The No PvP/No Killable Guards Method to Improve the Justice System

Nestor · March 2017

The Purpose of this thread is to discuss how the Justice System can be improved using only PvE Systems.

First and foremost for this thread, we are not here to discuss adding PvP to the Justice System. There are many other threads that discuss that, go use one of them if that is all you have to offer. And, no, that does not mean making the guards killable. Let's clear that off the table too if this thread is to have any hope of having a meaningful discussion.

OK, with those two things out of the way, the current Justice System is lacking in some ways with regards to consequences. Sure, we can make it harder to steal by just not investing in all the passives and or gear that makes it easier to steal. But, lets talk more about the aftermath if you get caught. I posted the following in another thread and I think it is a good basis to start a conversation about how to put some excitement into the Justice System as it stands now.

I have stolen and been seen by many a home owner and just stood there waiting for my bounty to drop (it was not worth using a pardon for) and only to walk out of the house right in front of the guard and I wave at them as I walk on by. Now, of course the bounty was not in place so the guard did not have a reason to accost me.

So, we could have a hard or harder core Justice system that is Opt In. The Bounties we accrue do not diminish over time, only if we pay them off at a Fence or a Guard or use a Pardon. Or perhaps if we camp at the Outlaw Refuge. The guards would not necessarily come into the house, unless the bounty was some level, but would wait to pounce on us as we leave. This would allow the RP of a Standoff. Or we could try and use the back door to get away from them. Perhaps use an indicator to let us know where the guard is, as we can't look out the windows. If the guards could chase us, we could open the dang door and get outside, but the guards could chase us outside too.

What are your thoughts?

Baronh2o · March 2017

I like it besides one caveat. If the thief makes it back to a refuge then the bounty starts to decrease but this is the only place the bounty will decrease.

Nestor · March 2017

Good idea about the bounty reducing while in the refuge.

WalkingLegacy · March 2017

Thieve Simulator 2017?

Not sure I get the point of this hardcore bounties in an MMO. It's a solo endeavor right?

When I get caught stealing I more than likely park my character wherever and log for a bit. Play a different game. Don't need a simulation when all I'm after is motifs.

Nestor · March 2017

@WalkingLegacy

That is why it would be an Opt in on the Bounty Reduction, and, it provides more RP activities. Your farming is still something you can do. Heck, if your farming right, your not going to get a Bounty anyway.

Skayaq · March 2017

I like it, could also be done by just having locked homes count as trespassing like the areas in the thieves guild and Dark Brotherhood questlines.

Tandor · March 2017

Thanks for posting this, there are plenty who acknowledge that the Justice System could benefit from being strengthened but who don't see the addition of PvP penalties to PvE crimes as the way to do it. I hope that even those who have previously lobbied for PvP penalties will accept that there are other ways of strengthening the Justice System and be willing to contribute their ideas for PvE enhancements accordingly.

I think the main thing for me is that logging out of the game shouldn't reduce either the bounty or the risk of being caught. In your scenario, for example, my immediate reaction was to speculate on whether the guard would still be outside waiting for me if I logged out and played a different character or did something else altogether before logging back in again say the next day?

For that reason I have already suggested in another thread that the bounty should not automatically reduce when you are logged out of the game. There should be different ways of paying off a bounty but time alone shouldn't be one of them!

I also like the idea someone else suggested in the other thread that a group of NPC bounty hunters could set out after someone with a high enough bounty. Unlike guards (who must remain unkillable to avoid the sight of dead guards all over Tamriel, as that is how some would get their jollies) bounty hunters would be killable, so if you got chased down and managed to kill them all and walk away then good on you, but be aware that the bounty just went up and with it the difficulty level of the next group of bounty hunters on your trail

!

That's just a couple of comments for starters, I'll respond further as I see other contributions and give it some more thought.

dpencil · March 2017

So...you want your bounty to stick so it will be more challenging moving about in towns, but you wait out bounties or clear them when you have them, and want ZOS to add something to the game so you can't?

You don't need the game to force your behavior, just chose to do it yourself. Use no pardons, never wait, just keep moving and stealing. Problem solved.

Everstorm · March 2017

What annoys me to no end is that NPCs, including guards, freak out when they see you commit a murder, but totally ignore the pile of fresh corpses of their servants and loved ones you murdered when they had their backs turned.

Betheny · March 2017

I hate this idea and any idea for increasing penalties for a solo activity that I enjoy as it is.

Please stop.

STEVIL · March 2017

Nestor wrote: »

The Purpose of this thread is to discuss how the Justice System can be improved using only PvE Systems.

First and foremost for this thread, we are not here to discuss adding PvP to the Justice System. There are many other threads that discuss that, go use one of them if that is all you have to offer. And, no, that does not mean making the guards killable. Let's clear that off the table too if this thread is to have any hope of having a meaningful discussion.

OK, with those two things out of the way, the current Justice System is lacking in some ways with regards to consequences. Sure, we can make it harder to steal by just not investing in all the passives and or gear that makes it easier to steal. But, lets talk more about the aftermath if you get caught. I posted the following in another thread and I think it is a good basis to start a conversation about how to put some excitement into the Justice System as it stands now.

I have stolen and been seen by many a home owner and just stood there waiting for my bounty to drop (it was not worth using a pardon for) and only to walk out of the house right in front of the guard and I wave at them as I walk on by. Now, of course the bounty was not in place so the guard did not have a reason to accost me.

So, we could have a hard or harder core Justice system that is Opt In. The Bounties we accrue do not diminish over time, only if we pay them off at a Fence or a Guard or use a Pardon. Or perhaps if we camp at the Outlaw Refuge. The guards would not necessarily come into the house, unless the bounty was some level, but would wait to pounce on us as we leave. This would allow the RP of a Standoff. Or we could try and use the back door to get away from them. Perhaps use an indicator to let us know where the guard is, as we can't look out the windows. If the guards could chase us, we could open the dang door and get outside, but the guards could chase us outside too.

What are your thoughts?

An opt-in equivalent to vet-mode/hard-mode any or all of theoverland content, not just injustice play, sounds like a great idea.

New NSFR (not safe for rookies) mechanics and tricks could be added, old ous shut downers.

Example, in several quest cases the guards on spotting you ring alarm bell and more guards show. That could e one thing added.

Also, someone else several someone else's suggested killable guard dogs added to the unkillable guards for speed.

Lots of possibilities.

BlackSparrow · March 2017

An interesting idea. It would require a lot of work for the devs, though, because you'd basically have to add secondary exits to most buildings (windows, perhaps, if there's no back door?) and I suspect adding windows you can actually see out of would require a LOT of reprogramming.

And as long as we're talking a dream of permanent bounties, can we perhaps throw in the classic "separate bounties by alliance" suggestion? So that you can be a known serial killer in one alliance while the guards in the other two think you're the Divine's gift to Nirn?

Kodrac · March 2017

Betheny wrote: »

I hate this idea and any idea for increasing penalties for a solo activity that I enjoy as it is.

Please stop.

Did you miss the opt in part?

I like it. I've been vocal about the justice system, as it is now, being pretty worthless and nothing but an annoyance. Most people just want to run around emptying chests without penalties. And, for the most part, that's what we have - the annoying bounty that can easily be removed. But for those that would like the challenge or the increased immersion into the game world we could opt into a more "refined" system. Currently, I don't participate because it's just annoying.

I would like to see some of the current parts of the system tweaked too. Like when I accidentally steal an apple when trying to access a guild trader and suddenly I'm the most wanted man (or Argonian) in all of Tamriel. That's an interface issue. Or if I go on a spree in Mournhold and evade the guards to get to a wayshrine and port to Wayrest and the Breton guards are there waiting on me. That's some serious INTERPOL action there. Why would Bretons give a rat's behind what I did in Deshaan and, even if they did care, how'd they'd know so fast. But that's probably too complicated and a pipe dream.