Support for crown crates?

JimT722 · March 2017

Dantaria wrote: »

JimT722 wrote: »

First the financial aspect. At the beginning of last year Matt Firor released an article saying that ESO has been a major success. http://massivelyop.com/2016/04/04/matt-firor-says-elder-scrolls-onlines-population-is-huge-and-thriving/
This game I'm sure was doing well and this move was motivated by greed.

That's exactly it - you're drawing assumptions. Yes, the game now has much more people, the population is huge. Yet we do not know the ratio profit-from-all-these-sales/all-resources-that-were-used-so-people-would-come. Without the numbers - which we, of course, will never get and companies are entitled to such secrets, 'cause privacy matters - we can only assume. Throwing accusations based on assumptions never won anyone any points.

JimT722 wrote: »

Secondly, your response to rng is flawed. Running game content repeatedly, is not the same as running your credit card repeatedly. It's a system designed to tempt people to spend ridiculous amounts of money for something most would pay considerably less on average if they put in the store. They are ripping off their players and people are actually praising them.

How, pray tell, is that different? XD

vMA is a system which tempts people to spend ridiculous amount of time for something that would take considerably less time if sharpened vMA weapons could be bought for <X>k gold from "MA-vendor" XD

The only difference is resource in question.

And what all of us want? Right. The token system. Which exists in Crates.

Noone lies and noone forces. It is clearly said: you have a chance. If someone buys 1 crate and gets lucky - yay. If someone buys X crates to get enough gems - yay. If someone buys 10 Crates with mindset "APEX MOUNT OR RIOT" - well, mindset is the problem.

And yes. We are conveniently not counting everything else that comes from Crates. Gambling in which you always wins... interesting

The real loss in all this is experienced by people with bad luck who needed bazillion Crates to get those 400 gems. It's a sad situation and I symphatize. But then again - the rules were clear from the start.

Choices and consequences. Not evil corporations

No it's not evil corporations, just corporations. The this system is created by people who understand human nature and they exploit just that. If people are willing to run their credit card instead of content, then that's what we will get. People who liked using the crown store to obtain what they want are hurt by this. It used to be every item used to be available directly for purchase. Now the best items are hidden behind rng.

I have never seen a game made better by rng box implementation. It's incredibly easy money for them, and will likely become the focus of their efforts.

Elsonso · March 2017

Dantaria wrote: »

If you are against Crates, 'cause gambling, but you ran vMA hundreds times to get the weapon you wanted - congratulations, you are a hypocrite. And you have lost much more than people who bought Crates. Money can be made again. Time can't.

Uh. Bad analogy. The two things are not equivalent, so there can be no hypocrisy. But, I also don't think that gambling addiction is an issue with Crown Crates, either.

The main danger with Crown Crates, cosmetic or not, is this:

JimT722 wrote: »

It's incredibly easy money for them, and will likely become the focus of their efforts.

By the way, I don't want a token system, not in Crates and not in the rest of the game. Fix the problem, don't just slap a band-aid on it.

Turelus · March 2017

MickeyBN wrote: »

Everything that gets rewarded from a Crown Crate is purely cosmetic, so unless this game is just a fashion show to you there is no pay to win, you are not losing out on anything by not purchasing a crate and you'll have no advantage if you do.

However if you wish you contribute to a now free to play MMO by making a few micro transactions in the hope of acquiring some exclusive cosmetic mounts/costumes etc, no one will judge you.

Apart from everyone here on the forums.

esotoon · March 2017

max_only wrote: »

While I understand that it would be nice to know the exact odds of the rewards, there is something people happily misinterpret. This is not gambling for a couple of reasons. In gambling you put on something valuable for a hope of something better/more valuable - with a chance to lose. The crates can be BOUGHT for 400 crowns (or less if buying in bulk) and always contain CS items worth at least 400 crowns. Yes the content is random, but you get a value for your purchase.

I fully understand this. It is a game of chance, not gambling. But I also fully understand this is *precisely* why game publishers use this model, because it stops them falling under the gambling regulations that most countries have in place for good reason. Just as one of the main reasons companies use token systems for purchasing in game items and loot boxes (Crowns in ESO's case), rather than real money, is because it circumvents tax, gambling and consumer protections laws in most countries too. (As well as the psychological effect it has on the consumer, disassociating them from the actual amount of money they are spending on an item.)

The notion that they return their value is simply there as a ruse to get around the fact that they play on the same human nature that gambling does. After all, despite the Crown Crates supposedly returning their 'value', in all the threads on this topic over the past few months, I have yet to see anyone say "I buy Crown Crates in order to stock up on Crown Poisons and Potions". They are not bought for their supposed value, they are bought for that 'chance' item.

So whilst these practices are perfectly legal, and as such ZOS are well within their rights to use them, they are also practices that IMHO are scuzzy and anti-consumer.

ZiRM · March 2017

I guess ZOS doesn't care if people use their forums to tell others not to buy their products. *shrugs*

Bigevilpeter · March 2017

ZiRM wrote: »

I guess ZOS doesn't care if people use their forums to tell others not to buy their products. *shrugs*

Apparently ZOS respects people's opinions even if it disagrees with their policies and maybe you should learn that too

FleetwoodSmack · March 2017

6 pages and still not an LOL button.

Saturn · March 2017

It's such a huge success for them that they'll probably just turn all DLCs into crown crate seasons and say, "*** the people who want actual content".

But yes, the fact that ESO now has legal gambling is *** *** and I cannot express how disappointed I am. I thought I had seen the worst when Update 6 and the Crown Store came out, but that was just the beginning... I love ESO, but ZOS is making it really hard to trust them, since they are also excluding their "chapters" from the subscriber rewards and making them non-purchasable with crowns.

It has become very apparent where their priorities lie: $$$ > content

If you don't support the idea of Crown Crates then put your money where your mouth is and stop paying them, I've encountered so many hypocrits who say they hate it and yet still buy them.

mrfrontman · March 2017

I agree 100% with OP. I did it myself once to test the odds and you would have better luck winning at a casino that's rigged. Don't support this.

Voxicity · March 2017

mrfrontman wrote: »

I agree 100% with OP. I did it myself once to test the odds and you would have better luck winning at a casino that's rigged. Don't support this.

I 100% disagree with OP. I did it myself once to test the odds and got the exact mount I wanted and some other awesome cosmetics.
Do support this.

MickeyBN · March 2017

I'm just struggling to understand the OP's point. I've personally never purchased a Crown Crate but I dgaf if others spend their dollars on them, doesn't affect me or the game one way or another.

Don't like it don't buy it.

NEXT THREAD!!!!

AnviOfVai · March 2017

Unfortuantly being a an addict to gambling can I stop when I see something I want? No..

I spent 65 quid last week on those crown crates, I got 3 forest mounts out of it though. Worth it? No. Can I stop? No.

Bigevilpeter · March 2017

KaiVox22 wrote: »

mrfrontman wrote: »

I agree 100% with OP. I did it myself once to test the odds and you would have better luck winning at a casino that's rigged. Don't support this.

I 100% disagree with OP. I did it myself once to test the odds and got the exact mount I wanted and some other awesome cosmetics.
Do support this.

Thats the main reason I do not support this, it is pure gambling and ZOS abusing the human psychology, there are underage kids who are take advantage of and actually are not legally allowed to gamble

SickDuck · March 2017

katiesmith12341 wrote: »

Unfortuantly being a an addict to gambling can I stop when I see something I want? No..

I spent 65 quid last week on those crown crates, I got 3 forest mounts out of it though. Worth it? No. Can I stop? No.

Hope you're not addicted to food cause I don't want people demanding to ban cakes.

AnviOfVai · March 2017

SickDuck wrote: »

katiesmith12341 wrote: »

Unfortuantly being a an addict to gambling can I stop when I see something I want? No..

I spent 65 quid last week on those crown crates, I got 3 forest mounts out of it though. Worth it? No. Can I stop? No.

Hope you're not addicted to food cause I don't want people demanding to ban cakes.

I'm at work with desk full of chocolate. Cake is the last thing of my worries

Drazkyth · March 2017

@OP, Agreed.

Molydeus · March 2017

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

KaiVox22 wrote: »

mrfrontman wrote: »

I agree 100% with OP. I did it myself once to test the odds and you would have better luck winning at a casino that's rigged. Don't support this.

I 100% disagree with OP. I did it myself once to test the odds and got the exact mount I wanted and some other awesome cosmetics.
Do support this.

Thats the main reason I do not support this, it is pure gambling and ZOS abusing the human psychology, there are underage kids who are take advantage of and actually are not legally allowed to gamble

There are no cash rewards in the crown crates. It may be a fine line, but buying crown crates is not considered gambling in the official sense. There's nothing but digital fluff in there, so no regulatory body would condemn or regulate it.

Moorcrofts · March 2017

RMT only exists in a game because there are players willing to support it. I don't see how anyone could realistically expect to convince players to not make legitimate purchases from the company cash shop when we can't even get people to stop giving their money to RMT vermin.

AnviOfVai · March 2017

Molydeus wrote: »

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

KaiVox22 wrote: »

mrfrontman wrote: »

I agree 100% with OP. I did it myself once to test the odds and you would have better luck winning at a casino that's rigged. Don't support this.

I 100% disagree with OP. I did it myself once to test the odds and got the exact mount I wanted and some other awesome cosmetics.
Do support this.

Thats the main reason I do not support this, it is pure gambling and ZOS abusing the human psychology, there are underage kids who are take advantage of and actually are not legally allowed to gamble

There are no cash rewards in the crown crates. It may be a fine line, but buying crown crates is not considered gambling in the official sense. There's nothing but digital fluff in there, so no regulatory body would condemn or regulate it.

True, but still feeding an addiction

Damianos · March 2017

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

Seeing all this money wasted just makes me sad. The mounts do look epic, but putting them behind an rng wall that costs so much money with a very low chance is one of the biggest scams ever.

I didn't buy crown crates yet, but I saw some videos on youtube of openings and I see how many people were disappointing and just threw so much money away.
Even if you have too much money to spend, there are other more useful ways to spend it other than supporting this massive scam.

Even if there was 100% chance to get a mount every 15 boxes it would still be the equivalent of 40$ for a mount which is the price of many brand new games.

Supporting things like that only encourages them to scam you more.

Then maybe I will consider your advice. I earned it, I will spend it how I see fit.

Arato · March 2017

Saturn wrote: »

It's such a huge success for them that they'll probably just turn all DLCs into crown crate seasons and say, "*** the people who want actual content".

But yes, the fact that ESO now has legal gambling is *** *** and I cannot express how disappointed I am. I thought I had seen the worst when Update 6 and the Crown Store came out, but that was just the beginning... I love ESO, but ZOS is making it really hard to trust them, since they are also excluding their "chapters" from the subscriber rewards and making them non-purchasable with crowns.

It has become very apparent where their priorities lie: $$$ > content

If you don't support the idea of Crown Crates then put your money where your mouth is and stop paying them, I've encountered so many hypocrits who say they hate it and yet still buy them.

That wouldn't work for them because without actual content updates people stop logging in, no logging in = no crown crate sales. I mean you did see that we're getting an expansion right?

willlienellson · March 2017

Aeladiir wrote: »

I just bought 5 more Crown Crates because of your post. Got some epic stuff, so it's K. Thanks for making me buy crates and earn some goodies!

I really think you shouldn't jump off that bridge over there. Don't do it. Really. Don't.

*sit's back to watch*

Voxicity · March 2017

katiesmith12341 wrote: »

Molydeus wrote: »

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

KaiVox22 wrote: »

mrfrontman wrote: »

I agree 100% with OP. I did it myself once to test the odds and you would have better luck winning at a casino that's rigged. Don't support this.

I 100% disagree with OP. I did it myself once to test the odds and got the exact mount I wanted and some other awesome cosmetics.
Do support this.

Thats the main reason I do not support this, it is pure gambling and ZOS abusing the human psychology, there are underage kids who are take advantage of and actually are not legally allowed to gamble

There are no cash rewards in the crown crates. It may be a fine line, but buying crown crates is not considered gambling in the official sense. There's nothing but digital fluff in there, so no regulatory body would condemn or regulate it.

True, but still feeding an addiction

I don't get why people automatically assume you're an addict if you partake in 'gambling'. I'm sure you know someone who buys a lottery ticket every once in a while, but you wouldn't call that feeding an addiction... Maybe being stupid but not addiction unless it's a compulsive thing they really can't control.

Azurulia · March 2017

Personally I don't care much for these crates, but to each his own. If people want to drop a wade of excess spending money that's their prerogative. I may not entirely agree with it, but nothing I or anyone else could ever do will change it. So long as there is a sizable amount of money to be made, a business will pursue that avenue. No amount of complaints will stop it when money from willing deep pockets talks far louder then words or money of the frugal ever could.

As the saying goes, if you can't beat em, join em.

I tend/will get a crate if I can't think of anything else that I need if I have some points laying around. A roll of the dice every now and then can actually be pretty fun. The trick is going in knowing the money you are about to spend no longer exists and is going to be lost. So when you do win, it's a pleasant surprise.

If you gamble expecting to win, You're going to have a bad time.

Bigevilpeter · March 2017

Molydeus wrote: »

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

KaiVox22 wrote: »

mrfrontman wrote: »

I agree 100% with OP. I did it myself once to test the odds and you would have better luck winning at a casino that's rigged. Don't support this.

I 100% disagree with OP. I did it myself once to test the odds and got the exact mount I wanted and some other awesome cosmetics.
Do support this.

Thats the main reason I do not support this, it is pure gambling and ZOS abusing the human psychology, there are underage kids who are take advantage of and actually are not legally allowed to gamble

There are no cash rewards in the crown crates. It may be a fine line, but buying crown crates is not considered gambling in the official sense. There's nothing but digital fluff in there, so no regulatory body would condemn or regulate it.

I'm not saying it should be treated like that in the legal sense, but in the moral sense

Molydeus · March 2017

KaiVox22 wrote: »

katiesmith12341 wrote: »

Molydeus wrote: »

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

KaiVox22 wrote: »

mrfrontman wrote: »

I agree 100% with OP. I did it myself once to test the odds and you would have better luck winning at a casino that's rigged. Don't support this.

I 100% disagree with OP. I did it myself once to test the odds and got the exact mount I wanted and some other awesome cosmetics.
Do support this.

Thats the main reason I do not support this, it is pure gambling and ZOS abusing the human psychology, there are underage kids who are take advantage of and actually are not legally allowed to gamble

There are no cash rewards in the crown crates. It may be a fine line, but buying crown crates is not considered gambling in the official sense. There's nothing but digital fluff in there, so no regulatory body would condemn or regulate it.

True, but still feeding an addiction

I don't get why people automatically assume you're an addict if you partake in 'gambling'. I'm sure you know someone who buys a lottery ticket every once in a while, but you wouldn't call that feeding an addiction... Maybe being stupid but not addiction unless it's a compulsive thing they really can't control.

Very true.

Gambling is a form of entertainment, like so many other things and activities people spend their money on. Done so in moderation it is harmless. The majority of people partaking in gambling do so within a reasonable limit of their own finances--people betting their life savings are extraordinarily rare. It is only a very small % that have the addictive personality type that makes them susceptible to gambling addiction. However that also holds true for every other potentially addictive activity, including alcohol, smoking, recreational drugs, and gaming so much you forget to eat/bathe/go to work/feed your baby.

esotoon · March 2017

Molydeus wrote: »

However that also holds true for every other potentially addictive activity, including alcohol, smoking, recreational drugs, and gaming so much you forget to eat/bathe/go to work/feed your baby.

Feed your baby, lol ...wait ...my baby? ...gah, daddies on his way sweetie. ...sweetie? BRB!!!

esotoon · March 2017

Molydeus wrote: »

There are no cash rewards in the crown crates. It may be a fine line, but buying crown crates is not considered gambling in the official sense. There's nothing but digital fluff in there, so no regulatory body would condemn or regulate it.

Some regulatory bodies are already beginning to regulate it. A law was recently passed in China requiring the drop rates of such loot boxes to be published by developers, and other countries are looking into these systems. This is what happens when you get companies deliberately circumventing tax and government regulations by using loop holes. Which brings about the question, what happens when countries do regulate it? We already have the developer of (if i recall correctly) Star Trek Online, stating that they will simply remove access to their game from certain countries rather than change this practice. Which some people might not see the problem with, but ask yourself, what if you live in said country, and what will happen when the EU inevitably regulate it, as they are most likely to do?

This is why I see it as bad for the long term health of a game. Not only is it a business model that relies on a smaller number of players paying a larger amount to support the game. Which is fine whilst the game is doing well, but as soon as the game reaches a stagnant period, or goes through some difficult times, it means that it only takes a small percentage of those players to leave to see a disproportionately large drop in income. But it is a model destined to face regulation before long, at which point, without a more sustainable financial model in place, the game is likely to face large financial difficulties.

Slurg · March 2017

max_only wrote: »

People are funny. These players say "why do you put the cool stuff in gambling crates, if you sell it outright I'd pay for it"
So Zos selsl mounts outright. The same players say "why did you make this mount so expensive, it should be cheaper"

These are usually the same people that won't pay 99 cents for an app as if they could have created it themselves. The same people who don't want to pay for logos and art bc they have a nephew they can guilt into making it for them for free. These people don't see the value and never will. A sparkly digital horse doesn't affect your life at all in practical terms and yet... it feels nice. Why? The human brain is weird. They are only "against" crates because they want what's inside. If you don't want what's inside you'd have the attitude of @MLGProPlayer.

What you don't know is: Zos knows you were never going to give them extra money no matter what they did (crates or outright) they aren't here for you. Zos is here for the people who are going to give them money anyway because those people are already happy and satisfied with the product As Is and don't mind paying extra for sprinkles.

I'm here for the ice cream , I paid for the ice cream , I joined the membership for the ice cream club and heck yeah put some sprinkles on that ice cream , I know it costs extra.**

**(this is an example I'm actually lactose intolerant lol)

Oh look, another tired old "you must be cheap and/or poor and/or don't support the game if you don't embrace crown crates" argument.

Sure there are some people who will complain about the price of anything, when that price is known. Do they buy anyway? I suspect more than a few do.

I've given them plenty of my own money to directly purchase things I wanted. Lots of people have. Is it enough for ZOS? I guess not since they're grasping for more, but I'm sure not playing this silly game where they want me to gamble an undetermined amount to get every single item in the crates before I can have the items I want. That's not the game I came here to play. Ymmv, though.

AnviOfVai · March 2017

KaiVox22 wrote: »

katiesmith12341 wrote: »

Molydeus wrote: »

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

KaiVox22 wrote: »

mrfrontman wrote: »

I agree 100% with OP. I did it myself once to test the odds and you would have better luck winning at a casino that's rigged. Don't support this.

I 100% disagree with OP. I did it myself once to test the odds and got the exact mount I wanted and some other awesome cosmetics.
Do support this.

Thats the main reason I do not support this, it is pure gambling and ZOS abusing the human psychology, there are underage kids who are take advantage of and actually are not legally allowed to gamble

There are no cash rewards in the crown crates. It may be a fine line, but buying crown crates is not considered gambling in the official sense. There's nothing but digital fluff in there, so no regulatory body would condemn or regulate it.

True, but still feeding an addiction

I don't get why people automatically assume you're an addict if you partake in 'gambling'. I'm sure you know someone who buys a lottery ticket every once in a while, but you wouldn't call that feeding an addiction... Maybe being stupid but not addiction unless it's a compulsive thing they really can't control.

but but I am addict...its a very addicting game..I get dragged out of arcades, at least they can't drag me out of eso. fun times.