garbage you didn't ask for. Direct purchases are what you're talking about, not RNG boxes.5 -
Blacksmoke✭✭✭✭✭Yay for crown crates!Champion point: 645CharactersGanlian Stormian - AD - Dungeon healer - Templar - CrafterOndaril Stormian - AD - Trail DPS - SorcererShagrod gro-Bolmog - AD - PVP - Dragonknight2 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Also you don't get the thing you see, you get some random garbage you didn't ask for. Direct purchases are what you're talking about, not RNG boxes.
This is the biggest flaw of Crown Crates, and what makes them the financial success that they are, and a big reason to oppose them. I just want to be able to pop into the Crown Store and buy a mount, or pet, or costume, without all the flair, drama, and randomness that comes with Crown Crates.
They have to put the majority of the "good stuff" into the Crates, or people won't buy them. That leaves a lot less stuff in the Store for direct purchase. In turn, that means I need fewer Crowns. Thanks to ESO Plus and some stocking up last summer, I have tens of thousands of Crowns, and nothing I want to spend them on. If I resubscribe in April, I will have 9000 more Crowns to add to my pile. Yay.
I won't buy Crown Crates. There is no reason for me to buy houses, or furniture, until ZOS finishes Homestead. I have no need for Crown Consumables. I have all the mounts, pets, costumes, personalities, hair, tattoos, and stuff that I want.
I want to spend them, and have worked to get my pile down, but it is hard. Each month, I hope there will be something in there to buy that isn't way over priced. I have a lot of Crowns, but I'm not just going to throw them away on this month's Elk.
XBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
PSN NA/EU: @ElsonsoJannus
Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus3 -
ZiRM✭✭✭✭✭
✭Want to become Vampire? 5k @ZiRM in game.ESO Server Status. ( ^_^)o自自o(^_^ ) SkåL!!!!!0 -
SickDuck✭✭✭✭✭katiesmith12341 wrote: »Bigevilpeter wrote: »mrfrontman wrote: »I agree 100% with OP. I did it myself once to test the odds and you would have better luck winning at a casino that's rigged. Don't support this.
I 100% disagree with OP. I did it myself once to test the odds and got the exact mount I wanted and some other awesome cosmetics.
Do support this.
Thats the main reason I do not support this, it is pure gambling and ZOS abusing the human psychology, there are underage kids who are take advantage of and actually are not legally allowed to gamble
There are no cash rewards in the crown crates. It may be a fine line, but buying crown crates is not considered gambling in the official sense. There's nothing but digital fluff in there, so no regulatory body would condemn or regulate it.
True, but still feeding an addiction
Gaming (excessive) can be an addiction too. And mmos are basically endless. Should they start regulating your daily ESO dose to avoid feeding an addiction?Holdviola - Khira'de Regalo - Lélekvadász - Used To Be An Adventurer - Zetor - Does-Not-Give-A-Duck - Lord Sugar - Tenar Arha - Da'rinka - Violent Moon - Extreme Runner1 -
JKorr✭✭✭✭✭
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Like you believing the money is actually going to improve/support the game? That kind of naivety?
Any signs of better customer support? In-game gamemasters zapping and banning bots camping dolmens? Bug fixes? New content that hasn't been in development from before the "monetize everything as much as possible" person was hired? ETAs on any of this because people are buying the clown crates?
Many datamined clown crate items however. Not themed, special items coming, locked behind the clown crates instead of out for direct purchase.
The clown crates/rngesus boxes/scam crates are perfectly fine for anyone who will be happy with any assorted junk they might get, or anyone willing to buy enough crates to get enough gems to buy the specific item they want. [there is a concept there, buying exactly what you want....hmmm]
The clown crates suck for anyone who wants a specific apex item from them. They also suck for anyone who wants a specific old item that appeared on the crown store and got stuck behind the clown crates instead of being offered again for outright purchase. The only "good" thing is that the lower than apex rewards don't cost 400 gems to buy outright.3 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Any signs of better customer support? In-game gamemasters zapping and banning bots camping dolmens? Bug fixes? New content that hasn't been in development from before the "monetize everything as much as possible" person was hired? ETAs on any of this because people are buying the clown crates?
Actually, what I am seeing is more cost savings and consolidation. The perception I have is that customer support is worse now than it was 6 months ago. I am thankful I don't need to contact them to find out, first hand, how bad it is. They moved ZOS Twitch to Bethesda, which consolidates streaming in one place. Bethesda Support is now tweeting about ZOS server status. I am expecting other consolidations.
I am wondering if they will close the ZOS customer support and move that all the Bethesda. Bethesda can consolidate all customer support for all of their games. (Edit: maybe they already have, and that is why Customer Support sounds worse)
I am wondering how long they will continue to have two forums, Bethesda's and this one. Why not move the ZOS forums to Bethesda and have all the forums in one place? Remember that we were all told to go register there so we could reserve our preferred names on the Bethesda.Net forums?
So, yeah, all happy that Bethesda and ZOS are making money. Would like to see some of that show up in the game.Edited by Elsonso on March 6, 2017 3:48PMXBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
PSN NA/EU: @ElsonsoJannus
Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus1 -
Sigtric✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bigevilpeter wrote: »Seeing all this money wasted just makes me sad. The mounts do look epic, but putting them behind an rng wall that costs so much money with a very low chance is one of the biggest scams ever.
I didn't buy crown crates yet, but I saw some videos on youtube of openings and I see how many people were disappointing and just threw so much money away.
Even if you have too much money to spend, there are other more useful ways to spend it other than supporting this massive scam.
Even if there was 100% chance to get a mount every 15 boxes it would still be the equivalent of 40$ for a mount which is the price of many brand new games.
Supporting things like that only encourages them to scam you more.
[Edited title for baiting]
While I agree with your feelings about the crates specifically, I disagree with the 'useful spending' comment. It's all up to the person with the money to decide what's useful and has value for their own dollar.
Stormproof: Vibeke - 50 EP mDragonknight | Savi Dreloth - 50 EP Magsorc | Sadi Dreloth - 50 EP Magblade | Sigtric Stormaxe - 50 EP Stamsorc | Valora Dreloth - 50 EP Magplar | Sigtric the Unbearable 50 EP Stam Warden
Scrub: Chews-on-Beavers - 50 EP DK Tank | Vera the Wild - 50 EP magicka Warden | Sigtric the Axe - 50 EP Dragonknight Crafter | Sigtric the Blade - 50 EP Lost Nightblade | Sigtric the Savage - 50 EP magicka Templar | Vibeka Shadowblade - 50 Ep Stealthy Ganky Nightblade |
Show Me Your Dunmer
[/center]0 -
Gedalya✭✭✭✭✭Serious changes are needed for Crown Crates. To be clear, I love the idea at a high level; SWToR does this idea and it works out well with how it is implemented in that game. Changes that could be made include, increasing chance of getting a desirable item; lower costs for Crown Crates; giving a free Crown Crate each month for subscribers; allowing items received in Crown Crates to be sell-able to other players; and I'm sure other people can think of many many more ideas for improvement. For me though I just think the cost benefit is way to low; you are not guaranteed enough of value. Some common item drops are use-less for many of us; such as Crown poison or Crown food stuffs.0 -
Bigevilpeter✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭katiesmith12341 wrote: »Bigevilpeter wrote: »mrfrontman wrote: »I agree 100% with OP. I did it myself once to test the odds and you would have better luck winning at a casino that's rigged. Don't support this.
I 100% disagree with OP. I did it myself once to test the odds and got the exact mount I wanted and some other awesome cosmetics.
Do support this.
Thats the main reason I do not support this, it is pure gambling and ZOS abusing the human psychology, there are underage kids who are take advantage of and actually are not legally allowed to gamble
There are no cash rewards in the crown crates. It may be a fine line, but buying crown crates is not considered gambling in the official sense. There's nothing but digital fluff in there, so no regulatory body would condemn or regulate it.
True, but still feeding an addiction
Gaming (excessive) can be an addiction too. And mmos are basically endless. Should they start regulating your daily ESO dose to avoid feeding an addiction?
They are doing that already with all the crashes and maintenances
0 -
BlackSparrow✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Like you believing the money is actually going to improve/support the game? That kind of naivety?
Any signs of better customer support? In-game gamemasters zapping and banning bots camping dolmens? Bug fixes? New content that hasn't been in development from before the "monetize everything as much as possible" person was hired? ETAs on any of this because people are buying the clown crates?
Personally, I don't believe the money is being spent improving the game. I suspect it's being spent maintaining it. As in, I suspect they need that money to support the status quo.
The thing about this game is that it gets bigger and bigger with every update. More data to store. More server power to run. More bells and whistles that need staff to attend to them. More DLC and expansions that require not only production time, but also time to maintain and fix an increasing number of things that can bug out. The more parts a machine has, the more ways there are it can break down, no matter how well-built. (Which, admittedly, TES games are known for being buggy in the first place XD )
And all the while, subs are the same price they were two years ago, and the price for a box of the game is down.
And honestly, yeah, it does seem that customer support is not their priority right now. But that doesn't mean that the money isn't going to support the game behind the scenes. Even if it is marketing to pull in more players, or to get new computers for the design team, or even getting John Doe a raise because he's been working there for a year and they want to make sure he has incentive to stay on the team. Those are still supporting the game, albeit indirectly.
The thing you don't seem to understand is that just because the Crown Crates are a new form of money, that doesn't mean it's necessarily more money than what they had before. Other forms of income have likely been dropping and costs are certainly rising, and they needed a new strategy just to make the same amount of money they always have been. If a hole springs in your boat and you use a cork to plug the hole, do you suddenly have more boat? No, it's the same amount of boat you had before. It maintains status quo, not improves it.
The fact that they're making money off Crown Crates does not mean they're making extra money. That's why I don't expect the game to necessarily improve, just because they found a new income stream. Nor am I saying I like where the model is going... I really hope Crown Crates never, ever overtake flat Crown Store purchases either. But I am willing to concede that, if they felt the need to implement something like Crown Crates, they had reason to do so.
There are exceptions, but in general, game developers do not get into this field for money. Game development is an incredibly demanding job, full of stress, long hours, tight deadlines, and player bases that will pounce on the slightest fault... even worse for MMOs because the job's stress cycle doesn't end until the game does. There are far easier, more lucrative fields. Instead, people usually get into this field because they like games. Because they want to create something fun and awesome that other people will enjoy. It's not always true, but usually? Devs are gamers, just like you.
But go ahead and continue thinking that the devs are using Crown Crate money solely to line their personal pocketbooks. I'd rather be naive and give a bunch of hard-working people the benefit of the doubt than assume the entire company is corrupt.
Though I'll admit the idea of a giant pool full of Crown Crate cash at ZOS headquarters does make me chuckle.
Edited by BlackSparrow on March 6, 2017 7:45PMLiving vicariously through my characters.
My Girls:"If you were trapped in your house for, say, a year, how would you pass the time?"
Nephikah the Houseless, dunmer assassin: "I suppose I could use the break. I have a lot of business holdings now that need management."
Swum-Many-Waters, elderly argonian healer: "I think that I would enjoy writing a memoir."
Silh'ki, khajiit warrior-chef: "Would this one be able to go outside, to the nearby river? It's hard to fish without water!"
Peregrine Huntress, bosmer hunter: "Who is forcing me to stay inside, and where can I find them?"
Lorenyawe, altmer mechanist: "And why would I want to go outside in the first place? Too much to be done in the workshop."
Lorelai Magpie, breton master thief: "I'd go nuts. Lucky for me, I have a little experience sneaking out!"
Rasheda the Burning Heart, redguard knight: "I would continue my training to keep my skills sharp."
Hex-Eye Azabi, khajiit daedric priestess: "I suppose it would be lucky, then, that I built a shrine to Mephala in my backyard."
Yngva Stormhammer, nord bandit (reformed...ish): "I hate being inside even when I'm not forced to be. GET. ME. OUT."
Madam Argentia, vampire dunmer aristocrat: "I suppose it would be more of the same. I have a rather... contentious relationship with the sun."
Mazie gra-Bolga, orc scout: "Uh... I'd have to house train my bear..."
Felicia the Wanderer, imperial witch-for-hire: "What Lorelai said."
Calico Jaka-dra, retired khajiit pirate: "This one would like a rest from her grand adventures. Her jewel shop runs out of stock!"
Shimmerbeam, blind altmer psijic: "Provided that I am confined to Artaeum, I do not think I will want for things to occupy my time."
Shauna Blackfire, redguard necromancer: "Sounds like paradise. I hate people."
Kirniel the Undying, cursed bosmer warrior: "I would feel useless, not being able to fight."
Echoes-from-Dragons, argonian who thinks she's a dragon: "All the better to count my hoard!"
(Signature idea shamelessly stolen from Abeille.)1 -
Molydeus✭✭✭✭✭
✭katiesmith12341 wrote: »katiesmith12341 wrote: »Bigevilpeter wrote: »mrfrontman wrote: »I agree 100% with OP. I did it myself once to test the odds and you would have better luck winning at a casino that's rigged. Don't support this.
I 100% disagree with OP. I did it myself once to test the odds and got the exact mount I wanted and some other awesome cosmetics.
Do support this.
Thats the main reason I do not support this, it is pure gambling and ZOS abusing the human psychology, there are underage kids who are take advantage of and actually are not legally allowed to gamble
There are no cash rewards in the crown crates. It may be a fine line, but buying crown crates is not considered gambling in the official sense. There's nothing but digital fluff in there, so no regulatory body would condemn or regulate it.
True, but still feeding an addiction
I don't get why people automatically assume you're an addict if you partake in 'gambling'. I'm sure you know someone who buys a lottery ticket every once in a while, but you wouldn't call that feeding an addiction... Maybe being stupid but not addiction unless it's a compulsive thing they really can't control.
but but I am addict...its a very addicting game..I get dragged out of arcades, at least they can't drag me out of eso. fun times.
Wait, there are still arcades out there?0 -
Nyx2✭✭✭✭Bigevilpeter wrote: »Seeing all this money wasted just makes me sad. The mounts do look epic, but putting them behind an rng wall that costs so much money with a very low chance is one of the biggest scams ever.
I didn't buy crown crates yet, but I saw some videos on youtube of openings and I see how many people were disappointing and just threw so much money away.
Even if you have too much money to spend, there are other more useful ways to spend it other than supporting this massive scam.
Even if there was 100% chance to get a mount every 15 boxes it would still be the equivalent of 40$ for a mount which is the price of many brand new games.
Supporting things like that only encourages them to scam you more.
[Edited title for baiting]
While I agree with your feelings about the crates specifically, I disagree with the 'useful spending' comment. It's all up to the person with the money to decide what's useful and has value for their own dollar.
It's not about what a person considers worthwhile but about the pricing they reinforce, the method of the purchase and how this is a railway into disaster when looking at games doing similar things as crown crates. Everyone has to put up with these and now that they're somewhat successful it will continue on and on and eventually people will get tired of watching things they desire disappear behind RNG paywalls.
inb4 "ZoS can do whatever they want / you don't have to buy it if you don't like it!!1" completely missing everything I said.3 -
Saturn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bigevilpeter wrote: »mrfrontman wrote: »I agree 100% with OP. I did it myself once to test the odds and you would have better luck winning at a casino that's rigged. Don't support this.
I 100% disagree with OP. I did it myself once to test the odds and got the exact mount I wanted and some other awesome cosmetics.
Do support this.
Thats the main reason I do not support this, it is pure gambling and ZOS abusing the human psychology, there are underage kids who are take advantage of and actually are not legally allowed to gamble
There are no cash rewards in the crown crates. It may be a fine line, but buying crown crates is not considered gambling in the official sense. There's nothing but digital fluff in there, so no regulatory body would condemn or regulate it.
As long as what you can win has the appearance of a monetary value it's considered gambling, even if that monetary value is pure make-belief. If you look up the definition of gambling it doesn't state that there explicitly has to be a cash reward possible, but has more to do with the act itself, i.e. betting on an outcome in a game of chance. The Crown Crates have shown to be just as addictive to some people as "real" gambling, as the stories of "I spent hundreds of dollars on crown crates" are not singular instances, but unfortunately rather common.
ZOS encourages bad behaviour and feed into addiction with this garbage, and they should know better than to ever have included this in their game.0 -
SickDuck✭✭✭✭✭One solution is to buy the crates but don't open them. You pay for crates, you get lovely crates. Simple as that.
Just like curiousity killed the cat, opening them and fiddling with rng kills the fun.Holdviola - Khira'de Regalo - Lélekvadász - Used To Be An Adventurer - Zetor - Does-Not-Give-A-Duck - Lord Sugar - Tenar Arha - Da'rinka - Violent Moon - Extreme Runner1 -
Magdalina✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Tbh I don't really understand the issue with crown crates. I haven't bought any, only things I buy in the Crown Store are actual dlcs. I generally wish they'd spend less resources on new crown store mounts and costumes and more on actual game issues(I'd pay in crowns for Streak fix at this point, I kid you not) but while they don't...I don't really see how crown crates are that much more of an issue than the rest of it, all they are is a lottery. If you want to play a lottery, that's fine, you just gotta realize your chances of winning are way smaller than your chances of losing so don't complain if you don't win(especially with ZOS' infamous rng). You knew what you were setting yourselves up for.
I wish people cared for Crown Store fluff less on the whole so ZOS would actually have to work on more meaningful things in order to attract customers and money, but eh. I have no interest in buying anything there, everyone else has a right to decide what to do with their money(even if I do find spending 100$ on a pixel mount more than a bit silly).Edited by Magdalina on March 6, 2017 7:05PM0 -
DragonBound✭✭✭✭✭Bigevilpeter wrote: »Seeing all this money wasted just makes me sad. The mounts do look epic, but putting them behind an rng wall that costs so much money with a very low chance is one of the biggest scams ever.
I didn't buy crown crates yet, but I saw some videos on youtube of openings and I see how many people were disappointing and just threw so much money away.
Even if you have too much money to spend, there are other more useful ways to spend it other than supporting this massive scam.
Even if there was 100% chance to get a mount every 15 boxes it would still be the equivalent of 40$ for a mount which is the price of many brand new games.
Supporting things like that only encourages them to scam you more.
[Edited title for baiting]
For me it is a grey area, we all need our sanity so I can see why we would spend on these things, personally I like the majority of stuff so I do not mind spending money on a 5000 pack, and using gems to get my mount which I did do, at the same time you hear of people spending tons and I mean tons of money on it while you have kids who cannot even get a decent meal. I am just being realistic but that's just how that aspect makes me feel.
As far as eso making money, honestly its a fair system mostly, but the special mounts need to be more obtainable then this 1 percent chance I keep hearing about, maybe they are wrong but that is what they are saying.Edited by DragonBound on March 6, 2017 7:12PM0 -
AlMcFly✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bigevilpeter wrote: »Thats the main reason I do not support this, it is pure gambling and ZOS abusing the human psychology, there are underage kids who are take advantage of and actually are not legally allowed to gamble
I suppose ZOS should now be responsible for kids who have garbage parents?1 -
Bigevilpeter✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Bigevilpeter wrote: »Thats the main reason I do not support this, it is pure gambling and ZOS abusing the human psychology, there are underage kids who are take advantage of and actually are not legally allowed to gamble
I suppose ZOS should now be responsible for kids who have garbage parents?
Well Casinos do put age restrictions on gambling enforced by the government so that even if the parents are bad the government would protect them, ZOS is the government of ESOEdited by Bigevilpeter on March 6, 2017 9:11PM0 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bigevilpeter wrote: »Bigevilpeter wrote: »Thats the main reason I do not support this, it is pure gambling and ZOS abusing the human psychology, there are underage kids who are take advantage of and actually are not legally allowed to gamble
I suppose ZOS should now be responsible for kids who have garbage parents?
Well Casinos do put age restrictions on gambling enforced by the government so that even if the parents are bad the government would protect them, ZOS is the government of ESO
I suspect an amount of disagreement with that last statement.XBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
PSN NA/EU: @ElsonsoJannus
Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus0 -
AlMcFly✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bigevilpeter wrote: »Bigevilpeter wrote: »Thats the main reason I do not support this, it is pure gambling and ZOS abusing the human psychology, there are underage kids who are take advantage of and actually are not legally allowed to gamble
I suppose ZOS should now be responsible for kids who have garbage parents?
Well Casinos do put age restrictions on gambling enforced by the government so that even if the parents are bad the government would protect them, ZOS is the government of ESO
That's a physical casino, who employ actual manpower to enforce said rules. Do you have any idea how much success the government has had in trying to police age restrictions in online gambling? Not a lot of success, I can tell you that.
Do you suppose ZOS should implement retinal scan and fingerprint biometric analysis for every credit card purchase made to ensure the identity of the purchaser? You're mind exists in a fairy tale. If parents pass their credit cards freely to children and allow them to buy whatever they want without oversight, ZOS in no way should be responsible for that. Unless you're now arguing that ZOS knows best in all situations who and for what should be purchasable? Give me a break.
Classic-case argument for more intense Welfare State ideals.Edited by AlMcFly on March 6, 2017 9:20PM1