Iskrasfemme wrote: »

Why not? if u support the game, why not the part of this game? And, please, ZOS is a company, need money to pay workers.

Strange this topic.

They have all the money they need to pay their workers already, this is about capitalizing on peoples impulses to gamble and take advantage of that, this is why casino's are so popular and lucrative, it's taking advantage of human nature.

I already had like 180 gems before after buying like 4 crates awhile ago and getting the Storm Atro horse AGAIN. I then bought 15 of the new crates, got a bunch of nice stuff and bought a crap ton more of stuff I wanted with the gems. I can say I was happy with what I got.

I will buy a ***-ton of crates if only they would do another Crown Sale. How long has it been since the last one? I honestly can't remember, but it was the last time I gave them any money for Crowns.

Why not? People spending money on crown crates is good for everyone as it supports the game. I can guarantee you that revenue has skyrocketed since the introduction of crates.

Also, I challenge you to find a single modern multiplayer game that doesn't have RNG crates. They're the go-to revenue model of almost every game today.

For the record, I've not spent a penny on crown crates myself. But that doesn't mean I'm against their presence in the game.

Bigevilpeter wrote: »

Seeing all this money wasted just makes me sad. The mounts do look epic, but putting them behind an rng wall that costs so much money with a very low chance is one of the biggest scams ever.

I didn't buy crown crates yet, but I saw some videos on youtube of openings and I see how many people were disappointing and just threw so much money away.
Even if you have too much money to spend, there are other more useful ways to spend it other than supporting this massive scam.

Even if there was 100% chance to get a mount every 15 boxes it would still be the equivalent of 40$ for a mount which is the price of many brand new games.

Supporting things like that only encourages them to scam you more.

I would agree but the fact is.. it's too successful, other games have shown it and it's just psychologically effective, gambling is a huge industry for a reason.

In order for this to not work in ESO it would have had to have not worked in SWTOR, GW2, TERA, and many other games with similar gambling systems in their cash shops. An entire GENRE (Gacha, and Complete Gacha) of games and toy dispensors in Japan is based on this psychology. It works and rakes in money.

About all you can really do is not buy them yourself, but for every person who doesn't buy them there will be another person who says "you know, I get 1500 crowns a month, and I have nothing to really spend them on, and some of these crate items are neat, so I can buy 4 per month off my subscription that I have for the crafting bag anyway", and a 2nd person who says "There's cool stuff so I'm just gonna buy 5500 crowns and see what I get" (or maybe they're a streamer and for one of their shows they do an unboxing of $100 worth of crates or something, where viewers donated the crowns) and a 3rd person who says "HOLY CRAP I *MUST* GET this mount!" and keeps buying crates till they get it, probably spending $100's of dollars on it (hopefully it's disposable money they can spare..... some people have real problems with gambling even on this level).. or they might even be worse, a hardcore collector that needs the whole set.

So really.. it's a lost battle already.

catsgomeow wrote: »

Iskrasfemme wrote: »

Why not? if u support the game, why not the part of this game? And, please, ZOS is a company, need money to pay workers.

Strange this topic.

They have all the money they need to pay their workers already, this is about capitalizing on peoples impulses to gamble and take advantage of that, this is why casino's are so popular and lucrative, it's taking advantage of human nature.

You realize they have to keep paying their workers, right? Like, constantly?

I did some math this morning. Wikipedia says that ZOS had 250 employees in 2012. Since then, they've probably had some layoffs, and they've probably hired some new talent, so let's stick to that number.

Maryland currently has an average annual salary at $69k a year... but let's assume that the majority of these workers are on the low end of professional salaries. So, $40k? That's tipping a bit under living wage, depending on the size of the household, but seems a nice lowball number.

So, if we assume that every single person at ZOS earns this extremely underestimated number, do you know how much they're paying a year in just personnel?

$10 million.

And remember that is a gross underestimate. I wouldn't be surprised if the number is at least twice that. And that's just payroll... to say nothing of the general costs of running servers, keeping offices, marketing and promotion, tech upgrades...

All for a game that you can now get for about $13 and then never have to pay another cent.

So yes, while the game currently seems to be making a healthy income, that does not necessarily mean they're making money hand over fist. When they were released, the Crown Crates screamed to me of a company that is looking at their bottom line and going "Hm... our box sales are dropping and subs and cash shop aren't keeping up with costs. If we don't invest in some new revenue streams now, we could be in trouble in the future." That's still how it strikes me.

There is a difference between a company trying to find different ways to make money and one making money hand over fist just for its own sake. Just because the game is healthy now doesn't mean they didn't need the shot of income that the Crown Crates pulled in. They could have very well been working in the red for a while, who knows? Unless you work in their accounting department, you just don't know the numbers.

And you know that most of the money that the game earns goes back into the game, right? It's not like the devs are all taking it from the company's account willy-nilly to blow on fancy cars and personal castles. Most of the money the game makes, Crown Crates or otherwise, is doled out according to however ZOS has set up their books, I would hazard a guess that that payroll number I mentioned above (which, again, is a low living wage if the person is supporting any sort of family) is just a fraction of how the money gets doled out. The rest is likely to go back into the game, one way or another, because that's how company finances work.

But this post, like your assumption that this is purely a matter of greed, is speculation at best. Unless someone here is an accountant who has looked at ZOS' books in the last four months, none of us know. That's the point.

JimT722 wrote: »

notimetocare wrote: »

PelinalWhitestrake wrote: »

Welcome to the future of Gaming where everything is locked behind a pay gate.

Welcome to the future of gaming, where players cry about having to buy games at full price and pay subscription fees that force companies to have cash shops

Interesting statement as most against them have purchased the game at launch for full price and happily subscribed. Most even probably made occasional crown store purchases. We are against this greedy tactic becoming popular because it seems there are too many people with more money than sense. Which is fine, but harmful for the industry because developers are happy to exploit that stupidity. If your willing to just throw massive amounts of money at a system that is designed to exploit you with rng, that is where their focus will inevitably change to at the expense of everything else.

That is true, I have spent a lot of money on this game, but I am against the specific tactic of crown crates, which seems like a very cheap way to make money out of gambling addicts and forcing people to gamble in order to get the mounts

AlMcFly wrote: »

SickDuck wrote: »

I may be dumb but still don't get it how this whole thing is a scam or a pay-gate?

You don't get it because players are misleading you.

Scam - a dishonest scheme or fraud. As ZOS is 100% clear about what a crown crate is, they are neither dishonest nor fraudulent.

Paygate - a wall blocking off content, unless you pay for it. Technically these digital items are in fact behind a paywall. However, players are misleading you to believe paywalls are inherently a bad thing, when that is far form the case. Paywalls are neither inherently good or bad. They are neutral, and solely depend on the value they are "walling" off. The content in these crown crates is PURELY 100% optional and do not add/detract substantial value to the game. Thus, there is nothing wrong with this paygate as the content behind the gate is non-essential.

I just love when people using phrases like pay-gate... Since the game is not free the whole content is technically behind a pay-gate. Anyone playing the game already accepted that.

esotoon wrote: »

AlMcFly wrote: »

As ZOS is 100% clear about what a crown crate is, they are neither dishonest nor fraudulent.

100% Clear? Can you point me to where they state what the odds of getting the various rewards are please, so that I, as the customer, can make an informed buying decision?

While I understand that it would be nice to know the exact odds of the rewards, there is something people happily misinterpret. This is not gambling for a couple of reasons. In gambling you put on something valuable for a hope of something better/more valuable - with a chance to lose. The crates can be BOUGHT for 400 crowns (or less if buying in bulk) and always contain CS items worth at least 400 crowns. Yes the content is random, but you get a value for your purchase. On the top of that duplicate and unwanted items can be turned back to currency which can be used to purchase the exact item you wanted from the crates, bypassing RNG. Show me a casino where you get a guaranteed jackpot even after 10000 failed attempts.

Anyone can calculate the amount of crates needed to get the gems for the apex rewards. You can make a decision based on the worst case scenario which may cost you dearly, but it's a precisely measurable amount of crowns and money.

I usually do not post on forums, but I would really like to do so this time. Because honestly? I find this topic a bit ridiculous and have a feeling that people have major issues with definitions.

SickDuck wrote: »

Yes the content is random, but you get a value for your purchase. On the top of that duplicate and unwanted items can be turned back to currency which can be used to purchase the exact item you wanted from the crates, bypassing RNG. Show me a casino where you get a guaranteed jackpot even after 10000 failed attempts.

Yes, thank you!

Crates are not a gamble exactly because they have what some other aspects of the game thoroughly lack: token system (gems).

Allow me to throw an analogy.

vMA is a gamble. Undaunted chests are a gamble. And when you enter these gambles, you pay with the valute much more valuable than any money: time.

However if I started a topic "Please, don't run vMA, don't support this horrid policy, don't throw your precious time in gambling", I would get a perfectly adequate response... "Hey. Gtfo. My time - my business".

But suddenly the Crates - much more forgiving system - get a hell. People who ran vMA for weapons and got them are praised - people who either got lucky or bought enough Crates to get enough gems for apex mount may be ridiculed or scorned upon.

If you are against Crates, 'cause gambling, but you ran vMA hundreds times to get the weapon you wanted - congratulations, you are a hypocrite. And you have lost much more than people who bought Crates. Money can be made again. Time can't.

And yes, I know, that people hate vMA system and want it to be changed... into something with token system, something similar to Crates, ehehe. So what? If it would be changed, will we still call it a gamble? Will we ask people to not participate? No.

Because it's ridiculous.

P. S. Also:

BlackSparrow wrote: »

So, if we assume that every single person at ZOS earns this extremely underestimated number, do you know how much they're paying a year in just personnel?

$10 million.

Thank you for this post!

I do wonder... All those people who say "ZoS makes enough without Crates, trust me"... Do they have proof? Do they have access to ZoS accounts? Somehow, I doubt.

Making and supporting MMO as huge as ESO demands great deal of resources. Do not assume that ZoS bathes in green and gold. (In fact, if you want to get philosophical, better to not assume. Ever, period XD ). The truth of the matter is: we do not know. And accusations without knowledge (i. e. cold hard numbers, i. e. proofs) are... frankly speaking, also ridiculous.

Dantaria wrote: »

I usually do not post on forums, but I would really like to do so this time. Because honestly? I find this topic a bit ridiculous and have a feeling that people have major issues with definitions.

SickDuck wrote: »

Yes the content is random, but you get a value for your purchase. On the top of that duplicate and unwanted items can be turned back to currency which can be used to purchase the exact item you wanted from the crates, bypassing RNG. Show me a casino where you get a guaranteed jackpot even after 10000 failed attempts.

Yes, thank you!

Crates are not a gamble exactly because they have what some other aspects of the game thoroughly lack: token system (gems).

Allow me to throw an analogy.

vMA is a gamble. Undaunted chests are a gamble. And when you enter these gambles, you pay with the valute much more valuable than any money: time.

However if I started a topic "Please, don't run vMA, don't support this horrid policy, don't throw your precious time in gambling", I would get a perfectly adequate response... "Hey. Gtfo. My time - my business".

But suddenly the Crates - much more forgiving system - get a hell. People who ran vMA for weapons and got them are praised - people who either got lucky or bought enough Crates to get enough gems for apex mount may be ridiculed or scorned upon.

If you are against Crates, 'cause gambling, but you ran vMA hundreds times to get the weapon you wanted - congratulations, you are a hypocrite. And you have lost much more than people who bought Crates. Money can be made again. Time can't.

And yes, I know, that people hate vMA system and want it to be changed... into something with token system, something similar to Crates, ehehe. So what? If it would be changed, will we still call it a gamble? Will we ask people to not participate? No.

Because it's ridiculous.

P. S. Also:

BlackSparrow wrote: »

So, if we assume that every single person at ZOS earns this extremely underestimated number, do you know how much they're paying a year in just personnel?

$10 million.

Thank you for this post!

I do wonder... All those people who say "ZoS makes enough without Crates, trust me"... Do they have proof? Do they have access to ZoS accounts? Somehow, I doubt.

Making and supporting MMO as huge as ESO demands great deal of resources. Do not assume that ZoS bathes in green and gold. (In fact, if you want to get philosophical, better to not assume. Ever, period XD ). The truth of the matter is: we do not know. And accusations without knowledge (i. e. cold hard numbers, i. e. proofs) are... frankly speaking, also ridiculous.

First the financial aspect. At the beginning of last year Matt Firor released an article saying that ESO has been a major success. http://massivelyop.com/2016/04/04/matt-firor-says-elder-scrolls-onlines-population-is-huge-and-thriving/
This game I'm sure was doing well and this move was motivated by greed.

Secondly, your response to rng is flawed. Running game content repeatedly, is not the same as running your credit card repeatedly. It's a system designed to tempt people to spend ridiculous amounts of money for something most would pay considerably less on average if they put in the store. They are ripping off their players and people are actually praising them.

We are seeing this appear in more games for a reason. People are paying so much money for so little effort on the developers, and that is why it's being adopted.

there's nothing in those crates you can't get by without. it's ridiculous players are paying more for the crates than the game.

what troubles me is that some players may be spending money they can't afford because they have some mental disorder that prevents them from making practical choices about money. they aren't spending money like that because they're rich they're doing it because they are compulsive.

[Edit to remove insulting content and bashing]

Everything that gets rewarded from a Crown Crate is purely cosmetic, so unless this game is just a fashion show to you there is no pay to win, you are not losing out on anything by not purchasing a crate and you'll have no advantage if you do.

However if you wish you contribute to a now free to play MMO by making a few micro transactions in the hope of acquiring some exclusive cosmetic mounts/costumes etc, no one will judge you.